Tidbits Tiller

[Jim Ledger]

Snapped clean in two.

It's a real nice tiller that someone obviously took pains to make and it would be a shame not to try and repair it.

Here's the plan:

1-Cut the tiller at the break.

2-Bevel each side back to the paint line.

3-Bevel two Ash boards to match the tiller bevels, forming the clothespin.

4-Glue up.

5- Shape and paint.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010013-1.jpg

How's that sound?

[StevenBauer]

Joe said it was a little long, could you just cut the two parts of the clothspin scarphon the two pieces and not use any new wood?

Steven

[Jay Greer]

My own approach would be to find a natural grown timber either of white oak or acacia and shape a new tiller.
Jay

[Jim Ledger]

Jay, it's a bit curvy to find a natural sweep. My idea was to laminate a new one but Joe asked if this one could be saved. I'll give it a shot.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/paa3aa6843f3d7e128f2474de8246d917/f0564eb7.jpg

[Jim Ledger]

Joe said it was a little long, could you just cut the two parts of the clothspin scarphon the two pieces and not use any new wood?

Steven

The broken spot is just over the rudder and the profile has to fit the rudder top, so there's no chance of shortening up there.

[Thorne]

What about dropping a section of bronze rod in the joint, just to give it some extra strength?

[John B]

The scarfing will be fine for strength surely. If you were concerned you could add a third and 4th shallow scarf top and bottom after the side scarfs have been done.

makes a neat pattern.:D

and it'd put some timber back in with grain laminations the same way as the existing laminations.

[Figment]

Wouldn't all of this effort be better spent adding a wheel and an external hydraulic ram?

[John B]

Jim has a bench saw and its a square profile.
zip zap.

[mmd]

Before you go to any great effort, answer the question, "Why did it break there in the first place?" and when you are satisfied with your answer then ask the next question, "How can it be made to not break again because of that?"

I'd opt for a new tiller 1/8" thicker in breadth than the old one at the point where the old one broke, and made of laminations of same-species wood, but I am repeating myself.

[Ian McColgin]

Even with a perfectly reasonable cause that does not impugn the suitability of the tiller for normal use, I'd still be inclined to beef it up a bit. I can't interpret the pic to figure where the break happened, but if it's anywhere near the rudder stock, I'd give some thought to just making that whole end new. If it's more in the middle, a double cloths pin at each end of a new piece would work well and look cool.

I'd not weaken the tiller with a bronze rod or any such. Rod and bolts and such are used to build up rudders and centerboards where you have long edge grain. This repair is end grain and nice fit with epoxy is the way to go.

Sanding the epoxy in the feather edge can leave lumps. Well before it's too late, use a file carefully along the grain such that the flat surface can work on bringing down the epoxy without making a dip in the wood.

G'luck

[Hwyl]

It's just proof that Cat boats are an abomination. Poor tiller gave up its life trying to steer that dumpster with too few sails.


<Swiftly reaches for computers off button and retreats to workplace>

[Jim Ledger]

[quote=Hwyl;1643979]It's just proof that Cat boats are an abomination. Poor tiller gave up its life trying to steer that dumpster with too few sails.
quote]

As if any more proof was needed.:D

[rbgarr]

It's just proof that Cat boats are an abomination. Poor tiller gave up its life trying to steer that dumpster with too few sails.


LOL:D:D

"The benighted and great unwashed speak, but they know not whereof their ignorance lies. It lies within." - King George III

;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

First let me thank Jim for taking on this worrisome project. Jim I trust you know how important it is for us to try to save the existing tiller. One thought I had was in addition to the repair was to add "Wings" to the foremost bronze clamp that clamps the tiller to the rudder. It would add a brace to structurally support the mended tiller. I have a local metal smith who can accomplish the task. What do you think?

Oh and why is this thread not down in the bilge so I could have found it sooner ;)

Oh and why does this repair have to take place during one of the BEST WEEKS of sailing up here. Perfect weather this week. :(

Oh and Gareth :mad: you've lost your Tidbit privilege ;) Just kidding if I had you on board and sailed you down for a pint at Guinans you would be a convert to the cause that is the Catboat ;)

[Ian McColgin]

Sloops drool. Cats rule.

