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eastern270
01-10-2005, 10:33 AM
I know this discusion has been brought up in the past but what I would like to know is if anyone has strip planked a hull using gorilla glue and then cover the outer hull with glass and epoxy. If so how where your results. Any ideas would be appreciated.

TimothyB
01-10-2005, 10:54 AM
Gorilla Glue has nasty stuff in it, so if I was using a lot of it, I would be wearing protective gear (VOC mask and suit/gloves)

Second, it is not a gap filling glue (yeah, it SAYS it is.. but it is not), so your joins would have to be very good. This translates into more time for better joinery.

Third, it's not waterproof.

Given these items, if I wanted to use a non waterproof glue for strip planking, I'd use an industrial, construction grade, 'harsh environment' adhesive in the tube, for something like $2 per tube. There are good gap filling brands, and though not rated for marine use, if you are encapsulating the hull in epoxy/glass it shouldn't matter.

Also, if I was using non waterproof glue, I would use good quality, ring shank nails and leave them IN. smile.gif

Pulsifer-Hamptons are built with no glue at all, nor any epoxy or glass. Just excellent joinery and strip planking. Goes to show what you can do if you have years of boatbuilding success behind you! This is featured in WB's compendium, 'Planking & Fastening'

NormMessinger
01-10-2005, 11:06 AM
Define waterproof? Some say epoxy is not water proof. Anyway, books on stripper construction say water proof glue is not necessary.

That arguement aside, GG is fills gaps with foam, no strength, as Timothy says and is really messy. The Chemist claimed it could be a serious health hazzard on the skin. I'd use Titebond II or III.

willmarsh3
01-10-2005, 11:19 AM
I'm very happy with using West epoxy to strip plank my Elver. Then I finished it bright with West 207 special coating hardener followed by varnish. I wonder if the epoxy would stick to the gorilla glue. I wouldn't think of using anything else.

Will.

Don Maurer
01-10-2005, 05:21 PM
I used gorilla glue and also Franklin's polyurethane glue under epoxy and fiberglass when I built my cedar strip kayaks. Of the two I preferred the Franklin because it was easier to sand and the bubbles inside the skin were smaller. The stuff is messy, but it sands easily. It is quite expensive because so much foams to the surface. If I build another stripper, I will probably use Tightbond.

[ 01-10-2005, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Don Maurer ]

swanko
01-10-2005, 05:30 PM
I have a strip planked Atkins double ender. 1-1/4 x 1-1/4 mahogany, nailed 12" oc with 10d galvanized finish nails (toenailed). Minimal double sawn oak ribs; seams bedded with white lead. 39 years old, stiff and solid, doesn't leak a drop. she has been as far as venezuela (sp?) and was even driven ashore at Ocean City Maryland during a gale.

strip planking has impressive strength and durability.

Bob Smalser
01-10-2005, 05:50 PM
If I were gonna do a strip-planked hull thick enough to nail I'd be happy with white or red lead paint between.

Without those nails I'd consider poly but lean toward epoxy as it can be had for the same price and has stood the test of time poly hasn't. Moreover, poly needs high clamping pressure and perfect joinery when epoxy does not. School is still out on "waterproof"....hasn't been rated for below-waterline use yet.

Aliphatics like white and yellow glue? Not me. What a goshawful mess to repair after a few decades of neglect where the fabric and epoxy has been penetrated allowing water to mush up those joints. Once a joint is contaminated with aliphatics, it can't be glued over well and new wood must be spliced in. I don't even use it in throwaway forms because there hasn't been a bottle of it in my shop for 25 years.

The thought of some repair or restoration guy down the line cussing my work like I've cussed some of my short-sighted predecessors just doesn't set well.

[ 01-10-2005, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

leftish
01-10-2005, 06:02 PM
How about strip planking with TightBond and just painting the sanded hull without any epoxy/fibreglass? I planning on constructing a canoe yawl and this is what I would like to do.

