This sharpener is DULL

[kevinwal]

Yes, I'm talking about myself. I finally gave up and ordered some sharpening jigs for my plane irons and chisels because I'm tired of the wavy bevels and uneven cutting edges my tools habitually show when I've tried (and tried and tried) to do it myself.

I've used every technique ever published save that which requires mechanical assistance, and I'm curious if there are any hard-core builders here who sharpen tools without such assistance. If so, how in the HECK do you do it?

[NormMessinger]

Practice practice practice.

But truth be told, when I want a really really sharp new edge I get out the sharpening jigs. Touch up in the middle of a job is free hand.

Practice practice practice.

--Norm

[wolfietuk]

For chisels and irons there is no substitute for a slow turning wet wheel.

Rick

[Greg G]

Check out this site. Lee Valley has some great tools and there sharpening systems are second to none. I do a little timber framing and with a diamond wet-stone and 1500/4000 grit combination stone and buffing on a cotton wheel with their green polishing compound I consistently get an edge I can shave hair off the back of my hand.I would try one of these guides as a start. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=33001&category=1,43072,43078&abspage=1&ccurrency=1&SID=

Good luck
greg

[Billy Bones]

Pardon me, all, for taking this opportunity to do a little venting...

Horsesh*t!

The old timers didn't have fancy computer-generated-laserguided-sharpening-gizmos, did they? The old guys who keep a small hard arkansas stone in their overalls know what they're doing. Just touch up the edge before it really needs it. Keep angles consistant, but don't obsess about it. Most tools don't care if your angle is 32deg or 28.5 deg, and most craftsmen have their preferred edge style anyway. As for curved edges as on carving gouges, try stroking the edge sideways along the long edge of the stone (layed out left to right on the bench before you) while you roll the tool. If the edge is badly lobed, then flatten it by running it perpendicular to the stone, then hone away the bevel to the angle you want, checking often so you don't make the edge irregular again.

I'm particularly sensitive to the sharpening issue because I've fallen into the trap in the past and no amount of $ and gizmos has helped me one bit. The entire sharpening market is designed to feed off the insecurity and inexperience of the would-be woodworker. Ditto sandpaper. If everyone knew how to hook a scraper worth a flip, 3M stock would drop like a sharp plane on concrete. Hell, I read a while ago about a guy who made a scraper out of a joist hanger. He was so proud of himself, thinking no one had ever done anything like it. 'Throw out your sandpaper,' he said. No kidding, and how do you think brothers Goddard and Townsend,et al, managed to cobble together their homely creations when shark skin was the closest thing to sandpaper available?

[cs]

Just a quick reply. Keep in mind I can sharpen enough to shave, but I'm not a real expert.

I was sharpining one of my pocket knives last night and had been working it on my Arkansas stones. I have a hard stone and a soft stone. Well I got the knive to shave but wasn't pleased with the edge so I worked on it some more. I must have flattned the angle and thus ruined the edge. Well in my frustration I grabbed on of my smaller whetstones. It is about 2-1/2" long and maybe 3/4" wide. Just one of those old gray cheap whetrocks. After a few swipes with this stone my pocket knive was sharper with it than with my expensive stones.

Moral of the story: You can spend all kinds of money and sharpen knives many different ways, but the best way is the one that works for YOU.

Chad

[Bob Perkins]

The Tormek sharpening system is great IMHO. In terms of just doing flat items (plane irons, chisels) it may be a bit too much. But if you venture outside of those tools and sharpen carving tools, turning tools, kitchen knives, axes, surface planer blades, etc. It does a great job.

If you see one in action, it is too simple - a 90 RPM water wheel. It's really the jig system you are paying for. I used a few different methods, but couldn't get turning tools right.

Now I have a bunch of old sharpening stuff I don't use because I didn't get the Tormek first.

Problem is it's pricy, with all the jigs, ~$500-$600 range.

It may not be for everyone, but the only complaint I ever hear about them is price - not performance. Just like the Fein Multimaster, which I know I'll end up begrudgingly buying someday smile.gif

[Alan D. Hyde]

$500-$600!!!!!

Why not just BURN your money?

Good heavens, you can buy a pocketful of perfectly good whetstones at a garage sale for $1. Fifty cents if you dicker a little.

Just amazing...

Can't we do anything now without an EXPERT, and a SYSTEM???

