Belt Sander Recommendations [Archive]

nautiguy

08-21-2007, 02:01 AM

We are going to repaint the topsides of Sans Souci soon and I will need a belt Sander to remove about 20 years of tired paint. So I need a good belt sander and would like make use of the vast experience of forumites before I invest. Also, has anyone had experience with air powered flat sanders? I saw a couple of models and I like the idea of the light weight and low profile. That is if they any good for this kind of work.

Norm

JimD

08-21-2007, 05:34 AM

I've been happy with Makita.

pipefitter

08-21-2007, 05:53 AM

I can't imagine using a belt sander to remove old paint for the amount of belts alone because they get hot and clog about as soon as you start. You might try a heat gun and a scraper and then a RO sander.

JimD

08-21-2007, 06:49 AM

Use a coarse grit and the belt won't heat up and clog. But you have to be willing to then take the random orbital to the roughed up bare wood so it might depend on what the wood is like underneath the deck and if you're prepared to lose a bit of it refinishing. That's what I recently did with the fore and side decks to our boat. Small boat, though. Went faster than a heat gun.

Edited to add: Oops. I didn't see that you said 'topsides'. For some reason I was thinking deck only. It could still work quite well on most of the deck, but on vertical and possibly even overhead, hmmm...tricky.

Jim Ledger

08-21-2007, 06:52 AM

I'll second Pipefitters remarks and add that using a belt sander to remove paint from a hull will ruin the surface. They're too heavy to hold up and in such a position will be uncontrolable, digging gouges in the wood.

Gary Bergman

08-21-2007, 07:35 AM

We pack around a Porter Cable, a Skill, and a DeWalt belt sander for tough work. That said, for sure they are all too heavy, needing constant attention. The heat gun is much better for most of the territory removing paint. The belt tools are better shapers, IMHO...

JimD

08-21-2007, 07:44 AM

The belt sander is a lost art.

MiddleAgesMan

08-21-2007, 08:12 AM

Belt sanders are designed for working on flat surfaces where gravity and the tool's weight can work together. Removing several layers of paint from a curved and changing surface--from vertical to overhead--could be disastrous in so many ways.

There are a few specialty tools made for this type of work but heat and/or chemical stripping and scrapping is the best way to tackle this sort of work for non-professionals, IMO.

kc8pql

08-21-2007, 08:41 AM

If I had to sand it rather than using heat or stripper, I'd use a PC right angle random orbit sander with a 40 or 60 grit disk with a vacuum attachment and a soft pad. It has the power to cut fairly quickly and won't gouge or leave flat spots if you keep it moving. It's also light enough to hold over your head without breaking your back before your done.

http://portercable.cpoworkshop.com/images/product/large/97366.jpg

nautiguy

08-21-2007, 09:03 AM

I can see using a heat gun and finishing with a R/A sander, so let me ask the question another way. I seem to go through heat guns to fast, so suggest a good heat gun that will last the stripping of a 33' hull. And, what suggestion for a R/O sander?

Last, from the first post, any experience with an air powered flat sander?

Jim Ledger

08-21-2007, 09:15 AM

This is the best heat gun I've seen, Master Heat. Check Graingers. Always let the gun cool down with the fan before you switch off.

The sander and vac is a Fein. Pricey, but good.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010189.jpg

Paul Girouard

08-21-2007, 09:50 AM

That heat gun Jim shows is a dandy, sander and vac are great to . Festool makes a lil better one (sander) they have a dual-mode RO and Grinder setting.

http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=7&prodid=571540#

The 6” Rotex® RO 150 FEQ dual-mode sander (http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=7&prodid=571594)

http://www.festoolusa.com/upimages/RO150_288.jpg

I've demo'ed the tool, for what your talking about it would be a good sander, spendy but stout .

I found the grip a bit large and I have a big hand , but it's a lot of sander!

BTW for what I do I get the 6" "RO only" Festool if I was in the market again.

Lil lighter , fits the hand better but doesn't have the dual -mode option of
course sanding.

http://www.festoolusa.com/supplyImages/ofbp_ets1503eq_02_01.jpg

I currenrtly have a Porta Cable 6" RO which I've had for years also a good tool , I do not have a vac system for it.

Good luck , happy sanding!

