Belay pins vs. cleats

[BillyBudd]

After seeing several Fenwick Williams catboats at the recent Cesapeake Bay Maritime small craft festival, I'm considering using several pin rails on the bulhead of my Bolger Chebacco 20'x7.5' cat-yawl. The option would be a line of cleats on the cuddy roof. Both seem to do the same job, but the advantage that comes to the eye with the belaying pins is that the lines can be tossed over the pins or more neatly arrayed below them than might be the usual scenario with cleats on the roof. With the pins there's a need for a rounded metal edge on the roof -- not a big deal. Are there thoughts that haven't come to mind? Thinking 'salty' here, but blame it on Fenwick Williams.

[NormMessinger]

Just remember, you can't throw cleats at the enemy.

[paladin]

...cleats make lousy noggin' knockers....

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Don't make belaying pins, or cleats, too small.

If you need to swig hard on a line, a cleat is a little easier. Conversely, if you hang the coiled fall off a vertical belaying pin it looks neater than hanging it off an horizontal cleat, and you can very easily let it run by dropping the coil onto the cockpit sole and casting the turns off.

[Matt J.]

RARUS carries pin rails for her jib halyard, and main and jib lazy jacks. I like them better than cleats for lines that don't need frequent adjustment, or lines that require long lengths to be coiled (halyards). I think they're great for these uses. I wouldn't want them for sheets or frequently used running rigging though - just too used to cleating off lines.

[gaffman]

Swigging is best done around a pin and not a cleat. There is too much friction around the cleat. A proper pin should be free to rotate in its hole, so that when the line is swigged, the pin actually spins as the line is moving around it. There is little or no friction that way and the line does not wear.

[Dave Hadfield]

When she captured me, Drake had only cleats. I made a fife rail of pins, and much prefer them. Simple, strong, cheap and all my halyards are much more organized.

[Bob Cleek]

Yes to all of the above. Unfortunately, "some people" seem to have a bad habit of stealing belaying pins, particularly nice polished bronze ones. I guess the temptation is just too much for the jerks. You might consider stowing them below and using a "throw away" piece of dowel for when the boat is at the dock untended.

[Hughman]

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
You might consider stowing them below and using a "throw away" piece of dowel for when the boat is at the dock untended.Or use a piece of friction fit brass rod in a hole drilled through the pin underneath the rail to prevent sticky fingers.

Some folks just can't resist playing pirate..... :rolleyes:

[BillyBudd]

Thanks to all. A merry subject. I'd make the belaying pins out of wood, turning some hardwood on the lathe (thanks for the hint: free to spin in rail). Dock pirates! Argggh. Guess I'd turn a few extra for these gulls. What is 'swigging'? And, I should let all of my ignorance shine in the sun, does the line go on to the pin any differently than on to a cleat? And..and, it does seem that the fife rails need to be *well* attached to the bulkhead: screws and/or through bolts with backup plates, epoxy.

[Bayboat]

"Swigging" is the same as "sweating up" when applied to a halyard. It's a sideways pull to tighten, then grudgingly letting go what you've gained while pulling on one turn around the pin below the pinrail or fife rail. I like pins for halyards, cleats for deck lines, e.g. sheets.,
and to belay a winched line on deck or on a coamig.

[George.]

Belaying pins, by all means. You can't brain a boarder with a cleat. Make your pin rail waist high, near the mast - forget about low rails at the bulwarks, or anywhere else. Waist high, about 30cm from the mast, is ideal, and anyone that tells you it won't look good doesn't understand the classic look. And you'll get a lot more tension on when swiggin'...

Bronze pins make for leaner rails and smaller holes, and make sure you run the line behind the wood rail before turning it around the pin - the stress is supposed to be on the hardwood, not on the pin.

[sawcutmill]

Who would polish their belay pins? Honestly,way too much time on their hands! LOL

[George.]

No need to polish if you use them - the line being swagged polishes the bronze for you! ;)

[gaffman]

I must disagree with George as to the height of the fife rail (on practical not necessarily aesthetic terms). Rather than waist high, I'd put the pins about 18" off the deck. I think you get more leverage when swigging a line that way. The other nice thing I like about the fife rail, is that you can put an eyelet on the top of the threaded rod (going through the cornerpost of the rail) securing the thing to the deck. Through that eyelet, you can put a snatch block and lead a line back to the cockpit for someone to haul a line if you're short-handed. The lateral pull of that line may be a bit much if the posts of the fife rail are waist high.

[George.]

You are right - not quite waist high. Ours are 60 cm off the deck, so you do pull up a bit on the rope. I meant that those very low ones you see, 20 cm off the deck, are too low in my opinion.

[J. Dillon]

Another advantage not mentioned is the ability to pull the pin to release the halyard fast in an emergency. This works on small craft if the pin has a "soft" shoulder.

JD

[mwybo]

Can someone post a picture or a link, I am having a hard time visualizing the setup, especially how the halyards are attached.

thanks

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Jack -- Yes indeed.

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/pin1.jpg

Or even no shoulder, just the step --

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/pin2.jpg

mwbbo -- check out the pictures in this thread (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010376).

Mike