Alan

[ 10-04-2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Hughman]

Aw, c'mon, Alan, don't be shy- tell us your opinion!
;)

[ 10-04-2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Hughman ]

[Tomcat]

I pretty much can do it any way you name. Like a lot of folks 20 years ago I got the jig thing happening, but was never satified with the speed. In general I would say that I go back and forth, but I haven't used a jig in years. But if I couldn't set the endge i would true up my stone and get out a jig, or in some situations a grinder and get back to zero.

Mostly I use sandpaper. My new shop is only moderately heated, and I figure I might freeze a water stone, so I tried the oil stones again, and then sandpaper, I just haven't gone back.

2 Points:

Don't feel bad if you find it hard. It is is hard. If you are off the tiniest bit, you will blow it, or round the edge, so this is a basic, but fine skill. If someone says how great they are, well they well may be, but sharpening comes in all kinds of grades. It is harder to sharpen a Japanese chisel, because to get it where it can be (what else do you need it for?) takes finer grades, and more strokes. So you have a bigger chance of blowing it. But you only need a tool like that for fine, hard work (hardwood, or predominant edgrain or something). The same with a fine finishing plane. They can be sharpened to diferent levels of perfection. It needs to be better to get a shaving of 4/10 000ths, than a big chip plane. So just saying I can sharpen it razor sharp is just one level. Getting all the way with every type of tool in the shop isn't something you are born doing. I say practice, by which I mean, go into the shop and work on it. Woodworkers are often too focused on projects, set aside some time to work only on skills.

Secondly, If you can't sharpen, not only won't your tools support better work, but you may not have the skills yet. It all comes together. If you can't keep a bevel perfectly flat on a stone, how can you work the chisel flat on your work, without a jig?

I get a kick out of woodturners who have all these jigs for sharpening: What is the difference between holding a tool on a spining object to shape the tool, or shape the object? Not much. That is why tools like plane are a lot of fun, the who process could be jigged, so everyone can get the to work, up to a point. But it still pays to lear the reall technique.

When I was first faced with drywall corners, I tried to float it with a knife. If I couldn't get it, I would bring out the cornering tool, and get it done. But there are places where the "jig" won't work, so by using both, eventualy you can use either where they make the most sense, or either if you have to.

[Bob Cleek]

I'm with Alan and Billy! Truer words were never spoken. All that sharpening baloney is just another gimmick to make a buck off the insecure. There is more crap on the market to sharpen stuff, it's amazing! Numero uno, the only thing you have to shave with is a razor. How long do you think a "razor" edge is going to last on a chisel? Not long, my friends. Ninety percent of your wood cutting will end up being done on much less sharper an edge than that. A couple of licks and that "razor edge" is long gone. It's about efficiency. A damn double sided carroborundum stone should keep your tools in good shape if used properly and often enough.

Funny this should come up today. I was just talking with a friend who runs a boat yard. He was lamenting the fact that he couldn't find good wood butchers. He says there's nothing around but these "damn wooden boat school graduates." What's wrong with them, I asked. Well, he explains, "They're all perfectionists. It takes them an hour just to sharpen their tools." He has a point. You can get so hung up in the little details that you end up forgetting why you are there.

Here's a trick for those who might be interested. Find a GOOD sharpening shop and bring your tools to them when they need grinding and shaping. It is really inexpensive. I have acquired a few nice tools over the years (old iron) and every time I come in, my guy ooos and ahhs over them. Makes me feel better about knowing they are respected and will be treated well. Today I picked up two 100+ year old adzes I had shaped and sharpened. I got them (with good handles) for $5 at a garage sale. It cost me $12 to have them shaped and sharpened. Now, to KEEP them sharp, all I have to do is give them a lick now and then when they need it. (It ain't like I'm going to be using them a lot, but they'll be fun to play with, if I don't put 'em into my shin... I'll stand in a couple of nail kegs until I get the hang of it.) Grinding bevels on chisels without burning them and so on can be tricky. You don't want to ruin a good chisel learning on it. Setting and sharpening saws takes a lot of experience, too, and is cheaper and easier to have a pro do. Let the pro "set up" your edge for you and then just keep it sharp. That's the ticket. Forget all those cutesy articles on "scarey sharp." Nobody shaves with a straight razor anymore anyhow.