Bruce Hooke

08-21-2007, 01:12 PM

For sanding topsides I'd use a big polisher with an 8" sanding discs on a soft backing pad. Used with care it will take off paint in a hurry but do a nice job of it and since the sandpaper is moving somewhat slower than on a belt sander the discs will not clog up as fast. In my opinion there is no need for random orbit action for this sort of work and in my opinion the work will go faster without it.

Jamestown Distributors has the polishers, the pads and the sandpaper.

Bob Smalser

08-21-2007, 02:39 PM

The belt sander is a lost art.

I much prefer the Porter Cable 3X21 belt sander. Lighter than the bigger ones and easier to handle smoothly. Much faster than pad sanders, too.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84781830.jpg

Belt sanding on both flat and curved surfaces without making gouges and flats is done every day all over the world, but takes the same amount of practice to master as does doing high-end work with a smoothing plane. The secret to these is developing a light, sliding touch letting the machine glide and do the work with no muscling allowed. Bear down on one corner of its platten and you make a gouge; bear down uniformly and you make a flat; allow the machine to stop and you also make a flat. Learn to handle it like a helicopter pilot caresses his cyclic. ;)

kc8pql

08-21-2007, 02:52 PM

Bob Smalser

08-21-2007, 03:13 PM

I think the basis of these different suggestions depend on the size boat each poster is used to taking care of. I'm pretty sure that after 6 or 8 hours of holding a belt sander over your head sanding a 40' hull a "light, sliding touch letting the machine glide and do the work with no muscling allowed" ain't gonna happen.

There's a time and place on that boat for my pad sanders, just like there's a time and place for my belt sanders.

But comments about ruining curved work with a belt sander ain't necessarily so. And when the time and place are right, the time and muscles save by the belt sander are significant. You'll do best having both, just take the time necessary to master the belt sander on something flat and unimportant.

And I wouldn't use either until I took all that paint off with a heat gun and scrapers.

JimConlin

08-21-2007, 03:32 PM

While there might people whose skill will let them do a fair job of stripping a boat with a belt sender, I amd certainly not one of 'em. I agree with the consensus that you're likely to do a lot of damage with a belt sander and should sstick to heat or chemical strippers, followed by a RO sander or soft 8" pad on a polisher for cleanup.

If you decide you want a belt sander for other uses, I have a Makita B9900 3x21 sander which has served well. I especially like that its shape permits clamping it to the bench on its side or gripping it, belt-up, in the bench vise.

Thorne

08-21-2007, 03:57 PM

I used a cheap Harbor Freight beltsander to remove marine paint from certain flat areas of my dory skiff, and it worked out fairly well if I was careful.
Had to rebuild the trigger switch twice due to dust contamination.

Chemical strippers didn't work very well, and I had no interest in scraping that many layers of paint off. Other more delicate or curved places I used a heat gun and scraper and that worked well with a lot of effort.

Be sure to wear heavy gloves and a good respirator, and as above, use a light hand and check your surface constantly. Give the belts frequent breaks to avoid overheating and tearing.

JimD

08-21-2007, 05:38 PM

Here's a job where the belt sander seemed like the right tool:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p150aaee437a937a4cd59d9a215f4be93/ea731ed1.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:viewExifData())

Its a small boat, the cabin was removed, and the fore and side decks were not very well faired before painting originally. The photo shows the work in progress where the paint is still on in the low spots. I can glide the beltsander lightly back and forth almost like a floor polisher, switching to a finer grit as sanding progressed. Soon I will post photos of the new paint job.

I chose a belt sander that can be clamped upside on the work bench. It's a 3 x 24. I had a 3 x 21 before. Like them both but one day will treat myself to one of the little mini sizes.

Bob Cleek

08-21-2007, 06:14 PM

Definitely heat and scraper, followed by a R/O. That's a lot of paint, though. Even the best heat guns (as above) have their limits. If it is really built up and you don't want to wait for it to soften two square inches at a time, go for a torch. These are much lighter than heat guns, as well, so they're easier on the user. You MUST wear welder's gloves and jacket, because the scrapings will be very hot and some will be burning. Otherwise, you'll have scars all over your forearms! A sharp scraper and a hosed torch is the mother of all paint striping systems. You can probably rent a gas torch from the local rental place. Run it off a five gallon propane tank. It takes a bit of practice, but if you work in bands from the bottom to the top, so the heat rises and warms up the work ahead of you, you can make some amazing progress with this method.

