Does 200 pounds make a difference?

[davidagage]

Since I have been working on everything around the house, other than Black Spirit, I have had time to study, reflect, ponder, speculate and guess. I have also been studying up on deck replacement. We all know the cost of Teak, so I have looked at other alternatives, which lead me to my question. Teak has a density of 42# per CF. IPE is 69# per CF which would translate to approx 200#s for the CF required to re-deck her. Does this make a real real difference on an approx 13000# boat?

[Paul Pless]

This doesn't really answer your question but I'd like to know more. Is that a solid teak deck or a veneered/molded teak deck over ply?

[davidagage]

Paul, she was built with 3/8" teak layed over 3/8" ply. The teak was screwed to the ply which over her 43 years resulted in the ply having seen better days. Based on the availablity of newer materials I was thinking new ply and then laying the decking down as described here

Laying teak (http://www.island-teak.com/layingdeck.htm)

[brad9798]

In a word, NO!

Think about sailing with three or four adults on deck versus sailing with you and Claudia in the cockpit.

Think about full water tanks versus running dry on water, etc., etc.

The only thing would be to simply double-check to make sure the deck beams can comfortably hold the extra 200# (they will be able to).

Like Paul implies ... perhaps a teak veneer over ply might be the best of both worlds!!!

Brad

[Gary E]

I agree with Brad...

200 lbs means nothing... double that means nothing, and if it does, the boat was designed on the wire edge of being junk to start with.

[donald branscom]

Why don't you just use teak/ holly ply?

It is dimentionally stable too.

[George Roberts]

At some point 200# means something.

[Figment]

I hardly think that 1.5% of the boat's displacement is worth quibbling over, but we all love rationalizations, so here's a fun one:
With modern sails and rigging, you'll likely get most of that 200# back.

[John B]

200lbs? that much more than teak in a 3/8 thickness... I'm surprised... I believe you but I'm surprised.

Probably not a problem I suppose but it hurts doesn't it. I think its very healthy that you're thinking this way David. Too many people just add a little here and a little there and then wonder what went wrong on launching day. If you proceed with a policy of adding lightness you might achieve what what S and S had intended.:D

[Brian Palmer]

Every pound that is added to the boat is another pound of water that has to get pushed out of the way as the boat moves forward. I am not a NA, but I think it would start to make a difference. A pound here, a pound there, pretty soon you're talking real weight.

Brian

[Gary E]

At some point 200# means something.

Only if it's Pot or some other illegal substance...

[Lew Barrett]

I'm not even a sailboat guy, but I'd respectfully argue with a veneered deck, especially a plywood teak and holly solution for a traditional boat and even more especially, for the exterior of a traditional boat.
The question of weight is one only you can answer based on your priorities, but there's little that's more appreciated (in so many ways) on a nicely detailed cruising boat than teak laid decks. Even more so if you're the guy maintaining them. So only you can answer.
Brian is correct; many boats gain weight as they come along. But then, it's really a question of how you see yourself using the boat. If you are primarily cruising her, I think teak would be nice.

[brad9798]

George Roberts, you are correct, ... but in this case you are simply AGAIN being obtuse. :rolleyes:

[JimConlin]

A few random thoughts:

I'm building a 29' trimaran with a target weight of 1600 lbs. An adjustment of 200 lbs would be a disaster.

Perhaps i haven't been watching closely enough, but what i've heard about ipe is that it's hard, heavy, hard to work and cheap. I have not heard whether it weathers well or can be bent or glued. Did I miss something?

A difference of 200 lbs between teak and Ipe works out to about 8 ft^3 or 100 board feet, after the many reductions for waste. Is that about right?

[George Roberts]

"... but in this case you are simply AGAIN being obtuse."

I am sorry. But wasn't the question about determining if this is the straw that breaks the camel's back?

[oakman]

I had a client who wanted deck furniture out of Ipe. I found it to be very brittle, prone to checking, murder on tools and the dust is very toxic. One of our carpenters had to go to the dermatologist for hormone cream to cure the hives he broke out with. If you are at all sensitive to the tropical hardwoods be careful working with Ipe.

[carioca1232001]

Perhaps the following thread, with pics, may be of some use :


http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15509

[mcdenny]

How about Garapa? Weight is 28% more than teak but a good bit less than Ipe, 54 #/ft3. Your 200 # Ipe weight gain would shrink to 87#s with Garapa.

Its harder than teak, janka hardness (whatever that is??) is 1155 for teak, 1631 for Garapa.

It's a very pretty yellow/tan color. The grain is much less pronounced than with teak. A sample panel has been outside since Feb with one half given a quick wipe with teak oil. The oiled side is a little darker but overall there has been virtually no color change in this short test.

I'm buying clear 2x4s meant for patio decks for about $6.00/bdft, about 1/3 cost of teak. (Public Lumber in Detroit) Wood specs list typical uses as decking and boat docks.

I'm epoxying 1/4" thick strips to 1/2 Occoume ply for seats and floorboards in my 25' electric launch. Sticks good with the epoxy and machines OK except for a little tear-out on the planer.

Two sites with more info:
http://tropix.cirad.fr/america/grapia.pdf
http://eastteak.com/products/finehardwoods/garapa_data.html

[carioca1232001]

Is a widely used, weather and rot-resistant boat wood in this country.
The yellow colour tends to darken after some time, though.

The yellow colouring is more intense ('egg yolk') in another wood type - vinhático - which starts darkening as soon as the surface is bared, exuding a self-protective resin. Will last donkey´s years. Currently a protected species.

Ipê should outlive the boat. Has that silvery teak look, when left to the mercy of the elements.