[Dan Irvine]

Having spent considerable time honing my skills just out of pure interest in a sharp blade I can humbly offer the following: Angle is everything, and it depends on the thickness of the blade and the intended use. Single sided blades are in a league of their own. If you can find The Razors Edge by John Juranitch who owned a company by that name you will have the bible of SIMPLE sharpening methods. He is, or was, the World Double Bladed Axe Shaving Champion and his company had contracts with large meat packing houses. It is a very simple matter to make your own jig out of a piece of hardwood for the angle you need for that particular blade then chuck it or burn it when you learn the spot on your thumb that corresponds with that angle as the jig will slow you down considerably. Be carefull with wheels unless you have a large one as no degree of hollow ginding is acceptable. Many of the frustrations experienced when sharpening plane blades are due to people who think it necessary to "touch up" the flat side when they are done, creating a ski rather than a blade. I am surprised no one has brought up the primary edge, secondary edge question. Simply put, you must grind the primary edge, at the correct degree for your blade and job, to a point where a very fine burr is created on the opposite edge, then turn over and repeat. The secondary angle is obtained by elevating slightly and using less pressure on a fine stone. This is your cutting edge. Hone with steel or ceramic to perfection. Provided you start with the proper angle and work from there this method will make maintenance of the edge less time consuming. So: forget the fancy oils and just use water, research your angle and make a hardwood jig(s) for your proper angles, and practice practice practice. If you are just maintaining your own tools you don't need any fancy jigs.

[paladin]

I still have the two large arkansas oil stones my grandfather taught me to use....a little worn..but they get the job done.

[Scott Rosen]

I'm with Cleek and those guys. The tool only needs to be sharp enough. I use a couple of diamond stones, small enough to fit in my pocket. When the bevels on my chisels and plane irons look out of true, and I want to get them perfect, I use a cheap plastic jig that I got for under ten bucks. I have used sand papers stuck to a flat surface, but I still like the diamond stones best. For less than $50 dollars you can get the sharpening tools that will last you a good long time.

[Jack Heinlen]

Yeah, what Cleek, Billy, Alan et al said.

I don't remember this being that much of a problem when I first learned. When I set aside my tools I had a high speed grinder(for use only when the edge was dinged or the original bevel had been lost. As Bob said, don't go grinding a special piece of steel until you get the hang of this. I bit of water in a can next to the grinder to dip in, and work SLOW), and two Arkansas bench stones, a soft and I think a medium. I worked in a shop with Jap water stones and they were okay, but fussy. I prefer the natural stones

I think a few things might help. Use a large enough stone secure to the bench so it doesn't slide around. A few nails or strips nailed to hold the box works fine. I learned to use a sort of 8 motion to work the entire stone. Hold the tool canted, in other words off the center of the stone when looking down. It's a natural angle with one hand back and the other close to the edge. You use your hands and arms as the "jig". Rock the tool until you find the bevel and then I sorta use my entire upper body in a back and forth, holding that angle as close as possible, but relax into it. As in sawing where you want the saw to do the work, here you want the bevel to guide the hone. You may be trying too hard! You do that till you raise a slight burr on the back, turn it over and polish flat until the burr is gone. Test on the thumbnail, a good edge will catch at a fairly low angle(maybe 15 degrees). Unless the blade is a mess, the entire process, from squirting a little thinner on the stone to wiping it off at the end shouldn't take more than about five minutes, lots less for a touch up.

I remembered something that helped when I first started out, and that was a concave bevel ground in the edge. You can really feel when the bevel is flat to the stone. But practice with some tools you don't really care about if you're doing any high speed grinding, and once you have the hang of honing you don't need to grind tools very often at all.

Last thought, I've bought modern steel that was just fine, but I've also bought some that was junk. I've got a set of Marples chisels that are dull as soon as you use them.

Anyway, that's what worked for me.

Good luck,

Jack

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Yep Jack, a concave bevel is great for feeling the angle. I have a hard time getting a good concave bevel freehand on the grinder(bad eyes and bad karma, I guess), so I made a fixture that bolts to the table of my radial arm saw. I use a fine 6" wheel and adjust the arm and tool to get the right angle, then fire up the makeshift grinder and pull the wheel over the tool. Takes several (many) passes to get it down, and I don't take much of a cut in order to keep it cool. After that, I unbolt the tool and use the stone. This thing works good for plane irons and keeps the edge straight.

Rich

[Jack Heinlen]

And a few more notes on grinding. You can go faster and take off more steel until you get down to the edge. The thin steel at the edge will distemper much more easily. Go slow! If you burn it you have to grind beyond the burn and start all over again. And again, once you have the bevel you shouldn't need to re-grind good steel for a long time.