Actually, just yesterday a very cute little sloop - looked like LFH redoing a slimmed Friendship in about 20' - ate her way to weather past us like we were standing still. Only when we cracked off a bit so the waves didn't slow us so much and so that Marmalade's capacious sail could start working at its best did we get ahead again.

It's interesting to see how little advantage pure waterline length does in boats that are really close in size. With our 24' but with 6 tons displacement, the Marshalls - 18's and 22's - romp away from us and sloops like Wianno Sr's just vanish over the horizon. In this size, prismatic and sail area to displacement have more impact on speed than a small increase in waterline.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Since this is the repair thread I guess I should post a few pics of the break.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/IMG_0522.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/IMG_0535.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/IMG_0536.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/IMG_0540.jpg

[pipefitter]

It's good that the tiller broke. If it had been too strong,you might very well be trying to come up with a way to reinforce a broken hull or the rudder itself. Backing into barns doesn't count when considering the design strength of a tiller.

[Jim Ledger]

The tiller, pattern, hardware and two pieces of Ipe to make the repair.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010033-1.jpg


Five degree table saw cuts to establish the bevel
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010034.jpg


Waste sawn off.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010035-1.jpg


Jointer removing waste. Don't try this at home.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010036-1.jpg


Birdsmouth, ready to glue.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010037-1.jpg

[Jim Ledger]

Sanding the joint.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010039.jpg


No turning back.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010042-2.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

No turning back.
:eek::eek::eek: DAMN thank God I Trust you ;)

[Jim Ledger]

:eek::eek::eek: DAMN thank God I Trust you ;)


Joe, I sure hope this works.:D

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010043-1.jpg

[Eric D]

Damn Jim, that looks good. Like that joint trick. Can't wait to see it completed.

[Jim Ledger]

This might just work after all.:D

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010045-1.jpg

[Jim Ledger]

It's in the hands of the Gods now.

I'm going sailing. Finish it up in the morning.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010046.jpg

[dmede]

very clever bit of improvising. hope this works, good luck guys.

[Jim Ledger]

Improvising! whaddaya mean?:eek:

[John B]

Gee, I don't know.. Those scarfs could be 14 : 1 not 12.
I'd be very worried if I was Joe:D

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Jim I keep hitting the refresh button and thanks for the on site photo updates. I trust your work and am amazed that you can do all the carpentry, photograph is, post it for all to see and still have time to go sailing. Damn you deserve to go sailing, have a great day and thanks again. I look forward to tomorrows progress.

Joe

[dmede]

Improvising! whaddaya mean?:eek:

For a starter like me if it's not in a book or on the plans, it's improvising, ;). But I guess what I really meant was problem solving.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I still think this could be the end:eek: :D Yup Ole Jimbo he's wizard with wood , and computers and cameras , and ...............:cool: Ain'y cha Jim:D

What ???? :confused::confused::rolleyes:

[Jim Ledger]

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010048.jpg

[Jim Ledger]

Not quite a pool que but it's cleaning up alright, a little off center, maybe, but the paint will hide that.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010049-4.jpg

[rbgarr]

The question of how to finish off the tiller end looms:

I vote for a pair of hands ("Like a Good Neighbor") that can hold the ever-present IPhone and beer bottle.

Edited to add; Never mind, I see that it is the rudder head end of the tiller that's new. Darn. I was hoping for some silly, ridiculous fun here.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Lil joke Joe, :D back to my post # 6 this thread .

....we gotta remember it broke when :DJoe :Dbanged the rudder into the wall moving the boat :(

Paul, you sure are as good a ball buster as Jim is a carpenter ;)

[Paul Girouard]

Paul, you sure are as good a ball buster as Jim is a carpenter ;)

Thanks Joe :cool: I thought you'd catch / like that lil line :D

Jim might rather , and more correctly, be referred to as a cabinetmaker. And he sure is , a good one:cool:

[Jim Ledger]

Here you go, Joe. I'll give it a couple of coats of resin, then, y'on y'own.:D

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010050-4.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Hey Jim before you go crazy with the coats of resin have you made sure the bronze fastenings fit? There was a little notch in the aft end, look at the piece you cut off.

