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ishmael
07-05-2007, 11:50 PM
I found this an interesting statement. I don't agree with all of it, from my experience there is a thread of homosexuality which runs through us which has nothing to do with religion or lust. What he is speaking to, in the words he has now, is how wrong much of his was. And how wrong much of what the culture pumps as normal is.

I'll be curious the reaction.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487

P.S. Please don't get seduced by the Christian rhetoric, read into what he's saying.

BrianW
07-05-2007, 11:59 PM
There's no gayness in me. Never has been either. Although I was 'solicited' once in Norfolk Va by a Navy guy. :)

ishmael
07-06-2007, 12:20 AM
This topic almost always brings out the defensiveness in heterosexual men. "Well I've never..." That's fine. It's understandable. The apologists for rampant gayness say you're repressing and projecting, and there may be a bit of truth in that, but most of it's hooey. There's a native sort a eew in most men.

The author's point, one of them, is that there is a recruiting that has happened. Young people, confused about EVERYTHING, have been particularly open to recruitment.

Personally, I lust after women. Seems natural enough to me, which is where his arguments about lust break down in Christian apology. That's not all I do by any measure. I also imagine the women I meet to be good, strong women. The few times I've simply lusted and had it fulfilled were a mess.

It may be a symptom of age, but I find women attractive and can imagine being sexual with them without pursuing it. I can be their friends, yak about this stuff, live a different life with them than portrayed on the idiot screen of our lives.

PatCox
07-06-2007, 12:24 AM
Ish, you have to decide which kind of sexuality you are not practicing.

LeeG
07-06-2007, 12:29 AM
It may be a symptom of age, but I find women attractive and can imagine being sexual with them without pursuing it. I can be their friends, yak about this stuff, live a different life with them than portrayed on the idiot screen of our lives.

there are a lot of different filters for sale at Home Depot. None of them work for this collection of words.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
07-06-2007, 12:37 AM
I think the article is wrong. He says "there is no homosexual "desire" that is apart from lust." In some/many gay relationships (as in some/many hetero/straight relationships), true, it is lust, not love. (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...) But there are gay couples who are truly in love. In fact, there sometimes exists love between two men or two women without any sexual relationship. They just care about each other. Now in his case, perhaps a straight man who was exploring his sexuality, perhaps it was just lust. But now he is judging everyone else by his experience. Typical tunnel vision. Or rationalization.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
07-06-2007, 12:42 AM
It may be a symptom of age, but I find women attractive and can imagine being sexual with them without pursuing it. I can be their friends, yak about this stuff, live a different life with them than portrayed on the idiot screen of our lives.

What did Mr. Spock say? "Sometimes having is not as satisfying as wanting." or words to that effect.

BrianW
07-06-2007, 12:55 AM
McCoy used to say...

"Damn it Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a...."

ishmael
07-06-2007, 01:05 AM
According to Freud, who has colored all our existence in the West in ways huge, the sine qua non of human existence is the full genital relationship between a man and a woman. A strict materialist, Freud is hard to argue with these days. That is the closest we get to reunion.

I, having loved with great passion, can only argue from some other experience I can't quite place, yet. I don't think that's the only way it's available.

Neither here nor there in the current discussion. I like, and stick by what Jung said when asked about homosexuality. Some are made, some are born. Our current problem in this regard is in encouraging the making.

BrianW
07-06-2007, 01:11 AM
Neither here not there in the current discussion. I like, and stick by what Jung said when asked about homosexuality. Some are made, some are born.

Yet none have been born, from those that have been made.

(Well, not without modern science.) :)

Sorry for messing around on your thread. Perhaps I'll read the link. ;)

ishmael
07-06-2007, 01:15 AM
Oh, you must read the link! Silly you! LOL.

Reading "Birdsong" about the trench warfare of WWI, homosexual images crop up--or what we see as homosexual. Young men, en extremis, hold one another, are tender with one another, in ways that are mistaken for sexuality at times.

I've mentioned this before. Looking at war photographs from the American Civil War, of the cadre, there's obvious physical affection. You've got a photo of the third Plutonian brigade, and they're all over each other with hugs and affection.

I think the current un-closeting of homosexuality has made us less close. I remember a friend going to hug me in a MA town and me saying, "Oh, better not do that here, people might talk." I was sorta kidding, but sorta not. Very too bad.

We'll get past it, I suppose.

Joe (SoCal)
07-06-2007, 07:09 AM
This topic almost always brings out the defensiveness in heterosexual men. "Well I've never..." That's fine. It's understandable. The apologists for rampant gayness say you're repressing and projecting, and there may be a bit of truth in that, but most of it's hooey. There's a native sort a eew in most men.

The author's point, one of them, is that there is a recruiting that has happened. Young people, confused about EVERYTHING, have been particularly open to recruitment.

I'm probably as hetero as Brian but I have no issues with gay men or women. I have homosexual relatives and they seem to be the ones I get along with best. I have gay friends and clients and again they are some of the ones I get along best with. I think they left their hang-ups and defenses a long time ago, and hell they are usually happy and fun, maybe thats where they get the word GAY from ;) They also seem to be the brightest and most literary, artistic and hell a couple of homosexuals in a depressed community can really raise the housing market, they are wonderful home owners.

I do think some are born and some are made. I know a few that the Flame burns so bright that when they left their momma's womb so fast with their hands flailing saying I am never going near such a thing again :D

I have never had a homosexual experience I have been hit on but never have I ever felt the least bit physically attracted to a man. Just not my cup of tea and I'm way less homophobic than someone like lets say Cleek ;) I think gays should be able to get married and adopt kids, although I do think some ( I know for a fact ) have adopted children for appearances and to one up The Straits, but then again I know heterosexual couples that do the same so what's the big difference.

Live and let live is my thoughts on it.

huisjen
07-06-2007, 07:28 AM
I'm pretty sure that if I say anything about anyones sexual attraction to Freud and Jung, someone will just tell me to lay off.

If one thinks about sex this much, but has issues which prevent persuing it, one is really really really mentally ill.

Dan

Popeye
07-06-2007, 07:47 AM
gay guys always have nice curtains

ishmael
07-06-2007, 07:59 AM
Anyone caught Simon Shama's series on western art? It's been broadcast on our PBS. Each hour he takes a tour deeply into one particular artist. He's very good, very erudite, and always opens my eyes to things I didn't understand about artists I'd thought I understood pretty well.

The last I saw was on Bernini, and it focused on his sculpture, The Ecstasy of St. Teresa. Very fine yakking, if you get a chance. He's got the back story and tells it well.

Dan, I wish you well. Your amateurish, long distance diagnoses of my neuroses belong to you, not me, and don't really surprise me. I've come to see them as kinda quaint. Just the fact that you see me as obsessed with sex speaks volumes. Probably five percent of what I write here is about sex, yet it's what you focus on.

LeeG
07-06-2007, 08:16 AM
Oh, you must read the link! Silly you! LOL.


I think the current un-closeting of homosexuality has made us less close. I remember a friend going to hug me in a MA town and me saying, "Oh, better not do that here, people might talk." I was sorta kidding, but sorta not. Very too bad.

We'll get past it, I suppose.

Jack, you sound like an idiot if the topic has any meaning to you. But it's obvious it doesn't, it's just a method for getting validation that you exist.

Ok,,you exist.

next topic.

ishmael
07-06-2007, 08:27 AM
"Jack, you sound like an idiot if the topic has any meaning to you. But it's obvious it doesn't, it's just a method for getting validation that you exist."

Obvious it doesn't? How do ya calculate that, Lee? I think I've posited important questions in this thread, and yes, sometimes I post as a means to validation-- or at least good argument--but I'll admit I like validation.

Getting back to one of the original questions. Is there an agenda which recruits our mussy headed youth into homosexuality? That's the position of the author of the linked piece, who is in a better position to know than I, and I assume, you are. I'm with him, I don't think it a good thing. Is that important enough for ya?

Oh, and I am a fool, but not an idiot.

