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ishmael
06-21-2007, 08:28 AM
I watched "Elephant" a Gus Van Sant film and winner of the Palm D'or 2003. Gawd, what a boring, pedantic bit of film. Estranged, homosexual young men plotting an attack on their high school, but it's real problem is with pace. There are endless tracking shots just following various kids through the hallways. I'll bet the back of some kid walking down the hall is a third of the footage.

But anyway, it depicts twisted high school kids getting semi-auto rifles in the mail, or by UPS, and then going on a rampage. Didn't the feds outlaw such deliveries after JFK was gunned down?

In no way to minimize the problem of the real shootings, but this film gets nowhere close to a real look. Frankly, until we are willing to look at the the use of psychotropics in our youth, along with the horrific violence being peddled as entertainment, we are nowhere closer either.

How much is "big pharma" lobbying to keep a lid on the real story here? Who owns which news outlets and what's their portfolio in pharmaceutical companies? How much did you hear about the various drugs the shooter at V. Tech was prescribed? Virtually nothing, yet he was drugged and shrunk like a lab rat. Look beyond the surface at any of the horrific and spectacular school shootings of the last decade and you'll find a similar story.

Now, who wants to take up the delicate topic of censorship? Some things shouldn't be available.

Rant over.

htom
06-21-2007, 02:06 PM
Probably illegal, but that doesn't make it not possible -- which is part of the problem with making things illegal.

paladin
06-21-2007, 03:13 PM
Some gun laws just drive prices up......do ya wanna machine gun.....if you know where to look you can purchase plans for the Gustav M-45(swedish-K) submachine gun or the smith and wesson copy,...sten gun.....or it doesn't take much ingenuity to convert most small semi-auto weapons to full auto.....I converted a Remington 1100 shotgun to full selectable fire and added a magazine extension in Vietnam.....most semi auto handguns can be made full auto or selective burst fire in a few minutes, even from a closed bolt.......I think movies are what most folks have on their minds when they go for the AK-47 look......I like shotguns.....best broom around..

huisjen
06-21-2007, 03:15 PM
Rant over.

Well, that's a relief.

Phillip Allen
06-21-2007, 04:55 PM
The whole gun "control" issue is smoke and mirrors from the get-go...sorta like some of the "religous" stuff or abortion...at best, they may be symptoms of a problem but not the problem itself...the frenetic attacks on those issues is like shooting bullets through smoke in an attempt to put out the fire

BrianW
06-21-2007, 04:55 PM
Ish,

Depends on several factors. Inter-State sales must go between Federal Firearm License Holders (FFLs.) Long arms can be mailed via the USPS, but hand guns can not.

(as with all things government, there may be exceptions, I'm not an expert)

Intra-State sales between residents of that state do not require a FFL, and naturally can still be mailed USPS.

These are basic Federal rules, there may be various State laws which can change things.

paladin
06-21-2007, 05:22 PM
You can buy parts for a gun...almost any firearm...except the receiver.....but....you can order a complete parts kit through Shotgun news for instance, for a Mac-9, 10 or 11.......you cannot purchase the receiver....but....the receiver is a flat steel plate....I forget the exact guage, and you can purchase the flat and bend it on a brake, with all the cutouts and stampings for the selective fire lever........there will be two different addresses...one for the parts....and another for the steel flat because that would be a complete gun kit.....a little deep digging will usually find that the parts kits and receiver blanks are somehow related.....same with weapons silencers....the tube carried the serial number...so you had to buy the metal tube and cut it to length...but you could buy the entire internal parts kit....then the BATF changed the rules so that it's illegal to have any part of a suppressor unless you pay them 200 bucks for the privilege. Somewhere/somewhyfor howcome folks wanna play with full auto weapons.....but take for instance the mac-11...it fires at a cyclic rate of 1100 rounds per minute......the cheapest 9mm ammo that I've seen was about 7 bucks for 25 rounds of old surplus stuff from the late 70's.....furrin' made.....that's over 300 bucks for 1 minute of "fun".....I've had enough of that "fun" to last a loooooong time, and the giv'ment was paying for the ammo.....

glenallen
06-21-2007, 05:26 PM
...."like shooting bullets through smoke in an attempt to put out the fire."

