Advise on replacing cabin fronts

[snaiken]

To get things started, here's a photo of my problem,http://http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/?action=view&current=IMG_3470.jpghmm don't think that worked. Anyway I am replacing my cabin fronts. They are made of 1"X12 mahogany. They have developed some rot. So we've pulled the bungs, screws and just about have them out.
So I'm looking for advise as how to correctly install them so they'll last another 30 or so years.
What if anything do you bed it with and do you also bed each screw? What type of screws do you recommend, it looks like stainless screws came out from the interior side and brass or bronze(?) came out of the exterior side. Should I do them all bronze or brass or stainless? And where do you recommend getting the new screws, does it matter if I get them from Home Depot?
Do you reinstall the fronts raw and then finish them or do you coat the sides or all of it in epoxy or something first?
If anyone could enlighten me on the general process of reinstalling cabin fronts it would be real helpful. Thanks in advance and if I can figure out how to post a picture, I will. Seems I've done it before but I can't figure it out now for some reason.

[snaiken]

Maybe this will work.http://http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/IMG_3470.jpg

[The Bigfella]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/IMG_3470.jpg

[The Bigfella]

too many http// 's in there

as for the repair. If you can get the pieces out as a unit or series of intact units, life is much easier - as you have a ready made template.

I'd be making the parts on the bench, installing with epoxy and then varnishing - using bunged 316 stainless steel screws.

I'll see if I can find some photos

[The Bigfella]

You may be able to get an idea on glass installation from this - sorry, not a great shot:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid105/pf858d66d85a6839e440867888f4b7f67/f972564a.jpg

We used toughened glass which was made for each window to a 3mm particleboard template we supplied the glass company - a couple in 8mm, most in 10mm and a few in 12mm (up front). There is a rebate in the cabin and the glass is installed with normal window sealant after masking up all appropriate surfaces = easy cleanup and no contamination. The windows then receive a timber trim and finally a bead of sikaflex.

[P.L.Lenihan]

[QUOTE=snaiken;1622630]What if anything do you bed it with and do you also bed each screw? What type of screws do you recommend, it looks like stainless screws came out from the interior side and brass or bronze(?) came out of the exterior side. Should I do them all bronze or brass or stainless? And where do you recommend getting the new screws, does it matter if I get them from Home Depot?
Do you reinstall the fronts raw and then finish them or do you coat the sides or all of it in epoxy or something first? QUOTE>


The Bigfella has a good/right approach.Carefully remove the pieces,use as templates and re-assemble.Use epoxy to hold the works together and do not skimp.Stainless screws will be just fine.Yes,you can buy them at Home Depot but they are way too expensive.Better to go through a place like Jamestown Distributors,Stright-Mckey etc....depending on where you live :-) Do all your re-install"raw",then go over the whole finished facade with some 80 grit paper and put a nice radius on all your sharp corners(your finish will thank you for it!) and put on the finish of your choice following the manufacturers instructions.
It may be illuminating to also attempt discovering what caused the rot to occur where it did in the first place.This may become apparent as you carefully(surgically) dis-assemble the front pieces;that is, does it look like there were voids or pockets where moisture/water was able to get in and collect.A thicken epoxy,used to re-assemble, will go a long way toward preventing voids etc along your joints.
Wishing you at least thirty more years of pleasurable use !

Peter

[oakman]

Well, there's a little more to it than you think. First of all whatever is on your cabin top comes below the moulding at the top of your cabin fronts so you have to remove the moulding, and lift the edge of the cabin top covering to access that area. Second, the cabin top may, should be, fastened to the edge of the cabin front so you have to remove those fasteners. Next you should reef out the deck caulking around the wood you want to remove, and lastly you may find, though not likely here, that the cabin fronts are through bolted to the deck framing.

From the pic, looks like you are going to have to make corner posts as well as the center post, these will most likely be through bolted, and you will want to check the deck framing as it may have started to rot as well. Once all that is taken care of, yes everything should be dry fit, removed, hidden areas sealed with shellac and then bedded in compound of choice. Preferably NOT 3M 5200.

I would also advise making templates before you go any further, allowing for what you cannot see, IE the wood below the deck line. Note fastener positions and anything else that you can think of to help you when you get to making the new pieces. If you do not do this now, you WILL regret it later. You WILL NOT remember later what you think you will now.

Best of luck!!

Oakman

[Jay Greer]

This aint no weekend job with supplys from Home Depot!
What I propose might sound drastic but in the long run it will save time and labor. If at all possible, I would lift the entire deck house and do what ever repairs are needed to the carlings and fwd deck beam. Having the deck house removed will allow you to turn it upside down and access the areas that would be other wise force you into doing a jerry built job. New Corner posts are going to be a must as well as either a new forward end or, at least the bottom half. Clamping will also be much easier by having it accesable on a set or horses or a bench. If other areas are too far gone, this might be time to consider building a new deck house.
Jay

[oakman]

Yes good point Jay, if there is that much damage here it may have run aft at the seam between deckhouse and carlings. . .

