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George Jung
07-04-2007, 04:25 PM
Presumably everyone is aware of the recent bomb scare(s) in Britain; all but one of the terrorists was a foreign MD. I thought this story was interesting - links to AQ. http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=1116&u_mod=ap.online.headlines.intl&u_sid=10040608

LONDON (AP) - "Those who cure you are going to kill you."

That, a British priest said Wednesday, was the cryptic warning made to him in Jordan by a purported al-Qaida chief months before the failed car bombings in London and Glasgow that have been linked to a group of foreign Muslims working as doctors in Britain.

British authorities have said the attacks bore the hallmarks of an al-Qaida operation, but security officials say investigators are still trying to determine whether there was any direct link between the alleged plotters and an outside mastermind.

Canon Andrew White, a senior Anglican priest who works in Baghdad, said he met the man privately with a translator and sheik after holding talks with Sunni Muslim tribal and religious leaders April 18 in the Jordanian capital, Amman. He meets regularly with extremists in an attempt to calm Iraq's sectarian violence.

He said religious leaders told him the man was an al-Qaida leader who traveled from Syria to the meeting. The man, an educated Iraqi in his 40s and dressed in Western clothes, warned of attacks on Britain and the United States, White said.

"It was like meeting the devil," he told The Associated Press in a telephone interview from Baghdad. "He talked of destroying Britain and the United States and then said, 'Those who cure you are going to kill you.'"


SamF asked on another thread what any of us would be willing to do, to protect ourselves, our family, our society. I don't know that he had the 'war on terrorism' in mind, but this story certainly brought his question back to mind.

LeeG
07-04-2007, 04:33 PM
more suicidal than terrorist. Anyone that's gone that far in their education has more than enough brain cells to make a functioning bomb.
Yet all one did was make fire and pour gasoline on himself.

Something doesn't connect.

skuthorp
07-04-2007, 05:14 PM
From what I hear they opened the gas cylinders in the cars and relied on the myth that a mobile phone could set it off. Never watched mythbusters!

and Donn, have you ever grown Italian black kale from seed? We don't seem to have much luck with germination.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-04-2007, 05:20 PM
Its enough to worry a body - we have a group of wallys who are unable to make a collection of gas cylinders go Bang - so we employ them as doctors.....

I've seen 13 year-olds do better.

George Jung
07-04-2007, 05:42 PM
Hehehe..... this thread drift I like! Doggone you, Donn, now I'm really hungry! Just got my first tomatoes out of the garden this week, lots more coming. Much better crop than last year. Cucumbers moving along well, too. Unfortunately, I don't have the variety you've mentioned.

Yeah, 'highly educated' doesn't translate into 'I can do anything, just because I'm so smart'. Surprising that AQ, if they're actually affiliated, would have a bunch so ill prepared.

Gotta go fire up the grill. We're feeding all my girls' friends, so it's burgers, brauts and hotdogs; tatersalad; greenbeans (but not from MY garden), salad greens, and a couple of wonderful deserts, including some type of chocolate brownie with whip and fruit on top. Oh yeah, and taco dip; and a few beverage choices. Then some Hagen Das' this evening while we watch fireworks, set off from a National Guard Barge in the middle of the Missouri River - right in front of my house. It should be a good fourth.

skuthorp
07-04-2007, 05:57 PM
Calvo Nero
http://www.riverford.co.uk/recipes/recipe.php?recipeid=212&catid=5

an eating kale, very rich in flavour and a strong grower. Add to soups in the last 5 minutes before serving. We can buy it sometimes at markets but not commercially grown.

carioca1232001
07-04-2007, 05:58 PM
I looked up 'Kale' on Wikipedia and discovered it is similar to what I have just eaten for my supper accompaniment.

In Portuguese, it is 'couve', green in colour and I find it particularly tasteful, as long as it is sauteed briskly (semi-cooked).

Never seen Black Italian Kale, though.

WX
07-04-2007, 06:07 PM
Looks like we had one of their mates working as a doctor just up the coast, they picked him up at Brisbane airport. He apparenty had a one way ticket to Pakistan.

few3
07-04-2007, 06:08 PM
Presumably everyone is aware of the recent bomb scare(s) in Britain; all but one of the terrorists was a foreign MD. I thought this story was interesting - links to AQ. http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=1116&u_mod=ap.online.headlines.intl&u_sid=10040608

LONDON (AP) - "Those who cure you are going to kill you."

That, a British priest said Wednesday, was the cryptic warning made to him in Jordan by a purported al-Qaida chief months before the failed car bombings in London and Glasgow that have been linked to a group of foreign Muslims working as doctors in Britain.

British authorities have said the attacks bore the hallmarks of an al-Qaida operation, but security officials say investigators are still trying to determine whether there was any direct link between the alleged plotters and an outside mastermind.

Canon Andrew White, a senior Anglican priest who works in Baghdad, said he met the man privately with a translator and sheik after holding talks with Sunni Muslim tribal and religious leaders April 18 in the Jordanian capital, Amman. He meets regularly with extremists in an attempt to calm Iraq's sectarian violence.

He said religious leaders told him the man was an al-Qaida leader who traveled from Syria to the meeting. The man, an educated Iraqi in his 40s and dressed in Western clothes, warned of attacks on Britain and the United States, White said.

"It was like meeting the devil," he told The Associated Press in a telephone interview from Baghdad. "He talked of destroying Britain and the United States and then said, 'Those who cure you are going to kill you.'"


SamF asked on another thread what any of us would be willing to do, to protect ourselves, our family, our society. I don't know that he had the 'war on terrorism' in mind, but this story certainly brought his question back to mind.


I hear Edwards has already hired "expert witnesses" for the prosecution. He just loves the MD's.

JBreeze
07-04-2007, 06:12 PM
Do you have a soup like this in your country? There are several portuguese restaurants in my area of SE New England, but I don't know if there is a strong Azorean influence.....in general, most of the meat dishes are too salty for my taste. But I like the Kale soup i've had:)

PORTUGUESE KALE SOUP
6 cups water 2 1/2 tsp. salt
2/3 cup dry red kidney beans 2 cups torn fresh kale
1 lb. beef shank bones 2 cups peeled & cubed potatoes
8 oz. chorizo (or Italian sausage) 2 cups coarse chopped cabbage
2/3 cup dry split peas black pepper to taste
In dutch oven, combine water and kidney beans. Bring to boil, simmer 2 minutes. Remove from heat, cover and let stand 1 hour. In skillet, brown shanks and sausage. Stir into beans with peas and salt. Bring to boil, cover and simmer 2 hours. Remove shanks, cube meat and return to pan. Add kale, potatoes and cabbage. Simmer covered 25 to 30 minutes. Serves 8-10.