This is why I keep coming back here.
You boys come up with some of the best word play I've seen anywhere!
That, and the fact that I'm easily entertained!

JimD
06-21-2007, 06:39 PM
U.S.Gun laws
Reminds of the quote by Mahatma Ghandi when asked what he thought of Western civilization. He said he thought it would be a great idea.

glenallen
06-21-2007, 06:53 PM
Dang, Jack, were you never a kid?
Would you have wanted somebody taking away your guns and drugs?
And let's face it, AstraZeneca and Smith&Wesson deserve to make a living too, don't they?
Perspective, man, perspective!

Bob Adams
06-21-2007, 07:34 PM
Here ya go Palidin....100 rnds 9mm for $20.00
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/67851-6472-288.html

I've found better deals though, I send quite a few 9mm rounds down range from my P 95 for stress relief.

paladin
06-21-2007, 08:47 PM
I gotta be careful....my eyes ain't as good as they once were and I need an entire magazine load for the Browning to make sure I hit the target.....That's why the Model 19 is loaded with a 357 shotshell with 1/4 oz of shot....I figger if someone is stupid enough to take me on in the house I can see well enough to aim10 inches below their navel, then call the cops......:D

Bob Cleek
06-21-2007, 08:52 PM
Funny thing, but the price of ammo really got beyond fun. Reloading became tedious as well. THEN some of the indoor ranges (not that I use them much) started requiring non-lead ceramic bullets and that really drove the price up. So... just on a lark I picked up a scoped Beeman "adult air gun" for $125 at the sporting goods store. Fires a .177 pellet at 1000 fps. Wicked accurate. Huge amount of fun to shoot and the damn ammo is practically free... well, maybe a penny a piece or something like that. About the same punch as a .22 without the noise and regulations. I use it indoors sometimes with a .22 trap. I do miss the smell of cordite in the morning, though... smells like... like... aw, never mind!

Memphis Mike
06-21-2007, 10:58 PM
Well, that's a relief.

Yeah, me too. We got Guns and Gays and Drugs. Just throw in some Cats and Jung and we got er licked.:rolleyes:

BrianW
06-21-2007, 11:13 PM
Yeah, me too. We got Guns and Gays and Drugs. Just throw in some Cats and Jung and we got er licked.:rolleyes:

Funny! :D

WX
06-21-2007, 11:57 PM
JimD, poetic!

US gun laws, I would have said, what a good idea.

ishmael
06-22-2007, 04:51 AM
"Yeah, me too. We got Guns and Gays and Drugs. Just throw in some Cats and Jung and we got er licked."

Your blinders have you missing the point. That the kids in the film were homosexual was merely a part of their alienation. It's Van Sant's cliche, not mine.

The point. We are drugging our young people at staggering rates, with powerful, legal, prescribed drugs. It's well documented now that some of these drugs cause some to become unbalanced. Has that slowed it? Maybe a bit, but we're still drugging rather than encouraging the complexity of human interaction, such as real parenting and mentoring.

Something like fifteen percent of young males in America is on some psychotropic. What happened? No one, or a miniscule number, was drugged by legal, prescribed drugs when I was a kid. Kids had problems, and they got talked out with adults. It wasn't perfect, but it worked pretty well. Not a one picked up a gun and went on a rampage.

You tell me what is going on? The left seems to defend this use of drugs. Tell me how you see it.

P.S. The US has a plethora of gun laws on the books. I'm not against reasonable laws, but that's, perhaps, not the real issue here.

WX
06-23-2007, 07:53 PM
The left seems to defend this use of drugs.
Not those bloody socialists again!

How many left wing corporations do you know that own drug companys? I think you will find the problem lies with the conservative right :D
Just try reducing the fat and sugar intake and see what happens.

ishmael
06-23-2007, 08:32 PM
"Tell me how you see it?"