[snaiken]

http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/?action=view&current=CabinFronts455.jpghttp://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/?action=view&current=CabinFronts454.jpgThanks alot for all the advise. Bigfella, thanks for getting the picture up. I'm am trying to post one here again and you can see the progress. I also really liked the way you did your windows and want to change the look of mine. Thought about rectangle portholes but now have decided to keep it simple and put some trip around the windows. I want to do this right so I don't have to do it for another 30 years or so. So I appreciate the words PLL, Oakman and Jay you guys are right and as I get further into the project I see that it could continue all the way around the cabin. Seems to be rot in the corner posts and a little in the cabin sides. Boy I hate to have to completely redo the corner and center posts as they are so nice on the inside and I really want to keep it looking original. And oakman I think your right that there are screws coming down from the cabin top to the cabin fronts because it appears that I have all the screws out but I can't get the top of the board free. I'll grind into the top tomorrow and see if I can see those screws. This is alll new to me and a little daunting so I appreciate the help a lot and will keep adding pictures here so maybe it'll help someone else, (and to keep you interested!). Lets try those photos...http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/?action=view&current=CabinFronts453.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts449.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts448.jpg

[Don Victore]

I'm wonder. what do you think caused the rot?That end grain against the deck was probably not a great way to attack that situation.

[oakman]

Well looks like you are making good progress. . . from the new photos looks like the molding aroung the cabin top was not bedded well. this is a tricky spot and the cabin top covering should wrap over the ends of the planks to at least shed water onto the surface of the cabin fronts. You will need to address this on reinstallation. Seal the endgrains with epoxy, bed the top of the cabin fronts with boatlife lifecaulk, an all other surfaces with an oil based bedding compound. When you reinstall the trim, tape off the surrounding areas and bed with lifecaulk so that in screwing down you get easement all around. Clean with thinner then pull the tape. This will give you a clean caulk line and should prevent seepage behind the trim.

Looks like your center post is "false" and if the rot is not too bad you could dry out the inner post and soak the soft wood with epoxy, remake the false post and you are good to go. Same for the corner posts if they are made the same way.

Whoever put this togethor last time did not seal the raw wood, this is a must, all buried wood MUST be sealed and mating surfaces bedded. If this had been done you might have been able to detect a leak dripping instead of the wood soaking up all the leak.

Oakman

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts455.jpgI think this started because the water would settle in along the bottom of the cabin fronts and maybe collected a bit on the top of the center post. I'm guessing due to not keeping up on the caulk and the varnish. When I got the boat 3 years ago, the varnish was pretty much gone, and I just haven't got the redoing the caulk along the bottom. There was a bit of a problem when I first got it and I've been waiting for the right time to do this. The false fronts on the center and corner posts, I assume you mean they weren't all one piece, they are kind of a cap and under the cap there seems to be some rot too. I'm sort of thinking about scarfing a piece onto the front of the posts so I don't have to remove them completely. Not sure about that yet. As much as lifting the whole cabin top is probably the best thing to do, I'm trying to avoid that, but we'll see how things go. It appears to me that there was some sort of bedding compound, looks to be black and almost like tar paper but I think it's just caulk of some sort. There were some years before I bought the boat that water could have gotten in there and started all this. I'm going to try to repost a couple of pictures, I think I'm starting to get the hang of it.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts453.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts454.jpg

[snaiken]

This is just to give the scope of the project. It's got to be done in the water as there are no haul out facilities where I live.http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/128-2801_IMG.jpg

[Jay Greer]

I'm wonder. what do you think caused the rot?That end grain against the deck was probably not a great way to attack that situation.
One point, that is often overlooked, when making a coach roof drip molding is to cut a stop water slot on the underside. This goes for all of the corners as well. The stop water slot prevents run off water from running up the back side of the trim by capilary action. This is often the culprit when deck house parts end up with a bad case of the rots.
Jay

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/127-2766_IMG.jpg

[snaiken]

What and how is a stop water slot done?http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/127-2770_IMG.jpg

[pcford]

What and how is a stop water slot done?

Well, I have heard them called a drip cove most often.

It is simply a narrow groove in the underside of a rubrail or coachhouse moulding. Water runs over and down the outboard face of rubrail, runs to the underside of rubrail, hits the groove and drops off of rail...not running down side of boat or wicking up behind rail.

