Hello All / Wood Questions

[Arko]

This is my first post here and I would like to say that this is a very nice site and the forum is really great.
Congratulations to 1stnewyorker a few posts down. Seems he is living my dream. He may be able to help me with my questions along the way. I am in the dreaming/ early planning stages of the Gunning dory as drawn by J. Gardner.This will be my first boat larger than a kayak.
I have only J Gardners " Building Classic Small Craft ll" as my main source of information pertaining specifically to dory construction. Though, I understand it is one of the most informative out there. It did not include any information on the grain orientation of the wood for various parts of the boat. Does it really matter? Any good reading on this or experience from the collective? I am specifically wondering about the frames. Should I use flat sawn boards or qsawn boards or, again, does it matter?
I have a source here locally where I can get white oak, both kiln and air dried. What exactly should I be looking for? Are there any conditions that I should be aware of that would render the lumber completely( or even marginally ) unsuitable for boatbuilding? This is just a small cabinet shop that happens to have thier own mill and are in no way involved in boatbuilding. On the other hand , I don't exactly live in the Mecca for wooden boatbuilding, or any other boatbuilding for that matter, and shipping could cost a good deal. People around here just think I am crazy getting in the water in a wooden boat. They also have some 20' lengths.
Are there any parts of this boat that white oak would be unsuitable for? I was going to use it exclusively save for the thwarts and a few other parts which will be mahogany.
Technical question. On the Gunning dory in Mr. Gardners book, the bottom is made up of two 3/8" plys. Is there a specific reason for this or could a 3/4" ply be substituted? Would fir marine ply be suitable for this and the garboards or should I use one of the better grades of mahogany plys for the entire boat?
I'm really wanting to do this right and end up with a quality boat and I'm sure you folks can help.

[Thad]

If you are planking with plywood you can do well with white oak for all other parts, although it is heavy for seats and floorboards. For rails and chine logs you definately want air dry. 3/8 is easier to bend than 3/4.

[NormMessinger]

Regarding grain orientation: That has been discussed here in the past. Kinda seems like there were a varienty of opinions, flat sawn bends better, edge grain is stiffer (Guess that sort of follows, eh.) I'm of a mind it doesn't really matter in this application. We are not doing critical engineering.

White Oak will make a nice boat that is rather heavy.

[Bob Smalser]

It did not include any information on the grain orientation of the wood for various parts of the boat. Yes it does....look throughout the book for his endgrain drawings of similar applications and you'll find exactly what you are looking for.

Buy his Dory book....larger drawings of the Chamberlain Gunner and full of "how-to" detail on dory construction in general.

And please define your location better than "USA"...that's no help at all recommending where and what wood from who.

[ 12-30-2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Arko]

Bob, thanks for pointing that out about the grain in the drawings. I was impressed with the level of detail in the book before and even more so now. I am located in Southern West Virginia.

[1stnewyorker]

I'm not sure how much advice I'll be able to offer since this is my first boat. I am a member of the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum, however, and as such, I have a lot of friends who are master boat builders. They've been guiding me along the way, and answering any questions that I can't answer in Gardners "Dory Book." They have told me that quarter sawn lumber is far better for the hull strakes. If using plain sawn (like I'm doing), you should use narrower planks.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Arko:
...I am located in Southern West Virginia.Black locust. Both stems, frames, centercase timber framing.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Arko]

I had checked most of the larger operations around here and mainly what I found was white and red oak, poplar, basswood and the others were mainly softwoods. Perhaps there is not a large demand for black locust. I have put out some e mails but havent gotten any answers as of yet.
Any particular reason to favor black locust over w oak or did you suggest it only as an alternative?
How about douglas fir for use as the battens?Any thoughts on that?
A departure from the wood issue. Any thoughts about doing away with the mechanical fasteners and using epoxy instead? Isn't there some sort of reaction that can happen over time with the fasteners and the epoxy and glass? What about glassing the entire outside of the hull?
Sorry for rambling. I am just starting to get to where I can seriously entertain the thouht of actually beginning this beautiful boat and have many questions.

[Bob Smalser]

Any particular reason to favor black locust over w oak or did you suggest it only as an alternative?

How about douglas fir for use as the battens?Any thoughts on that?

Any thoughts about doing away with the mechanical fasteners and using epoxy instead? Isn't there some sort of reaction that can happen over time with the fasteners and the epoxy and glass? What about glassing the entire outside of the hull?