RonW
01-10-2005, 07:18 PM
Swanko - good solid information on traditional strip planking. You may be the only person that I have actually heard say that their strip planking has white lead paste between the strips.
Thanks for the info.

Traditional strip planking is not given it's just dues by the small builder , plenty use a variation of it in canoes, but not in larger boats.

[ 01-10-2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: RonW ]

paladin
01-10-2005, 07:57 PM
If'n ya ain't got time (or money) to build it right....when are ya gonna have time to rebuild it?

Kermit
01-10-2005, 08:13 PM
What about good ol' powdered Weldwood?

eastern270
01-11-2005, 06:09 AM
thanks for all the replies. everything mentioned is what has been going through my mind. I should have mentioned that the design (not even begun yet) is a 22' power boat design #141 from Gartside. I think that being said maybe would have gotten slightly different replies. I was planning on stripping it with spanish cedar over temporary forms. Thanks again for the replies and I'm sure I will probably have more questions to post when I begin to loft.

Billy Bones
01-11-2005, 07:36 AM
Several well proven UK designers recommend polyurethane glue (Balcotan?) for strip planking then sheathing. I personally can't stand the stuff and would rather use epoxy. And for a power boat I would give serious consideration to epoxy over poly.

With polyurethane glue you MUST cove-n-bead your strips to get worthwhile adhesion. With epoxy it is merely a really good idea.

Paulyboy
01-11-2005, 08:45 AM
I've used GG for my Adirondack chairs for 5 years. Several observations- if you use the glue with a mist of water as it says (moisten one part of the two being joined), the foam has large bubbles in it. If you let the moisture in the wood and the air cure the glue, it gets very tight with extremely small bubbles and does become a gap filling glue. My chairs (I've made and sold about 30 pairs of them) ,sit outside most of the year in open areas, exposed to water, but not immersed in water. I guess that makes it water resistant, not waterproof. GG is sandable and planable. I used GG in a 12 foot flat bottom canoe I made five years ago, plywood with fiberglass over it. No reaction with the epoxy, no problems with the water resistance of the glue. The boat sits out all year upside down when its not being used. I wonder if it's different for boats that are in the water all year.

Tonyr
01-11-2005, 10:07 AM
This really does seem like deja vu all over again! No-one has yet mentioned PL Premium (a gap filling polyurethane construction glue). Those of us who have used it seem to find it entirely satisfactory for strip building, provided only that it is clamped tight. I use screws rather than nails to pull the strips together, which helps. It seems only common sense to encapsulate the resulting hull with epoxy/fibreglass, which is pretty well standard practice these days, anyway.

My own tests show that for general boatbuilding purposes, especially when properly epoxied, PL Premium is a good, easy to use glue. For all practical purposes it is waterproof. To see a work in progress with these methods go to www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2133480086 (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2133480086)

Tony.

RonW
01-11-2005, 12:32 PM
GLUE choices in strip planking may be far more critical then one would be lead to believe, by most posts on this board concerning the subject.

Just about all posts concerning strip planking eventually ends up mixing several methods into one conversation. The size of the strips as well as to whether the strips are of a hardwood or softwood seems to be constantly being ignored.
Wood does exspand and contract, there by creating pressure. Steve Redmond's essay on strip planking, plainly shows that hard woods glued with a hard glue such as -epoxy-resorcinol-titebond-elmers-weldwood- has been known for the whole side of the hull to exspand and contract as if it was one board, there by literally splitting open at the greatest pressure point, usually the chine area, or forcing the planks off of the transom. Wouldn't this be a mess.Therefore hardwoods are not recommended for strip planking.

Size does matter.Canoes and dingys that use 1/4inch thick strips, and then the inside as well as the outside is covered in glass cloth, the cloth is what is holding everything together.The glue is unimportant, any glue whether it be epoxy- titebond or good old brown elmers will work just fine. Exspansion and contraction is minimum at most and therefore does not create a problem.