Stiletto

08-21-2007, 06:21 PM

Anything like this available in your area?: www.i-strip.co.nz (http://www.i-strip.co.nz)

Click on 'the system' they include wooden boats in their list of applications.

merlinron

08-21-2007, 07:08 PM

bob smalzer said it like it is.........

curved sufaces aren't a problem.......but not for someone who doesn't use a belt sander all the time. it is one too that you need to get to know how it feels.

the porter cables are good, as are the makitas.....any of the other brands are toys, the belt tracking mechanism wears out quickly most of them are too light weight... you want some mass with a belt sander, they're more stable that way and don't have as much tendancy to dig in on a corner of the platent as you slide it . i have an ancient PC 3x24 and a 25 yr. old makita 4x24. the makita is a tank.... heavy, powerful and solidly built. maybe a bit slow in belt speed for softer woods, but with a coarse belt, it will grind like nothing else will. it still runs and works as good as the day it was new and it's worn out several pads and platents.
as bob said, they are a tool you have learn a feel for. that's also one place the heavier tool will help.

one thing to look for when shopping is a low rear handle. the lower you can hold the machine the more stable it will be and the easier it will be to control. allot of the newer machines,...."the toys",
from black and decker, dewalt, and others have thier handles too high and the machine will tend to tip as you guide it, that and it's light weight make getting the "feel" for the machine almost impossible.

i suspect those who say a curved surface can't be done might have some of these "other" brands.

Jim Ledger

08-21-2007, 08:08 PM

Bosch makes a decent belt sander. Nice and low.

But if your asking about which brand to buy you might want to practice a bit first.

Paul Fitzgerald

08-21-2007, 08:21 PM

Its likely there is lead in the paint if you are wooding an old boat.
Dry sanding and heating are both good ways to deliver lead into your lungs.
Take care, use a respirator and good skin cover.

pipefitter

08-21-2007, 08:39 PM

Typically,when someone asks what is a good brand of belt sander to get,means they are not totally belt sander savvy. One able to do the job all day on a 30ish ft boat is going to require some shoulders. Then there's all the dust buildup that suddenly goes poof, right in your mug as it catches the motor fan just right. I have seen a lot of finishes on boats that it was obvious they were done blow and go with the "easy" and fast method. Cat faces and drum divots scream out at you once you put the primer and paint to it. Even someone with a bit of finesse only has to slip one time here and there to have a surface that looks bad throughout,even though there may only be a place here and there. Then we are fairing wood with the long board forever and spot filling divots,hoping to get them all. If the surface is sharp to begin with,sanding it properly and uniformly should fair the surface even more so unless one just happens to like that "distressed" look. I like improving the surface that's going to have my name on it if I am to go to all that work. If not,might as well throw some gook in the chipped layers,add another coat and call it good. Once someone undertakes wooding a hull,the usual intention is to improve upon it.
Most people that use a belt sander will cheat it trying to dress gouges and nicks while they are at it and it may look great then, but more often than not,gets 10x worse after paint.
The idea is to get it good now and take minimal prep to keep it that way from here on out. Nothing like scuffing a couple mils off a fair hull and ending up with a new hull every time.

JimConlin

08-21-2007, 10:33 PM

There are other questions, too, like what kind of sander will be a competitive racer.
More HERE (http://www.onlyagame.org/features/2002/04/beltsand.asp)

Bruce Hooke

08-21-2007, 10:42 PM

I suspect those who say a curved surface can't be done might have some of these "other" brands.

I think the bigger issue people were raising was not so much doing curved surfaces as trying to do curved surfaces that are vertical or overhead, as they would typically be on a hull. I don't see doing a curved surface with a belt sander as being a big deal. I can't imagine holding a belt sander up against a vertical or overhead surface for hours on end. They are just not designed to be held in that position for long periods of time.

pcford

08-22-2007, 02:34 PM

, too.