Tristan
07-04-2007, 06:17 PM
We had a great garden in the Blueridge mts. in Va. for four years, also ate weeds (Lambs quarters) and loved them. Hard to grow stuff down here in S. Florida (hard for me anyhow). Too damn hot in the summer, bugs and fungus amungus. Plus, I've got a hardwood hammock in my back yard, not much sun. We wind up eating substandard stuff from the supermarket or fair stuff from the vegetable stand a couple miles away. As for the "terrerists" I am delighted with their lack of ability and self inflicted burns.

Tristan
07-04-2007, 06:19 PM
Do you have a soup like this in your country? There are several portuguese restaurants in my area of SE New England, but I don't know if there is a strong Azorean influence.....in general, most of the meat dishes are too salty for my taste. But I like the Kale soup i've had:)

PORTUGUESE KALE SOUP
6 cups water 2 1/2 tsp. salt
2/3 cup dry red kidney beans 2 cups torn fresh kale
1 lb. beef shank bones 2 cups peeled & cubed potatoes
8 oz. chorizo (or Italian sausage) 2 cups coarse chopped cabbage
2/3 cup dry split peas black pepper to taste
In dutch oven, combine water and kidney beans. Bring to boil, simmer 2 minutes. Remove from heat, cover and let stand 1 hour. In skillet, brown shanks and sausage. Stir into beans with peas and salt. Bring to boil, cover and simmer 2 hours. Remove shanks, cube meat and return to pan. Add kale, potatoes and cabbage. Simmer covered 25 to 30 minutes. Serves 8-10.

I made a soup like this recently from a Brazilian recipie. It was good. :D

skuthorp
07-04-2007, 06:21 PM
We do now Jbreze, thanks for that. I suspect the salt in that is from the sausage. We are very well served for restaurants in Melbourne, I'll try to find a Portugese one.

ps look at the thread header "New flavour...." not so far off eh?

carioca1232001
07-04-2007, 06:23 PM
These doctors seem more like 'Dr. No' from the early 60´s, than physicians who took the medical oath upon graduation.

How about putting 'James' on their heels, in hot pursuit, armed not with a gun, but an 'enema' can at the ready, full to the brim with 'chilly powder in aqueous solution' ? :D :D

Perhaps a little inner cleansing may jolt them into review their position in society ?

carioca1232001
07-04-2007, 06:30 PM
JBreeze,
We have a Portuguese 'hand-down' soup named 'Caldo Verde'. Green Soup !

No red beans, but potatoes which have been blended in with the brew and of course, delicious 'couve'. Some 'toucinho' (bacon) finely chopped and added to the brew.

This is the time of year when it is most consumed, piping hot, which is our Winter season (your Summer season).

skuthorp
07-04-2007, 06:33 PM
Brazil, Florida, Long Island, Australia - and all about a cabbage! Doncha love this place!

BTW Carioca, pretty cold and wet here too, snow down to 700M, gales, good soup weather indeed.

WX
07-04-2007, 06:52 PM
Hey Skuthorp, it's blowing like the clappers here and I'm in a sheltered spot. Not too cold though and the sun is shining.
yeah a thread about terrorists and cabbage...I guess the link is gas:D

LeeG
07-04-2007, 07:12 PM
Surprising that AQ, if they're actually affiliated, would have a bunch so ill prepared.


what basis do you say they are AQ affliliated?
Seems that just about everything nowadays is AQ affiliated given the $500billion committment in Iraq based on Cheney/Wolfowitz work conflating AQ with Iraq.

skuthorp
07-04-2007, 07:14 PM
I remember cabbage pie at school camp. Talk about gas!! That cook was a terrorist, specially when he served prunes for dessert...........

carioca1232001
07-04-2007, 07:42 PM
Skuthorp, winter season is tolerable in Rio de Janeiro, temperatures rarely dropping below 13 º C. We have hill stations just 50 miles from our sea front region, with a complete change of climate and scenery.
Much, much colder in Rio Grande do Sul, on the frontier with Uruguay and Argentina.
In contrast, the Northeastern region is tropical bliss .....(or boredom ?)...... all year around.
Good weather for Caldo Verde in the South East and South. Topped off, preferably, with a dose or two of quality 'cachaça' (distilled sugar cane spirit) for a night cap.;)

paladin
07-04-2007, 08:19 PM
Donn.....
My cilantro isn't sprouting...just kinda little tiny green sprigs sticking up and I'm beginning to doubt that it's the cilantro that's growing...but everything else has sprung to life.......except now the cherry tomatoes (leaves) are turning brown........bugs, too much water, not enough water?

WX
07-04-2007, 08:34 PM
Part 1 of topic: They were definitely not AQ! Far too bloody amateurish.
Part 2 of topic: Cherry tomatoes are weeds, admittedly they taste good but after a while you just want to be able to carve a decent slice off a tommy for your sandwich.

seanz
07-04-2007, 08:57 PM
Cherry tomatoes?
Halve a heap of them , cook with fresh basil , yum.
Come on Spring!!!
Now
I've met a few doctors in the last couple of years , they seemed strangely lacking in critical thinking and general knowledge.................

George Jung
07-04-2007, 09:07 PM
what basis do you say they are AQ affliliated?
Seems that just about everything nowadays is AQ affiliated given the $500billion committment in Iraq based on Cheney/Wolfowitz work conflating AQ with Iraq.

LONDON (AP) - "Those who cure you are going to kill you."

That, a British priest said Wednesday, was the cryptic warning made to him in Jordan by a purported al-Qaida chief months before the failed car bombings in London and Glasgow that have been linked to a group of foreign Muslims working as doctors in Britain.


British authorities have said the attacks bore the hallmarks of an al-Qaida operation, but security officials say investigators are still trying to determine whether there was any direct link between the alleged plotters and an outside mastermind.

He said religious leaders told him the man was an al-Qaida leader who traveled from Syria to the meeting.

On the other hand, maybe not. I wasn't there, and besides, AQ doesn't carry decoder rings, personalized AQ ID's, or special tattoos. How would you know?

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=1116&u_mod=ap.online.headlines.intl&u_sid=10040608






.

LeeG
07-04-2007, 10:22 PM
George, that is a phrase, not a description of a relationship.