Move up in size to the 22 footer that eastern270 says he is about to tackle and things change.Most plans will call for 3/4 inch thick planking for traditional planking. Then if you wish to laminate 2 layers of veneer over the hull, the specifications on the planking is reduced to 1/2inch with 2 veneers of 1/8 inch to end up with a 3/4 inch thick hull. Why? To reduce the exspansion of the strips, there by putting presuure on the veneers. 3/4inch may still be small enough to use a hard glue with out excess pressure, although this matter can be debated.

Move up in size of boat and size of strips to one inch and greater and things change again.
Reread swanko's post.1-1/4 x 1-1/4 strips, nailed with 10d galvanized trim nails bedded with white lead,39 years old, stiff and strong and doesn't leak a drop. He didn't say, but I would bet that it is about 35 feet long and has no fiberglass cloth outside or inside. If you do a search on this board, you can find more testimonials concerning this with even a lot larger boats, one was 45ft, and another was 50 ft. these posts are in the 2000 and 2001 era.
As the planks get thicker they need to be allowed to exspand and contract, and that eliminates the hard glues.
There are examples if you look hard enough, of boats in the high 20 and 30 foot range that was built in the traditional style in the 70's and 80's with larger strips of course, and epoxy was used as a sealer between the planks.These boats are being sold for a song and dance. Why? Because they have cracks and splits all over them. The owners answer is to fill the cracks with epoxy of 3m5200, sand and paint and sell it quick. The problem is not the construction method, but the glue that was used. Yea epoxy is the culprit.

If you are really interested in strip planking, this is as good info as you will find.
http://www.sredmond.com/strip_plank.htm

If strip planking ever becomes really understood, it could be a boom for the home builder. All the old sweet round hull designs could be revised. Even the hard chine and vee bottoms can be strip planked. Atkin has a article on this. And in a solid traditional strip planked hull, there is no need for fiberglass cloth outside or inside, again Atkin refers to this in one of his articles, as it is wholly unecessary and just creating additional labor and cost, not to mention that it is now possibly a problem.

Strip planking is cheap, you can buy any krapt from your local lumber yard, as long as it is of a proper species of wood, and rip it into square strips and apply. For the price you pay for strip planking lumber, if it is knotty, you can throw half of it away and still be 1/3 the price of premium straight-clear-vertical grain boat lumber.

Square strips are superior to strips that are almost twice as wide as they are thick. Because with square strips you can position the strips so that the grain is running flat sidewise and nail through one grain layer after another grain layer instead of putting a fastener between the grain layers wanting to split it. Also lumber will exspand and contract twice as much with the grain then it does across the grain, so with proper grain orientation you actually reduce the pressure on the side of the hull. There is referenced by the mcnaughton group as well to this grain orientation on his board.

There I said it, that is my understanding of the method. Hopefully this will lead to better and more informed discussion on this method,instead of the discussions constantly ending up as to what is done on canoes.

Tom MacNaughton's explanation as to why square planks are better then rectangular planks.
http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/_disc5/0000010f.htm

Tom MacNaughton on wood choices for strip planked, I have tried to tell people that southern yellow pine is a good choice and readily available in this part of the country.
http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/_disc5/00000151.htm

[ 01-11-2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: RonW ]

Tonyr
01-11-2005, 01:06 PM
Ron, the implication of your comments would appear to be that any structural elements inserted into a strip built shell should be more or less flexibly bonded to the hull, say with 5200 or a flexible epoxy, rather than with fasteners, so that the bulkheads etc could move enough with reference to the hull shell. Sound right to you?

Tony.

RonW
01-11-2005, 01:23 PM
TonyR- No don't sound right to me.
I say follow glen-l's instructions and fasten with fasteners any bulkheads and so forth.
My comments are referring to the adhesive between the planks only. The planks become one board from keel to sheer if glued hard. And there is too much confusion in strip planking as you go from canoes on up the ladder in larger size boats and larger size strips. That is where the methods need to be defined and not mixed and matched.