The left does endorse the drugs. "We're going to fix this." "We need to control everything, and then it will be a utopia." The left has also endorsed the loss of the father, and the making of families that aren't real families, where the adolescent is lost.

Not to point simplistic fingers at the left. It's a complex topic. But I want to know why alienated young men, who've always been a part of the human landscape, now feel the need to pick up weapons and gun down their fellows.

I grew up in an age of tremendous questioning and alienation. Guns were available then, yet no one even considered taking them up in anger at school. Now many small suburban schools have armed police about, and there's talk about of retina scans and Rfid tags for everyone.

You tell me what has happened. My high school was far from perfect, pretty boring, but even though it was a large suburban high there were no metal detectors or armed guards.

Kaa
06-23-2007, 09:20 PM
You tell me what has happened.

Fear, paranoia, and hysterics.

Kaa

paladin
06-23-2007, 09:25 PM
over reaction.....proportionally...there's probably not much more happening than happened 40 years ago.....it's just that we have more, "better?" and instant news dissemination.......

seanz
06-23-2007, 09:59 PM
Fear, paranoia, and hysterics.

Kaa

Surely not.


http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/the-death-dealers/2007/06/23/1182019433463.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

brionl
06-23-2007, 10:13 PM
Surely not.


http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/the-death-dealers/2007/06/23/1182019433463.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

Flash! Breaking News! Criminals don't obey the Law!
Tonight at Eleven, we discover gravity!

Bob Adams
06-23-2007, 10:33 PM
What a load of....nevermind. In the States, that publication would be known as the Inquirer.

BrianW
06-24-2007, 01:27 AM
over reaction.....proportionally...there's probably not much more happening than happened 40 years ago.....it's just that we have more, "better?" and instant news dissemination.......

I think there's much wisdom in your words oh wise one.

pipefitter
06-24-2007, 02:14 AM
"Tell me how you see it?"

The left does endorse the drugs. "We're going to fix this." "We need to control everything, and then it will be a utopia." The left has also endorsed the loss of the father, and the making of families that aren't real families, where the adolescent is lost.

Not to point simplistic fingers at the left. It's a complex topic. But I want to know why alienated young men, who've always been a part of the human landscape, now feel the need to pick up weapons and gun down their fellows.

I grew up in an age of tremendous questioning and alienation. Guns were available then, yet no one even considered taking them up in anger at school. Now many small suburban schools have armed police about, and there's talk about of retina scans and Rfid tags for everyone.

You tell me what has happened. My high school was far from perfect, pretty boring, but even though it was a large suburban high there were no metal detectors or armed guards.

It starts out before the drugs. Your best points are about the lacking of parental/family interaction. For one,not being able to whip their *sses when they go over the edge starting at such a young age with their allowable,in your face, temper tantrums. There is times when mature reasoning of bad behavioral decisions and time outs don't get thru to the mind and psyche of a child that's going off the deep end. Most people I know,that were kids when we were,can remember one good encounter with the "o'l man", that was enough of a physical interaction to last a life time to where if nothing else,he had your attention when trying to make a point by less extreme means. Seems that nowadays,parents have enough time for one or the other.Physical confrontations without rewards of positive family interaction otherwise,or the submissive approach(drugs if need be) to avoid stressful confrontations with the children. Heck,half of the parents are now medicated to the hilt as well.

If we can't gain the respect of our children at home,how could we ever expect them to have self respect or the respect of their peers? It takes alot of time to gain that in a positive,constructive way, that just doesn't coincide with the time structure of the modern, 2 income family. People that are having better luck at it would probably agree that keeping up with a child's growth mentally/emotionally is a full time job. Not much time for the golf course unless ofcourse they are to be included and happen to enjoy spending time with you that way.

If left to raise themselves, or pickled to the point where they never become themselves,there is no telling what you will end up with.

seanz
06-24-2007, 03:49 AM
What a load of....nevermind. In the States, that publication would be known as the Inquirer.
This from 'The Age' link.