[Jim Ledger]

OMG...OMFG...OMG:eek::eek::eek:

Relax, Joe. Of course they fit.

However, as I don't have the rudder itself, there might be some minor....minor, fitting involved.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

So the nothc in the aft end is in place ??? Or am I going to have to shim it cause you made the end smaller ?

[Jim Ledger]

Joe, first you should say something like "Holy Cow, Jim!!!! That looks great! How do you do it?


THEN, you start peppering me with your old womanish worries.

Or, do I have to drive over there and put it on too?:rolleyes:

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010052-2.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

"Holy Cow, Jim!!!! That looks great! How do you do it?

Why would I doubt :(
Bowing down repeating "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy ;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

As Joe scrambles for the "I " phone , calls 911 , /411 for Jim's phone ###:D:D

Oh and I have you on speed dial and google map on my iPhone so no need to call for assistance to find ya ;)

And again THANK YOU THANK YOU

[pipefitter]

That came out great. Nice work Jim. Those kinds of repairs are fun to do.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Ya know now the big problem is the dam repair looks so damn nice I have a big debate weather to keep it bright and show it off or paint it and make it look like it never happened ;)

What I may end up doing is keeping it bright for the rest of the season, and just show off Jim's handy work. ;)

[Jim Ledger]

That came out great. Nice work Jim. Those kinds of repairs are fun to do.

Thanks, I love this kind of stuff.

[erster]

Jim your high standard of quality in your workmanship and your work is consistant to each and every project you take on, even when you are repairing dumpsters.:p

[This forum is really slow, even slower than me]:eek:;)

[Eric D]

Joe, first you should say something like "Holy Cow, Jim!!!! That looks great! How do you do it?


THEN, you start peppering me with your old womanish worries.

Or, do I have to drive over there and put it on too?:rolleyes:




Jim, that was one of the best replies I have ever heard!!!!! It was exactly what I was thinking when I was reading all of Joe's questions/comments etc. DAMN nice work, I would leave it bright since it looks so damn cool. As Paul says, nice reminder to be careful with that gal.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

For what it's worth, I think it would be a shame to paint over it.

Looks beautiful as is.

Had to save the fred compliment before poof its gone. :D

[Paul Girouard]

Had to save the fred compliment before poof its gone. :D


You fallin into Fred's trap , now he can delete , yet his words still remain. WWOWOWOOWOWOWO or some such scary sounding music :confused:for the mystery man only known as FredZ:D


Ya gotta give Fred credit he can track down all those posts and delete all trace , except his qoute's :) Gotta keep that number down eh Fred or the wife will get mad for all that wasted time :rolleyes::D

[Phil Heffernan]

Hi Jim

I've been late to the party, a most excellent solution to the puzzle.

The original tiller was a piece of history. The tear was a heartbreaker, but your skill snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Many thanks.

Imaginary friends come through again. God bless the WBF..:cool:

PH

[Jim Ledger]

Thanks, Phil. You guys going to be around tomorrow? Might be a nice day to drive up and see what Cold Spring looks like. Make sure everything goes back together OK.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Mr. Ledger will make a special appearance delivery to CSOH this afternoon, and we will install the wonderfully repaired tiller and GO SAILING :D :D :D

Photos to follow of course.



Hey have I mentioned yet what a great forum we got here ? :)

[Paul Girouard]

Mr. Ledger will make a special appearance delivery to CSOH this afternoon, and we will install the wonderfully repaired tiller and GO SAILING :D :D :D

Photos to follow of course.