Tonyr- I totally agree with your selection of P.L.premium, gorrila glue has no business in a boat, anywhere for anyreason.

[ 01-11-2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: RonW ]

Venchka
01-11-2005, 03:14 PM
Mechanical and durability properties aside, the price of Gorilla Glue would exclude it in my mind.

Thanks Ron! Your expert dissertation is properly bookmarked!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

John Blazy
01-11-2005, 03:21 PM
TonyR and Ron,
Its about time someone mentioned PL Premium. If you do a search here, you'll see that I've vigorously defended PL in the past, but the only way anyone will truly see the light, is if they pop the whole three bucks and try it (not ten or more for 5200). As a former adhesives chemist with two patents in polymer science, and buying PL Premium PUR by the case since the late eighties, not to mention half my boat is made with it, I can truly say that it is the greatest all around adhesive I've ever used.

Greater adhesion and cohesion than GG, will bond aluminum, plate glass, steel, concrete and melamine (Formica) with total weld-like strength, yet flexible enough to allow stress absorption, rather than crack.

Like Bob S, I only use titebond for interior, solid wood to solid wood only joinery. End grain? Heated epoxy or PL. Never PVA's- waste of time.

Bob Smalser
01-11-2005, 03:25 PM
While we are discussing what Mr Redmond wrote about strip planking, let's not omit what he got wrong.

Honduras Mahogany, Black Cherry and a few other hardwoods are significantly more stable than many commonly-used planking softwoods like Doug Fir. Honduras Mahogany, if fact, rivals the best cedars for stability and would be a good choice for a contrasting strip or two in a strip-planked canoe or small boat.

Whether a glued-up panel splits or not depends on where it lives and how it is fastened, and in extreme conditions like a San Fransisco wood boat moved to Phoenix, even a white lead-bedded stripper would gap significantly as the planking fell well below 9% M/C. Epoxy and fabric slow this down significantly....but they don't stop it.

For most areas, planking moisture content in a trailered boat can likely vary from 15% or so (the Navy reported 13% for planking in the water, but minesweepers and whaleboats had thick planks...and Professor Jagels in the current WB reports 18%, but I doubt he's tested this and he may be guessing) down to 9% or so. You can measure the surface expanse of your planking across the halfbreadth and figure out for yourself how much it will move:

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htm

The program cited is linear and isn't accurate much above 15%, but is easy to use and is accurate enough to make your own decisions. In a glued hull, the most flexible glue possible, and q-sawn wood of a stable species like WRC are critical....as is protecting the hull from extremes of drying.

So I'll stick to my recommendations....if the strips are too small to nail, use epoxy as it has stood the test of time for longevity and flexibility....if the strips are big enough to nail, use white lead or some other soft, lasting, rot-inhibiting sealant.

I use PL Premium as bedding occasionally....if I'm still alive in 30 years I'll check what I've done with it and tell you whether I'd use it for planking or not.

[ 01-11-2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

Billy Bones
01-11-2005, 04:08 PM
I've read and appreciate RonW's article, but I must comment that it does not jive with my observation at all.

Perhaps because in the caribbean our temperature swings do different things to strip plank structures. Whatever the reason, the two catastrophic failures I have seen were in square-stripped, edge-nailed unsheathed boats. This method is so uniformly failure prone in my area that I would never consider even boarding a boat built this way. I have seen several stripped boats that were sheathed and all survive/perform very well.

Bob's comment about the stability of many boatbuilding tropical hardwoods is well noted/seconded.

By example, Richard Woods is a designer in the UK of a fantastic range of cruising and racing catamarans. He is perhaps unique in that he has built most of the boats he has drawn, and he sails them far and wide. He's at the moment going through the panama canal and on to the pacific in his eclipse design. His cats specify sheathed strip construction in many/most cases, often in the range of 5/16 x 2" strips, no nails, without failure.