Wild Dingo
07-06-2007, 11:40 AM
Okay Jack... I read the thread first then took a look at the link... got halfway through it and the recurring thought was


BULLBLOODYSHYTE!! :mad: :mad:


Gay people are people who love deeply people of the same sex... just as hetrosexual people love deeply people of the opposite sex... he found god? due to an intestinal problem related to his sexual activities?? BULLSHYTE!

Homosexuality is not something that you can switch on and off at will just as hetrosexuality isnt... although there are the bisexuals and the transsexuals and the others... but here were talking about someone who proportedly was a raging homosexual for many years... and found god but made the illuminating discovery that his life was a sin of his own free will? yeah right... perhaps he was a bisexual but never gave himself the oppertunity to discover that fact? he determined at ayoung age that he was gay and outted himself at that point nothing further to say end of story... then years later he discovers god and hallelulia hes been a sinner but discovered that fact of his own free will after "thinking and praying"... yeah okay whatever dipstick

Okay what this sounds like is attention seeking... and pushing his own agenda and blowing his own horn to toot to a particular tune hes presently pushing

I know a fair few gay people both male and female mainly through my elder sister who is gay and has had the same partner for 36 years!! and mate a more loving happy well adjusted couple you will never meet... they are also pillars of the community and wonderful people... their freinds are the same... NOT ONE would say anything other than what Ive just said about that wakker and what he has to say

Why do you seem to waste so much time with this sort of thing? I mean you say you only post a small amount of sex related stuff here and yet these sorts of threads are more often than not started by you? Is it SO important to you to post such tripe as that idiot writes? and why is it SO important for you to get our responses to that posting?

Seriously mate I dont get it... your an intelligent bloke and have a very interesting life so why this shyte?

Popeye
07-06-2007, 12:16 PM
i once switched to decaf

but quickly switched back

Leon m
07-06-2007, 12:21 PM
OK I admit it ...I like flowers...and if you laugh I'll kick your A$$ ! :D

ishmael
07-06-2007, 12:28 PM
As I said at the outset, I don't agree with some of what the author says. I think he's trying after a different vision of homosexuality than he's been pushing. I think we should listen.

He's been there. I haven't. Isn't it worthwhile to hear what people who've been there think? His homosexual credentials are pretty impeccable, yet the liberal heteros get all worked up. This isn't our vision of homosexuality, or sexuality in general, so we're going to denigrate it as "too religious" or "too restrictive".

You guys work it out.

How sure are you of this, Shane?

"Homosexuality is not something that you can switch on and off at will just as hetrosexuality isnt."

Again, I'm with Jung on this. Some are born, some are made.

Popeye
07-06-2007, 12:28 PM
Yeah, but was it just because you were sifting through your own embarrassment and the disapproving "voices" of all you'd ever known?

no but , i once sifted through my basement and found a pair of vice grips i know i didn't own

Kaa
07-06-2007, 12:30 PM
As I said at the outset, I don't agree with some of what the author says. I think he's trying after a different vision of homosexuality than he's been pushing. I think we should listen.

I looked at the article, but it's too long and incoherent. Can you summarize what is that "different vision" of homosexuality and why we should listen to it?

Kaa

LeeG
07-06-2007, 12:34 PM
How do ya calculate that, Lee?

Getting back to one of the original questions. Is there an agenda which recruits our mussy headed youth into homosexuality?

Oh, and I am a fool, but not an idiot.

By your question asking if "our mussy headed youth" is being recruited into homosexuality. You dismiss in that sentence accepted understanding about human sexuality. You're smart enough to know otherwise so the bait is simply for banter but the validation is that you prefer stupidity.

Wild Dingo
07-06-2007, 12:37 PM
OK I admit it ...I like flowers...and if you laugh I'll kick your A$$ ! :D

:D :D :D :D :D ooooohhh yeah bring it on baby!! :D

Anyways back to the thread... okay what about them pro footballers an soccer players? eh what about them fellas? right bloody bunch of horses hooves them fellas!! run over the line they hoist each other up in the air give each other huggies oooh yeah gay pansies... and the soccer players? whoofters the lot of em!! tear their shirts off at the slightest chance just so when one of the other BLOKES catches em and gives em a man hug they can feel all their hot sweaty man boobs flamin whoofters

Right?... wrong... well okay some of them are... must be... but hey its male game its a mucho game its the thrill and excitement the bonding the tribal thing right? wrong... theyre gay

No seriously theyre gay as a row of tents... no really... and thats why I dont play the game... too many male male touchy feelies for my liking... see I reckon the game is run by gays... totally... I mean otherwise they would make sure that half the team were sheilas... like Alice... and the sheilas would be the goal kickers... ALWAYS!!... then when they kick a goal and run around and tear their shirts of and a bloke tackles them for the present "manhug" well... what more manly game could it be??? I for one would DEFINANTLY start playin football right quick!! but no its run by gays who get their jollies watchin two virile healthy studmuffins havin heaving manhugs then a crowd of men givin manhugs... yep football the game for gays

All the above was said with tongue firmly embedded in the cheek of the author... as true as it may seem... as true as it may be... its pure speculation based on watching the continual displays of man to man love and affection.

Personally Id rather half the team was like Alice... then Id REALLY watch EVERY game of footy on the idiot box... wouldnt miss a match... heck Id even get fit and start playin fro gawds sake!! :D

LeeG
07-06-2007, 12:39 PM
I'm getting a cup of coffee right now

Popeye
07-06-2007, 12:40 PM
For some folks, truth is only dependent on faith and belief.

i have a belief in science and faith in my calculator , either one could be wrong , possible .. but not probable

ishmael
07-06-2007, 12:47 PM
Kaa,

I can't speak to the made homosexual, the one who is that way from birth, which I believe exists in a small percentage. But the created homosexual is clearly a desire for the male, the father. It's transfered onto the sexual relationship quite easily in the man because such lust is without consequence.

I'm like Joe and Brian. I've never felt that way sexually. Yet I understand it as a need to be with the father. Insofar as that is what is going on, it's neurotic, not true to the person. I think that's a summary of the better parts of the author's intention, without the religious overtones. I hope--as he's clearly bright--that he gets beyond his crutch of religion and simply says, I'M NOT GAY!"

Again, I have nothing against homosexuality in the equation if it's true. But the ones who are there neurotically deserve some help with this.

ishmael
07-06-2007, 01:03 PM
Golly, too much information passing by. Thanks, it's sorta edifying at times.

All I can say for sure is that I like women's sex. Maybe it's because I've never been fond of blow jobs, but the thought of sex with a man gives me the heebees. I think there is an argument to be made for man and woman being the way of nature.

What about this notion of recruitment of muzzy headed youth? Does it matter? If I had a young'un it would if I sensed the sex was moving away from their native. And the experimentation!

You guys tell me. You seem to have all the answers.

Kaa
07-06-2007, 01:24 PM
I can't speak to the made homosexual, the one who is that way from birth, which I believe exists in a small percentage. But the created homosexual is clearly a desire for the male, the father.

Clearly..? That's not so clear to me at all. Or, let's put it this way -- this is exactly the equivalent of a statement that when boys try to get girls into bed, that's "clearly" a desire to have sex with their mothers.


It's transfered onto the sexual relationship quite easily in the man because such lust is without consequence.

Ismael! Wake up! You know, humanity has invented such thing as the Pill. Not to mention IUDs, patches, etc. etc. The "lust without consequence" has been the main theme of the conservative whining about the sexual revolution, feminism, women's lib, and all that kind of things. If you go back 40 years or so you'd find tons of complaining precisely about that "problem".

Actually, in the post-AIDS world I suspect the heterosexual sex is more "without consequence" than male homosexual sex... :-)


Again, I have nothing against homosexuality in the equation if it's true. But the ones who are there neurotically deserve some help with this.

Huh? What's special about homosexuals in this context? What about males who sleep with women out of a neurotic desire for a mother figure? Don't they "deserve some help with this"?