George Jung
07-04-2007, 11:02 PM
Well then, why don't you tell me, LeeG? How do you know it's an 'AQ connection'? Do you wait until the PR firm for Bin Laden releases a statement? "Yes, it was our plot. Oh, and btw, death to America".....

Good grief, man, read the story, it's what those used as sources reported.

LeeG
07-04-2007, 11:52 PM
George, I don't see that phrase as sufficient evidence to characterize the sloppy bombers as AQ affiliated.

seanz
07-05-2007, 02:24 AM
Egad !
Not sloppy bombers!
Surely they wouldn't use sloppy bombs.

The bind moggles.

You'll have to forgive my slide (deeper) into the ridiculous but some well educated middle class people appear to have attempted to blow up an airport in Scotland because of a war in Mesopotamia.
It just don't add up.

PeterSibley
07-05-2007, 02:49 AM
Time to be grateful they were so incompetent ....competent terrorists are very very bad news .

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-05-2007, 02:59 AM
Time to be grateful they were so incompetent ....competent terrorists are very very bad news .

Come to sunny Britain - get sick - get treated on the NHS -
By an inept terrorist.

Grateful????

seanz
07-05-2007, 03:17 AM
Come to sunny Britain - get sick - get treated on the NHS -
By an inept terrorist.

Grateful????


Well , if you put it like that it sounds bad.

What are they trying to do?
"Fear us , next time it could be worse , we might get it right."

Could someone try to explain what these people are thinking.
Would they respond to medication? :rolleyes:

Andrew Craig-Bennett
07-05-2007, 04:16 AM
There is a very simple medical explanation for this, which anyone why has been anywhere near an operating theatre will understand:

Doctors do not deal with gases. Doctors rely on anaesthetists to deal with gases.

So they needed to recruit an anaesthetist to make their bombs work.

Should be easy; hospitals contain both, a chat over the water cooler should be easy to contrive...

...but...

...when did you last meet a doctor who was on speaking terms with an anaesthetist?:D

I scoffed half a pound of Gardener's Delight yesterday. I know this because I picked a pound, weighed them, and then there was only a half pound remaining...definitely my favourite tomato. Do I need a doctor?:D

WX
07-05-2007, 04:28 AM
Come to sunny Britain - get sick - get treated on the NHS -
By an inept terrorist.
:D
Better than our new tourist slogan....Where the bloody hell are you? Wonder what brain thought that up and at what cost.
We could copy that actually.
Come to sunny Queensland, get sick
get treated on Medicare
and be treated by an inept terrorist.

carioca1232001
07-05-2007, 06:22 AM
C.........
Now
I've met a few doctors in the last couple of years , they seemed strangely lacking in critical thinking and general knowledge.................


Funny you should say that. One of my sisters is a Physiologist and used to lecture on a M.Sc. course in Radio Physics (medical) at a good British Univ. By far the largest group of students was composed of physicians.

Exceptions notwithstanding, this group stood out, year after year, for lacking in critical thinking. Just jotted things down and crammed the material !The science graduates topped the class in every measurable way.

George.
07-05-2007, 06:43 AM
Doctors don't need to think critically. THey just let the pharmaceutical companies do it for them. :rolleyes:

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-05-2007, 06:53 AM
One of them was a hospital Lab Technician - and these are usually really dangerous critters.

I have knew one who;

Made NI3 - at home in the kitchen.
Brewed beers and wines - in the path lab of a London Teaching Hospital.

The incident with the sodium filled exhaust valve from a griffin - and the bucket of water....

Phillip Allen
07-05-2007, 06:54 AM
George, George...cynicism is a terrible and progressive disease...with no known cure...ware...WARE!

Phillip Allen
07-05-2007, 06:55 AM
"The incident with the sodium filled exhaust valve from a griffin - and the bucket of water...."

Griffin?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-05-2007, 07:02 AM
Griffin?
http://www.jetfly.hu/rovatok/jetfly/honap/julius/hawker_040916/07.jpg
Griffin.

In it natural home
http://www.air-and-space.com/20040516%20Chino/Dsc_0346%20Supermarine%20Spitfire%20PR%20Mk.%20XIX %20N219A%20left%20front%20m.jpg

martin schulz
07-05-2007, 07:04 AM
We are also seeing a new flavour of tourists.

http://philip.greenspun.com/images/200504-legoland/tourist-with-camera.4.jpg

Ross M
07-05-2007, 07:04 AM
Griffon :D

Paul Fitzgerald
07-05-2007, 07:18 AM
I used to work in hospitals with these sorts of doctors.
It doesnt surprise me at all that they couldn't get a gas tank to blow up.

LeeG
07-05-2007, 09:01 AM
the important thing is that they are Al Qaeda, a few more billion should be allocated for missle defense because of Al Qaeda, Boeing needs a billion dollar contract for surveillance systems on the US/Mexico border because of Al Qaeda, eat more fiber because of Al Qaeda, erectile dysfunction on the rise because of al Qaeda, a vote for national health care programs is a vote for al Qaeda.

George Jung
07-05-2007, 01:18 PM
Your incredibly insightful comments aside, I'm confident it doesn't really matter if they were formally affiliated with AQ, or were independents who just liked the 'ring' of the name and the notoriety it might add.
Bottom line - there are immigrants to Britain - and, according to the article, the USA - who are 'professionals', who identify with jihad against the west, who will attempt bombing attacks, and who were at least known by some folks in the Mideast with a similar interest, and perhaps were provided guidance by these same folks.
Not as catchy as your jingle, LeeG, but I guess that's the way it goes.

Kaa
07-05-2007, 01:30 PM
To quote Bruce Schneier,

"First London and then Glasgow. Who are these idiots? Is there a Special Olympics for terrorists going on in the UK this week?" :D

Kaa

Osborne Russell
07-05-2007, 02:23 PM
To quote Bruce Schneier,

"First London and then Glasgow. Who are these idiots? Is there a Special Olympics for terrorists going on in the UK this week?"

Puts the Red Propagandists to the test.

1. Must be Al Qaeda in order to pump up the fear, but must not be Al Qaeda lest Al Qaeda lose its fearfulness.
2. Couldn't have followed British troops home, but must not be a product of the occupation of Iraq.

Tristan
07-05-2007, 02:30 PM
JBreeze,
We have a Portuguese 'hand-down' soup named 'Caldo Verde'. Green Soup !

No red beans, but potatoes which have been blended in with the brew and of course, delicious 'couve'. Some 'toucinho' (bacon) finely chopped and added to the brew.