At least that's the view from where I sit.

[ 01-11-2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Billy Bones ]

swanko
01-11-2005, 06:12 PM
Billy Bones:

you have my attention! what was the nature of the catastrophic failure of the square strip, edged nail vessel?

any precursors to watch for?

RonW
01-11-2005, 06:25 PM
Billy Bones, You bring a interesting comment to the discussion.
I always like to hear the bad (maybe more) as much as I do the good, then you might be able to figure out what works and what doesn't work, but more important WHY.
There has to be a reson why they failed, I would suspicion most likely a design fault or possibly poor materials, or craftsmanship, or lack there of, or a combination of all 3.
The U.K. design you mention of 5/16 x 2 inch strips would defintely fall under the category of cold molding,most if not just about all cold molded hulls usually have fiberglass cloth outside to protect the veneers. But a cold molded hull would not fall under the category of strip planked, or at least not to my way of thinking.

If you could find out more about these hulls that failed, how they where built, and why they failed, I would love to hear more.
Thanks for the input.

Billy Bones
01-12-2005, 02:38 PM
Seams opening in each case. The one still around is on the hard and I couldn't get to it thru the bush to take a pic. The strips IIRC were about 1.5" square and quarter inch gaps opened between all seams from keel to gunnl, stem to stern.

From these I've learned two things: First that ANY fastener in a hull construction must be accessible for repair. To edge nail strips and then bury them in the construction, sheathed or not, is to commit your vessel to an early grave. As I've said over and over, either you trust glue or you don't. Those folks who insist on screwing ply plank laps together along stringers overlook that the plys themselves are held together with glue, no fasteners, and are much more likely to be the source of early failure than plank lands. Fasteners remain, however, a target for corrosion, water intrusion, and structural failure. Screws are clamps and must be removed before finishing. Second, a strip planked structure must be sheathed on both sides. The arguments about moisture entrapment are academic. Experience shows that the sheathed hull lasts and lasts.

I enjoyed the comment that sheathed narrow strips are essentially cold-molding--there's something to that.

As for symptoms, there is another (quite lovely, clipper bow, carved nameboard) boat at the marina-a real slip queen-which each year shows more and more movement along the strips. IT won't be long before she's kissing mud. Very sad.

RonW
01-12-2005, 05:06 PM
Very interesting Billy Bones.
what exacly is IIRC ???
I would appreciate to hear any more details on these boats if you can find out more technical info.

With that being said, there is plenty of good references concerning traditional strip planking, just like swanko above.There are even good architects like John Atkin that gives the method the thumbs up. So what happened?
Thinking aloud and guessing.
--The strips where applied green?
--The strips where not properly nailed together.
--The strips where not fastened adequately to
the frames.
--Not enough frames, someone was playing architect and left out a lot of the frames.

Anyhow something is wrong and this unfortuneately years later is the result.

Oyster- I agree with you on this cove and bead business. It will defintely make for a problem if there has to be repair down the road. It may be fine for canoes, but as the plank thickness increases, it works a lot better on paper then it does in the real world. As you go around a curve, the cove and bead becomes real tight on the inside edge, but the outside edge opens up, and a gap has to be filled with something solid, like epoxy. Or otherwise you have the featherly edge of the outside cove exsposed, and it will chip and splinter. They don't show this in the drawings of how great and easy cove and bead is.
Not to mention having to buy the cutters, to fit your plank thickness, or all the work in coving and beading all those strips.

[ 01-12-2005, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: RonW ]

NormMessinger
01-12-2005, 08:15 PM
IIRC: If He Recalls Correctly.

TimothyB
01-14-2005, 10:49 AM
I am absolutely, positively certain that there are hundreds of wooden boats in the C'rib that are in very bad shape, carvel, strip planked or otherwise. Mr. Bones said it when he said they just don't get taken care of because of.. whatever reason (laziness, heat, distance, etc).

