Latest deck seam favorite?

[KAIROS]

We're within a couple of weeks of having our teak deck seams ready to caulk. The seams are 1/8" wide by 1/4" deep. We have a good idea of how to prepare for the task. We are looking for the most recent recommendations on the caulk type and brand.

A review of online literature, forums, and a couple of calls to shipyards implies that Teak Deck Systems 440 is giving great results these days. I have not heard of any bad experiences with it as I've heard related to Boatlife LifeCaulk.

Thumbs up or down on TDS440?

[JimConlin]

Up.

[Concordia...41]

Up.

We used CPES to prep the seams and then TDS. What may be interesting is that the boat is still out of the water and has continued to dry out. If I can find the picture, I have two spots where the teak is actually splitting and the seam is intact :eek:

The crack is only on the surface and not getting deeper, and I find that quite a testament to CPES' / TDS adhesion qualities.

[KAIROS]

[quote=Concordia...41;1598675]....We used CPES to prep the seams and then TDS....

Concordia, Yawl r' so helpful. :) Thanks. The Fein deck tool really did work for me. I know you had a different experience with it. Some slight difference in our seams, I guess.

Since your caulking was such a success, can you provide the critical steps in your method? Or did you just follow the published directions (though the TDS directions don't mention priming with CPES)? Here are other questions that I can't help but ask, though there's no obligation to answer:

1. How wide and deep, and what shape (V or U or square) are your seams? Ours are V-shaped but will be nearly square after routing.
2. Did you bother with the bond-breaker? Pros I chatted with said it is not necessary.
3. Did you sand after caulking? We'd like to do some fairing of the old teak and new bungs, and are wondering if we should do that first or sand the teak and seams together. We don't want to wreck the new seams though.
4. Since your boat is under cover and away from water, I expect the deck was very dry. What was the temperature and humidity like during the cure time? It's 60-ish and humid in our temporary in-water covered shed.....she's been under cover all winter. We could bring her out in the sun for caulking.
5. The splitting of the teak is a testament, but I wonder if it means the TDS is not flexible/elastic enough?

[Concordia...41]

1. I would describe it as a U or nearly square

2. We did not use the bond breaker*

3. I sanded after caulking and pulling tape

4. The mizzen deck was done in the boat yard (out of the water) under a tarp cover. I don't even remember what time of year it was. The boat was moved indoors January 2005. I just did the bridge deck and cockpit floor this year. If you have any questions on temperature or humidity, I'd call the folks at TDS (or whichever product you choose). As well all know, this is NOT a job you want to do over... :rolleyes:

5. I believe the TDS is plenty flexible. Any time stress is placed on two or more items (or spots), the weaker will break.

*I researched the subject to death when we first started the project and made decisions based on the information available. Right now though I don't remember which subjects / people's advice I relied on, I just know I spent an inordinate amount of time reading product literature, WBF posts, and other items I found on-line.

When I was looking through the picture files for the spot on the mizzen deck where the teak split, I found a lot of pictures of the cockpit and bridge deck seam project. I'll put together a quick Imagestation album if nobody critiques the order or captions. ;)

- M

[Concordia...41]

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2090740634

Warning - it is in no way shape or form a tutorial. Just some pictures that might help with a couple of things.

- M

[mcdenny]

I just started using the TDS product on seats and floorboards consisting of 1/4" Garapa strips over plywood substrate. The TDS product is easy to apply and sets up quickly.

The directions on the tube do not say to mask but rather to sand off the mess after the goop cures. It surely does make a mess but its not too tough to sand back to clean wood. A belt sander with 80 grit running with the grain works well, followed by a clean up with 150 with a RO sander.

Best price I found was at Jamestown Dist, $9.75/ 10 oz tube in case qtys (12).

I used epoxy with graphite to fill the seams on the last boat. The TDS is much easier to apply but a lot more expensive too.

[KAIROS]

.......Warning - it is in no way shape or form a tutorial. Just some pictures that might help with a couple of things.

Sorry, but we had our wireless laptop right on the boat and were using the photos as a step by step guide. It was only later that we realized we did not actually own a Concordia. We cualked several yards of seams that did not exist. If only you had given the warning BEFORE the link to the photos!

Really though, thanks so much for the information and photos. It takes much courage to present like that and let us see mistakes and whatever....the way it goes. You folks are great. I wish more of us could present our experiences without fearing judgement! The value here is communication....not just what is the exact right thing to do.

[cdragon]

An old shipwright friend who has laid many many new teak decks over the years used to use cassette tape as the bond breaker in the bottom of the seam. Being a thoughtful ex-hippie kind of guy-he would spend a great deal of time picking cassette tape with the "right" kind of music on it. He felt it became part of the boat's soul and to have AC/DC or some other horrible music would not suit a wodden boat's soul... I think he might be right....

[Concordia...41]

Sorry, but we had our wireless laptop right on the boat and were using the photos as a step by step guide. It was only later that we realized we did not actually own a Concordia. We cualked several yards of seams that did not exist. If only you had given the warning BEFORE the link to the photos!