Belt sanding on both flat and curved surfaces without making gouges and flats is done every day all over the world, but takes the same amount of practice to master as does doing high-end work with a smoothing plane. The secret to these is developing a light, sliding touch letting the machine glide and do the work with no muscling allowed. Bear down on one corner of its platten and you make a gouge; bear down uniformly and you make a flat; allow the machine to stop and you also make a flat. Learn to handle it like a helicopter pilot caresses his cyclic. ;)

I have not owned a belt sander for about 20 years. They may have their place, but as pipefitter said that place is not to be found stripping the side of a boat. I have never seen a professional using a belt sander to do this. It is very slow and clumsy. And has been stated, the belt sander paper loads up almost immediately.

One would be better served to burn the paint off; if a machine is to be used, a soft pad/disc sander would be far, far preferable to a belt sander. The speed of sanding is proportional to the speed at which a particle of abrasive will travel across the material to be sanded. On a random orbital sander it will travel at 4 miles per hour, on a belt sander at 12 mph and on a disc sander at nearly 200 mph. Yes, it is possible to totally screw up a hull by clumsy technique with a disc sander. But same is true with a belt sander. If a boat has not been wooded down in 20 years, there is a good chance that it needs to be refaired if not refastened. In this case the disc sander is superior to burning off the paint.

For whatever reason, the disc sander seems lighter than a belt sander...maybe because you can see the rapid progress. For purposes of wooding a hull, belt sanders are slow, clumsy and inexact. Don't do it.

Bruce Hooke

08-22-2007, 03:09 PM

I think the reason a disc sander feels lighter is because it is designed to be held up to a vertical face, so the ergonomics are much better.

pcford

08-22-2007, 03:27 PM

I think the reason a disc sander feels lighter is because it is designed to be held up to a vertical face, so the ergonomics are much better.

Disc sanders work ok on flat surfaces as well, though. Clearly belt sanders work best on flat surfaces. However, since I haven't had one in 20 years, I do think they are a tool you can live without.

Lew Barrett

08-22-2007, 04:07 PM

I'd be very cautious about putting as belt sander to a hull for the reasons described. Even an RO will take some skill to master if the hull is to be fair. Bob Smalser's cautions about how to use a belt sander are equally useful in using an RO. Festool makes a great unit; get the 5mm EM150 and a hard pad (they make the pads in a couple of hardnesses). Finish by hand blocking the hull; use a board at least 12 inches long; even longer is better. If you are careful with the torch you can use it, but I am more comfortable with an RO. There's no easy way around this one; it will be a lot of work, but the more prep you put in, the better will be the results. If you take your time and fair the hull well, your next paint job will look even better. It's a process.

Bob Smalser

08-22-2007, 09:42 PM

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that there's another major tool in the quiver folks aren't using for various reasons. Sounds like another tutorial would be useful.

Thorne

08-22-2007, 10:01 PM

Please, Sir, can we have some more (tutorials)?

;0 )

Seriously, it sounds like it would be a big help. For one, don't know how I got through life before I got a belt sander -- very handy tool for all sorts of things, particularly if you don't have a stationary sander or grinder.

nautiguy

08-23-2007, 10:27 AM

Paul Girouard

08-23-2007, 11:30 AM

The hull is carvel planked with caulked seams, and maybe someone could give me some advise about how to use heat and a scraper without pulling out to much caulking.

Simple , practice! Any that comes out needs to go anyway, if it loose pull it out , or when in doubt , pull it out! Pay me now pay me later type stuff.

If you burning the wood , badly, not just a lil surface charring your lingering to long , how about that:confused:

few3

08-23-2007, 12:10 PM

By far the best belt sander I own. It never bogs, tracking is unbelievable, and it is built like a tank (FYI, Her torque and weight will make you buff:D). Look around, they pop up on E-bay and other areas often, and for small coin.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2668/skill449py3.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9246/skil449frontdi4.jpg

pipefitter

08-23-2007, 12:39 PM

You guys have pretty much convinced me that the belt sander is not the way to go. I'm leaning towards heat and a R/O sander.
I love the idea of the infrared heater, but since this is a one time job I'm not likely to spend $1,000 for the tool.
The hull is carvel planked with caulked seams, and maybe someone could give me some advise about how to use heat and a scraper without pulling out to much caulking.