[davidagage]

What great responses, thank you all.

Carioca, your thread on boatdesign was very informative.

Denny, keep us posted about your seats and floorboards, that is pretty much the way I was thinking about for the decks.

Jim, I am figuring in the 127 bd ft range so you are about right. on a 1600# boat, 200# is a lot, on a 13000# boat the impact may not be as great or could be made up elsewhere.

The information gathered from the WBF is just proceless, and there is so much more to sort out before any deck work happens on the boat.

Thanks again..

dg

[Gary E]

This very dense wood requires no sealers or treatments. A sealer coat can be applied to preserve their natural color, which ranges from a rich russet to a classic reddish brown. Left unsealed, they weather to handsome silver patina. One of the more famous commercial applications for Ipe has been the Atlantic City Boardwalk.http://www.austinwholesaledecking.com/atlantic_city.jpg
After 24 years of use, the planks used show almost no wear! Ironwoods in general remain smooth and splinter free due to their being one of the earth's most dense woods. They will not absorb water like softer wood do, twist, splinter, or bow like some woods do. This means that if you use Ipe for your deck, you will be able to walk on it barefoot for a lifetime.

http://www.austinwholesaledecking.com/ipe_uses.htm

If you have ever been to AC I'd guess that since it has lasted over 24 yrs,
on your your boat it should last about 2400 yrs...
you gon a live that long?

[Dan McCosh]

How about Garapa? Weight is 28% more than teak but a good bit less than Ipe, 54 #/ft3. Your 200 # Ipe weight gain would shrink to 87#s with Garapa.

Its harder than teak, janka hardness (whatever that is??) is 1155 for teak, 1631 for Garapa.

It's a very pretty yellow/tan color. The grain is much less pronounced than with teak. A sample panel has been outside since Feb with one half given a quick wipe with teak oil. The oiled side is a little darker but overall there has been virtually no color change in this short test.

I'm buying clear 2x4s meant for patio decks for about $6.00/bdft, about 1/3 cost of teak. (Public Lumber in Detroit) Wood specs list typical uses as decking and boat docks.

I'm epoxying 1/4" thick strips to 1/2 Occoume ply for seats and floorboards in my 25' electric launch. Sticks good with the epoxy and machines OK except for a little tear-out on the planer.

Two sites with more info:
http://tropix.cirad.fr/america/grapia.pdf
http://eastteak.com/products/finehardwoods/garapa_data.html


We used Garapa for covering boards some years ago. It was considerably lighter than ipe, and very tough. Problem we ran into was a kind of resiliant toughness that deflected router blades. Sharp, new, spiral-ground cutters sort of bounced off, which presented a problem in working some edges. Wierd stuff, but now I like the toughness at the deck edge. You use a metal tap and machine screws to attach fittings.

As for the weight issue, while 200 lbs. doesn't seem like much, it's like saying it doesn't matter where the crew sits. Our deck was originally cedar, to save weight, and three of every four deck beams were aircraft spruce, then the fourth oak, to save weight. The mass does affect pitching, and some small affect on the righting moment. While it may be mainly psychological, the concern of the designer for weight in the deck was real.
The replacement deck replaced the oak with ipe, and the spruce with yellow pine, then epoxy/glass. the total probably added 200 lbs to the original, but reduced the weight from what it has become over the years. This on 26,000 lbs. displacement.
If I was to use ipe, I would use very thin planks, glued to plywood, and offset the density that way. To my taste, it's too dark for a deck anyway.

[Figment]

Is it safe to assume that Ipe and these other very dense tropical hardwoods are comparable to teak in terms of slip-resistance?

[Dan McCosh]

Is it safe to assume that Ipe and these other very dense tropical hardwoods are comparable to teak in terms of slip-resistance?

if you are talking about the footing--probably not. We have an ipe deck on the house, and it weathers to a relatively fine surface. Teak tends to erode and stay rough.

[mcdenny]

Picture of my sample Garapa panel. Darker areas are wet.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p5ba6ba9802f8506af3c141d50ba72f1e/e8fa8dbe.jpg

[carioca1232001]

What great responses, thank you all.

Carioca, your thread on boatdesign was very informative.

Denny, keep us posted about your seats and floorboards, that is pretty much the way I was thinking about for the decks.

Jim, I am figuring in the 127 bd ft range so you are about right. on a 1600# boat, 200# is a lot, on a 13000# boat the impact may not be as great or could be made up elsewhere.

The information gathered from the WBF is just proceless, and there is so much more to sort out before any deck work happens on the boat.

Thanks again..

dg

You are welcome.

Should you have any questions, I´ll consult with one of the very few wooden-boat gurus that remain in Rio de Janeiro, Mr Maranhão of Rio´s Yacht Club. We´ve gone 'plastic' here in a big way...........

[JimConlin]

My memory is hazy, but i vaguely recollect reading that:
- Ipe is not a particular species, but rather a marketing name associated with several different species.
- One or more of those species expand & contract somewhat more than our beloved tectonis grandis.

Another approach to doing a teak deck is to apply thin (~3/16") teak over plywood. The cost of the teak is greatly reduced, but the cost of the ply and goo might make up the diffence. If the OP is not religiously opposed to the method, i'd suggest that he analyze the alternative.

[carioca1232001]

If you were to experience an Ipê tree in bloom in Brazil, you would see Ipê trees with purple flowers (Ipê Roxo) and Ipê trees with yellow flowers (Ipê amarelo), a most beautiful sight. Other flowering colourations are also on record.

The ones that 'expand and contract' are not true Ipês, and may even rot in record time.