This is the time of year when it is most consumed, piping hot, which is our Winter season (your Summer season).

I've got JBreeze's soup cooking on the stove right now. In addition to his ingredients I will be adding GARLIC. Can't believe this recipe could possible be made without garlic!:D

George.
07-05-2007, 02:48 PM
George, George...cynicism is a terrible and progressive disease...with no known cure...ware...WARE!

Sure there is a cure. There is a pill for everything these days, haven't you heard? But it will cost you...

Keith Wilson
07-05-2007, 02:54 PM
. . . eat more fiber because of Al Qaeda . . .IIRC, Al Qaeda just mens "the base" (as in military base) in Arabic. It was what OBL's folks called their base in Afghanistan ("the base" - how imaginative!), but nobody called the organization that until the US media started using the term.

LeeG
07-05-2007, 03:11 PM
Your incredibly insightful comments aside, I'm confident it doesn't really matter if they were formally affiliated with AQ, or were independents who just liked the 'ring' of the name and the notoriety it might add.
.

if it doesn't matter then how do you determine the severity of the threat or who the enemy is? This tolerance for a lack of precision in reporting is how folks can still believe Saddam had a role in 9/11

Clan Gordon
07-05-2007, 03:50 PM
‘Twas doon by the Inch o’ Abbots
Oor Johnny walked one day
When he saw a sicht that troubled him
Far more that he could say
A fanatic Muslim ***** (born out of wedlock)
Wiz doin what he’d planned
And intae Glesca’s departure hall
A Cherokee he’d rammed.

A big Glaswegian polis
Came forward tae assist
He thocht “a wumman driver”
Or at least someone half-pissed
But to his shock nae drunken Jock
Emerged to grasp his hand
But a flamin’ Arab loony
Frae Al Qaeda’s band

The mad Islamist nut-case
Had set hissel’ on fire
And swung oot at the polis
GBH his clear desire
"Now that’s no richt" wur Johnny cried
And sallied tae the fray
A left hook and a heid butt
Required tae save the day.

Now listen up Bin Laden
Yir sort’s nae wanted here
For imported English radicals
Us Scotsmen huv nae fear
Oor hame grown Glesca Asians
Will have nae bluidy truck
So take yer worldwide Jihad
An get yersel tae ****

Notes
1. Abbotsinch = the old name for Glasgow airport
2. John Smeaton = airport worker involved in non-politically correct apprehension of one of the suspects
3. other translation on request

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-05-2007, 04:02 PM
The stuff of legend.

PeterSibley
07-05-2007, 04:28 PM
Come to sunny Britain - get sick - get treated on the NHS -
By an inept terrorist.

Grateful????

I don't really care if my surgeon can make bombs as well, I'm quite happy for areas of incompetence to exist .

seanz
07-05-2007, 05:12 PM
The stuff of legend.

And he'll never be thirsty again............

http://johnsmeaton.com/?page_id=5

carioca1232001
07-05-2007, 07:36 PM
I've got JBreeze's soup cooking on the stove right now. In addition to his ingredients I will be adding GARLIC. Can't believe this recipe could possible be made without garlic!:D

Actually, my knowledge on the ingredients is scant but that the end product is worth the effort, I can assure you !

ishmael
07-05-2007, 10:40 PM
(as in military base)

Um, not my understanding. Yes AQ means "the base", but not as in a military base, as in a foundation for a new worldwide caliphate based on Sharia law.

I don't know how to deal with these troglodytes. I'm pretty sure how we have been dealing with them isn't working. But to underestimate their designs is foolish. They hate us, the modern West. They want to eliminate us. They don't halt or falter in this, and they are growing--I would say largely because of our ham-handed reaction to them.

George Jung
07-05-2007, 10:49 PM
Funny you should say that. One of my sisters is a Physiologist and used to lecture on a M.Sc. course in Radio Physics (medical) at a good British Univ. By far the largest group of students was composed of physicians.

Exceptions notwithstanding, this group stood out, year after year, for lacking in critical thinking. Just jotted things down and crammed the material !The science graduates topped the class in every measurable way.

Not surprising; I topped the medical students when I was a graduate student, as well. The difference is in the volume of material literally dumped on you in medical school. The level of difficulty wasn't really as great as in grad school, just the amount was incredible. Lacking in critical thinking? Hehehe...


Doctors don't need to think critically. THey just let the pharmaceutical companies do it for them. :rolleyes:


I used to work in hospitals with these sorts of doctors.
It doesnt surprise me at all that they couldn't get a gas tank to blow up.


the important thing is that they are Al Qaeda, a few more billion should be allocated for missle defense because of Al Qaeda, Boeing needs a billion dollar contract for surveillance systems on the US/Mexico border because of Al Qaeda, eat more fiber because of Al Qaeda, erectile dysfunction on the rise because of al Qaeda, a vote for national health care programs is a vote for al Qaeda.


Sure there is a cure. There is a pill for everything these days, haven't you heard? But it will cost you...

Yeah, children, there's certainly a cure. But for this mob, it's a big suppository (with splinters!), not a pill. I expect you bunch will enjoy that, however....:p


‘Twas doon by the Inch o’ Abbots
Oor Johnny walked one day
When he saw a sicht that troubled him
Far more that he could say
A fanatic Muslim ***** (born out of wedlock)
Wiz doin what he’d planned
And intae Glesca’s departure hall
A Cherokee he’d rammed.

A big Glaswegian polis
Came forward tae assist
He thocht “a wumman driver”
Or at least someone half-pissed
But to his shock nae drunken Jock
Emerged to grasp his hand
But a flamin’ Arab loony
Frae Al Qaeda’s band

The mad Islamist nut-case
Had set hissel’ on fire
And swung oot at the polis
GBH his clear desire
"Now that’s no richt" wur Johnny cried
And sallied tae the fray
A left hook and a heid butt
Required tae save the day.

Now listen up Bin Laden
Yir sort’s nae wanted here
For imported English radicals
Us Scotsmen huv nae fear
Oor hame grown Glesca Asians
Will have nae bluidy truck
So take yer worldwide Jihad
An get yersel tae ****

Notes
1. Abbotsinch = the old name for Glasgow airport
2. John Smeaton = airport worker involved in non-politically correct apprehension of one of the suspects
3. other translation on request

That's a very nice poem; yours?

ishmael
07-05-2007, 11:00 PM
Thinking about why these bombers failed. I have no idea about how to make those materials go boom. Assuming it's at all doable to make patio propane cylinders go boom with any ease. Maybe they got Cs in basic physics? I don't know.