You are going to pay somewhere. Abrasives add up quickly. What is the condition of the hull as it is now? Is the paint that is on it now in rough shape. What about the hull itself? Does the hull itself need to be wooded or is the wear just in the layers of paint? Is the hull out of fair due to obvious less than careful paint removal in it's past? This all depends on what you hope to achieve finish wise as the end result. If it's a work boat and built somewhat roughly to begin with then you have more options to be a little less careful. If the boat started out as a neatly done beauty ,then the more careful approach is called for.

Scraping may be slow but if it's time you have then the savings could be seen in cases of sanding sheets.The process of heating and scraping or wooding takes a good amount of perseverance but the results are usually worth it. Another consideration might be to get a bid on a "reputable" professional wooding it for you with the result you desire and you do the painting yourself.

With the details you provided in your initial post,I just assume the boat to be a gem initially, so as to to respond on the safe side.

nautiguy

08-23-2007, 11:54 PM

pipefitter

08-24-2007, 12:43 AM

Paul Girouard

08-24-2007, 12:51 AM

There is NOTHING wrong with visible seems :)

Seems like he should try to make his seams sort a not show don't ya think?

;)

pipefitter

08-24-2007, 12:55 AM

Ya hawk lol
regardless. . .tie goes to the editor ;)

Sort of is good too :)

Except in the case of drywall. Don't want to sort of see those.

Varna

08-24-2007, 01:02 AM

I agree with what Bob and JimD say about belt sanders- very capable tools all around but require a fair amount of usage to gain feel and develop the right muscle-memory for the touch/art of it.
I have 2 P/C's,3x and 4x24 and they go and go. My first was a Makita in '79 and it ground divets since the platten leading edge never remained true and flat. Maybe they are good now.
Irregardless of wether your wooding with heat, belt, or disc grinding it will all be about the same amount of work. Given that you say it is workboatish I would get a 8" disc SANDER- variable speed is important so you can set it to the slowest speed and not heat the discs too much which will heat the paint and clog the discs faster. Do Not get a Polisher if you go disc- too much RPM. I have a Milwaukee 8"sander very happy with it. I would go with 24x to hog the layers away and keep the discs clean. Get the belt sander gum rubber cleaning sticks and use them often if the discs begin clogging. Use a light touch and let the disc's sharpness do the cutting and keep the discs as cool as you can. This a fast method per Sq Footage, Heat and scrape is slow and tedious- maybe some like it as it can be meditative I suppose. You can learn and apprentice so to speak below the waterline if you are doing the whole hull.
The only prob with disc/belt/machine sanding will be dust control. My understanding is that Commercial Yards now require, and are legally required, that dusts be controlled so if your working in a SF yard that may be a factor. I see some big sanding tents now, and many/most yards no longer allow do-it-yourselfers. But that sounds like not a factor.
If you use heat be aware of the fumes= respirator req'd. With the sanding dust ditto, but MAYBE the 3M charcoal dust mask can be used instead of the clunky cartridge mask.
Any pics? SF Bay always great to see....
EDIT add-36 grit discs may be more forgiving. 24x is very fast but very open as well=hard to clog up.

Paul Girouard

08-24-2007, 01:07 AM

Seams in drywall seldom go unseen. Seams like I caught ya in what seams to be a rather odd speelin mistake eh:D You usin a speel cheaker :D

Chris Setzler

08-24-2007, 01:58 PM

The Bigfella

08-26-2007, 01:59 AM

I've always liked this concept - and may just get around to building one some day:

http://www.rutuonline.com/html/long_boards.html

pipefitter

08-26-2007, 02:31 AM

Good link. That is an ambitious fellow. Built his own tubing bender and stuff too. Not to mention the boat.

Pericles

08-26-2007, 05:17 AM

Not too expensive at £395. Thanks for the details, Nautiguy and Chris Setzler.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,386353-3,00.html

http://www.silentpaintremover.com/

Pericles

Stiletto

08-26-2007, 05:34 AM

That was a good link, it side tracked me for quite some time.

jimmy

09-04-2007, 12:49 AM

Great pun Paul.
Sans Souci is really built like a work boat. The seams are visible and the hull is "mostly" fair. I guess your right, what is loose will come out and then I will get busy with hammer and irons.

I also like Bob's idea of burning the paint off. Maybe that's the way I'll go.

