Folkboats crash

[Hwyl]

It's a clear port and starboard

http://www.ybw.com/img/newsdesk/yw/ywnews/folkboat4.jpg

The sequence is here

http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20070609145742ywnews.html

Looks like the dark coloured boat should have done some mainsheet releasing.

[Concordia...41]

Wow! Great picture sequence.

I bet there was more than "Starboard" yelled :eek: :eek:

- M

[Ian McColgin]

The blue boat owes a bit more than a 360.

[Concordia...41]

The blue boat owes a bit more than a 360.

1440?

2880?

[capnharv]

Hey, that happened to me once!

I was driving a Blanchard 33 on S/B tack when somebody in a little smaller boat decided to play chicken and try to psych me into tacking early. I didn't and his mainsheet jammed and he plowed into me just like the photos (at about 4 kn). And, just like in the photos, I shoved his bow off the boat.

Unfortunately, neither boat got fixed up after that.

Good pics.

Harvey

[bamamick]

in Cleveland. Wound up costing the port tack boat some glass and gelcoat, as well as about $8K worth of rig and boom. Not a fun day on the water.

Mickey Lake

[Figment]

Good on S for trying to evade a bit. According to the writeup they tacked into the situation, but there was clearly plenty of opportunity for P to avoid.

Why the F flag? Class designation, or is that a UK protest convention?

[Paul Fitzgerald]

The white boat had just tacked across the blue boats bow, called starboard and didnt give blue time to avoid the collision.
Who is in the wrong?

[Figment]

IF S didn't give P time to avoid, they tacked too close and are penalized.

I don't think this was the case here, though.
In the first pic P is at least half a boatlength away, and by the look of the wake of S they had more warning than that. That's more than enough time to avoid, particularly at a national event.

[Ian McColgin]

My memory of the rules is a bit out of date but it used to be a tactic. When two boats are port with leeward leading a bit, if the lee boat has time to tack and get full and bye on starboard, the other boat must tack or duck clear. No bloody excuses, racing is all about close order maneuver.

[Figment]

damn right. As soon as the sails are full and drawing after the tack it's TACK COMPLETE! STARBOARD BOAT! at the top of your lungs. Hopefully you had the courtesy to hail that you were tacking beforehand, but that's a case by case basis depending on who's driving the port boat. I've known a few who would hunt down into the tacking boat if given warning.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Folkboats aren't J24's when it comes to turning. There is no way the blue boat could bear away in that situation as she would take out the white boat anyway.
There is no way you could crash tack in that much water in a folkboat, I used to sail one.
I think the white boat would lose a protest in a room full of folkboat skippers.
And I also doubt an insurer would support a claim against the blue boat, under Colregs.

[Ian McColgin]

I somewhat disagree with Paul.

I've sailed Folks and their near cousin the Kings Cruiser and found them perfectly nimble for good aggressive competition. Of late, I've mostly raced full keel schooners.

Whatever the class, if we're port and port with the other on my lee bow anything like far enough off that she could tack and be full, I keep an eye, and I expect anyone to weather of me to do the same. I've forced tacks and been forced. You have enough time if you're alert. Sometimes the lee boat will fake start a tack to get the weather boat off.

Anyway, Paul's right that the blue boat may not have had time to duck. Should have tacked.

[Hwyl]

It's tough to know given the foreshortening of the scene by the telephoto lens. As I said in the first post. I think the fact that the mainsheet of the blue boat does not seem to be released is an indicator that they were unprepared to bear away. It still seems tight in the last picture.

Yes the "F" flag is class designation.

[The Bigfella]

Hey, that happened to me once!



Hey, I did that once - fortunately I was on Starboard, but was going a lot faster than that - at a guess 15 knots minimum.

Sailing the Tornado at the Jail Sail at South West Rocks - a shallow bay. We were hit by a 30+ knot Southerly and the waves were quite sharp and large. We screamed over the top of a 12' + wave just in time to see a Hobie 16 on port tack. I most certainly would have thrown a tack if I had had time - but didn't - at least I screamed "Stbd" before I hit him. We were very lucky no-one was injured.