Kaa

Popeye
07-06-2007, 01:27 PM
Maybe it's because I've never been fond of blow jobs

houston we have a problem

Kaa
07-06-2007, 01:30 PM
houston we have a problem

:D :D You want to fix that problem, Popeye? :D :D

Kaa

Popeye
07-06-2007, 01:34 PM
http://www.railroad-mania.com/TopTen/Layouts/files/train_in_tunnel.jpg

rocket blasts off , smoke stack falls over ..

ishmael
07-06-2007, 02:29 PM
I should have said in the made male homosexual it's clearly out of a desire for the father. Lesbians are more complex. But, aside from that I stand by it.

Keith Wilson
07-06-2007, 02:46 PM
Please don't get seduced by the Christian rhetoric, read into what he's saying.But Jack, there's really nothing there but Christian rhetoric. If you take that out, the whole article evaporates, leaving nothing but a small residue of confusion.

FWIW, very little he says corresponds with what gay male friends of mine have said. Both are very small samples, so generalizations are likely to be wrong.

huisjen
07-06-2007, 03:52 PM
Jack, you sound like an idiot if the topic has any meaning to you. But it's obvious it doesn't, it's just a method for getting validation that you exist.

Bingo.

brad9798
07-06-2007, 04:36 PM
NO ONE who is REALLY homosexual CHOOSES to be ... just ask them.

ishmael
07-06-2007, 04:42 PM
Phew, Dan agrees. My point is made.

Keith, reread the piece. If he displaced God and used Tao instead would you react the same way?

As I said, I find much to disagree with in what he says. But it's an interesting confession from a former advocate for homosexuality. What he realized was sometimes it is a choice, and it's not our place to fiddle with it. That's how I read it, anyway.

ishmael
07-06-2007, 04:47 PM
"NO ONE who is REALLY homosexual CHOOSES to be ... just ask them."

I have asked them. Have you? Some do choose it. The male homosexual culture in particular is hugely a matter of choice. Not wholly, but there are many men at the bathhouse out of lust, as the article says.

Don't like it? Have a talk with the editor.

PatCox
07-06-2007, 05:07 PM
Ish appears to have grown to disapprove of all sex, hetero and homo, perhaps because he has forgotten what its like. The only pure relationship is the one between a man and his cat.

ishmael
07-06-2007, 05:27 PM
"From this, you make the conclusion that some homosexuality is voluntary."

Nah, I've hung out with homosexuals from time to time. My take is based on a variety of experiences and sources. At the risk of being labeled a liberal, I've really liked hanging with them at times. Why...some of my best friends...LOL.

How 'bout you, what is your experience, Norm?

P.S. I think the tone this conversation has taken bespeaks an interesting moralizing which is largely hidden.

P.P.S." Ish appears to have grown to disapprove of all sex, hetero and homo" Now what has little ol' me said which gives you that impression? It seems to me those who refuse to look with any honesty are the ones who don't approve. I gave you license to maunder on about an eighteen year old model, Pat, so don't go calling me a prude.

L.W. Baxter
07-06-2007, 05:38 PM
Always a chuckle to see the "enlightened" men who "have no problem" with homosexuality first making their disclaimers about not being attracted to other men.

Memphis Mike
07-06-2007, 05:44 PM
All this thread needs is some Jungian catawumpus toes.

Nicholas Scheuer
07-06-2007, 05:54 PM
Like some guys have the "classic, macho" muscular/skeletal structure, and some (lots, like me) of guys don't, sexuality varies right in there amongst all of that.

Getting bent out of shape when we encounter Gay people is nutty. All I really care about as far as sex is concerned is my wife. If she just up and says she's "Lesbian" some day, I'm gon'na be REAL upset, unless she adds that she "swings both ways"; which I can probably deal with.

Moby Nick

ishmael
07-06-2007, 06:04 PM
"Therefore, I do what I always do, which is to listen to, and respect, the opinions of experts whose evidence isn't merely anecdotal... and they all agree that there's no such thing as a 'made' homosexual, in the sense you describe it."

Jung, few remember, was a practicing psychotherapist, one of the most astute ever. He analyzed thousands. A portion of his schedule was people who had sex identity issues. His observations have had an impact on my own, but only as a reinforcer, not as a dictate. After long contemplation, he believed some homosexuals are made and some are born. This was revolutionary at a time when homosexuality was considered an illness. I've seen nothing in my experience which contradicts this master of human observation.

O, cat toes. They are asexual. That wumpous allows me to rub them is an emblem of trust and basic sensuality that has nothing to do with sex. When we grow up we are able to differentiate the two.

PatCox
07-06-2007, 06:12 PM
Yes, once we grow up and our seperate personalities mature and become distinct.

Memphis Mike
07-06-2007, 06:20 PM
"Therefore, I do what I always do, which is to listen to, and respect, the opinions of experts whose evidence isn't merely anecdotal... and they all agree that there's no such thing as a 'made' homosexual, in the sense you describe it."

Jung, few remember, was a practicing psychotherapist, one of the most astute ever. He analyzed thousands. A portion of his schedule was people who had sex identity issues. His observations have had an impact on my own, but only as a reinforcer, not as a dictate. After long contemplation, he believed some homosexuals are made and some are born. This was revolutionary at a time when homosexuality was considered an illness. I've seen nothing in my experience which contradicts this master of human observation.

O, cat toes. They are asexual. That wumpous allows me to rub them is an emblem of trust and basic sensuality that has nothing to do with sex. When we grow up we are able to differentiate the two.

Now we're talkin.

brad9798
07-06-2007, 06:40 PM
I have talked to several, Ish ... and they, to a person, would not wish their lives on anyone ... :(

ishmael
07-06-2007, 06:59 PM
Brad,

It's been awhile since I rubbed shoulders with the homosexual crowd, but when I did I didn't have the sense of remorse or difficulty you say. It was in Baltimore, and there was a pretty vibrant homosexual community there, so that may be a difference. I can't speak to personal struggles, but they were just homosexual, and no more unhappy about it than anyone else. Where you live may be very different.

I used to run into John Waters at the grocery. He's a funny advocate for being gay, is adamantly opposed to gay marraige while being about as flaming as you can be without a tiara. I think he's one who was born that way. We had just a nodding acquaintance. I wish I'd talked to him a bit! I've got a pretty face and I might have wrangled into one of his films on a promise. LOL.

Keith Wilson
07-06-2007, 09:04 PM
but there are many men at the bathhouse out of lust, as the article says. LOL! And why else would they be there? Not to take a bath, that's for sure! :D Seriously, if they were straight they'd be at the bar trying to pick up a woman, or at the brothel hiring one. And if you took out the MEM God stuff in that article, most of it really would vanish. You couldn't subititute the Tao, or the Dharma, or anything other than the old judgemental father sky-god and have it make any sense at all. One way or another, I wish the guy well and I hope he finds a way that works for him.

ishmael
07-06-2007, 11:12 PM
Keith,

Read about gay bath houses and get back to me. Naivete is no excuse from now on.

Lew Barrett
07-06-2007, 11:31 PM
Keith,

Read about gay bath houses and get back to me. Naivete is no excuse from now on.

I wouldn't necessarily say that promiscuity is solely a male attribute, but men don't get castigated, rebuked, whispered about behind their backs or stoned for being promiscuous as frisky women do. Remember college? Take all comers, and let no opportunity go unexplored.

This reminds me of the old joke about why a dog licks his balls. In short, homosexual men go to bath-houses because they can. If such a thing existed for heterosexuals, you can be sure they would be taking reservations months in advance.

Jack, what's so hard to understand? They're men; you know born to spread seeds. What goes on there isn't to my taste, and clearly not to yours, but it's easy to grock; they're busy because they can be.

PatCox
07-07-2007, 12:09 AM
I've never felt the need to read about, understand, or philosphize about homosexuality, I suppose because I don't see it as a problem. I am interested in exploring things like criminality, authoritarianism, and such because they are problems in need of a solution.

But on some level, the need Ish seems to feel to explore the "why" and "what" of homosexuality seems to presuppose that there is something bad about it.

Lew, you are right on, I stopped wondering about what appeared to be the overpowered sexuality of homosexual males, what with glory holes and bathhouses, until I realized that was what ALL sexuality would be like if men and women were the same. If the female and the male sex drives were the same, there would be glory holes in every restroom in the land.