:D :D Good one. :) Good luck with your project and now you have to keep us posted in return. ;)

[Lew Barrett]

TDS is now available in white. I wish it had been when I did my decks. I used Boatlife white (that's what there was) and after two seasons, it's holding up well, but it lives under eight coats of varnish which provides a great deal of UV protection, and another (albeit skimpy) margin of protect. If I had to do it again (no!) I'd use the Teak Decks.

[KAIROS]

TDS worked very well. I recommend it. The seams hold together against the force of drying/shrinking teak planks. The planks split before the seams let go. Follow the directions on the tube (except Margo says we don't have to use the bond-breaker;)).

Here's the result:

http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/festival2009_8.JPG

[Lew Barrett]

Looks great, and great choice. In the years since we started this dialog, TDS has become almost the standard default compound for this job with nothing but good reports around here.

PS: My Boatlife job failed after two years forcing me to repay the entire boat, which I did with TDS. A year later, complete success. But what a PITA!!!

I have not got good feelings about Boatlife, let me tell you!

[John P Lebens]

I can add a bit of related experience here. I used the boat life caulk on some deck seams last spring and it failed within a few weeks. When I talked with a very helpful person at the company, they concluded I had not prepped correctly (bondbreaker, right cleaning solvent, etc). Still, I won't even consider using it again.

I understand that the TDS advises no varnish or paint on the top of it.

Our local Chris Craft rebuilder, who does very fine work and has had plenty of experience with seams, recommends 3M 5200. They have it in black, white and a mahogany color. He also like TDS. He said forget about Boat Life except for bedding deck parts. He suggested varnishing first, then installing the caulk after.

[Bob Cleek]

Ah, gee... Maybe you should have somebody who really knows about stopping seams in decks take a look at yours before you start pumping the goop. I don't know the size of your boat or the type of deck (true planking or veneer over ply, or whatever) and I don't want to be a HUGE spoilsport, BUT...

You said your seams are 1/8" WIDE and 1/4" DEEP. Reasonable minds may differ, but IMHO what is required for a lasting job are seams that are at least as wide as they are deep. Moreover, "injecting" seam compound in a 1/8" space is pretty tedious work, especially if you expect to get a solid packing to a depth twice that width. Deck seams are generally 1/4" wide, or so.

The reason for this is adhesion and flexibility. Think "rubber band." The longer the rubber band, the more "stretch" you will get out of it before it breaks. The same is true of flexible seam compound. A narrow seam won't "stretch" as much as a wider one, which means a narrow seam will tear away from the sides of the seam when the wood shrinks much more than a wider seam with more rubber to allow more stretch. The need for some material that prevents sticking at the bottom of the seam (be it traditional cotton caulking material, or some sort of tape on non-caulked seams) serves the same purpose. By preventing the compound from sticking to the bottom of the seam, you get more stretch across the seam. If the bottom of the compound is stuck fast, you have a situation where the "width" of the seam compound "rubber band" is reduced to nothing and tear out at the seam sides results.

It's your boat, but it seems you've already put a lot of time and money into this job and it would be a shame to blow it on the final step. People may disagree, so all I can say is "check it out" before you fill your 1/8" wide and 1/4" deep seams. IF I am correct, it will be a lot easier to rout those seams wider than they are deep (for a "stretchy" "rubber band") than after the stuff has hardened and then pulled away from the seam sides and you have to reef it all out.

[KAIROS]

....People may disagree, so all I can say is "check it out" before you fill your 1/8" wide and 1/4" deep seams. IF I am correct, it will be a lot easier to rout those seams wider than they are deep (for a "stretchy" "rubber band") than after the stuff has hardened and then pulled away from the seam sides and you have to reef it all out.

I understand the concept that if goop can elongate 100% for example, that the less of it you have, the less it can elongate. I'm not sure why having the depth and width of the seam somewhat different makes a difference.....which ever is the smaller diameter limits the elongation in the direction of it's axis.

Even more criminal, though :D, I routed the seems freehand with a dremmel tool with the wand attachment :eek:. So the seams are between an eighth and a quarter deep....it was harder to control depth freehand. The width of the seams is a little more than an eighth....whatever the bit size is. The width looks good and consistent in the finished job except in those couple of spots where it's not.

The original seams were v-shaped and very thin...even considering deck wear. In the photo below of the seams before the project, the ruler has tenth-inch tics. This was typical. How did it hold water?! I at least doubled the seam dimensions and made them U-shaped. I was thinking, "dog-gonnit, now there's plenty of goop in those seams for elongation". If not, it was those SOBs that put the deck down 30 years ago that misled me ;)...Note too in the photo how narrow the planks are....1/4 seams seemed too much asthetically.


Moreover, "injecting" seam compound in a 1/8" space is pretty tedious work, especially if you expect to get a solid packing to a depth twice that width.After some experimentation in the shop we were able to smoosh the cartridge tip down so it would go deep down in the seam. We had scraps of teak on ply decking in the shop to experiment on. When cured, we cut across the seams and saw that the entire seam was filled....even the slight crack between the bottom of the planks.