[snaiken]

I appreciate the honesty, and what I didn't tell you all is that I have hired someone that is capable of doing the job...and getting it back together again. He's a cabinet maker/finish carpenter, known him for years, best guy around here to do the job. He hasn't really worked on boats and that's why I'm seeking advise. I will make sure it gets done properly, with a little help from you guys.
Believe me, I really appreciate the time you guys take to help me out. I'll keep posting photos as the work progresses. Of course it's turning out to be a bigger job than I wanted but I think it will be worth it and I need to keep the boat going. I had it at the Portownsend festival last year anad want to bring it up again and maybe with a rebuilt cabin and some different windows I'll be motivated to sail it up there again. I live about an hour east of Portland OR.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Holy smokes! She's in the water with the mast up and sitting on the forward part of the roof.For some odd ball reason I thought this was a smallish power boat sitting in your driveway,at least from the first picture or two :-)
Mr.Ledger and Mr.Greer certainly are steering you towards the proper course of action. I'd be dearly tempted to pull the mast off to relieve some of the load while secretly praying to get some upward play in the roof once the perimeter of the foreward cabin faces have been liberated of their fastenings.Also,ream out the deck caulking along the lower edges of the panels to give perhaps more wiggle room in the off hand chance that you can pull,wiggle or jerk the panels out whole.
Mr.Ledgers pattern advice is spot on!Remember,if the well fitted pattern can be taken out,so too will the new faces be able to fit right back in. :-)
How is your roof built? Plywood over lays?

Peter

[Tom Hunter]

Seven up,

That is what I would have done 7 years ago when I started learning how to fix my boat.

Now I would do what snaiken is doing. Fortunately my cabin is a rectangle, so it is a lot easier. But I still do bone headed stuff, it seems to be part of the learning process. However my boat is on the hard and covered, so if I do something wrong I can fix it, and if I don't have time the boat can sit safetly.

Snaiken is doing it the right way, especially in the circumstances. Beautiful boat, but that cabin front makes the job a lot more difficult.

[snaiken]

Seven up, I was sort of leaning toward doing it that way too but as I dig into this it seems I may just go for it and replace as much as I can. I know that the mast may need to come down at some point too. Right now my shrouds aren't very tight and I don't think there's any play at all in the roof. The front windows I think are going to come right out. Right now I can push the bottom out but it's still being held in by some screws I believe that are coming from the roof down, thanks oakman for pointing this out. They are hidden under the paint and fiberglass and I didn't know they were there. Today I will grind away the glass and get those out. The roof is made up of I think 1/2" fir strips, sort of a tounge and groove look with either 2, 1/4" or 1, 1/2" sheet of plywood with glass on top of that. It seems to be a real sturdy roof. PLL, I wish this were in my driveway but unfortunately I've got to do it in the water.

[sdowney717]

IMO, some of you are going way beyond what is needed to properly fix this.

It looks like those 2 cabin front boards and the central pillar are perhaps the only rotten parts.

I would remove all 3 pieces. The front support pillar looks nice on the inside, I would remove it and cut off the outer rotten area and glue on an entire new front piece and reshape it to match the original. Thus preserving the inner surface which looks just fine. Bleach it and fill up any rotted areas with epoxy and some filler and it wont get wet so rot is stopped.

The 2 FLAT front boards are just flat boards with a few angles cut in to them. When you remove these, sure you could do a pattern mockup but to me a waste of time. Simple pattern them onto some new mahogany, where the board no longer exists, well the lines are straight and the angles are also, so just extend the lines to their natural end.

All inner exposed wood is going to have to be closely examined, but remember, if it stays dry after the re[pair then no more rot can spread, so fix it all and then seal it all with a nice layer of epoxy.

I just rebuilt the entire front window salon cabin area on the eggharbor and it was much more complicated than this job looks. I certainly did not have to go to extreme lengths like removing the entire cabin top. It was not an easy job what with all the angles and I had to repair a section at a time and wait for the glue.

Frankly some of you are just being too anal about this.

[sdowney717]

if you look at his pictures on photobucket, it looks like the inside has a mast support running down to the floor.
So, removing the window should not be a great cause for concern

[pcford]

I don't see this a particularly difficult repair. A prudent and patient amateur of moderate skills ought to be able to do it. Patience being the most important element....as always.

[sdowney717]

on the home depot stainless deck screws, they are fine. They are 18-8 and decent sized shanks. They are fine above the waterline.

from my experience, the ones at lowes are thin shanked and easily break, but the HD ones are really tough.

IF you use bronze, then you should run a steel screw of the same size into the hole before running in the bronze screw, or you might find some of them twisting off at the shank. Some bronze like everdure were pretty strong, but you will curse if you find your running soft screws in and having them snap off on you.

[Jay Greer]

on the home depot stainless deck screws, they are fine. They are 18-8 and decent sized shanks. They are fine above the waterline.

from my experience, the ones at lowes are thin shanked and easily break, but the HD ones are really tough.