Chris Coose
07-07-2007, 08:48 AM
This article indicates that people can change.
I'm pretty certain that I was born liberal and I am aware that might change.
I'm pretty certain I was born with a predisposition to alcoholism and because I realized it was going to kill me, I changed.

brad9798
07-07-2007, 08:52 AM
Behavior can be modified, Chris! But you (like me) are still an alcoholic ... and you did not choose to be one.

We have chosen to not be ACTIVE! Just like many homosexuals choose to abstain.

:)

Keith Wilson
07-07-2007, 08:55 AM
Read about gay bath houses and get back to me. Naivete is no excuse from now on.Oh, give me a break, Jack. Ignorance is not the problem. I had one fairly good friend and one more peripheral one who used to go to them, starting in the pre-AIDS era when things were really loose.

I just found this line funny: "there are many men at the bathhouse out of lust, as the article says." - for there really isn't any conceivable reason to go to a bathhouse other than lust. That’s what they’re for. The MEM theology (for it’s common to all three religions) is at the heart of the article because "at the bathhouse out of lust" is intended to be a condemnation, a phrase describing something necessarily bad. Using the word "lust" (one of the seven deadly sins, no less) rather than "sexual desire" or "horniness" or "desire to get laid" or "wish to copulate" drags along 2000+ years of baggage.

Chris Coose
07-07-2007, 09:21 AM
Brad, I agree that all major life areas can be changed.
You and I might disagree on the relation to the word "choice".

Joe (SoCal)
07-07-2007, 09:30 AM
I have talked to several, Ish ... and they, to a person, would not wish their lives on anyone ... :(

Same here Brad. Fer christ sake I worked in the advertising, fashion, design business, I went to Art School in NYC trust me I have WAY more anecdotal evidence of gay people than Ish and Jung combined. No way anyone is going to tell me that looking at some hairy mans ass makes you hot is a CHOICE. :rolleyes:

George Jung
07-07-2007, 09:58 AM
I have talked to several, Ish ... and they, to a person, would not wish their lives on anyone ... :(
Same here Brad. Fer christ sake I worked in the advertising, fashion, design business, I went to Art School in NYC

I haven't experienced the 'wide exposure' some here have; but I'd disagree with the absolutism claimed. I know several gay men (primarily through my GBIL, who lives in NYC); to a man, they enjoy, very much, being gay; but that's also why they live in NYC, for the embracing social environment. A few gays I know here in the Midwest are not so 'out', and while I've never discussed 'do you like being gay', I expect their response would be mixed. One guy in particular stands out; looks like a football player (he's a farmer/rancher), and is comfortable enough to joke around a bit (and trys to push folks buttons - just for fun, of course.) He's quite comfortable with who he is, but when you're 6'4" and 280, there's not much backlash. He's HIV positive, follows with an ID doc. He's been positive for several years, is on no meds, and shows ho sign of illness or progression. It's an aside, but interesting, nonetheless.

brad9798
07-07-2007, 10:58 AM
One fella, who is still a dear friend of mint ... I will call him 'Scott' never knew what a 'closet' was ... I always tell him not to stand too close, as I do not want to go up in flames ... YES- he is THAT flamboyant ...

He is also THAT miserable ... wishing and praying all the time that he was/is not gay! He's done a lot of drugs to escape his lifestyle ... to no avail.

He grew up in a very rural, good ol'boy setting ... on a large corn farm ... complete with cropdusters. We used to kid him that the cropdust messed him up ... and that he should have gone inside when the planes were overhead!!!

He knew he was different at age four or five ... when he finally told his father (when he was 15) ... his father was shocked!

In classic 'Scott' form ... he said: "Daa-ad, I've been decorating the house since I was seven!!!!"

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

But he is a very sad man ... :(

brad9798
07-07-2007, 10:59 AM
meant to say mine ... not mint. oops ...

ishmael
07-07-2007, 11:08 AM
Well, thanks for the interesting observations and for keeping it reasonably civil.

I'm interested in homosexuality because I'm interested in all human phenomena. Though the fervor seems to have died down a bit, it's still a salient issue, containing great emotion. I'm basically with Joe, live and let live, though I think he underestimates some of the basic elements of attraction involved.

As to the promiscuity, I'd be for closing the gay bath houses today! They are a public health hazard. In my younger days I was a bit promiscuous at times, but never with five strangers a night. This isn't simple male lust, this is an aberration, a party largely fueled by a rebel image and crank. Not a good thing, by anyone's measure. Ya think?

Lew Barrett
07-07-2007, 11:19 AM
Well, thanks for the interesting observations and for keeping it reasonably civil.
........ This isn't simple male lust, this is an aberration, a party largely fueled by a rebel image and crank. Not a good thing, by anyone's measure. Ya think?

Nope. Going on long before crank. Since recorded history. Think....Rome.

Regarding "nature or nurture." There may be a powerful argument for nurture in some cases, but we are friends with a family that has two sons, both good kids, by the way, and now both almost adults. We've known them since birth. One is straight, the other has been gay since birth. I'm not kidding. It was obvious from the first day he could walk and talk. Dad's been 100% present and a terrific father, Mom's a gem. One boy's all boy, the other one dances to a different beat and always has. Born that way.

There should be no high falluting moral judgements and finger pointing when discussing who's to blame. One simply can't say.

Singlegrandad
07-07-2007, 11:20 AM
There was a time not very long ago when to be gay was an honorable thing. Now these homo sexuals wnt to lie with one another as man and wife which is against nature. I wonder how one who sees my beautiful grand daughters would possibly want another man? It is certainly a mental illness.

Lew Barrett
07-07-2007, 11:30 AM
It's obvious, I think, how political and religous leanings drive one's view of this. In one respect if a gay or lesbian couple wishes to formalize their relationship and get married, it's the most honorable thing they could do. It automatically puts "the bath-house" behavior out to pasture. If one is married, the greater abuses of gay culture that are so odious to Ish are no longer acceptable, and monogamous rules apply. Isn't that how one must reasonably view vows?

George Jung
07-07-2007, 11:35 AM
Dutch? What you talking 'bout?

brad9798
07-07-2007, 11:39 AM
Shut up, grandad ... and from the other thread, have them dipped for fleas!!!!!

ishmael
07-07-2007, 11:46 AM
It's Dutch, Lew, just so ya knows.

And sure, it's nothing new. Rome, Greece, what have ya. What is new from my reading is the number of partners in a night at the bathhouse. There seems a crescendo of promiscuity at a time when any sensible person ought to be putting a lid on it. And it's affecting all of us. HIV and syphilis rates have spiked, not surprisingly. Many of these men are bisexual, so it's infecting the whole populous.

The Roman bachanal, the Greek orgy, have a place in the economy of the human psyche. You realize they were reserved for festival, not celebrated every night?

If I were king of the forest, I'd shut 'em down.

Lew Barrett
07-07-2007, 11:50 AM
And I was taking him seriously! Thanks Ish!

Memphis Mike
07-07-2007, 11:51 AM
I'm writing a letter to my congressman right now about the gay bath houses. They are disgusting and need to be closed immediately! They need to bathe at home like the rest of us do!:mad:

ishmael
07-07-2007, 12:15 PM
Make fun all you want. It's not funny when you are twenty, not sure what is what, and you catch a life threatening illness.

I'd close the bathhouses down whether it had to do with hetoro or homo sex. Prudence. It would be to the greater good. Bentham's utilitarianism, for all it's faults, has some good in its favor.

Joe (SoCal)
07-07-2007, 12:53 PM
Ish you've been hung up on gay bath houses for a loooooooooooong time now this is about your 20th essay on the subject.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Exactly where is the nearest Gay Bath House to you up in Maine? I think pedo-priest are probably more common up by you than crank using gay bath house men. :rolleyes:

Give it a rest it's not 1978 anymore, hell they even closed the Hetro Platos retreat YEARS and YEARS ago.

ishmael
07-07-2007, 01:03 PM
I'm not sure what you just said, Joe. A bit disjointed.