None of your caulking should come out when scraping. It should be about a third of the planking thickness below the surface of the planking. If any seam compound comes out just put in some more, no hammer and irons required. If any of your caulking (cotton or oakum) comes out you should seriously evaluate whether the boat needs to be recaulked since it shouldn't be near the surface and shouldn't come out easily (unless the boat has dried out).

George Ray

09-04-2007, 08:01 AM

For WOODING topsides the beltsander does not seem like the best first choice. In the hands of an expert it can do the job but it is unforgiving and every slipup will probably show in the final finish. I agree with Bob S. that it can be used but disagree with what seems to me to be an unstated implication that it is 'the right tool for the job.' A mechanic with a life time of experience can successfully use a hammer to loosen and tighten nuts but that doesn't make it the best/right tool for the job. Bob is right that the beltsander can do elegant/delicate things but if the goal is brute force through 20 years of paint it will be challenging for someone learning to maintain the soft subtle touch while getting dust in the eyes and tired muscles are twitching. If the beltsander ends up being the fine finish tool of choice I suggest first removing the bulk of the thick paint with heat/scrape or even chemicals (ugh).

Having said that the scraper and heat gun requires practice, but the many small gouges from the corner of the scraper are much easier to fair out with the first putty after priming, and the scorches from the heat gun are easily hidden.

Random orbital is a sweet tool and Fein and Festool dust extraction is wonderful. ( I use Fein 6") Even it can leave nasty footprints but less so than the belt sander and it is generally much easier to hold and maneuver on a vertical surface than a belt sander. Usually you want to run the belt with the grain and that will be very tiring to achieve over the whole surface of the hull with changing heights and angles. Random orbital won't allow for 'with the grain' sanding but it will be an order of magnitude easier to cover large areas smoothly and quickly and do so multiple times with progressively finer grit abrasive.

After wooding topsides with a belt sander most folks probably will need the help of an experienced bodyman with bondo and an airfile.

nautiguy

09-04-2007, 10:20 AM

I like the idea of RemovAll as used on the house in Winchester as shown in This Old House. The only question is how it will work on Interlux Brightsides polyurethane I know there is at least one coat on the topsides.

I also like the idea of using an air sander with a long platen to fair the hull. This two step process may be the best bet.

We are still in the planning stage because there are serious logistical problems in living aboard and doing this kind of work. It will be several weeks before we haul, and when we do I'll post before and progress pics.

pipefitter

09-04-2007, 10:36 AM

Brightsides is just a modified alkyd paint. It seems to like all the same methods you would use with any glossy alkyd,including exterior house paint.

pcford

09-04-2007, 11:42 AM

I also like the idea of using an air sander with a long platen to fair the hull. This two step process may be the best bet.

An air sander...at least the common one that are used in body shop are not the best way to fair a hull. For the best job you will need a longboard. (AKA The Misery Whip) Maybe six ft. long or so. You will also need one or two of your strong and not very bright friends. About the hardest work in boat restoration. Been doing it for what seems to be forever this summer.

Lew Barrett

09-04-2007, 11:15 PM

An air sander...at least the common one that are used in body shop are not the best way to fair a hull. For the best job you will need a longboard. (AKA The Misery Whip) Maybe six ft. long or so. You will also need one or two of your strong and not very bright friends. About the hardest work in boat restoration. Been doing it for what seems to be forever this summer.

I have to agree with you here, though for a satisfactory result (meaning you're the guy doing the work and not getting paid) a shorter board in the hands of a careful worker can be very satisfactory. But any way you look at it, doing a hull with a belt sander is not for the faint of heart, or as a rule, the extremely critical.

nautiguy

09-05-2007, 10:40 PM

The BigFella posted a link that shows a modified air file that I like for fairing. I think that using the RemovAll, using a a large sander/polisher for what is left, and then finishing with the modified air file will do the trick. I'm not trying to restore a museum piece. Sans Souci is a Block Island Cowhorn that was built to her heritage as a workboat and I am more interested in keeping her in good shape than in making her bristol.

Here are some photos that I uploaded to Picasa, not the greatest but what I have.

http://picasaweb.google.com/smallballweb/SansSouci

Arrrgh, I can't solve the broken link problem! Help!!