Amateur building advice needed

[Ajax]

I have been researching the possibility of building my own daysailer for a while now; reading up on any and every boatbuilding book on which I could lay my hands.
The net result is that I know now a lot more than I did at the start and I am a great deal more confused. The only thing that I am sure of is that the boat cannot be carvel planked because it would need to be stored out of the water for up to six months at a time. This leaves cold molding, strip planking, or plywood as the only choices. I am a pretty good jack-leg carpenter, and I have a passable collection of hand tools in my shop so any of these techniques are within my skill set.

I would welcome any experienced opinions about the best way to proceed; I would even welcome some inexperienced opinions as we may have a lot in common. I will be working alone mostly, and I have only limited access to specialty boatbuilding woods.

Any ideas on my best course?

[Sailing-Randy]

Welcome to the club! :D We're all there now or were at one time. Keep reading here every thread that seems relavent to you. I startedd two years ago and built a "first" boat. Now I am looking for a second. Start small unless you know you're committed enough to finish a big one. It seems persistence is the number one quality you need. It held true for me that it took twice as long to build as I thought. From the tone of your post I'd say start small and look for something that excites you.

I started by going the cheap route and I am now ready to pick up the quality of materials a bit. I used 1/4" ply with fiberglassed with polyester resin. I like what I did, but like I said, next time I'll step up a bit.

Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask this astute bunch of opinionators any question!
tongue.gif

[JimD]

Welcome! I'm just finishing up my third little boat. It is hard chined, plywood paneled, sheathed in fiberglass/epoxy, not polyester resin, and I'm very happy with it. There are a lot of designs around built this way. It is a relatively quick and trouble free way to build an attractive, able, and sturdy boat. Strip plank and cold mold are very labor intensive, worth the effort, some say, for the hull shape they can provide. Perhaps it comes down to how much time you'd like to spend sailing it as opposed to building it. Good luck, jimd

[mmd]

For your first boat do a small, simple boat. Ply with a 'glass sheathing would be my suggestion, and keep it to around 10-15 feet. The "Little Moby" by Wittholz would be a good candidate. I have copies of plans for several small ply boats, rowing, sail & power, from old "MotorBoating" magazines that I would be willing to share with you, if you so desire. This will be a good training project, and the finished product is a suitable kid's boat or dinghy for the next boat. This way it will go reasonably fast so you get pleasing results in short order, and mistakes are not too costly. The skills you gain are readily transferrable to the next, bigger boat.

[ 05-08-2002, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: mmd ]

[doorstop]

Me? When I arrived on (in?) this place was going to build a little clinker putt putt, none of this sailing stuff! Boats with sticky up bits for storing the old bed sheets and stringy stuff... ridiculous, for the romantics and slow people!
Then it was a cold moulded type big putt putt thing.... I have asked all sorts of questions, mostly a bit dim I think, and I have had all sorts of answers, all polite, I have lurked and lurked, and finally (?) it looks like a Hartley TS22 for me.... and there's room for a little motor on the back... oops! stern, transom, flat bit!
So be warned Jax, you have entered a very interesting, informative "place" where you may end up motoring not sailing, sailing not motoring, rowing or paddling .... whatever happens the blokes on/in here will keep life interesting for you! Enjoy and learn, I certainly do.

[wolfietuk]

Greetings, I went the plywood stitch and glue method, a little stitchand glue sloop (16'). I am not displeased with the results so far. I just put the first layer of ply on the cabin sole. But any nice boat will take time. I am at a little over a year now. I only get to put in a couple of hours a week. Do not get in a rush, and dont get frustrated. What kind of boat are you looking for? Big enough for kids, camping, forays offshore, or just lazy trips around the lake?

Rick

[imported_Daniel]

Hey Ajax, welcome to the site. You will not find a better place for advice or ideas. I just finished my first boat and the experience was great. I am already looking forward to my next one. Lots of sites out there to look at designs, just surf through the many web pages and find one you like, buy some design cataloges, or go visit Noah's in Toronto, they have been helpfull to me as well as supplying most of my material. Check out their website at www.noahsmarine.com/Canada/canada.html (http://www.noahsmarine.com/Canada/canada.html)

Good luck, have fun, and keep us posted.