The issue of gay bath houses didn't go away. I'm not particularly focused on them, I don't think there is one here in Bangor, but I've never looked.

They are a public health hazard, and ought to be shut down. It has nothing to do with homosexuality, just a public health measure.

Maybe you haven't read about it, but riding bareback, sans condom, has become chic again. There's a buzz around that catching the bug is kinda cool! Kinda cool? What planet are these people on?

This is a sick manifestation of homosexual culture, seems to me. You want to be respected as a part of things, well get your act together and act responsibly.

And this is a huge part of the problem. Homosexuals, gay men in particular, still see themselves as rebels against the culture. Well fine, but don't expect me to pay your forty grand a year for the drugs to keep you alive when you do it.

Joe (SoCal)
07-07-2007, 01:03 PM
http://www.pcbg.com/Maine.html

ishmael
07-07-2007, 01:35 PM
Very nice, Joe. I'm glad we've moved from some sort of egalitarian society to where it's okay for homosexuals to discriminate again us breeders. Progress.

Those chic resorts ain't the bathhouses of Newyauk and San Fran.

Joe (SoCal)
07-07-2007, 01:41 PM
Very nice, Joe. I'm glad we've moved from some sort of egalitarian society to where it's okay for homosexuals to discriminate again us breeders. Progress.

Us breeders ??? Ish have you bred yet ;)

ishmael
07-07-2007, 01:54 PM
None, so far as I know.

Speaking of women, is the woman at your arm in the WBS fotos your new interest? Nice legs!

Uncle Duke
07-07-2007, 02:51 PM
So many questions, so little time.
For the love of God, please start looking for answers.

Speaking of women...
Which happened when? Where are you going with this?

... is the woman at your arm in the WBS fotos your new interest?
Ish, dude, I've been supportive of your questions for a long time - PM's, discussions on writing, etc. But - WTF? Where are you going with this, and why? I'm really confused and concerned here...
What does that have to do with anything in this thread (which, frankly, was never very focused except as (near as I can tell) some forum for you to blather about Freud/Jung and something else). Could you please, please, decide what the point is and get back to it?
Please?

ishmael
07-07-2007, 04:22 PM
When I punched in here, got a passport, no one said I had to make sense.

Kaa
07-07-2007, 08:28 PM
They are a public health hazard, and ought to be shut down. It has nothing to do with homosexuality, just a public health measure.

And how exactly are you going to go about it? What would the law to shut down the bathhouses look like? Are you going to criminalize promiscuity? You close down the bathhouses, the meat market will just move to different places. Maybe you want the government to regulate private house parties?

Kaa

Kaa
07-07-2007, 08:30 PM
Homosexuals, gay men in particular, still see themselves as rebels against the culture. Well fine, but don't expect me to pay your forty grand a year for the drugs to keep you alive when you do it.

Cool. Say I never exercise and weight 400 pounds. Can I expect you to pay that forty grand a year to keep me alive?

Kaa

ishmael
07-07-2007, 08:48 PM
"And how exactly are you going to go about it? What would the law to shut down the bathhouses look like?"

Pretty simple. This is illegal, you are shut down.

Oh there'd be yelps about civil liberties, but I think it would stand up in the courts. If it didn't, it should. It is a public health issue. These men aren't just fricking each other, they are moving back into the community.

It's interesting that the will to do this isn't there. If I were homosexual I'd want it too. The Dyanisian(sp) license works in rare circumstances, but this isn't one.

Kaa
07-07-2007, 08:53 PM
"And how exactly are you going to go about it? What would the law to shut down the bathhouses look like?"

Pretty simple. This is illegal, you are shut down.

What, exactly, is "this"?

Kaa

ishmael
07-07-2007, 09:05 PM
No more bath houses, period. You'd have to make allowances for legitimate spas where people actually go to bathe, but I don't see much problem.

I'm libertarian by nature, but at times the public health concerns over ride the individual's rights. This is one of them.

Figment
07-07-2007, 09:21 PM
You're libertarian by nature?
You're a loony.

Kaa
07-07-2007, 09:33 PM
No more bath houses, period. You'd have to make allowances for legitimate spas where people actually go to bathe, but I don't see much problem.

How about private clubs? Can I have a private club with a pool and showers?

Can I call my bath house a private club? Why not?

Kaa

Singlegrandad
07-07-2007, 10:28 PM
Ever since they invented modern public swimming pools, mankind has been plagued by many types of problems not seen before. Bacteria and virus thrive in wanton ways.

Singlegrandad
07-07-2007, 10:30 PM
Urine and feces particles abound in these places. Your chlorine is not proection against microscopic predators.

Wild Dingo
07-07-2007, 10:35 PM
When I punched in here, got a passport, no one said I had to make sense.

:D :D Well said and I notice you stick to and expound on that thesis daily ol mate ;)

Homosexuals until only recent years have had more laws imposed against them than most other groups of people within our societies and still do in many places... for one simple example gay men and women still even in 2007 cannot get married here (West Aussie) even if they have been a many year couple still our society discriminates against them and their choice of life partner.

They rarely if ever have an easy time of it when they "come out" generally speaking they are ostracized from family and friends more often than not... and as a consequence they are often abused physically by their parents in an effort to get them "to come to their sences"...

Then their are the homophobics within our societies... ever hear of gay bashing? more common than you would think for no other reason but that they are gay... some hetrosexual men and women will physically attack beat and maim a gay person for just being gay... and mentally they have to face the ignorance intollerance fear and negative stupidity of "hetrosexual" homophobics within their society.

They have to daily face the stupid pathetic irrational "fear" from hetrosexuals that believe that having a gay person around their little johnny or jenny will somehow corrupt their child into becoming a gay as well...

More parents of young gays turn their backs on their offspring when they finally get up the fortitude to say "dad mum Im gay" than those that hold them close and retain the love and affection for their child. Many HR departments still discriminate against gays for positions within their companies citing reasons that make their decision appear to be for other reasons... many gays get ostracized and abused in the workplace for no other reason than their sexuality... and most spend years and lifetimes apologizing to parents siblings and others for being gay!

DO YOU EVER APPOLOGIZE FOR BEING HETRO? no solely the realm of being "gay" you must forever be sorry and appologetic for not being "normal" instead of being accepted and love for simply being you... you havent changed inside you are still the same son daughter brother sister friend whatever you always were... you are simply gay thats all and therefore there should be no reason for appologise to anyone... for you as a gay are still you the person you always were.

Gay men in particular have never had an easy ride into their life choice... loneliness beatings isolation rejection are a common almost daily part of gay mens lives... not always but for many.

But when a gay man or woman finds their love their life partner there is no difference in that love than a hetrosexual who finds their love their life partner... none other than the physical... yet to our societies its appalling its demeaning its disgusting its repugnant...

I personally know gay couples men and women who have been partnered with the same person for longer than most hetrosexual couples and still show and profess the same endearing love for each other that they had in the very first spring of their lives together... 30 40 and more years together

Of course there is the steamer grittier side of homosexual life... just as their is the steamier grittier side of hetrosexual life no difference just the physical.

Homosexuality has been around and among us for as long as man and woman have walked upright as long as the lusting in the bathhouses have been around as long as the oldest profession has been in action it is nothing new it is the nature of man and woman for as long as man and woman have been man and woman

Even this thread and the bullshyte that promoted it is an aboration against one section of our society.

You dont like gays? your problem deal with it... you are not gay good on you... you were gay but now your not? bullshyte attraction is attraction you cant just turn it on and off like a bloody lightbulb!!... but at least allow those who are gay to live their life in peace harmony and without this type of crap.

Note here I am straight but have friends who are gay and I have been hit on quite a few times particularily when I was younger but never further than my saying "mate Im straight" from there on they are simply friends and some are the best of friends that I will stand up for and fight for at any time and have on occasion done so and will continue to do so for as long as society continues to denigrate and abuse them... they are people just as you and I and have the right to their choices in life just as you or I do.

There is one recurring theme I want to point out with all this... there are no differences between a hetrosexual and a homosexual other than sexual preference... thats it.