Hey have I mentioned yet what a great forum we got here ? :)

Good thing eh Joe , I sorta remeber you had a lil trouble getting that hinge pin out last winter and was worried about you reinstalling that tiller:eek::D

Yes it is , or can be a great forum :cool:

Hopefully Jim was able to free his center board on Sea Rover , but maybe thats a project for tomorrow . Ask him about that when ya see him. How far is in , miles /or hours from LI to CS?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Good thing eh Joe , I sorta remeber you had a lil trouble getting that hinge pin out last winter and was worried about you reinstalling that tiller:eek::D

Yes it is , or can be a great forum :cool:

Hopefully Jim was able to free his center board on Sea Rover , but maybe thats a project for tomorrow . Ask him about that when ya see him. How far is in , miles /or hours from LI to CS?

Na I had trouble with the pin in the CB not the tiller. The tiller is easy its all open the only thing you need to worry about is not loosing the hardware, screwes or tools in the water while you are hanging off the transom :eek: ;)

Figure its about 3 hrs to Tidbit from Sea Rover ;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I was referring to the appt. door hinge when you lost that skelton key :D


Ahhhh :rolleyes::D

Ya know I'm honestly pretty good mechanicaly contrary to what some of you believe :D

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Ahhhh :rolleyes::D

Ya know I'm honestly pretty good mechanicaly contrary to what some of you believe :D

Sure Joe, sure, we believe you.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p50503004a36010c116b00fba82d0d324/e7dfa627.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Having dinner with Jim & his loverly wife Tracey . Just got back from a wonderful sail with the new tiller. Photos later

Posting from my iPhone :D

[Don Z.]

Status report Joe , from the I phone , tap , tap , tap.

Email me the photos I'll postum fer ya ;) (if that helps )

I want to know why he wasn't live updating with that iPhone... that should have been easy.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I want to know why he wasn't live updating with that iPhone... that should have been easy.

Sometimes I'm having too much fun in my real life that I forget about my woodenboat forum life ;)

But as promised here is the wonderful completion of the tiller tale.

Jim "The Legend" Ledger and his wonderful wife came to Cold Spring on Hudson and after being awed by the beauty that is the Hudson highland and our sleepy little town we set out to put Tidbits Tiller in place.

The dry fit looked good and "The Legend" lived up to his name.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0265.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0266.jpg

But with the heaving of the boat in the rolling wakes it was very hard to match 3 machined screws through the rudder and into the other side.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0268.jpg

But after a bit the bald man got impatient and out came the small mallet and Jim got a sharp chisel and we got it to fit just right.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0291.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0289.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0294-1.jpg

With the beautiful tiller in place we were ready to go for a little sail.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0298-1.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0299.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0296-1.jpg

[StevenBauer]

Nice! 'The Legend' - love it. :D

Steven

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0297.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0301-1.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0302-1.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0305.jpg

Talking to Steven Bauer

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0308-1.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0314.jpg

Tidbit's tiller works as intended.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0315.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0316.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0319.jpg

Sunset sail over we head towards the lights of the Boat Club
then to dinner.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0320.jpg

As Jim and Phil and I talk about all of you on the forum

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0322.jpg

[john l]

looking good joe, jim and phil.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Great job Jim (forum member extraordinary)!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

OUTSTANDING :cool:

One question for Jim , how sharp was that chisel Joe gave you ?? :D:D

For , ah , woodworker to real estate barron comparision purposes ;)

He brought his own ;)
Jim "The Legend" Ledger has a nice little wooden traveling tool box.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

NOT MORE RAMMING of the walls in the off season eh Joe :D:D

Ya know I learned a valuable lesson from this, ..... the tiller can come OFF in the off season ;)

[Phil Heffernan]

Hey Jim and Tracey

So great you made the trip up to visit. It was so, I don't know, 'appropriate' that you came to install the saved tiller, and stay for dinner.

It was a 'haiku moment ' on the WBF:

"The Legend made fast the tiller. No one could argue the twelve to one."

Mucho thanks, Ledgers...

[Jim Ledger]

Haiku, eh...hmmmm..