IF you use bronze, then you should run a steel screw of the same size into the hole before running in the bronze screw, or you might find some of them twisting off at the shank. Some bronze like everdure were pretty strong, but you will curse if you find your running soft screws in and having them snap off on you.

Not a point of bombastic ego, but, I have never twisted off the shank of any screw of any material in nearly fifty years of boat building! Might I be so bold as to suggest the use of a Yankee Screwdriver for this job? It does allow the user to feel the screw as it goes in. Additionaly, decking screws are not appropriate for marine use other than for the temporary holding of cross spalls and bracing. The shanks are too thin!! Marine screws have thicker shanks to risist the shock of racking, sliding and twisting forces that are subjected to a hull at sea
I do note, from the photos, that one of the end panels is split. Most often this is caused by fitting the glass or a port hole spigot too tight. Some clearance between the wood and the glass will to obviate this possibility.
Jay

[oakman]

IMO, some of you are going way beyond what is needed to properly fix this.


The 2 FLAT front boards are just flat boards with a few angles cut in to them. When you remove these, sure you could do a pattern mockup but to me a waste of time. Simple pattern them onto some new mahogany, where the board no longer exists, well the lines are straight and the angles are also, so just extend the lines to their natural end.


Frankly some of you are just being too anal about this.

Well sdowney 717, I would say that you are not there and you have no idea whether the lines are straight. I very much doubt they are.

Try using a little bowling alley wax on your screws, and a pattern is NEVER a bad idea.

Snaiken, when fitting with a pattern, remember that the actual piece will be thicker and that will affect the fit, especially at the bevels. Also note which side of the piece the pattern was made for, the exterior face of the wood or the interior.

Boatbuilding is about bieng anal sdowney, all the best were, so those of us who actually care about sharing good advice are anal. In case you haven't noticed boat mistakes are expensive.

Oakman

[snaiken]

Well I appreciate all the opinions. I didn't make it to the boat today like I thought so I'll have to post more pics tomorrow. I do hate to replace the corner posts as they do look good on the inside. I was also thinking of scarfing a new piece to the front if I can. there is a false front that will cover it up on the outside. The front windows are fortunately flat, the sides have a bit of a bend to them. If I end up messing with the cabin sides I have to think about putting in new windows. I'm thinking about bronze rectangular portholes on the side and I think you call them dead lights in the front(non opening) and maybe just trim those in wood. Anyway more to come on this.

[oakman]

Snaiken

Yes, your windows are flat but I bet the cut at the deck is a curve which you will not retain accurately due to the rot. It is a lot easier to scribe a piece of luan as a pattern rather than just drawing on the new piece. I usually make the pattern at the largest face and cut the bevels back from this face.

You can always rig a little tarp over that area of the boat to protect from weather. I have done a lot more work than that on boats in the water. Keep on keepin on!

Oakman

[sdowney717]

seriously the HD deck screws are thicker shanked and I have never broken any of those running them into wood. I have striped some of the square heads on those screws. The lowes stainless deck screws are terrible weak and after I bought one box never again. I always look at the screw and decide for myself if it is up to the task.

So what is wrong with the old screws you have, are they corroded ?
If they are decent silicon bronze they will be tough screws, perhaps you can reuse them. Although I have seen what I thought may have been bronze go 'pink' losing their zinc or tin and they may look ok, but they will snap off. Perhaps some may even be brass.
Using 18-8 screws above the waterline such as around this window and you will have zero problem with them corroding or breaking and they wont cost as much.

[snaiken]

OK here's the updated photos. After grinding on the top of the cabin to reveal the screws that apprear to be holding the top of the cabin fronts in place, we found out that there is a layer of plywood over them so we still couldn't see them! So what we did is ran a razor blade along the top edge of the cabin fronts until we hit a screw and then drilled down onto where we thought the screw was. Well it worked, not the prettiest but probably the only way to do it. Now I can see that each 1/2" fir strip had a screw through it holding them on the the cabin fronts. I think when we reinstall we will just fill the holes with epoxy or something then glass back over it again. I'll post these photos and take some more this evening once the cabin fronts are actually out.
sdowney, I thought about reuseing the old screw as they don't look all that bad. But I think I might as well start with new again as they will be the least of my expenses. thanks for all the input. http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/139-3921_IMG.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/139-3927_IMG.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/139-3922_IMG.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/139-3920_IMG.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/139-3930_IMG.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/139-3920_IMG.jpg

[snaiken]

And one of her stern, for you stern guys....http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/139-3933_IMG.jpg

[MKane]

With an ass like that I would go for the full face lift. Not just some new lipstick. That is a sweet looking boat !