I punched a hole in his hull and another in his mainsail. He got back to shore with a hull full of water - then had the hide to get stroppy with me.

[MarkC]

I most certainly would have thrown a tack if I had had time - but didn't - at least I screamed "Stbd" before I hit him.

- then had the hide to get stroppy with me.

Sorry, but it sounds like you were in the wrong - you were not in controll of your boat. That is my jury decision!

But from the catamaran races I have seen - you must expect collissions!

Cats are great for long-distance hauls (say, jetty to jetty) - but over a set course it is just silly carnage, with broken bits, rudders floating off, swearing, cursing.

[rbgarr]

There is (or was) a race in Newport, RI called "The Candy Store Cup". It is sailed in Shields sloops like mine. I happened to be in town one Labor Day and was invited to join a crew for the race.

I knew nothing about the race or its peculiarities, but it soon became clear that it was to resemble bumper cars more than anything else. The starting line was between a moored boat and the end of a gas dock, perhaps four boat lengths long. About twelve 30 foot Shields were in the race, mostly overcrowded with crew members dressed in coats and ties with several boats sporting young children and a few with babies. The normal rules of boat racing did not seem to apply. One boat started about ten seconds early to avoid the collisions at the too short starting line where there were several port-starboard boardings of the kind seen between the two Folkboats above. People just pushed the other boats off and continued on. The course was a loop around the speed buoys lining the perimeter of the inner harbor, but many simply ignored the buoys and cut inside them and among the moored mega yachts scraping competitors off when possible.

All very jolly and whatwhat. The real intent seemed to be to get back to the bar ASAP. The crew that started early was roundly congratulated for their cleverness.

I just wish I'd had a camera to record the goings on. I was dumbstruck.

[bamamick]

Way, way in the wrong. As soon as your sails are full you are tacked. The port boat hasn't even tried to avoid. I am thinking that the starboard boat didn't enter into the helm's line of vision until the last moment. Mr.Port may have had more pressure just then or was lifting up and it blocked his view somewhat. Or the crew just lost the starboard boat. It happens all the time.

Folkboats look pretty tough. Looks like both boats kept on sailing.

Mickey Lake

[The Bigfella]

Sorry, but it sounds like you were in the wrong - you were not in controll of your boat. That is my jury decision!



You'd need to convince me there Mark. Yes - I know I have an obligation to avoid a collision - but there's also the onus on the port tack boat to do so too. I doubt he saw me until my bow came through the tear in his mainsail. I saw him as we both arrived at the crest of the wave from different directions - with a very high closing speed. It was a big crunch. It was years back now - and I can't remember whether we finished or not - I think we did - but the conditions were atrocious. We had a relatively small hole in one bow - much less damage than the other boat.

The only other time I raced the Tornado in similar, near survival, conditions was in a State Championship on Botany Bay in a big Southerly. We lost the wind indicator off the bridle between the bows - about 3' - 4' up from the water when we ploughed into one wave. Lots of the boats suffered damage in that race - including one where the crew on trapeze lost his footing and smashed through the side of the hull. It was the only race I've ever sailed in where the crew requested a retirement. The request bordered on mutiny.

[Figment]

"the crew on trapeze lost his footing and smashed through the side of the hull."

I've had my share of trapeze mishaps, but OUCH!! that had to leave a mark!

[Gary E]

Sailboat drivers...:D :D

and they have the nerve to criticize power boats...

[Henning 4148]

Permission to come aboard, Sir?

NOOOO!!!!

[The Bigfella]

"the crew on trapeze lost his footing and smashed through the side of the hull."

I've had my share of trapeze mishaps, but OUCH!! that had to leave a mark!


Marks - plural - a smashed in side on the boat and a lot of bruises

[capnharv]

In the collision I was involved in, the port tack boat's mainsheet jammed and they could not bear away. They should have been ready to ease it, but they didn't.