[cs]

Welcome Ajax:

I, too started with S&G and have done 2 so far. I'm also working on a plywood "Box" construction boat and kinda working on a strip canoe.

For my next project I'm considering doing a wherry in lapstrake or glued lap. From what I understand these will live on a trailer quite well. I believe that a lot of lifeboats were built in lapstrake for the simple fact that they weren't kept in the water.

Anyway you go it will be fun and rewarding.

Chad

[Beowolf]

Hi Ajax

Been a while since I've been in here, but I always enjoys posts like these. I too am on my first boat. (Odd, I started about the same time as cs. What does that say about me?) What everyone has said is good. I think that if time is of any importance, then you may wish to check out the stitch and glue route as you can build a great boat in this fashion in a reasonable amount of time. I'm working on a strip-planked daysailor. 16 feet didn't seem all that big when I was laying it out, but it certainly seems so now. Strip planknig is great in that allt he pieces are small, relatively cheap, and somewhat easy to handle alone. However, if there is a lot of shape to the hull, (something that I didn't know until I started building,) then they become just as difficult to manage as anything else and you have about 10x as many piece to wrestle with. If you have patience though, it works out just fine.

Find a design that will inspire you to continue working on it.

Hide as many costs as you can under "incidentals." SWMBO is far less likely to notice those. ("Hey dear, I bought those trim pieces that we needed at LL Johnson's. Oh that? That's just a piece of plywood that I needed for some other stuff.")

Be wary, when SWMBO figures out your gig. She usually leads with a couple of quick jabs to the midsection, but if you bring your guard down, she comes home with the left cross. :eek:

Keep us posted.

Jeff

[Dan Cavins]

Hey Ajax, you're in trouble now, in a habit you can't get out of. Thank God it's so much fun. As I always warn I am not an expert for sure. But I was you not long ago. I read the books and became more conflicted/educated. Heck, now I look at them once in awhile. Anyway I am building a 23' sharpie now. It is full of imperfections but still going well. That's the way it is for us newer guys, perfection is elusive. It is also not manditory. You will get to know what you can get away with. You will be amazed how much you learn by doing, it's the only way. Just do it! I will agree with the others - start small. I could not build the boat I am working on now without having built my kayak first. It's the mindset as well as the skills. Go simple and keep checking in. The Forum has proved invaluable to me. It's fun, get going! Dan.

[Garrett Lowell]

Hi Ajax, and welcome. I was very recently in the same boat as you, so to speak. You may want to consider building something small first, and then work your way up. Or you may want to just jump in with both feet and two fists. I chose the first selection for myself. But whatever you do, take your time at this stage, to be sure you choose what's right for you. That will be the most difficult part of the process. Good luck!

[Albie]

TRY A NUTSHELL PRAM OR A SHELLBACK FROM THE PLANS-NOT THE KIT. THE WITTHOLZ BOAT IS A GOOD ONE TOO.

THE ONLY THING YOU NEED IS A BELIEF THAT YOU CAN DO IT AND THEN JUST START--DON'T THINK ABOUT IT-JUST START AND THEN YOU'LL BE HOOKED.

[Tar Devil]

One more thing you might try... build an exact scaled-down version of the boat you wanna build, using the same techniques for the big'n. I did that with a Diablo once. Helped me understand the process before making the same mistakes on the full scale version.

Phil

[mmd]

David Stevens - a noted yacht builder here in Nova Scotia - once told me "Book knowledge is good, but what you really need is hand-knowledge. The only way to get hand-knowledge is to use them, so get a pile of wood and turn it into a boat."

[NormMessinger]

Renew your library card and get away from here fast. Boat building is a sickness. It may seem innocent enough and harmless in the beginning but a stripper canoe can lead to another which can lead to a stitch and glue boat, to a couple of glued lapstrake canoes, to a 20' gaff rigged cutter and miscellaneous other small craft scattered about the grand daughters and grand neighbors.

Oh, Hi, Ajax. My name is Norm and I'm not yet recovering.

Can't add much to what has been said above except check out Iain Oughtred's lapstrake designs. And, on the other end of time to build, Sam Devlin's stitch and glue designs.