I am also certain that he is right about the fact that sheathed boats fare better when they are neglected, because they have a built in barrier to neglect, and essentially do not rely on those parts of the boat that rot (the wood is not structural for the most part).

For a reasonably well cared for wooden boat, however, I will bet the bank that this is not the case. Worm damage aside, a well ventilated, well cared for wooden boat should last in the C'rib just fine. I will also take exception to the implication that strippers are universally bad in the heat of the tropics.. I'll agree that a lot of strippers were built with crappy materials, because the method lends itself to that sort of mentality, and that the boats are deteriorating because of that, bad joins, or .. again.. neglect. However carvel planked boats fare no better under these conditions. So I think this argument is about 'wood' boats that have no epoxy barrier, not strippers.

The idea about burying fasteners being bad.. that's a philosophy argument, since repairing a stripper is straightforward and simple, buried fasteners or no. If you don't like it, ok! But there isn't any empirical reason not to do it. There are LEGION of strippers working fisheries around the world, today, that are old but well cared for. Pulsifer-Hamptons are exclusively made with this method and last a very long time. I've seen Lobster boats beat to kingdom come up on blocks that were still being used and the strips were fine. For every example of a bad strip boat we can probably find 2 examples of good strip boats.

The PRIMARY reason to build a stripper is that it is very hard, and very expensive, to get close grained, clear, long boards anymore. Also, because a stripper is much stiffer than a carvel hull, and more capable of taking abuse.

Mr Cleek tells us that he would be worried about expansion and contraction causing the strips to fail.. that would also cause a carvel boat to fail as well if not constructed properly, and I would worry about that too. Bob also says that he would be worried about a larger stripped boat covered in epoxy because wood that big is going to move, no matter what you do. True, if you are using a wood that moves much. If you don't, if you use a dimensionally stable softwood, how much it moves is up for debate. Also, with strips you can place the grain orientation to your advantage here.

I think strip planking is a great way to build. There are many many examples of good, strip built boats. They are strong, seaworthy and last just fine. Sure, there are strippers that have popped fastenings, cracks, cupped strips, fastener burn, etc.. but there are many others that don't. You just have to use inexpensive, rather than cheap, materials and to watch the grain orientation. You have to use ring (Anchor Fast) nails, and hot dipped galvie if not bronze. You have to use softwood for planking and they should be square.

Honestly, I don't know why we are even debating this.. strippers are a proven technology, and although not thousands of years old they have been around for a hundred years and have done pretty well from all accounts.

RonW
01-15-2005, 10:50 AM
---Seams opening up and strips coming apart.---

I have been giving this a lot of thought. And may have a answer to the problem. Traditionally galvanized trim nails have been used as fasteners to fasten the planks together.Some are using ring shank boat nails with a head, which is fine. Obviously the ring shank resists pulling out, and the head helps to hold the plank down, but also a advantage of the head is it is stopped from pulling out by the head hitting against the plank above. Not so with trim nails. And if you use trim nails they need to be driven at a angle, left and right to act as drift pins.If they used trim nails for economy and drove them straight up and down, I could easily see this situation occuring. Reread swanko's post, his 10d galvanized trim nails where (TOENAILED) big difference in holding power.They become little drift pins. Also the nails should be long enough to almost pass through 3 planks. I think improper nailing is the major contributor to this problem.