In Australia only an underworld enforcer or the dangerously deluded — or both, it seemed last Monday — would carry such a man killer, more powerful than Victoria Police service revolvers.
The pistol that blighted so many lives was found at a city building site soon after the shootings. It is a .40 calibre Llama Minimax. It is small, relatively light and yet, with its hefty calibre, all too deadly. Its stubby barrel is not made for accuracy — to hit targets or hunt — but to blow a hole in humans at murderously close rangeSo there you go folks it was the pistol what done it.
Fear must sell newspapers.I've been reading 'The Age' for a long time now and this is by far the worst article I've seen.

ishmael
06-24-2007, 06:03 AM
over reaction.....proportionally...there's probably not much more happening than happened 40 years ago.....it's just that we have more, "better?" and instant news dissemination.

I agree and disagree. The instant news feeds the fear and paranoia, but there ARE these terrible school shootings now when there weren't forty years ago. The only one I can think of from when I was a kid was Charles Whitman at the U. of Texas in the sixties, and that was found on autopsy to have an organic cause, a brain tumor that pushed him out of the coconut palm.
There've been what, a dozen high profile shootings in American schools in the last decade? Except for odd circumstances like Whitman it didn't happen forty years ago. The availability of guns is more restricted now, so it has to be something else.

If the left gains a more significant majority in Congress our next election the push isn't likely gonna be to look at the use of prescribed drugs in our youth, or the proliferation of violence as entertainment in video games and film, it's gonna be for more gun laws. Just a reminder from my perspective, "big pharma" has deep political pockets.

Thanks all for your observations. You always give me stuff to chew on.

JBreeze
06-24-2007, 08:01 PM
Quote: "...just a reminder from my perspective, "big pharma" has deep political pockets."

Here is a study from Canada........

"TORONTO (CP) - Children whose parents divorce are nearly twice as likely to be prescribed Ritalin in the aftermath of the split, a Canadian study reports..."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20070604/ca_pr_on_na/ritalin_and_divorce

http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=F8A5559F-E7F2-99DF-

I guess Big Pharma has infiltrated Canada, too;) .....or maybe the drugs are being used for problems that weren't as prevalent 40 years ago.

paladin
06-24-2007, 09:11 PM
Brian..my granddad was a turn of the century/into the thirties U.S. Marshall...he watched early tv at our house when I was 14/15 years old when reporting violence was the big news items on tv.....he said then that even though folks east of the Mississsippi river stopped carrying guns, violence was still worse there than in the western states. Radio and tv made it easier to report and was the main topics in a household.

WX
06-24-2007, 10:06 PM
"We're going to fix this." "We need to control everything, and then it will be a utopia."

Is that the Horst Wessel song I can hear in the background?

I get nervous when I see expressions like that.

ishmael
06-25-2007, 06:23 AM
"I get nervous when I see expressions like that."

Me too. The good left thinks they will fix it with more rules. And sometimes more rules are necessary. The libertarian right(which is basically dead in America now except for a few. What passes for the conservative in our Congress is just as pro big government as the liberal) says let the people work it out, it'll be a little messy at times, but they'll work it out better than government can. Neither end of the spectrum has a monopoly on the right way forward.

My take is that it's an ancient tension, and leaving aside left and right the control folks have gained the upper hand since 9/11. I vote, but am not terribly politically active other than that. I should write to my representatives more than I have.

geeman
06-25-2007, 06:58 AM
I work with the public daily.My job requires me to interact with the public.
Every day I see children from the very young on up to teenagers throw a fit in public to get what they want.I see and hear teenagers telling their mom that mom is stupid.I hear teens and young kids cussing their parents.And I watch the parents do NOTHING.I see parents knuckle under and buy what the kid wants simply to shut them up rather then deal with the kid.
I find the way parents handle their kids today disgusting and it doesnt surprise me when the kid grows up expecting EVERYBODY to knuckle under, and then goes spastic when the world doesnt give them what they demand.