Joy to you.

--Norm

[Joe Sengl]

Ajax, I beg you to heed Norm's great advice. I have tried to quit after the first few hulls, with the hope of returning to the family group and their choice of simple entertainment. Until yesterday. I was enjoying a good sanding session. I am the big boss here. I am lord of my shop and I build whatever I want, whenever I want. Suddenly, TWOTH peeked in the shop, glanced at the hull with her good eye, declared it as "hers" and ordered me to build another one. I blinked, she was gone. It was over quicker than a Mike Tyson fight. I'm thinking she just effectively doubled the boatbuilding budget. Somebody has spiked her sport bottle. Hot Dang! I'm free to grab the short list and order any plans, tools and lumber I may need. I'll try to quit after this next one.

[Scott Rosen]

I've never known anyone to break the habit once they started. It's a terminal illness.

I echo the recommendations to check out some glued lapstrake designs. Grey Seal comes to mind as a nice pocket cruiser/daysailer.

[Ajax]

Wow!
Well, the first thing I learned in this forum is that your job is something that you squeeze in around boatbuilding. Right?
My thanks to everyone for the information.
I know that when I first thought of building a boat, visions of a 110 foot J-type sloop with teak throughout danced in my head and I thought, heck 12 to 18 months should just about do it. However, the consensus in the forum is start small and learn the ropes first. Perhaps the Sam Devlin designs would be a good beginning. Anyone have any experience with them?

Daniel,
Thanks for the tip about Noah's Marine. It sounds like you have considerable knowledge of their products. I read somewhere that marine plywood should conform to something call "British Standard BSS 1088"; but according to the Noah's web site, there are two standards in stock and I'm not sure if I should use anything other than the BSS 1088. The prices are certainly higher for it. What are your thoughts?

I will check this forum regularly for updates.

Again my thanks.

[NormMessinger]

We, the two adult? sons and I, built Sam's Egret. When they came home over spring break a few years ago Lynn, I think, suggested we build a boat. I had the mast build ahead of time and all materials assembled. We started building on the first saturday and went sailing the next. Paint and varnish came later.

I also have the plans for his Winter Wren. Both sets of plans are complete and easily followed.

--Norm

[Wild Dingo]

And there is one addicted man!! an extreme case of woodenboat building addiction if ever there was one! :D

Now Ajax mate.. HEED THE WARNINGS... leave... go play with the car... go fishing... go surfing... go buy a pushbike... go.. ohhhh to heck with it your not gonna take any notice are you! tongue.gif ... Hi and welcome Ajax... Im Dingo and Im a confused bewildered woodenboat addict...

I am not going to counselling... I am a counsellor... I just need a woodenboat and my life will be complete... wood cutting starts just as soon as I can drag myself away from all the boatporn sites these jokers lead me too!!... say sometime in the next few months would be good! :rolleyes:

Take it easy
Shane

[rickprose]

all this talk about addiction and googe is fine and good, but i'm confused by the initial query.
are you saying that the boat can't be carvel planked because you'd have to keep it out of the water for six months (because of it being carvel planked), or because you'd have to keep it out of the water for six months (as in, you wouldn't be able to use it for six months of the year)?
either way, it's wrong to think that carvel planking would stop you from building a real boat and learning some actual boatbuilding skills, as opposed to chopping up some plywood and covering it in hazardous chemicals.
i live in maine, where almost all carvel planked boats spend 8 months of the year on dry land, and while keeping a boat in the water year-round may be ideal, it works out fine to store them on the hard most of the year, provided they are properly laid up and covered.
the only time a carvel planked boat might be contra-indicated, as the medicos say, is if you plan on trailer-sailing it, then you've got some shrinking/swelling problems that a lapstrake boat might be the answer to. and, though you might not know it from this forum, lapstrake boats can be made from actual boards, too, and held together with something other than glue.