It kinda reminds me of Reid, the shoe bomber with the C4 or whatever it was moulded into his tennis shoe. It gives me hope we're dealing with the three stooges, not Ted Kazynski. Now there was a fellow who knew how to make a bomb go boom.

Don't count on it.

LeeG
07-05-2007, 11:07 PM
Jack, you don't know much, you hope, but (we) shouldn't count on it.

got it.

BrianW
07-05-2007, 11:21 PM
Why the debate about any connection to Al Qaida?

What this incident may reveal, is that it's not just the poor Arab oppressed by the Great Satan that is out to kill Westerners. Apparently it's also successful Muslims.

In any case... can we all agree we've now found the elusive "Wacky Medical Doctors?"

:)

ishmael
07-05-2007, 11:29 PM
I do know, or remember, some basic physics. Making a cylinder of propane explode isn't easy. There's a lot of potential boom in there, but to make it go boom isn't a simple matter of lighting it afire.

You can shoot a high velocity round into one and it will just vent. An incendiary round, and it will still vent, aflame. Making it go bang with its potential bang isn't easy. Kinda silly bombs, worthy of Monty Python, when I look at it.

With the potential of high explosives, C4, TNT, fertilizer out there, one wonders what these doctors were up to.

BrianW
07-05-2007, 11:48 PM
We've always had to light a fire behind the bottle, then shoot it.

LeeG
07-06-2007, 12:09 AM
With the potential of high explosives, C4, TNT, fertilizer out there, one wonders what these doctors were up to.

suicide.

seanz
07-06-2007, 12:16 AM
We've always had to light a fire behind the bottle, then shoot it.

Obviously these guys didn't know spit.
The correct way to initiate a massive chain reaction is to say the magic words...

"Hold my beer and watch this"

:D

TMny
07-06-2007, 12:38 AM
One of the flamers was of Palestinian descent {see excerpt fr news below} . Many Palestinians have adopted the conception that their kind have been shortchanged.

It's about equally ridiculous that :
-these fellows couldn't do much of a job
-that they would be motivated to act so 'unprofessionally' in Hippocratic (sp) sense
-that we are interacting so fruitlessly with their sort...

************ ++++++++++++
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/03/world/europe/03doctor.html
A Surgeon’s Trajectory Takes an Unlikely Swerve
By SERGE F. KOVALESKI and HASSAN M. FATTAH
Published: July 3, 2007
NEWCASTLE-UNDER-LYME, England, July 2 — Mohammed Asha, the Jordanian-trained doctor who has been arrested, though not charged, in the terrorism plots in the Britain last week, was proud of his career accomplishments but fretful about his welcome in English society, friends and acquaintances in Jordan and Britain said Monday.
*..* He said that the Ashas were model tenants, but that Dr. Asha, a Palestinian with Jordanian citizenship, had something of a condescending manner. “He got a slight attitude,” said Mr. Plant, an elevator engineer. “He had a sense of self-importance about being a doctor. You could definitely feel it.”
*..* In the Middle East, his life seemed set for a different trajectory. “He was brilliant, a genius,” said Dr. Azmi Mufazhal, who taught him immunology during his third year, and who got to know him over three years as assistant dean of the Jordan University Medical School. “He would know his subject so well that his questioning often sounded like an interrogation.”
He was so focused on his work that Dr. Mahafzal said he once encouraged his student to drop the books and go out and have fun.
Dr. Asha was born in Saudi Arabia. In 1991, his family moved to Amman, Jordan, where his father said he thought his children had a chance at a better education. In Amman, they lived in a squalid neighborhood where Islamists own the streets.
******* ++++++++

WX
07-06-2007, 04:51 AM
Clan Gordon, yer a bloody poet...Robbie would be proud of yer :D

Clan Gordon
07-06-2007, 05:38 AM
Hi WX (and George Jung),

Wish I could take credit for the poem, but it wisnae me.

It started circulating (in Scotland at least) fairly soon after the event. Have to say I am impressed by the folks who can generate such a humorous response so quickly.

Phillip Allen
07-06-2007, 05:56 AM
Yes but it causes a distortion of the ear...having it pressed so hard against the rails all the time

LeeG
07-06-2007, 06:40 AM
more details,

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/06/world/europe/06britain.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin


law enforcement officials say that the evidence emerging is that the two doctors were the main operatives, if not the leaders, of a network of other medical professionals.
..

Mr. Gardiner said that Dr. Abdulla paid for the next month’s rent last week by check.

This has led Mr. Gardiner to speculate that the Glasgow attack was a hastily planned reaction to the failure of the London plot.

“Would you have paid your last rent check knowing you were going to kill yourself?” he asked.

carioca1232001
07-06-2007, 07:49 AM
Not surprising; I topped the medical students when I was a graduate student, as well. The difference is in the volume of material literally dumped on you in medical school. The level of difficulty wasn't really as great as in grad school, just the amount was incredible. Lacking in critical thinking? Hehehe...

Just for the record.....I hail from a most medical family, often gold-medallists and pioneers in the profession........doctors for at least as many generations as some here make similar claims for woodworkers and carpenters.......;).

Just one in this current generation, though, who incidentally gave it up and turned into a very successful businessman/executive.

So there is no question about selling short, there being no axe to grind :D


Yeah, children, there's certainly a cure. But for this mob, it's a big suppository (with splinters!), not a pill. I expect you bunch will enjoy that, however....:p

Recall the chilly powder (pimenta malagueta ) in aqueous form that I had suggested above? Well, would have been my father´s preferred remedy for this lot, but yours is just as effective, perfectly acceptable too :D :D

Osborne Russell
07-06-2007, 03:46 PM
What this incident may reveal, is that it's not just the poor Arab oppressed by the Great Satan that is out to kill Westerners. Apparently it's also successful Muslims.

Yeah. How does the occupation of Iraq amount to "war" against them?

Much more likely is that borderline cases like this are turned into terrorists by the "war."

Precisely as predicted before the invasion and continuously since. But the Chimp's cheerleaders dare not acknowledge it because it's not just a flaw in the strategy, it's a reason why the strategy, however skillfullly crafted and implemented, shouldn't be adopted at all.

The half-wit rationale given then and still clung to by the blind is that American military action i.e. war on the ground in Muslim countries would inhibit terrorist strikes in The West.