MK

[snaiken]

Well we got the cabin fronts out. Now we have a good look at her and need to make some decisions...


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts456.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts457.jpg

[Eric D]

how rotten is the deck ends under the cabin faces (sill area) It looks a bit wet/discolored from here.

Nice boat, it appears that you are going for the proper repairs, not just some cob job, you should be commeneded.

[snaiken]

Thanks Eric, yes I want to do it right although still hoping to not lift off the whole cabin. The deck itself seems to be in fine shape, no rot that I have found on the teak, just the mahogany. From the inside everything looks just fine and I'm am leaning toward removing all the rot, trying not to remove the center and corner posts and scarfing a piece with some epoxy on to it. None of this will be seen once everything is back together. Of course making new window frames and some new trip pieces and probably putting in a different type of front window, I'm thinking about a fixed rectangular port with the bronze trim ring if I can find the right one. Any suggestions on sources for the windows? I also like the way Bigfella has done his I am just thinking about ease of refinishing as this area gets lots of water and sun on it and think a brass trim ring might be easier to deal with.
After we clean out all the rot I'll post some more photos.

[snaiken]

By the way on the last photos that bottom trim piece is actually an L-shaped piece that fits into about a 2" recess in the deck, that's why it looks a bit rotten. Once that is romoved the deck itself appears unharmed. Love that teak! I may try and save the verticle part and remove the bottom part of the L and replace with a seperate piece, maybe teak since it won't be seen and may have better rot resistance.

[snaiken]

Thanks for checking in sevenup. Yeah, not much time and it of course isn't done yet. We are digging (literally) into this carefully and trying to see if we can save the corner posts and center post. As you can see by some of the photos, we routed out a section and are considering putting in a new piece of wood. none of this would be seen once it's back together and I think we are getting pretty close to having good wood again.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts456.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts459.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts461.jpg

[snaiken]

Still working on getting the photos to stack...
Here are some with most of the rot routed out. I see I am going to have to replace the starboard cabin side too. I am going to try and wait on the port side, it's in fine shape and I have opened up a big enough project. Yes, I really should lift the whole cabin top, just not quite ready to go there....yet.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts474.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts472.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts471.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts466.jpg

[Andy Bangs]

Wow. I admire your courage. Keep the project's progress accessible with your pictures. Thanks!

[Jim Ledger]

Any progress?

[Jay Greer]

Not being there to see the project first hand is a disadvantage. Still, I am inclined to believe that lifting the deck house would be much less work than you are obviously getting into.
Jay

[snaiken]

Thanks for checking in. I've been a little slow on keeping up to date on the progress, which also seems a little slow.
So as a newbie to this sort of project I am learning a lot. And the old adage of it taking twice as long and costing twice as much is pretty much spot on, actually when referring to wooden boats you might consider 3 times the cost and 3 times as long?? Anyway, I know Jay is right about removing the cabing top. It is really the appropriate way to do it and would solve all the the surfacing issues and we'd probably be good for another 30 years. However.....it just brings up so many other things like time, money, a good place to do it etc. I want to go sailing...this year!! Pulling the cabin off means remaking the 4 corner posts and the forward center post. They are pretty big and sure look nice right now from the inside of the boat. It also means making all new trip pieces in and out and well you know, it's a whole rebuild and something I'm going to have to plan a little more for. I think if I want to really redo the whole top I might as well take all the measurements and build a whole new one off sight and then pull the existing one off and replace it. I am finding some rot in the cabin top too, not in the layer of plywood but in the I think hemlock strips that are visible from the inside. Still though not visible from the inside except for maybe 1/2 inch in one place.
So after much thought and consideration and the potential of being verbally beaten on this sight I have come to the conclusion that I am going to have to make a compromise for now and use some...gawd I hate to say this...epoxy filler, git rot, etc on some areas. We have dug out most of the rot and in some areas I think this will work just fine. There is the starboard cabin side that I know will have to be replaced someday but boy it opens up a whole can of worms when you go to take that off. So in an effort to keep paying my mortgage on my house I will have to do the best I can with what I have. Now it looks like at this point none of the filler will be visible from inside or outside. We have rounted out most of the rot and are down to good wood and are making new pieces of wood to fit in and we will stick them in with epoxy. We are making new front window frames and false fronts ( I think that's what you call them) for the cabin corners and front center post. So when it does go back together it should look just fine and I hope last another 10 years, at least. I'm going to seal the crap out of everything to make sure no water will get in there again.
This post is getting lengthy and I don't want to lose your interest so I am going to finish up. I will take some more photos this evening and bring you up to date visually and add more text then. I am still open ears to anything said here so feel free to lend your opinions...and I'll try to take the lashings in stride.