[ 05-09-2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: rickprose ]

[Carlsboats]

With due respect to all the advisers who have already imparted their wisdom, I think a lot of new boat builders start with the wrong question. First, ask what kind of a boat you want to end up with. There is no point in building a developed-shape, plywood hull just because it is easy work.
The question is, is that the boat you want?
A round-bottom boat may be more work, yes, but as a self-described jackleg carpenter, you should not let that stop you.
Out of the water much of the year? Don't let that be the decision maker. Both strip planked and lapstrake hulls let you deal with that problem, and as noted by earlier postings, lots of carvel planked hulls spend most of their lives on land.
My personal favorite is strip planking. It is easy to build almost any shape, there is little waste, and it is pretty easy to build a very strong, light, fair hull. The only negative, to me, is that it takes a lot of time to do the planking, though I am not sure it really takes longer than carvel. It is certainly easier than doing a nice lapstrake hull, which requires careful spiling to look right, and more rivets in the laps than anybody wants to count. (On the other hand, there is lapstrake 12' Alden "X" Dinghy in my basement on Block Island that my son and I built more than 40 years ago, all varnished inside -- still tight, still looking great.)
But what suits me should not figure in your decision. The question is, what suits you? I say, pick out what you want, and then figure out how to build it. Carlsboats

[TomFF]

Look at several types of daysailers (not building methods) and begin to dream. How big of a daysailer do you want? How many will you have on board? Wanna race or not? Look at several designs. Choose one. Then buy the plans. Afterwards change your mind and fall in love with another design. Buy more plans. Change your mind again, buy more plans... well you get the idea. Eventually you'll find a design and start dreaming about it. Count the financial cost. Realize it will take longer than you expected. It will cost more too. Make sure your marriage is good shape. Take over the garage long before the project begins (so no blame will be put on the boat). Then decide which building method is best for that particular boat.

Anyway I'm dreaming about #3. Unfortunately I simply can't do it yet. But hey i've only bought two sets of plans :D . I still have plenty of time to decide.

[imported_Daniel]

It sounds like you have considerable knowledge of their products. Ummm, thanks for the compliment, but alas tis not true. I ended up purchasing my plywood (marine) from a friend who owns a lumber store. It is a personal decision as to what standards you wish to build your boat to. The designer of my boat said exterior fir ply could be used, but also said marine was better. A search through the archives on this board will yield you much discussion on the topic of plywood, much more experienced people who's opinions are surely more relavent than mine. I have only built one boat (well a 17' canvas over cedar kayak 20 yrs ago, doesnt count, as any info about that has since been relegated to the cob-web section of my brain)so I will leave this to the wiser. Overall though,the people at Noah's were very helpfull, as were the people on this forum.

[Albie]

It is certainly an addiction. I haven't built a boat in two years (rebuilt parts of one last year) and yearly maintenance but I've got plans for five more boats waiting for me once I reroof the house, put on an addition, rebuild the deck the tree landed on,build those wedding presents I owe,reside the front of the house after I install a new window, et cetera, et cetera. My third boat took up 20 hours of each day thinking about, planning, and doing that I forgot that I had a wife--a few years later I did not have that wife any longer. Now I've got a new wife and she laid claim to my fourth boat. AWWWWWWWWWWw, forget all of that--just get me my Jamestown catalog and point me towards Boulter's. I'se got to loft that Catspaw.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

IM a novice boat builder now and did the same as you a lot of book knowledge can be a bad thing. I finally settled on the Stevenson design Pocket Cruiser http://www.stevproj.com/ they make 3 models the Cruiser is a Catboat style they have a Weekender, a 19ft Gaff Rigged Sloop that's been around for like 25 year was once on the cover of Popular Science. And the Vacationer that's a bigger version of the Weekender. All of these boats are Plywood flat bottomed fiberglass and epoxy coated. There is great support on a numerous forums http://byyb.org/starboard/index.php & http://www.messing-about.com/cgi-bin/webbbs_config.pl to aid in construction details. Other boat builders may look down on a plywood box boat but if your goal is build a trailer day sailor that's simple construction with some nice salty looks, in my opinion much better design than some of those Bolger designs ( OHHHH I know Im gone hear it again from the Bolger Apostles out there) I have one word fro ya's MICRO eeeeek. These boats actually look wonderful when completed check out Phil's Weekender if you need to see how well they can be done http://www.pragdata.com/philboat/MainPage.html
Stevenson (http://www.stevproj.com/)