I'm thinking the same thing may have happened here.

Harvey

[rbgarr]

Both skippers staged it so they could star in a long running WBF thread.

[Henning 4148]

Apart from the fact, that the pictures are quite spectacular and that it is a good thing that apparently no one was hurt, it is down to the race committee to decide on fault (if any). Yes, it looks like a simple port - starboard collision, but with photos, you only see what is on the photo and not, what is not on the photo. Photos only give a (distorted) section of reality. The whole sequence starts when the boats are (rough guess) approx. 3 metres apart, that is less than half the length of a folkeboat.

And of course - things like this accident happen in races. Never had an accident like that myself yet, but it can happen from one moment to the other. It's very easy to overlook another boat ... . Apart from the obvious, it being difficult to see because of your own sails, it may have been hidden by another boat which is not on the photos.

The other thing is - did the helm of the white boat see it coming (the one in the dark boat apparently didn't or wasn't in control ...)? And if so - why didn't he avoid the collision and protest? Even if you have right of way, it's not clever to stand in harms way or bring your crew in harms way ... In terms of your position in a race, having the other doing a 360 is far more efficient than having a collision ...

[Ian McColgin]

When one reads the article, one learns that the white boat not only saw the blue, but called, "Starboard." The blue boat had an obligation to duck to tack. It's pretty clear that there was not space to duck, so he should have tacked. The fact that he did not, was not even preprared to, tells me that the blue skipper was not competant or attentive enough for the circumstances, and certainly deserves a penalty. White was full and bye and bears no blame.

It's perfectly legitimate to tack when you are clear enough to get full and bye and legitimate whether you just plain want to or you want to force the other boat over. That's part of what rules are for.

I hope never to be racing in a fleet where anyone has the least sympathy for the blue skipper's utter indifference.

[Figment]

"utter indifference" seems unwarranted, Ian.
Blue helmsman made a quick-judgement call, it turned out to be the wrong one. Not the first, not the last.

[bamamick]

It happens. Of course we all have to anticipate that these things will happen in a race, and sometimes we even have crashes in these races and that's a part of it too. That's why we carry liability. Still, the jib is still block to block on the port boat and it just doesn't look to me as if anyone saw the white boat. You know how your mind is working up the course in a race? Sometimes you have a blind spot and this kind of thing happens.

Mickey Lake

[Henning 4148]

No sympathy from my side for either of the two, independent of "right of way" and "who has to pay" (often in racing everyone pays for his own damage, so the richer guys can afford to sail bolder).

A collision like that is the worst solution for everyone involved, especially if someone gets injured (as didn't happen here but that was plain luck. It was plain luck, that the mast didn't come down as the boat apparently was hit behind the shrouds and not on the shrouds. The situation was completely uncontrollable). Insisting on the right of way and sailing into a T-bone collision didn't give the white boat any advantage, an emergency tack and a protest would have given some. Sorry, but bloody dangerous and not clever, racing is about gaining advantages to improve your position and not about wasting time in accidents. And - the pictures only show the last 3 metres before the collision and not enough area around.

Don't know about the level of competence in a Folkeboat fleet, but I would guess you will find anything from so - so sailors to expert racers. When you sail in a fleet like that, you can expect anything, including other boats not knowing the rules.

An approach I learned ages ago when riding motorbike - always expect others to make mistakes.

On the other hand - it's not my problem and I am not making it mine. I do some racing here and there and sometimes things do get close. So far without being involved in accidents. Fingers crossed. One day it can happen to me too, but I will try to avoid it.

[George Roberts]

"utter indifference" is a great phrase and certainly proper.

If these boats were not in a race, the skippers would not have sailed so close, would have been more attentive, and would have yielded.

But the word "race" carries so much historic baggage - people come to watch the carnage.