[Jay Greer]

My own approach would be to make accurate measurments and start building a new deck house, leaving the old one in place until time to swap. the hole up fwd can be patched temporarily and allow you to use the boat. I am guessing that I could knock out a new deck house in three to four weeks.
Common Sense#1 just got a new house and it took less time than that to build.
Jay
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p80fc0f6603ea6fc44f2bcccece9ed930/e9789130.jpg

[snaiken]

That's a good looking deck house Jay. I think that's probably the way to do it too. Then I can build it in the winter and take my time on it. I'm going to try and make this last a few years. The deck is in perfect shape fortunately. So here are a few pics of what we are doing. You'll see the blocks of wood we are going to sink in with epoxy and then fair the whole thing out and get the front panels on. By the way, any opinions on the type of mahagony to use. I have some Honduras and some African. It's looking like we are going to do the front panels out of African because of the width of the board, although the mahagony seems denser which I like. Not sure what was used originally and think either will look fine.
Ok here are some pictures.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts986.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts982.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts983.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts988.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts987.jpg

[snaiken]

So thinking ahead I thought I should take a look at some windows and the trim. I've decided that I can't do rectangular opening ports like I wanted, A, it's expensive and B, you'll hit your head on them when sitting inside the cabin. So I going to keep them as they were and just replace the lexan and add I think a one piece trim around them like some in these pictures. http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts970.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts960.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts959.jpg

[Jay Greer]

My reasons for doing a full replacement are based upon the fact that you have a damn nice boat! It is really a shame that either poor choice of materials or bad joinery caused your rot problems. So far as what kind of Mahogony would be better, it is up to you. I find that African is a bit coarser in grain than Honduras and is often a bit more challenging to work due to grain pattern reversal. Often African is not as dense as Honduras, but they are both good woods to use.
Jay

[Paul Girouard]

You should look up African Mahog. they are differences , Khaya , Sapele, etc .

Here's a few links ,

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/African_Versus_Honduras_Mahogany.html

http://www.exotichardwoods-africa.com/mahoganyafrican.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaya

http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/Inventory/sapele.html


http://www.edensaw.com/products_list.asp?gr=26&cat=3

Study up . There are differences , some may matter some may not , YMMV.

[snaiken]

Thanks for the encouragement Jay. I also think it's worth doing right at some point. And thanks Paul and Jay for the opinions and info on the choice of wood. That's real helpful. I'm also figuring out that unless money flows in like water that to be a wooden boat owner, you'd better learn how to work with wood and be able to do your own work. Kind of like driving an old VW, got to be a bit of a mechanic....
I soaked it with git rot over the weekend and we are going to try to start putting things back together this week...I hope. I'll keep you posted with more pics as things progress.

[snaiken]

Thought I'd post some pics of the progress. We coated everything with epoxy and put the inserts of wood in with epoxy fillet compound. Just did a quick rough sand of it tonight. I'll fill in the low spots and hopefully finish sanding it so we can put in the new window panels over the weekend.
Question: do I coat the entire new window panels with epoxy and then varnish over that? Or should I just coat the ends with epoxy and finish the inside and out with just the varnish??

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1000.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts998.jpg

[snaiken]

How come these pics are side by side, anyone know?
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts999.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts997.jpg

[Paul Girouard]

your not spacing the links out , at least thats what I do , set the link in place , use the spacer bar , the long key in the middle of your type board , I guess thats what it's called:D

Then do your next link , spaced below it , your putting your links in the same line so to speak.

Space them out , one under another, like I have my links to the african mahog . earlier.

[Paul Girouard]

How come these pics are side by side, anyone know?
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts999.jpg




http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts997.jpg

Like this .

[Paul Girouard]

Thought I'd post some pics of the progress. We coated everything with epoxy and put the inserts of wood in with epoxy fillet compound. Just did a quick rough sand of it tonight. I'll fill in the low spots and hopefully finish sanding it so we can put in the new window panels over the weekend.
Question: do I coat the entire new window panels with epoxy and then varnish over that? Or should I just coat the ends with epoxy and finish the inside and out with just the varnish??

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1000.jpg




http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts998.jpg


Those where hard to view side by side :D

Edited to add , if it where me I'd sand again to a finsh product then epoxy everything , don't add micro ballons / filler just epoxy . Then put your finish over the top .

This might be a stretch , but seeing your looking at this like a temp fit , maybe you could use this water borne varnish to see if it's worth a $hit for exterior boat use .

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/May9th9.jpg

The one on the right , the Aqua spar, it works very nice for everything I've used it on , all interior house stuff . but it sez it's for marine use .

Looks like your pulling things back togehter pretty well, that cabin top gonna be a issue ? You have a plan of attack yet?