Most here including the most rabidly homophobic among us would agree that the greatest single goal of mankind is for lasting peace on this planet... right?

The single word method of acheiving that is...

Acceptance

Memphis Mike
07-07-2007, 11:14 PM
"Of course there is the steamer grittier side of homosexual life... just as their is the steamier grittier side of hetrosexual life no difference just the physical."

Best thing said here so far. It was nice putting a voice with a face the other day, Shane. I'm sorry you couldn't make it.:) You missed a really good time.

ishmael
07-07-2007, 11:34 PM
I think we've lost our common sense. Five partners in a night. You think on that, and don't discount it as some anti-homosexual rhetoric. It's happening every night.

Is this a good thing? Why is it happening? Do you want to put a lid on it? I think any rational culture would.

Memphis Mike
07-08-2007, 12:16 AM
I think we've lost our common sense. Five partners in a night. You think on that, and don't discount it as some anti-homosexual rhetoric. It's happening every night.

Is this a good thing? Why is it happening? Do you want to put a lid on it? I think any rational culture would.

Engaging you like trying to reason with a baby that doesn't understand sh!t.

This is the only source of attention you have.

Singlegrandad
07-08-2007, 06:13 AM
There are many ways to pass disease and germs from one body to another. The sexual organs are the culprits for many of mankinds ills. Now the schools want to inoculate girls so they may have more promiscuous sex partners and not become ill from it. I shudder to think what the world will be like for my beautiful grand daughters grand daughters.

Chris Coose
07-08-2007, 06:28 AM
"Put a lid on it" ??????
That would be about as successful as getting between you and a drink.
You think on that for a second.

"Why is it happening" ???
Let's ponder the proverbial answer to the question as to why a dog laps his ..........

ishmael
07-08-2007, 07:38 AM
"Sticks and stones"

I am a libertarian by nature, and I don't like the idea of the government patrolling people's lives. But there are cases where the government ought to step in. This is one of them. HIV infection rates, along with other SDS are back through the roof in this sub-culture, largely because of these sex clubs. Shutting them down would send a message, by the culture: Stop being idiots.

The last and only time I got married I had to submit to a Wasserman test to prove I was free of syphilis. It was an intrusion, a bit antiquated. But it was there because the disease at one time was a public health hazard.

Fascinating that the left jerks its knee so hard at what would be a sensible measure.

Chris Coose
07-08-2007, 07:53 AM
Let's close bar rooms. Lots more people get killed by drunk drivers and most of them are innocentof any connection to the drinking behavior that led to the death.
You are no libertarian. You have a specific agenda, driven by something other than safety.

ishmael
07-08-2007, 08:06 AM
Think what you want about me.

It's an interesting parallel, prohibition of alcohol in pubs, but it falls down on examination. People stopping into a pub for a beer after work are not a clear danger. People having sex with five strangers a night are. Do we sanction the guy who is at the pub for more than a couple and then attempts the drive home? You bet, and we should.

Difficult questions, and I shot from the hip when I called for the closure of these clubs. What, if anything, would you do, Chris?

Chris Coose
07-08-2007, 08:24 AM
It's live and let live in a free society friend.
My cousin died from AIDS in the very early days. He was a NYC Bowery tub crawler in the wildest sense.
Risks is what it comes down to. Are you willing to pay the price for your behavior?

Joe (SoCal)
07-08-2007, 08:27 AM
Urine and feces particles abound in these places. Your chlorine is not proection against microscopic predators.

AYUP :rolleyes:
S.O.D
Same Old Dutch
:p

Chris Coose
07-08-2007, 08:30 AM
It doesn't fall down upon examination. What about the homo who has sex with just a couple rather than 5? How bout the guy who stops in for a bath and does just one?
Spare me please. You really ought to take a close examination of your motives here.

Joe (SoCal)
07-08-2007, 08:34 AM
How about the corporate hetero married dad who take a little break from the everyday and pulls his BMW off the rest stop and brings home a little HIV for Mom. Just because he had to get a little strange on the way home one day.

I never understood that phenominon but I know from my gay friends that they get a lot of sex from suposedly strait guys.

Chris Coose
07-08-2007, 08:40 AM
And it ain't just in bath houses.
There are acouple parking lots I know in the Bangor area laoded with them just ready to do what ever you like.
Go to Graigslist and check out men for men then you tell me how you'll "put a lid on it".

huisjen
07-08-2007, 09:15 AM
Same Old Jack.

I think crazy people are a menace to the population and ought to be locked away from booze and boys and forced to take their lithium.

Dan

ishmael
07-08-2007, 09:38 AM
Well, shucks. This conversation has moved in interesting ways. The parking lots in Bangor will wait for other than me.

Have you ever been to a whore house? I was, once, in San Fran. I didn't partake, the ladies there just didn't do me much. Cheesy, kinda flocked velvet wallpaper ugly. But it was interesting just to go there. Take a walk on the wild side. San Fran at the time, probably still, had a very active tenderloin.

I talked yesterday, for the first time in twenty years, with an adolescent love interest. She's second married, four kids, and pretty well married this second time--the guy sounds like a keeper. We weren't lovers back when, but were for a brief visit when she was divorcing her first husband.

We knew something important back when. It was at a fantastic place, Mullett Lake, a resort community that was rampantly voluptuous. I was 17 and she was fourteen. It was sweet, without all the sexual baggage. Sex was in the air, but we sufficed kissing passionately. Walking hand in hand down to the bridge over the little stream, the banks awash with blue, blue forget me nots.

Courtship is a lost art, but it wasn't lost on us. I really believe, still, in these simple arts. The crass, the bathhouses, are always gonna offend me. Susan complimented me yesterday, in ways she can't comprehend, that I was a fine soul when we were courting.

ishmael
07-08-2007, 09:46 AM
Dan,

You'd be an interesting case on the couch. Freud's couch that is, and I mean it in the best way.

Wild Dingo
07-08-2007, 09:48 AM
Best thing said here so far. It was nice putting a voice with a face the other day, Shane. I'm sorry you couldn't make it.:) You missed a really good time.

Same from down this way Mike...always wondered what sound your voice had bein from Memphis an all... sorta Elvis sounding ol son ;) We are hoping things go well this coming year and well if they do... hope springs eternal Mike :D

LeeG
07-08-2007, 10:01 AM
I think we've lost our common sense. Five partners in a night. You think on that, and don't discount it as some anti-homosexual rhetoric. It's happening every night.

Is this a good thing? Why is it happening? Do you want to put a lid on it? I think any rational culture would.


this is the old Jack, writing a new "kick me" sign with every line.

ishmael
07-08-2007, 10:25 AM
Lee,

Your requiems, like Dan's psychological pronouncements, seem pretty dry, as in without life or water.

I'm just telling the truth as I see it. If you don't like it that's fine with me, but try to say something interesting in response rather than back handed personal attacks.

I know you're up to it, but I don't see it much from you.

Singlegrandad
07-08-2007, 12:03 PM
To imagine conjugal relations with another man makes no earthly sense. A nother mans penis holds no mysterious appeal to me. But a woman as beautiful as my grand daughters are worth every pondering notion imaginable.

Memphis Mike
07-08-2007, 01:44 PM
To imagine conjugal relations with another man makes no earthly sense. A nother mans penis holds no mysterious appeal to me. But a woman as beautiful as my grand daughters are worth every pondering notion imaginable.

You got any pics of em?

Singlegrandad
07-09-2007, 05:40 AM
You got any pics of em?
Yes I have many pictures of my beautiful grand daughters. But the best of all are in my own imagination.

Kaa
07-09-2007, 12:16 PM
Courtship is a lost art, but it wasn't lost on us. I really believe, still, in these simple arts. The crass, the bathhouses, are always gonna offend me.

Well, that's fine that you have such personal preferences.

But why are you willing to impose your personal preferences on other people? Do you think what offends you should offend everyone? the simple arts that you believe in are what everyone should believe it?

Finding something distasteful/offensive is one thing. Insisting that this is enough reason for making a crime of it is something else.