[WFK]

Kevin;

I think I'll chime in just because I think I have one more thing that may help. Personally I don't think any jig of any kind, at any time is nessesary, period. When you start out on the grinding wheel use the support that usually comes with the grinder as a way to support your chisel. I use a white wheel to help control the heat. As you begin to move your chisel from side to side you'll notice the sparks dropping down off your work. When the wheel starts hitting the very tip of your chisel the sparks will change and begin to come off the face of your chisel. After doing this a few times, you'll be able to just run your chisel along without the need for a support, but rather feel the chisel fall into the hollow grind made by the wheel itself. When your grinding is done and you need to get your edge on the stone, feel your chisel actually seat on the stone, go in one direction and stop, pick up the chisel and set it back down, feeling it seat and push it along again, this way no chance of rounding anything off. after you've done this a few times lay it flat on the stone and take care of that burr thats reared it's ugly head on the back. You're good to go!
Hope this helps!

[T.KAMILA]

WFK got it right! Where most people got it wrong for speed any way is don’t get caught up on the stone thing. Get rid of the irregularities from the wheel and go to a tight buffing wheel. Did everyone hear that a BUFFING WHEEL. Present the tool to the wheel as if it was a grinding wheel turning away from the blade or you will dull the edge quicker than it takes to think about it. (Meaning don't let the cloth of the wheel wipe across the edge because you are not holding the edge tangent to the wheel.) If done properly it will finish that edge to razor sharp quicker than it takes to think about it. You are now off working and not fussing around with sharpening. You can go back to that wheel about two or three times before you have to return to the stone. You can return to the stone about two or three times before you have to return to the grinder.
Note: To set up get a wheel and a shaft adapter and an old quarter horse motor. Shouldn’t cost more than twenty bucks. For the perfectionist out there you are right, it is not a perfect edge but this is not about a perfect edge it is about getting a good edge and getting on with it. Don’t knock it until you try it.

Tom

[ 10-05-2002, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: T.KAMILA ]

[Dave Hadfield]

Nope.

If it isn't perfectly sharp, it's dull.

It's really simple. Use the Lee Valley roller on some kind of decent stone, followed by their green compound on a hard buffing wheel.

This is fast and razor sharp. Quite literally.

It is so convenient in a shop that you touch up your chisel or plane very often because swiping it across the wheel is so easy and so effective. This became very clear to me when I was turning sheaves out of jotoba. That wood is so hard that the difference between razor sharp and sort-of sharp was crystal clear. I now find that using a cutting tool with only a fair edge is irritating.

Lee Valley is the most creative, innovative tool company I've come across.

Do a search on this stuff. It's been covered at considerable depth. It'll help you out.

[Bob Perkins]

LIKE I SAID, a Tormek isn't for everyone AND it is pricy..

But - have you tried it?? I'm guessing NO. So if you have never tried one, don't knock it. Putting a fingernail grind on a turning tool is a P.I.T.A freehand. The Tormek always does a consistant job and never burns your steel. Dealing with planer blades (12") w/o sending them out, I like. Regrinding skew chisels evenly, I like.

I've done it the water stone way, and still use them for final honing sometimes - I prefer a wet wheel and jigs. It's faster for me.

I like to try a new tool, decide if it is good or bad, then factor cost in. Cost alone is not a reason to decide if a tool is crap.

[Bob Perkins]

oh yea -

I agree with the Lee Valley tool recommendation 100%.

For plane irons and chisels, it's excellent!

[cdragon]

My two cents-I posted a question a whiole back about sharpening stones, along these same lines-now, I am not a master carpenter by any stretch, but I can use most tools power and hand without much personal physical damage and sometimes the projects even come out OK - I just wanted to be able to sharpen stuff pretty well...
After looking at all the advice, posts etc, I broke down and coughed up a very reasonable sum of I think about $50 to Lee Valley for a combo waterstone-I already had a diamond stone bought at a lumberyard that I could never really get a sharp edge with, and with that for the rough stuff and the combo waterstone even I can now get a pretty sharp edge, and I think I am getting better at it all the time (see practise, practise) So, for your average schlub who does not intend to get all anal for "razor sharp" on everything but is not happy with a few swipes on a paving stone, this "system", if indeed it must be called a "system", works pretty well, not alot of dough and is pretty pleasant - maybe this whole thing just depends on how fussy and anal you are to begin with anyway-then fit yerself into an appropriate range of sharpness and away you go!