Tristan
01-15-2005, 11:39 AM
I've built four strip-planked boats, from 15 to 30 feet over the past forty years. The thirty footer, now almost thirty yrs. old, is, to my knowledge still in good shape. I have a friend who built a 36 and a 60 footer over the 30 and 40 years ago respectively, both still in good shape. I'd never build a strip planked boat that I didn't encase, inside and out, in epoxy or polyester coated fiberglass or polypropylene. With the larger boats I used layers of woven roving (over mat) down along the keel inside and out. Glueing? I've tried weldwood, resorcinal, and epoxy. I've through nailed with galvanized common nails or anchorfast (bronze). If the boat is properly, and reasonably heavily, glassed, inside and out there should be no problems with any of these alternatives (sorry guys, my philosophy is to build a "glass" boat on an integral wooden mold). The only problem I had was with a 15 foot Bahama dinghy which I glassed very lightly with mat along the inside "garboards". The mat leaked bilge water which seeped between the keel and the outside layers of polypropylene and required me to pull off and replace the outside "glass" along the keel. This same boat pounded on an underwater pipe for hours during a minor hurricane and the pipe only barely worked through the polypropylene. Polypropylene, a bitch to sand, but tough stuff. Lowell P. Thomas, Naples, FL

Venchka
01-15-2005, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by RonW:
...Also the nails should be long enough to almost pass through 3 planks.I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere. 225% of strip width is about the longest spec. for nails I have run across. Seems like any longer wouldn't follow the curve of the hull in some places.

While we're beating this horse...The latest copy of the Lee Valley Tools catalog is touting Titebond III. It says it's a PVA glue. What's that? Wasn't that mentioned earlier? Since Norm used Titebond II and oak dowels under fiberglass for Prairie Islander and Titebond III claims to be more water resistant than the II, and Norm's boat hasn't fallen apart yet, makes you wonder, huh? No metal to crud up or throw the compass off under the wood and glass. Epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth as a barrier to protect the Titebond II or III glue. Makes sense. Titebond is still WAY more expensive than PL Premium.

About the strip width/thickness ratio thing. Folks seem to be saying that square strips are easiest to plank up. So, if a fellow had plans calling for 1"x1/2" strips should he plank the boat with 1/2" square strips instead? That's a lot of strips/nailing/doweling/gluing and even more sawdust. Is it really worth the extra trouble?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

Tristan
01-15-2005, 01:32 PM
I used square strips (full 1") on my 30' cutter. It was great fun having a couple of them pop loose from their clamps while i was nailing them in. Got smacked up-along-side the head a couple times. Made "clamps" with a short piece of the strip stock in the middle, heavier pieces on each side, through bolted. You just hammer the clamps on over the strip you are fastening. Have used rectangular strips also (on other boats) and had to taper some of them, not a lot of fun. A good way to go is to use untapered rectangular strips, for example 3/4" by 1 1/2" as far as you can up the deadrise, letting the ends run on (out of fair), nail with bronze ring nails, then use a skillsaw to cut in the necessary curve at beginning of the turn of the bilge, and proceed with square strips as necessary around the turn of the bilge and on up to the sheer. You can do the same at the sheer where the strips will often be bending up toward stem and stern, letting the strips run up clear of the sheer, then cutting in the sheer with skillsaw. You can cut the bronze ring nails quite handily with a carbide tipped blade. In fact, you can also cut galvanized finishing nails with a carbide tipped blade come to think of it. And some guys can cut up their fingers etc., but that's another story. I fair the finished hulls with a grinder, number 12 grit, then a belt sander if necessary. Keep it moving and use epoxy putty to fill in the gouges. Lowell P. Thomas, an old stripper.

Bob Smalser
01-15-2005, 02:14 PM
It says it's a PVA glue. Poly Vinyl Acetate. Aliphatic, water-based glue...a glorified version of Elmer's white glue and yellow carpenter's glues.

As they absolutely, positively can't be glued over in a repair or when the joint breaks loose, I wouldn't use them in a doghouse, let alone a boat....not to mention not enough open time for many applications. Why, when there are so many better choices out there?

Venchka
01-15-2005, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
...As they absolutely, positively can't be glued over in a repair or when the joint breaks loose, I wouldn't use them in a doghouse, let alone a boat....not to mention not enough open time for many applications. Why, when there are so many better choices out there?Fair enough.