[John B]

While I agree with some things that have been said, its clearly a pt stbd because Hwyl said so after reading the article ,which said so, and it looks like one and it is one.
Some of you are forgetting that unlike the recent AC match racing incident, a right of way boat also has an obligation to hold its course. Yes you want a trigger finger on the helm because there's numb nuts and incompetents out there but never the less ,you must hold a course.
We've had a few incidents like this in our local classics racing ,but only one very serious one in the last 30 years.
In a nutshell, it was a port stbd exactly like this one ,but the stbd boat did not hold a course and that confused the helmsman on the port boat who then altered course as well. Like two drunken old men wandering toward each other on a footpath, they stepped into each other exactly like the photo above.
The 54 ft boat ramped up the cockpit of the 43 ft boat poking its bowsprit through the clew of the main and then shredding that and the topping lift out until it collected the backstay and broke off its sprit. The bow and sprit hanging on the backstay tensioned up the other rig like a bow and when it let go ( the rig stayed up) it shocked nearly every seam and joint in the boat ( Prize.. 43 ft)requiring a major and extensive overhaul.

the 54ftr, Rawhiti, is one of the boats I've been photo documenting over in Building/repair as its restored and the supposition is that this collision is what caused the broken stem( since replaced in its entirity.)

Insurance wise , I understand that fault was layed equally at both skippers.....
failure to hold course negated the stbd R.O.W.

[bamamick]

avoid a collision at all costs, and there has been more than one skipper who got a surprise in the commitee room for not attempting to avoid contact, but in my experience it is rare that that card gets played.

This seems rather straight forward to me. I really don't see any evidence that the guy in the white boat did anything wrong. I have been in both situations thousands of times and don't recall ever having a problem but twice. Once I got t-boned (threw the middle crew out of the boat) and once I was crewing on a Lightning where we t-boned someone. That was kind of an interesting case in that we had boats to weather and to leeward of us and we had a starboard crosser tack and try to cross with litle warning. After we were thrown out we discovered we could have called for an obstruction and forced the boat to weather of us to give us room (iirc). That one was sort of complicated.

Mickey Lake

[Figment]

Oh george, blow it out your ass.

[Ian McColgin]

For some, racing does indeed get the testosterone up. Shouting, penile gesticulation and all that. But racing is not much of a spectator sport except for a few prestige events at which there is little in the way of contact. No fans looking for crashes like NASCAR. A lot depends on the fleet and the level of competition, but nothing in the pictures or the account makes the white boat appear unduely aggressive to me.

The second picture shows the white boat's rudder hard down, like they've seen that the blue boat has no intention of giving way. The helm is up in the next picture, suggesting that white's skipper was trying to fish the boat past blue's bow. Good effort.

Does anyone know whether a foul this bad requires a protest and disqualificaiton or a withdrawal? Seems to me a voluntary turn does not meet the situation. Racing takes close attention to so many things - your own boat and others, total situation awareness.

In the Wianno fleet there was one boat of hackers a bit notorious for blythly bombing others. Some years ago we had a downwind port-starboard with them that, given the high wind and the danger of damage to whichever boat did not gybe away. They needed to protest hearing to get the idea that the rules are both about making tactics work safely.

By the way, despite my crack about NASCAR, those drivers also drive by rules and drive to an incredibly high standard.

Without rules and the tactical use of rules, a racing fleet cannot interact and might just as well go on a boat parade.

There can be lots of reasons the blue boat failed to respond, but they are just that, reasons. Not justificaitons. The blue skipper can learn a lot about a skipper's duty from this.

[rbgarr]

Does anyone know whether a foul this bad requires a protest and disqualificaiton or a withdrawal? Seems to me a voluntary turn does not meet the situation. Racing takes close attention to so many things - your own boat and others, total situation awareness.

AFAIK...

If the port tack boat is at fault i.e., the starboard tack boat did not tack too close, etc., she risks disqualification under Rule 14 if damage is done even if she does penalty turns (I think :D )

If 'serious' damage is done, one or both boats (I'm not clear who is burdened) should retire per Rule 44.