IOW the neo-cons and their sock puppet made a grievous strategic error that they can't blame on faulty information, "politics", sunspots, evolution, or the liberals. They have not defeated Islamo-fascism on the ground in the Muslim world, and the effort has not inhibited terrorist strikes in The West. You could nuke Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, in any combination, or all of them, and what you'd get is more terrorism.

Ain't that a bitch. Tough out there for a Chimp.

George Jung
07-06-2007, 08:25 PM
Much more likely is that borderline cases like this are turned into terrorists by the "war."

Gotcha. It's OUR fault. Now why didn't I see that coming?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
07-07-2007, 04:02 AM
George, so far as "home grown" Islamist terrorism in the UK is concerned we have a pretty clear picture of how people have been recruited.

It is not the Imams at the mosques. A fairly staggering 80-odd per cent of Imams in Britain arrived here in the past ten years, 54% of them from Pakistan. They tend to give their sermons in Urdu, and to address isses that interest the older people in their congregations. They are socially conservative, but by no means Islamist. Younger Moslems, with English as their first language are very often bored by this.

Their training has been largely rote learning, with a curriculum described as "medieval". Their familiarity with life as seen by a British teenager is minimal at best.

As you would expect, there are serious efforts being made to train younger, British, Imams, but it takes time.

Groups of Islamists tend to gather round mosques at the end of prayers and seek to engage young Moslems in conversation. Their recruitment methods (as opposed to what they have to say!) are about the same as the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses - engage someone in conversation and gradually bring them round.

The invasion of Iraq is indeed the topic most generally used by Islamist recruiters to persuade young British Moslems into conversation with them and to stoke their feelings of outrage.

To that extent, Osborne Russell is quite correct in what he says.

As noted, this is now well understood here and British Moslems are taking effective steps against it, whilst the security services now have a good picture of what goes on and who is doing it, so the tactic is becoming less effective.

LeeG
07-07-2007, 06:32 AM
Much more likely is that borderline cases like this are turned into terrorists by the "war."

Gotcha. It's OUR fault. Now why didn't I see that coming?

first off that statement doesn't say it's our fault, for a bell curve of behaviours nut jobs will find the ideology that satisfies their outlook. For example in the US terrorist attacks on womens health clinics during the late 80's paralleled the rise in right wing christians.

While these docs can be identified as muslim there isn't the affliliation with AQ as you alleged by a vague phrase spoken by a third party. They're better described as "suicide by cop" than agents of jihadist terrorism.

these distinctions matter in order to seperate noise from information, kind of like being able to distinguish a nuke from a 18yr old artillery shell or a stalinist dictator from a non-national terrorist. Especially when pre-emptive war is the new trigger behind the biggest superpower. With such loose reasoning one could rationalize bombing runs on Iran because of evidence that there's Iranian support for some insurgent groups,,yet ignoring Saudi support of some insurgent groups.

Osborne Russell
07-07-2007, 09:19 AM
The invasion of Iraq is indeed the topic most generally used by Islamist recruiters to persuade young British Moslems into conversation with them and to stoke their feelings of outrage.

On a silver platter, yo. Like mushrooms after rain.

Here's to the moderate Muslims trying to do something about it. Now how about our part of the "Global War On Terror" -- providing something in the way of demonstrated respect for the feelings of these people which they feel have been outraged. In the long run it's the only thing that can work.

What we do to them is like Hitler's attempt to bomb the British into submission, only slower, mostly. I don't see why doing it more slowly will work any better; but I see many reasons why it will fail even worse.

George Jung
07-07-2007, 09:41 AM
Very clever, LeeG, though I'd point out I've alleged nothing; the folks quoted in that article (you did read the article, didn't you?) mentioned an AQ contact, but what their actual involvement was is not spelled out. I understand perhaps even that is too much for you, but you can take that up with the reporter.
ACB, none of those arrested for this latest attempt were 'homegrown', correct? I don't know how long they've been in Britain, but I've definitely the perception they were medical professionals who came to GB with this 'activity' in mind. If that is so, I expect we'll hear of further such events, as several of those involved also considered coming to the US instead. Some seem relieved these particular folks did not visit here. I'm unsure why that is relevant. It seems most likely we have 'professionals' who have moved here, and didn't visit GB first, are most likely practicing here now. If they are plants intent on an attack, I'd be surprised if they haven't learned a few 'don'ts' from the British events. And, it doesn't matter if they are officially stamped with the AQ 'mark of freshness'. Identifying with AQ's goals is probably sufficient, wouldn't you say? Or do you think the only effective bomb is one blessed personally by Bin Laden?

Phillip Allen
07-07-2007, 09:53 AM
"...demonstrated respect for the feelings of these people..."

Are you from a high priced white wine drinking neighborhood in California or perhaps a similarly elite area near Martha's Vinyard?

carioca1232001
07-07-2007, 10:14 AM
..... A fairly staggering 80-odd per cent of Imams in Britain arrived here in the past ten years, 54% of them from Pakistan........


Yesterday the media reported yet another (botched) attempt to assassinate Pakistan´s Pervez Musharraf.

This time it was machine-gun and ack-ack fire from a rooftop - and some say even a missile - as his airplane took off and was gaining altitude on its flight path.

George Jung
07-07-2007, 12:41 PM
"...demonstrated respect for the feelings of these people..."

Are you from a high priced white wine drinking neighborhood in California or perhaps a similarly elite area near Martha's Vinyard?

A guys gotta dream, doncha think?

Yesterday the media reported yet another (botched) attempt to assassinate Pakistan´s Pervez Musharraf.


So what's the story on this one? From what I've read, it seems apparent Musharef isn't a Washington puppet, and in fact seems to be adept at playing the US for their money without providing much in return. Who's trying to kill him? The left-wing wackos who want sharia law and war against the west?

Osborne Russell
07-07-2007, 09:13 PM
"...demonstrated respect for the feelings of these people..."

Are you from a high priced white wine drinking neighborhood in California or perhaps a similarly elite area near Martha's Vinyard?

Mostly one-tooth hog farmer Jesus Jumpers hereabouts. Just kidding.

What's your point?

PeterSibley
07-07-2007, 10:20 PM
Yesterday the media reported yet another (botched) attempt to assassinate Pakistan´s Pervez Musharraf.


So what's the story on this one? From what I've read, it seems apparent Musharef isn't a Washington puppet, and in fact seems to be adept at playing the US for their money without providing much in return. Who's trying to kill him?