[snaiken]

Thanks Paul, I'll try that method for stacking the pics next time I put some up. It's annoying to scroll sideways...
I slso picked up some of that Dalys finish for the interior parts. I will most likely Cetol the outside because that's what I've done to the rest of her and it holds up real nice and is easy to work with. I'd like to varnish it all but need to keep it as low maintenance as possible (wooden boat=low maintenance....not!).
So on the question of covering the new front panels with epoxy first. Do you just brush it on and just one coat before you put on the varnish, or Cetol? Do you need to sand the epoxy coat (120 grit?) first before you put on the varnish or just lay the varnish straight over the epoxy and sand those coats?
And on the Daly's it says you can apply it with a rag or brush. I did a quick job on something else I had and brushed it on then took the rag and wiped it down. Looked ok but was a quick job. Any suggestions?
Oh and when we do put the front panels in I intended to bed it with Sikaflex (can't think of the number) it's an adhesive bedding compoud, not 5200. Any opinions on that process.

And on the cabin top I think I'm going to run the screws down from the top as they were using the same holes and then fill them with an epoxy filler, then sand it all smooth, then lay about 3 layers of 5 or 6" wide glass along the front and partially down the starboard side and fair it all in a paint it white again then put on the "eyebrow" trim pieces. That part seems like the easiest of the project to me. Thanks for the help.

[Paul Girouard]

Thin epoxy should level out / soak in so all you'd be doing is what I call "knocking off the hair" , the raised grain , bugs , dust that will fall in the wet product, so ya I'd scuff it . Others may have different ideas .

I've alway done the old "tip and roll" with the water borne , roll it out with what I call a peanut roller , not sure where that term comes from MTL a old place I used to work, we had all sorts of "funny / fun names" for stuff :D :rolleyes:




The only time I've used a rag was for a color / test sample , a good brush Purdy or = after you spread the product with the low nap / small roller. That type roller doesn't throw the sort of "over spray" a larger regular type roller does so the work is neater. And neatness does count IMO;)

Bob Smalser might have a better product to bed the windows in , from my experience Sikaflex might be more a "glue" than you need for bedding compound .


The crew has been pretty quite on this thread , they must be mad at the carpenter's workin on boats :D part of it:rolleyes:

[snaiken]

If there were a boatwright around here, I'd hire him. But in my area you get carpenters:D. I was wondering about the sikaflex too and if I needed the adhesive characters of it or not. I also have some boatlife caulk. I just want it to be real water tight....
It was also pointed out to me that I have the Daly's Profin, not the aqua spar. I guess with the profin you can wipe it down with a rag...

[Paul Girouard]

Snake, how goes the battle ? What did you decide to bed your window panels in?

[snaiken]

Well the battle continues.... I am in sanding mode right now and am finishing up fairing out where the cabin fronts attach and also sanded down the starboard cabin side and removed the windows so I can get new ones made. Then I decided I ought to sand some of the interior in the areas that will be easier to reach with the frames and windows out. Oh and then since I have to repaint part of the cabin top, I thought I'd better replace one (for now) of my hand rails. so I took that off and drilled holes into the new one. Today I'll put on some cpes after all the sanding is done and then I think we will be ready to install the window frames. The window frames do need to be bent on. I didn't see that there was a curve there a first...but there is. I really haven't decided quite yet what to bed them in. I'm looking for suggestions from the experts on this. I've been reading other posts and there seems to be a mixed opinion. I think it was originally bedding in 5200, I could be wrong, it just has the same color to it. But I don't think I want to put that on again. I'll try and update the photos tonight. Thanks for checking in.

[snaiken]

Well I haven't got to update the pictures yet. I'm gone for the weekend and will resume on Monday. It's a slowww process....and it got real expensive, real fast so I'm doing more of the work now. I'll still be needing some support and advise. Don't leave me hanging now....
What is the opinions of the experts as to what to bed the wood window frames in. I have a sika flex product that says it's an adhesive bedding compound. Don't know the number but it's not 5200. The window themselves I think will go in with silicone as that's what worked well before.
I've reread this thread a few times and you guys are spot on with the help and I appreciate it!

[snaiken]

Oh one more question. After sanding down the cabin side I put some cpes on it to seal it all up. Is that necessary to do or is it mainly the end grains that you want to seal up. Also when I put on the cpes there appears to be areas that I didn't sand well, looks a bit crappy but I swear I sanded the heck out of it and it looked great just raw. I'm thinking there was some of that blueish mildew in the wood and maybe I ought to sand it off again and put some oxcilic (sp?) acid on it before I put any coatings. Any opinions on this? Thanks.