Next: Raptor nylon nails? Any thoughts on yet another hair brained idea from a wannabe boat builder?
Raptor nylon nails (http://www.raptornails.com/english/firstframe.html)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

TimothyB
01-18-2005, 11:52 AM
Those Nylon nails are nifty for a few reasons:

- They are easy to cut
- When (not if) they pop through the side of the plank you are 'nailing' it doesn't really matter.. you can sand it down to the surface
- They are light
- They don't corrode

So, if you trust the glue, epoxy or otherwise, then they are great for holding strippers together like little clamps that you fire and forget.

They do have a problem with occasionally popping thru the side of a plank more often than regular nails do, but as mentioned you can just sand it down. And of course, we are assuming you are glassing the hull as well if you use 'em. You couldn't NOT glass the hull... or at least, I would be nervous about it if I didn't... when using these fasteners. Then again, I suppose if you used epoxy and good joinery you should be ok.

I just really LIKE the idea of having all those 'vertical' metal rods in the structure I suppose. Adds to my measure of comfort.

--T

JEM
01-18-2005, 12:15 PM
http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gsahv/glue/glue.htm

Bob Smalser
01-18-2005, 12:54 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JEM:
http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gsahv/glue/glue.htm[/QUO TE]

Interesting.

PL Premium failed this gent's immersion test using plywood.

[ 01-18-2005, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

RonW
01-18-2005, 01:32 PM
To comment on the glue test that is posted above.http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gsahv/glue/glue.htm

So what? The man may have good intentions, but obviously he is far better at building websites then he is at woodworking, boatbuilding or anything along these lines. That is obvious in the hodge podge conglomeration of glues that he decided to boil and then put on a website as test results, or how to bend plywood in your bedroom, and work your way up to building a 2 sheet plywood boat. Sorry but I am not impressed.

As for his test results on P.l.400. First off that is not the glue that has been recommended for boat building, The glue that is recommended is P.L.Premium, a totally different glue.
P.L.400 is a subfloor adhesive that has been around for about 35 years. It is intended to be used between your plywood subfloor and the top of your floor joist to eliminate squeaks.
I am amazed at websites with rank ameatures that are going to show everyone how to build plywood boxes that actually float.A accomplishment that 99% of all high school students ( girls included) should be able to accomplish with no problem.
Then they recommend exterior plywood, luan, door skins, household glues, drywall and panelling adhesives, and house paint.
Then they build websites, which they are much better at, and hail themselves as accomplished craftsmans. Very far from the truth.
As far as I am concerned, with more and more of these floating boxes on the water, being hailed as boats. It is nothing more then accidents waiting to happen. And as more accidents happen by garbage being built by the so called back yard builder. The obvious will happen. The coast guard will get involved and create a strict set of guidelines and inspections and probably a material restriction list. Then the homebuilt will become far and few.

Tonyr
01-18-2005, 03:56 PM
Agreed with Ron. I have carried out extensive cold water tests with well clamped PL Premium, and it is much stronger than the wood. I have not done a boil test, since the Saint John River system in New Brunswick tends not to have summers that hot. If you intend to sail in the caldera of a volcano, then by all means go boil your boat.

All I can say about PL Premium is that it works just fine in practice and under testing for me.

Tony.

RonW
01-18-2005, 04:10 PM
Great post Tony; You put a smile on my face and made me laugh.

htom
01-18-2005, 05:17 PM
There are two advantages to "square" strips: they bend equally well in either plane, and they can be turned so that you get more "edge grained" strips.

Billy Bones
01-18-2005, 06:27 PM
Tony, you think you're being funny do ya? Check out my neighbor...

Kick 'Em Jenny (http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/volcano.cfm?vnum=1600-16=)

Tonyr
01-18-2005, 07:17 PM
Well Billy, there is many a true word spoken in jest ...

Nice neighbour you have!

Tony.