The left-wing wackos ? Can I suggest you change your medication George , the current one seems to be having a strange effect on your perceptions .:confused:
Musharef is there and that is the best you can hope for ....you may not think the US is geting much for its buck but if Pakistan was a democracy you would enjoy it a whole lot less ,actually you would probably be bombing a democratic theocratic Pakistan back to the stone age right now .

PeterSibley
07-07-2007, 10:23 PM
As for who'se trying to kill him , probably the democratic opposition .....the US hating Islamic majority .

carioca1232001
07-08-2007, 06:44 AM
Peter Sibley, your evaluation of the situation in Pakistan is remarkably lucid. Well done !

LeeG
07-08-2007, 10:11 AM
Very clever, LeeG, though I'd point out I've alleged nothing; the folks quoted in that article (you did read the article, didn't you?) mentioned an AQ contact, but what their actual involvement was is not spelled out. I understand perhaps even that is too much for you, but you can take that up with the reporter.
n?

George, you aren't being honest. You attribute to another a position they didn't make by saying

"Gotcha. It's OUR fault. Now why didn't I see that coming?"

That manner of arguing has been a tool by those challenged with reality pushing the doctrine of pre-emptive war where 1% possibiblities become 100%probabilities. "you're not for the terrorists are you?" when people pushing an agenda are asked for specifics.

"mentioned an AQ contact"? Cheney mentioned AQ contacts, right now Iraq is full of AQ, Zarqawi was AQ, sure looks like we're surrounded by AQ.

George Jung
07-08-2007, 10:13 AM
As for who'se trying to kill him , probably the democratic opposition .....the US hating Islamic majority .
__________________


Sorry, Petey, those ARE the LWW, from my perspective. Sorry if I didn't couch it in terms you approve. I'll submit my future thoughts to you for approval before posting, 'kay?

Syed
07-08-2007, 10:51 AM
As for who'se trying to kill him , probably the democratic opposition .....the US hating Islamic majority .

Not very well thought conclusion. Sorry to say that.

George Jung
07-08-2007, 11:02 AM
George, you aren't being honest. You attribute to another a position they didn't make by saying

"Gotcha. It's OUR fault. Now why didn't I see that coming?"




Much more likely is that borderline cases like this are turned into terrorists by the "war."

Gotcha. It's OUR fault. Now why didn't I see that coming?
__________________

I've noticed you seem a bit more irritable of late, LeeG, based on your posts on some of the other threads. Not sure why you're taking a poke at me; the posts above don't seem to warrant it. Perhaps you'd like to explain yourself a bit?

Syed - care to elaborate? I'd expect you're the only one here who actually knows what he's talking about, on this subject.

Ross M
07-08-2007, 11:04 AM
Syed

Would you please expand your comment? I am very interested in your position on this subject.

Ross

Syed
07-08-2007, 01:11 PM
Syed

Would you please expand your comment? I am very interested in your position on this subject.

Ross

Knowing the political scenario and country's political parties, I do not suspect their involvement in these attempts. There are Baluch groups and people in Waziristan (Tribal area between Pakistan and Afghanistan) who take him as their personal enemy due to certain acts like killing local civilians in these areas.
I am interested to watch the proceedings of London APC so may be I will be able to add some thing later.

carioca1232001
07-08-2007, 01:29 PM
Pragmatic types see nothing else besides:

'Oh ! For a Fistfull of Dollars',

like Clint Eastwood used to do, in his early years in the cinema :D :D

The opposition...... be it in any place...... East or West, North or South.............in a situation like Pakistan finds itself today, would befriend whosoever 'that has what it makes'.

Friends of convenience.

ishmael
07-08-2007, 02:32 PM
Syed,

You don't post here often, but I enjoy hearing from you.

I think we provincial Americans need to hear other ways.

What does Islam mean to you? Is it simply the milieu you were raised in, or is it more to you?

I got sucked into this war in Iraq when I didn't know a Sunni from a Shia. I do now. I got bamboozled.

Hindsight, but looking back it was a terrible mistake. Saddam was a bad guy, but it was incredible hubris on the part of our current executive to think they could step into that pressure kettle and make things right.

Anyway, please keep telling us about your experience.

Best,

Jack

Syed
07-09-2007, 01:44 AM
Thank you Jack, for taking notice of my above lines.
I shall try to answer your question at the earliest opportunity, I get.
I appreciate the general atmosphere of this forum and it is a good link of direct communication among distant people.

Regards,
Syed

PeterSibley
07-09-2007, 05:22 AM
Not very well thought conclusion. Sorry to say that.

Are you suggesting that the majority are US loving or just don't care .How is Musharef regarded in his dealings with the West ?

Syed
07-09-2007, 06:10 AM
Of course, many Pakistanis love US for green card and visa.
Mr.Musharraf is regarded as the most obedient friend of the West.

carioca1232001
07-09-2007, 07:28 AM
Of course, many Pakistanis love US for green card and visa.

An interesting observation is that among the younger members of a sizable chunk of expat Pakistani workers (not college grads) - in Michigan or Illinois, can´t remember which - there is zero sympathy for radical religious groups.

Unlike,say, what was witnessed in the UK some two years ago


Mr.Musharraf is regarded as the most obedient friend of the West.

He is a straight-talking general who is either loyal to his commitments or whacks you hard when you let up on yours ! No two ways about it.

He believes that pursuing radical religious doctrine in this day and age and letting such practice rule society, can only be mediaeval, if not downright disastrous for a nation of 170 million people.

Not a boot-licker or doormat ('capacho'), though.

Can´t see him change and behave like a politician, though it would be good for everyone, specially the West.

Right now, they have an ally for FREE.

Syed
07-09-2007, 10:56 AM
Hello carioca,
Do you have some sort of military background. I hope I am not being very personal.

Leaving his personal qualities aside, he is not doing his job for which he was trained. I wish all his admirers have army rulers in their countries to understand, what it means for the natives.

PeterSibley
07-09-2007, 05:23 PM
Thank you Syed .

Andrew Craig-Bennett
07-09-2007, 05:31 PM
Syed,

I think I know what you mean. We English have not tried military rule since 1660 (we did not care for it!) but my wife was not an admirer of the late Ferdinand Marcos, however popular he was in the United States.

It was interesting to hear Benazir Bhutto and Imran Khan on the BBC this morning; I suspected that they were both out of touch.

carioca1232001
07-09-2007, 06:10 PM
No military background at all, Syed, but I was 11 years old in 1958 when Gen Ayub Khan declared martial-law and swore himself in as President.