I fixed your boat

spun thread from precious little,

Had fun doing it

:D:D:D

[rbgarr]

It's a pleasure to see the butt end of the tiller left bright. That detail of catboat design, construction and fit, especially when installed as Win Warner imagined and put down on paper is one that I especially like. It shows the strength and geometry that must be built into that particular critical juncture of woods and metals.

Long may Tidbit sail!

[Jim Ledger]

I'd just like to point out something that I found interesting about this boat. you have to imagine the original builders making the rudder and tiller and cutting the hole in the transom.

The tiller is about 7' long and very S-shaped. The hole in the transom is the absolute minimum size that could possibly work.

Like some kind of puzzle, it took Joe about five minutes of trying and twisting to find the ONLY spot on the tiller which combined with the ONLY angle allowed the tiller to assume it's correct position..

Which makes me wonder, did they make the tiller first, maybe, and then keep enlarging the hole till they found the sweet spot. Because a pattern of the tiller would have fit where the tiller itself wouldn't unless it had the same cross section. It was that close.



http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_0265.jpg

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Haiku, eh...hmmmm..

I fixed your boat

spun thread from precious little,

Had fun doing it

:D:D:D

Jim, I'm glad your woodworking skills are more exact than your literary skills... I think a haiku is supposed to be 5-7-5 syllables :-)

Here is one of mine:

why call it 'brightwork'
when clearly it is done by
those who are not so

Great job, all of us who are inspired by Tidbit salute you.

[pipefitter]

I'd just like to point out something that I found interesting about this boat. you have to imagine the original builders making the rudder and tiller and cutting the hole in the transom.

The tiller is about 7' long and very S-shaped. The hole in the transom is the absolute minimum size that could possibly work.

Like some kind of puzzle, it took Joe about five minutes of trying and twisting to find the ONLY spot on the tiller which combined with the ONLY angle allowed the tiller to assume it's correct position..

Which makes me wonder, did they make the tiller first, maybe, and then keep enlarging the hole till they found the sweet spot. Because a pattern of the tiller would have fit where the tiller itself wouldn't unless it had the same cross section. It was that close.

Is it possible that the tiller was installed on the rudder first and then snaked in from the outside sideways possibly if needed as the rudder was installed? If it was a boat that was not a one off,they would have maybe figured out the hole in the stern on the prototype hull and ended up with what you have there.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I think the bench seats were not in when the tiller was snaked through the opening, that would make all the difference in the world.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Which makes me wonder, did they make the tiller first, maybe, and then keep enlarging the hole till they found the sweet spot. Because a pattern of the tiller would have fit where the tiller itself wouldn't unless it had the same cross section. It was that close.

3D CAD modelling would be my guess!:D:D:D

[Jim Ledger]

I think the bench seats were not in when the tiller was snaked through the opening, that would make all the difference in the world.


The seats weren't part of the original build?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

The seats weren't part of the original build?

No they were, I'm just thinking about the process and it makes sense that they built the structure and then added the seating after. But there is no way they could have had the rudder on then snaked the whole thing through the slot. In any event you can remove and replace the tiller, but you have a very small window (key) that will work. None the less what Jim notice is correct it is an interesting set up.

[john l]

i used to take tidbits tiller and rudder off every season for fear of damage with the exception of the last few years of ownership.
if i remember correctly you simply have to slide the tiller through sideways and diagonally and then rotate into proper position (albeit it helps if you place the tiller through before you fasten the rudder.) it was built like that and i think the intention was to keep the slot as small as necessary..you know holes..water..etc.
the seats were rebuilt but they conform to the original size and location of the originals if not the slotted teak design of the original seats and floor boards. i remember the center portion of the seat right under the tiller unscrews off the seat frame, but i don't remember if this helps with rudder fitting. i seem to recall taking it off seasonally and think it may have made for better clearances.

she's a great little boat. i like that brite tiller butt, but i'm not sure how varnish will hold up in that location. paint seems to be a better lasting finish there.

[john l]

hey it was built by herb baum in kennebunkport and i think all the detailing, comming, seats,tiller were built by mr.scholfeld at his marina shop in stamford ct. from what i've heard he was quite the yachtsman and demanded the best.