Kaa

Popeye
07-09-2007, 12:57 PM
Finding something distasteful/offensive is one thing. Insisting that this is enough reason for making a crime of it is something else.

my my my , a 'so be it' guy .. for now:rolleyes:

ishmael
07-09-2007, 01:34 PM
"But why are you willing to impose your personal preferences on other people?"

Because it's right, and any sane person knows so.

PatCox
07-09-2007, 01:54 PM
Well, Ish, the door being left so wide open, I must walk through; ahem, Uh, "Ish, then how would you know?"

Kaa
07-09-2007, 02:01 PM
"But why are you willing to impose your personal preferences on other people?"

Because it's right, and any sane person knows so.

LOL. Or maybe :-(

First, there are a few people who consider me sane and I certainly don't "know so".

Second, your implied answer to the question asked is "Because my personal preferences are what's universally right for everyone and if you disagree I'll call you insane". Are you sticking with this answer?

Third, there are many highly unpleasant things humans have done to each other throughout history because "it's right and any sane person knows so". Or shall I make you a quick list?

Kaa

Keith Wilson
07-09-2007, 02:16 PM
Jack/Ishmael is actually a prototype A.I. program developed by The Committee. It was an early version with emotion programming and the ability to learn from human interactions, designed to eventually pass a Turing Test. The emotions are a little too intense and unpredictable, and it tends to go off on odd tangents, but otherwise it's been a fairly successful trial.

(Sorry, Jack; just couldn't resist. ;) )

ishmael
07-09-2007, 02:31 PM
It's okay, Keith, it brought a grin.

The question of what belongs to the culture and what belongs to the individual is age old. As I said above, I had to submit a clean Wasserman test to get a marraige license.

Would it be best if this fairly large segment wasn't promiscuous every night? Seems to me.

Bruce Hooke
07-09-2007, 02:37 PM
Jung, few remember, was a practicing psychotherapist, one of the most astute ever. He analyzed thousands. A portion of his schedule was people who had sex identity issues. His observations have had an impact on my own, but only as a reinforcer, not as a dictate. After long contemplation, he believed some homosexuals are made and some are born. This was revolutionary at a time when homosexuality was considered an illness. I've seen nothing in my experience which contradicts this master of human observation.

While looking to figures and knowledge from the past is always worthwhile, it should be tempered by balancing the information against more recent findings. This is especially true in a field like this one where so much has been discovered and figured out since Jung's heyday.

Keith Wilson
07-09-2007, 02:39 PM
Yeah, it might be best. They obviously don't think so. The question is, as with everything that some people do to which others object, how much restriction on individual freedom is justified? Does the amount of general harm justify telling people they can't do something that they want to do? Reasonable people may disagree.

Bruce Hooke
07-09-2007, 02:41 PM
Would it be best if this fairly large segment wasn't promiscuous every night? Seems to me.

Do you understand that the gay bathhouse scene is about as representative of gay culture and practices as a whorehouse is of typical heterosexual culture and practices? If you want to talk about bathhouses and the problems you think they cause, fine. If you want to talk about why people are gay, fine. But when you start trying to talk about both you are making an implied linkage that just is not supportable.

PatCox
07-09-2007, 02:52 PM
Whats wrong with promiscuity?

ishmael
07-09-2007, 03:05 PM
"While looking to figures and knowledge from the past is always worthwhile, it should be tempered by balancing the information against more recent findings. This is especially true in a field like this one where so much has been discovered and figured out since Jung's heyday."

Of course. Yet Jung was onto it, from my experience. The first sharp fellow in western psychology who really looked at homosexuality. He didn't make a big splash about it, but if you read him he said some of these people aren't ill. Circa 1950. Very revolutionary.

A lot of people don't like Jung because he formed strong opinions, one of which was that most human behavior is programmed. He was very much an elitist: Only a few can move beyond their programming. I've waxed back and forth on the guy, but I think on that he was probably correct.

Some people are special in their awareness, and I'd point to him as one.

"Whatever remains unconscious is lived out as fate."

ishmael
07-09-2007, 03:07 PM
"Whats wrong with promiscuity?"

Disease.

It also goes beyond that. I don't think most of us are monogamous by nature, but five partners a night is a psychic abberation.

PatCox
07-09-2007, 03:32 PM
Earlier you also described it as "crass" and "not right." I had gotten the impression the problem was some moral precept or concept relatged to ettiquette or "class." But now you say its just a practicality involving infectious diseases.

Hard for me to tell if you are a practical new england libertarian type, or a sexually frustrated old scold.

Kaa
07-09-2007, 04:14 PM
but five partners a night is a psychic abberation also.

Homosexuality is an illness, quick, put them all into mental hospitals! Haven't we been here before?

Besides, aren't you capable of distinguishing love and sex? There is such a thing as purely physical, animal, lusty sex without the usual accoutrements of intimacy and emotional connection to your partner. Is it wrong? You seem to think so.

I think you have sexual hang-ups and want to impose your morality on everyone else. A distressingly common occurrence...

Kaa

Chris Coose
07-09-2007, 05:09 PM
I'm pretty sure that Jack would close bath houses if he could to solve this rampant sex act problem he perceives.

This would be as effective as dubbya coming down hard on Baghdad to solve his Iraq problem.

Anybody but Jack and dubbya can see the futility.
It is the perception and misdiagnosis resulting from the perception that makes them look a bit wacky.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-09-2007, 06:37 PM
Funny...yet another thread on homosexuality...
I was at a gay wedding this Saturday past.... I took the wedding party out on the boat, and brought them to the venue by boat, which was on the water, and they walked off my boat up the dock, and had the ceremony on the lawn of the Bay of Quinte Yacht club. It was a nice time, and I was happy to do it for them.

ishmael
07-09-2007, 06:42 PM
This has been kinda fun. I'm about as libertarian as you'll find on this topic, yet my stance gets the left all bundled up. They don't know quite what to say, because I've said I don't believe it is an illness or wrong in itself, and that's their talking point.

To be clear, I'd shut a heterosexual club that was producing Typhoid Mary's just as fast. I don't think the male homosexual license, very much an issue, is a good way to act, but the main thing is the disease. Society doesn't have a right to dictate one's sexual desire, but it does have a right to control certain aspects of it for the better good. It always has. Where that balance lands is always shifting, but I think we've been giving gay men too free a ride here for a couple decades.

Oh the poor dears, just look at the emaciated corpses kept alive on our tab, or we've gotten better at the drugs so they look like Rock Hudson in the fifties. The point being that they wouldn't be there with some sense. Having multiple anonymous partners a night, without any protection(What fun is a condom? A friend once remarked that having sex with a condom was like showering in a rain coat) is irresponsible.

If you believe the culture has a role to play, we should be discouraging such behavior.

It's not a huge deal for me, but I can yak about damn near anything.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-09-2007, 06:49 PM
How is the not drinking going Jack?

ishmael
07-09-2007, 07:24 PM
Be happy to talk with you about that off forum, but not here, Peter.

WX
07-09-2007, 08:33 PM
As a gay mate once said, " Once the light is out there's not a lot of difference."
Me, I've always like women.I've never had any desire to be a chutney ferret (as Stephen Fry so referred to himself) but they do seem to have a good time eh.

Bob Cleek
07-09-2007, 08:47 PM
God, a hundred and thirty-something posts on queer bath houses (also known hereabouts as "slip n' slides"). San Francisco regulated them years ago. http://www.municode.com/content/4201/14140/HTML/ch026.html

When this ordinance went into effect, there was a great hue and cry from the gays about how it was discriminatory. Fact is, had it been in place when it was first considered, who knows how many cases of then-fatal AIDS would have been prevented. Then again, there seems to be no stopping them. Guys being inherently horney all the time, when you get guys who are horney for guys the sex expands exponentially. Sad state of affairs when the butt bandits risk death in pursuit of pleasure (or so they say.) Some pegs aren't meant to go in some holes.

LeeG
07-09-2007, 10:06 PM
It's not a huge deal for me, but I can yak about damn near anything.

some are that way.

Memphis Mike
07-09-2007, 10:16 PM
some are that way.