[snaiken]

Thought I'd post some photo of the progress. It's been slow but steady. Just got the port panel to fit. It's just set in there and will look better when it's all screwed in. Anyone have any suggestions on what to bed the window frames in? Thanks http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1014.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1010.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1012.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1004.jpg

[Jay Greer]

The real question when bedding any part on a boat is, do you expect that you may need to remove it in the future? Where the rubber and silicone based sealants are handy, I tend to revert to the tried and true oil based products that have proven themselves to be reliable over the past century.
Jay

[Jim Ledger]

The real question when bedding any part on a boat is, do you expect that you may need to remove it in the future? Where the rubber and silicone based sealants are handy, I tend to revert to the tried and true oil based products that have proven themselves to be reliable over the past century.
Jay

Tried and true? How many times have you removed a cleat or piece of trim and found a dry, cracked, crumbly material underneath that is the remains of the oil-based bedding?

Maybe that material was the best they had at the time.

[snaiken]

I sure hope I don't have to remove the panels again cause they are a pain in the rear! But of course, you never know what the future holds in store as far as removing them. I am leaning towards a sikaflex bedding compound because that's what I bought for the job, but I'd like some suggestions from the experts. Also I have coated the panels with CPES and wanted to know if that's the suggested method or do I just need to coat the ends and then put a finish on the faces? I am back to finishing the project on my own so I'll surely have more questions as I go. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot!

[Jay Greer]

I must commend you for your skill and tenacity! This kind of work really separates the craftsmen from the hacks! My own choice for bedding is still Dolfinite. I often seal end grain or open grain with shellack before applying the bedding compound. This prevents the oils from leaching into the wood.
Jay

[snaiken]

Thanks Jay, I'll take that as a big compliment. It has been a big job and tenacity and patience has been a good sized part of it. The skill, well I'm working on that too! I got the starboard side to fit last night and now need to screw everything in and dry fit it so I can make the false center and side posts. So far so good and thanks to all for the advise! I'll post more as things progress. Sean

[snaiken]

Well I got the panels screwed and bedded in place. Over all I think it's coming out just fine, not perfect but I think close enough. Here are some pics of the progress.http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1020.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1024.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1019.jpg

[snaiken]

Thanks seven up. It's been more work and of course more time than I would have thought, but I've learned a lot and will feel better about any other project I will need to deal with someday. I hope to have it sailing again by next weekend. (this weekend I'll be up at the wooden boat festival). More sanding tomorrow....

[snaiken]

Thought I'd post some pics of the progress.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1034.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1036.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1048.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1050.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1053.jpg

[Jim Ledger]

Great job under difficult circumstances, Snaiken. It looks really good.

What kind of bedding did you end up using?

[oakman]

Yes, I second that Snaiken. Looks really great! Fine job, glad to see you stick it out.

[Oscarvan]

That is a damn fine looking job. I commend you for doing the right thing and repairing this beautiful boat properly. I know you must feel great satisfaction in doing so.

[snaiken]

Thanks for the compliments! Not having done this before I appreciate it. I'm pretty happy with how it's coming out too. I would have been really bummed if I'd spent all this time on it and it was coming out crappy, which could have happened... I ended up bedding the frames in Sitka flex 291. I hope that works out ok. I should have the eyebrow trim pieces on this evening and then I'll put the windows in. I picked up some silicone window sealant at the hardware store to put those in with. Just might have her out sailing by the weekend...uh that's this weekend I hope!
Lot's of good advise early on with the project and I really appreciate it all. This forum has been a wealth of information for a guy like me. I'm the only wood sailboat at our marina, so I'm kinda out on my own and those fiberglass guys just kinda shake their heads....

[snaiken]

Well I basically have it finished. Got the trip pieces on and the windows in. Didn't make it out sailing over the weekend but I'll be ready for this weekend. This project took A LOT longer than I ever would have thought. But it's finally together. I did learn on the installation of the windows that you need to put plenty of caulk orhttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1056.jpg whatever you use so it squeeses out on all side. The new windows are so clear that you see right behind them and it looks funky if it doesn't spread out evenly under the lexan. I also helps when taping off the window that you don't get any tape stuck behind the window, like I did. I only had to redo them once, but what a pain to take out all the silicone again!
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1057.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1069.jpghttp://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1066.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1074.jpg

[snaiken]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u114/snaiken/boat/CabinFronts1077.jpg

[Jay Greer]

Congratulations on reaching your goal! The thing that impressed me most is your tennacity!
Jay

[Paul Girouard]

Looks good snake , way ta go!

What did yoy end up using , the Khaya (African Mahog) or did you use Honduras? I looked back but never did see it if you had mentioned it.

You almost have photo posting down as well , just a little more space between the words and the link insert line and you'll be a WFB expert.

At least you can size them right ole grbarr still can't figure that out :D

[snaiken]

Thanks gentlemen. Took her out for a short sail this evening. I ended up using the African because of the width of the plank.