Do a search here and at Design and you'll find a few Chamberlain Gunners, to include the one I'm currently fitting out with rudder, deck and rig. William Chamberlain designed (refining older designs) and perfected it over a century ago...John Gardner just measured and drew it with a few modern changes to accommodate updated rigs, material and methods.

Popular boat...but built cutting-edge light and very flexible, ie, take the thwarts out and you can twist that hull into a pretzel...so don't go changing around scantling sizes or stock species dramatically without some careful thought.

What you build it outta determines how you'll build it. Gardner drew painted 3/8 fir ply planking and 7/8 W Oak sawn frames with fabric tape covering the planking seams...all epoxied batten seam construction...but built one with 1/4 ply reinforced with full fabric on the outside. Fasteners are only really needed to hold the members together til the epoxy cures, but omitting them and trusting the glue alone is unwise, as they reinforce the glue joint both for longevity and as a final backup should something fail in use.

Gardner also drew the traditional alternative as an inset on Sheet #2 with 1/2 solid planking, either pine, cedar or cypress and 3/4 WO sawn frames with 7/16 WO bent frames between, the beveled lapstrake planking fastened with copper rivets.

The cheapest method in W VA ...and the best training...is to go to Woodweb and find a local sawyer who has green cedar, pine and oak stock...and build it traditionally as Gardner shows in detail in his Dory Book. Cleated White Pine bottom, Atlantic White (or even Eastern Red) cedar planking, White Oak framing, pine thwarts.

Handle it correctly, and the wood will season as you build the boat.

But traditional also takes the most technique fitting laps and fastening, although that's likely not beyond you with a kayak already completed and is much more pleasant than dealing with fabric and goo. Find the right sawyer, and these days plywood and goo will be much more expensive but require slightly less technique....

...or that's the party line, anyway. Personally, I don't find fitting butted and beveled plywood one whit easier than fitting solid stock, only a lot less pleasant, and I find solid easier to fix mistakes in, no harder to scarf and much easier to seal and finish.

Substitute wood based on its engineering properties and weight found in your USDA Wood Handbook. Doug Fir heartwood in #1 Select, for example, can substitute for oak if you plus up the scantling size a bit...run the strength numbers and find out how much. Laminated frames from highgraded #2 DF heartwood strips could be done the same size as WO for considerably less weight and that's the way I'd do it building that hull from scratch here in DF country. I'd still want pine thwarts and bottom, however, as DF is unnecessarily heavy there and cedar is too soft. Same applies to Black Locust, Osage Orange or Sassafras...all of which are available locally.

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/sawdry.pl

http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/techmenu.html

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6035832/77494213.jpg

[ 01-02-2005, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Arko]

Mr. Smalser,

Again, thank you for your insight and advice. Both are taken with gratitude. Thanks for the links too.
I have no plans to deviate from the specified scantling sizes, I only asked about the doug fir battens (which I would have increased slightly in size) because I can get some 22' lengths and thought it may be a possibility. Suppose it still is.
As far as the flexibility and weight of the hull are concerned, I was going to go with a more bulletproof build-up and cover the entire 3/8" hull in glass outside, weight be damned.
I have no intentions of even trying to blow my own horn in company such as this, but I have actually built several kayaks, two S&G's and a traditional skin boat from Eastern Canada. No glass or goo in that one. Not even a screw. All steamed ribs, scarfed 22' gunwales and mortise and tenon joints. I loved building that one. Here are a few pics of that one.... Maybe. http://img81.exs.cx/img81/3199/SVI_00042.jpg[I MG]http://img91.exs.cx/img91/4453/svi00025sr.th.jpg[/IMG] (http://img91.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img91&image=svi00025sr.jpg)

[Venchka]

I mentioned black locust because it's often overlooked for boat building, it is native to your area and I personally think it looks so good. Here's a link with some good information comparing black locust to white oak.

Black Locust (http://www.altalabinstrument.com/wood/marine.htm)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Arko]

Venchka,
Your research skills are appearently a level or two above my own. How in the world did you find these folks? That is some great stuff, thanks alot.

[Venchka]

I can not tell a lie. No secrets here. www.google.com (http://www.google.com)

Search for black locust or black locust lumber

www.woodfinder.com (http://www.woodfinder.com) is good too but they don't list everybody.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D