[IMG]http://www.combat-fishing.com/tunatest3.gif

Singlegrandad
07-10-2007, 05:45 AM
Funny...yet another thread on homosexuality...
I was at a gay wedding this Saturday past.... I took the wedding party out on the boat, and brought them to the venue by boat, which was on the water, and they walked off my boat up the dock, and had the ceremony on the lawn of the Bay of Quinte Yacht club. It was a nice time, and I was happy to do it for them.

You will reach nirvana through this act alone. You are certainly a saint sir, indeed. Homosexuals are a group that deserves someone to do kindly things for them.

PatCox
07-10-2007, 11:54 AM
Yeah, its not like he sits around night after night thinking, pondering, about bathhouses and gloryholes, trying to visualize the depravity, trying to imagine what it would be like to have five anonymous partners in one night, right Ish, not a "huge" deal. Just an occasional topic for pondering.

George Jung
07-10-2007, 01:18 PM
Given that analysis, Pat, some of your recent posts are a bit more illuminating, as welll!

brad9798
07-10-2007, 01:27 PM
Reminds me of a joke as to why no homosexuals were killed in the San Fran earthquake ... well, they already had their sh*t packed!

ishmael
07-10-2007, 05:40 PM
Ironic that Pat, who prides himself on his liberal credentials, calls me closeted homosexual as an insult.

If I were homosexual I'd neither hide it nor take it as a point of pride, though I understand how until very recently there was much prejudice and fear around it. Still is in some circles.

I'm not anti-homosexual. I find it an interesting spice in the stew. I just want them to act responsibly. The same hope I hold for all people.

And the madness of the homosexual male bath house isn't a stereotype. At least not from my understanding. Do all gay men live that way? Of course not. But it's enough to pay attention to as a public health issue.

LeeG
07-10-2007, 06:05 PM
Is this the real Jack or the not-a-huge-deal-for-me-but-I-can-yak-about-damn-near-anything Jack?

Tom Montgomery
07-10-2007, 06:20 PM
...the madness of the homosexual male bath house isn't a stereotype. At least not from my understanding. Do all gay men live that way? Of course not. But it's enough to pay attention to as a public health issue.If it's the public health issue that has you so concerned, why aren't you publicly pondering street prostitution, intravenous drug use, heterosexual promiscuity & extramarital affairs?

ishmael
07-10-2007, 06:28 PM
"If it's the public health issue that has you so concerned, why aren't you publicly pondering street prostitution, intravenous drug use, heterosexual promiscuity & extramarital affairs?"

I think about those, too. I don't know the appropriate response. The lonely guy seeking a prostitute once every three months is not the same. Neither is the opiate addict sharing a needle on occasion. But they are a concern.

Tom Montgomery
07-10-2007, 06:35 PM
I can't speak to where you live, but where I live the four activities I just mentioned put far more people at risk for AIDS than gay bath houses.

In fact, I'm not aware that Louisville has any bath houses. But FWIW my gay friends have told me that the guys who troll for other males in the public parks are very often married men.

LeeG
07-10-2007, 06:37 PM
I'm thinking about the fruit flies that come out of the fridge in my dads apt.

PatCox
07-11-2007, 10:59 PM
I just repeated your own words back to you, Jack. Funny that you took that as an accusation of closeted homosexuality.

I was much more direct earlier, I said it seems you need to decide which form of sexuality you are not practicing.

ishmael
07-11-2007, 11:27 PM
Pat,

You repeated back to me what I said? Let me see it. And if it wasn't intended as an insult I'm Donald Duck.

The left seems numb about this stuff. They jerk their knees, sound the right chord according with weird talking points, but are basically numb.

It's very sad to me. The legitimate left has things to say.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
07-11-2007, 11:48 PM
http://home.earthlink.net/~cloud_9_cafe/fags.jpg

PatCox
07-12-2007, 08:58 AM
I am not "the left," I am just one person with my own opinions, which happen, on this subject, to be more informed than yours. You have been trying to justify your bigotry with stereotypes and your own "logical" surmises on subjects you have not bothered to research. Basically, on the public health issue, you are talking out your ass, and there is actual real life data, as opposed to navel-gazing speculation from someone borderline obsessed with the promiscuity of homosexuals, on the topic.

Empty? No, try "informed." And free from bigotry.

ishmael
07-12-2007, 10:42 AM
Funny pic, Kevin.

Pat,

You're a stitch. You claim not to be talking the left's talking points, then turn around and talk the left's talking points. How to argue with someone chasing their tail?

Yep, it's true. What I've said shows I hate homosexuals, have a deep unresolved personal homosexuality, and really want all of them dead. I'm gonna start the process by shooting myself out of self-hatred.

Com'on, get past it.

As to stereotypes: are you denying STD rates are through the roof again in this subculture, in large part because of irresponsible behavior? Are you denying the young men in that subculture are having multiple anonymous partners five days a week? If so, you're the one who doesn't have a clue.

See, I actually care about these brothers. I don't want to convert them to heterosexuality ala the original cut. Some could use some therapy around that. But mostly I just want them to put a reign on the randiness. It's bad for them, and it's bad for the rest of us.

LeeG
07-12-2007, 10:58 AM
Jack has so many questions and so little time for answers.

The on-topic arguments or criticisms of his reasoning are simply validation that he's "really asking questions". The actual argument doesn't matter, it's the posture that matters.

PatCox
07-12-2007, 11:05 AM
But he's not asking questions, he thinks he's using the socratic method to teach us.

LeeG
07-12-2007, 11:06 AM
See, I actually care about these brothers. I don't want to convert them to heterosexuality ala the original cut. Some could use some therapy around that. But mostly I just want them to put a reign on the randiness. It's bad for them, and it's bad for the rest of us.


bs. Getting negative responses is what you care about, in a confused way you think that's validation you are pushing people to think, yet your reasoning is based on validating a posture of phrases.
Do you care? Then act. Your words reflect crippling ambivalence more than concern.

Originally Posted by ishmael
This has been kinda fun. . . . It's not a huge deal for me, but I can yak about damn near anything.

ishmael
07-12-2007, 11:06 AM
Lee,

Rather than talking past me with insults, try telling your experience. It's freeing.

Joe (SoCal)
07-12-2007, 11:11 AM
try telling your experience. It's freeing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Wall_Closet.jpg/418px-Wall_Closet.jpg

PatCox
07-12-2007, 11:12 AM
I have experienced this guy who posts at a website called The Woodenboat Forum who adopts a folksy intellectual persona, and throws out what he thinks are provocative, iconoclastic, against the grain ideas, but he does so very gently, showing his position very often as a gentle criticism of the opposing viewpoint.

My experience of this persistent pattern of behavior is that its an important part of his self-image, and is employed mostly for self-validation of his persona of gentle, spiritual self-taught downhome intellectual philosopher.

ishmael
07-12-2007, 11:28 AM
Pat,

Have you ever had an homosexual encounter? I haven't. Well, that's not quite accurate. When I was thirty I had a very pretty face, and I've always liked everyone, so once I gave my phone number to a hungry fellow. I didn't understand what that meant. I was just being friendly, but he bugged me for at least a month. I had to threaten the law to make him stop.

I think I'm from a different planet. My interest has always been with women, but there's always been a misunderstanding in the contract. I don't think, and I've looked hard, that it is repressed homosexuality. I don't know what, but a different planet is my current explanation.

My only advice to you is look beyond Freud. Lee, I wish you the same.

LeeG
07-12-2007, 11:29 AM
Jack, my experience as a sober alcoholic says you are full of it and are fixated on your confusion more than clarity or freedom of thought.
You have already said you really don't care,,but then you do,,no you don't, oh really you do,,and to prove it you'll blur boundaries by speaking in the first person plural. Wow,,what a declaration of concern.

My experience is mine. Splattering it on an anonymous forum isn't freeing but it's food for someone like you starving for contact and new material.

If I thought the topic mattered to you I'd contribute personal experience to support an argument or observation but it doesn't, you masturbate words then run from meaning. "oh I don't know, so many questions"

beating off is a private activity.