I'll update the thread when the seams fail.

Thanks all.

http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/seam_width.jpg

[Lew Barrett]

I can add a bit of related experience here. I used the boat life caulk on some deck seams last spring and it failed within a few weeks. When I talked with a very helpful person at the company, they concluded I had not prepped correctly (bondbreaker, right cleaning solvent, etc). Still, I won't even consider using it again.

I understand that the TDS advises no varnish or paint on the top of it.
.

I couldn't agree with you more. Thereare stronger words I could use, but CRAP comes to mind for me when Boatlife is mentioned. Crap is both cheaper, and no less effective in my experience! And you don't come to have a false reliance on it!

TDS has worked superbly for me, and I have a little secret for you.....you can indeed varnish over it no matter what the company says.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/IMG_2067.jpg

[BBSebens]

TDS worked very well. I recommend it. The seams hold together against the force of drying/shrinking teak planks. The planks split before the seams let go. Follow the directions on the tube (except Margo says we don't have to use the bond-breaker;)).

Here's the result:

http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/festival2009_8.JPG

nice work.

Im not familiar with your boat... what is it?

[KAIROS]

...I'm not familiar with your boat... what is it?

details of the restoration and boat at

http://www.yachtflyers.com/ABLE/

After growning up with New England designed and built boats.....it looks different. It's grown on me though.

[Concordia...41]

She's gorgeous! Thanks for the update!

And yes, 2+ years later I'm still happy with the TDS. It has held in all areas - EXCEPT for a couple with exactly zero prep - you know that odd hard to get to spot that you realize as you're caulking along that didn't even get shop vac'd out but you keeping going anyway :(

Seriously, it is a superior product and one that I wouldn't hesitate to use again. Actually, the only thing I would do different is NOT spend several dozen hours researching other products... ;)

- M

[SV Papillon]

Are you going in at Jensons? Looks like Orcas in the background. I think you will be happy with your choices of goop. I used the same combo, TDS for seams and 291 black for the less aggreable stuff, covering boards and frames. I did thourougly clean sand and use the sika primer, 2 years and still great. I am impressed at how well the tds bonds to itself. Spots where I have had leaks I just knifed the rubber back with a razor knife cleaned and reshot. Great looking Job!!!
Jake

[KAIROS]

Are you going in at Jensons?......

Yes. It is the only yard in these islands where you can still do your own work.

This year though, they are insisting on doing the bottom painting themselves. Explanation from Mike: last environmental inspection, boat owners had left too many left over brushes, empty cans, crusty rollers in the weeds.

This reminds me: Nordine, the ancient gentleman boatbuilder there, who helped make our work logistically and economically feasible, passed away recently. They used to build pretty big boats there.....mostly power, before they became a drive-thru. Here's the yard, with Shipard Cove beyond (and Brown Island). ABLE is down on a tarp sans rig...actually sans everything but shell. Jeremy Snaap's 'Dunlin' is just beyond the green roof peak. Too bad it's cut off...ancient interesting craft (a lubber took the photo). This was 30 months ago.

Hey, this isn't about deck seams!

http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/jensens.jpg

[SV Papillon]

I really like that place. Not to drift but... Really cool to see the shop Art has going and all the various wood boat projects. The first time I hauled out there I had to pull my rudder and do a re-power. I was worried about the expense of re-slinging the boat to pick it up to pull the rudder, what I had to do in seattle because they won't block the boat that high. Mike came over and gave me a shovel. He said "dig a hole, just make sure you fill it in when you are done" Cool place for a re-fit!!
Jake

[KAIROS]

TDS has worked superbly for me, and I have a little secret for you.....you can indeed varnish over it no matter what the company says....

I remember you mentioning a primer to use over the TDS, in some other thread. What worked for you, Lew, or did you just put a finish right on the TDS? And, is the finish still sticking to the TDS after a couple of years? My new paint scheme may come into contact with some TDS around the edges.....

[Lew Barrett]

I "primed" with Old Salem sealer. My process went like this: I wanted something that would stick to the TDS and flash off fast but that would then form a good base and bond for the varnish. Three years, no lifting. I suspect that if you want to coat it, going this route (or one like it) should do the job. A couple of seal coats should do you, light scuff with scotchbrite (so you don't blow through the thin sealer) and varnish as usual. See you in the islands this summer!

[Seneca]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is CPES?

[Nicholas Carey]

"Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer". Basically epoxy cut about 70% with a mixture of various high-powered solvents. Some peoples swear by it; other peoples think you're paying a lot of money for solvents. I'm sure if you search for CPES on this forum, you'll find FMTYEWTK (far more than you ever wanted to know) about it. It's made by "Smith & Co" down in California and resold by a guy calling himself as the "Rot Docter" here in Seattle: he touts the stuff as pretty much the solution for any problem.