He justified his move as being the only way that wholescale corruption could be combatted in the country.

Fifty years later......and a repeat of similar music ?

There is a saying in Brazil as follows: 'Cada povo tem o governo que merece !' (People have the goverment that they deserve !)

Look at India over the border, roughly 80% Hindu/20% Muslim, where democracy has flourished ever since the Raj was disbanded in 1947.

Had Mohammed Ali Jinnah lived longer and not departed so prematurely post-partition, he would have established a solid foundation for democracy in Pakistan, from which there could be no turning back.

In December 1971, the military junta is demoralised and quits after getting booted out of East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) whereby (civilian) Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto - who had been waiting impatiently in the wings for the supreme job - is called upon to represent Pakistan in a turmoiled session of the UN in New York - and is sworn in as Prime Minister.

What was his record ? Son of an eminent land-owner from Sindh Province, reads law at Oxford in the early 50´s and tops it up with a rather unusual post-grad stint in Political Science at Berkeley, where German-Jewish intellectuals like Herbert Marcuse had taken refuge from Nazi Germany

No sooner in power, he began solidifying his power-base by playing fiddle to the 'mullahs' and 'imams'. Bhutto - of all men in power in Pakistan - the first to be appealing to the religious sentiment of the masses ? It had never happened before, not even with those hard-liner Generals, but there is always a first time.

The post-Bhutto period is now history, which includes his daughter Benazir - former president of the Oxford Union, the second Pakistani to be so elected - who all initially saw as a lighthouse of hope and decency, but who instead was to source tremendous disappointment in the people.

Frankly, could General Musharraf not be the lesser of evils ?

carioca1232001
07-09-2007, 07:16 PM
......We English have not tried military rule since 1660 (we did not care for it!) .........

Three years after moving to Rio in 1971, my company cancelled a sizable order for electronic instruments from Marconi´s in GB, due to endless miner´s strikes that had virtually brought the country to a standstill.

Our newspapers reported that the Army was sent in to operate some essential coal mines and that HM´s Govt. was not ruling out the possibility of deploying the Army on the streets if the law and order situation got out of hand.;)

Still a far cry from having them rule the country, though :o

ishmael
07-09-2007, 08:06 PM
"We English have not tried military rule since 1660"

Oh please, Andrew. That's a ridiculous statement. I've stood at the bridge in Concord, Massachusetts, where you attempted a military statement in 1775, and we gunned you down in great fervor.

By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
Their flag to April's breeze unfurled;
Here once the embattled farmers stood;
And fired the shot heard 'round the world.

Emerson

I imagine also that Mr. Ghandi might have something to say about this circa 1935.

Syed
07-10-2007, 07:57 AM
No military background at all, Syed, but I was 11 years old in 1958 when Gen Ayub Khan declared martial-law and swore himself in as President.

He justified his move as being the only way that wholescale corruption could be combatted in the country.

Fifty years later......and a repeat of similar music ?

There is a saying in Brazil as follows: 'Cada povo tem o governo que merece !' (People have the goverment that they deserve !)

Look at India over the border, roughly 80% Hindu/20% Muslim, where democracy has flourished ever since the Raj was disbanded in 1947.

Had Mohammed Ali Jinnah lived longer and not departed so prematurely post-partition, he would have established a solid foundation for democracy in Pakistan, from which there could be no turning back.

In December 1971, the military junta is demoralised and quits after getting booted out of East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) whereby (civilian) Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto - who had been waiting impatiently in the wings for the supreme job - is called upon to represent Pakistan in a turmoiled session of the UN in New York - and is sworn in as Prime Minister.

What was his record ? Son of an eminent land-owner from Sindh Province, reads law at Oxford in the early 50´s and tops it up with a rather unusual post-grad stint in Political Science at Berkeley, where German-Jewish intellectuals like Herbert Marcuse had taken refuge from Nazi Germany

No sooner in power, he began solidifying his power-base by playing fiddle to the 'mullahs' and 'imams'. Bhutto - of all men in power in Pakistan - the first to be appealing to the religious sentiment of the masses ? It had never happened before, not even with those hard-liner Generals, but there is always a first time.

The post-Bhutto period is now history, which includes his daughter Benazir - former president of the Oxford Union, the second Pakistani to be so elected - who all initially saw as a lighthouse of hope and decency, but who instead was to source tremendous disappointment in the people.

Frankly, could General Musharraf not be the lesser of evils ?

We are determined to prove this otherwise, with the great help of our 'friends'.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".
Benjamin Franklin

Regarding lesser evil, I would quote;

"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Keith Wilson
07-10-2007, 09:01 AM
We English have not tried military rule since 1660
Not ridiculous at all, Jack. Andrew was referring to England. Obviously the Empire was conquered (and sometimes held) militarily, but that's not what he meant.

Thanks much to Syed and Carioca; it's very good to get an inside perspective on something we only read about. I didn't know that about Ali Bhutto; religion and politics seems a particularly volatile mixture on the subcontinent, and it's bad enough elsewhere.

Syed
07-10-2007, 10:21 AM
Syed,
What does Islam mean to you? Is it simply the milieu you were raised in, or is it more to you?
Jack

For me it is the way of life.

ishmael
07-10-2007, 11:11 AM
"Not ridiculous at all, Jack. Andrew was referring to England."

And you separate England from its empire how? To say they weren't milataristic after 1660 is absurd.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-10-2007, 11:37 AM
"Not ridiculous at all, Jack. Andrew was referring to England."

And you separate England from its empire how? To say they weren't militaristic after 1660 is absurd.

The point was on military rule of England - fairly easily found on a map.

Get north of the highland line and you'd maybe choose a different date - but then that's not England either.

Keith Wilson
07-10-2007, 11:44 AM
I didn't say they weren't militaristic. The US has never had military rule, and we've occupied quite a number of places by military force - Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Haiti, the DR, Granada, Panama, Nicaragua . . .

ishmael
07-10-2007, 12:05 PM
"The point was on military rule of England - fairly easily found on a map."

I kinda remember where you are. Geography was a strong suit. Uzbekistan still gives me fits.

Britain was a military empire. To pretend that the way they held it together didn't involve the barrel of a gun is lying, but it's also fair play to admire their sense of rightness. It's admirable. I think Americans have the same sense.

John of Phoenix
07-10-2007, 01:01 PM
The point was on military rule of England ...
Were you under military rule during Vietnam?
Have you been under military rule since March 2003?
See the difference?