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daveboling
06-14-2007, 10:31 AM
As a beginner at wooden boat building, approaching the craft without a trust fund, and since the FAQ link to the chisel survey is dead, I'd like to poll the experienced builders on the forum on the following question:
If you had to pick four chisels, and two planes (not including power planes), what would your favorites (most used/most indispensable) be? Good sources for these tools would also be greatly appreciated.

Slainte,

dave boling

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-14-2007, 10:59 AM
Planes: 61 and a half A and a 5 thats the low angle block and the small jack

Chisels - inch, three-quarter, half - all vital - the debate is on the next one....

Bob Smalser
06-14-2007, 11:07 AM
As a beginner at wooden boat building, approaching the craft without a trust fund, and since the FAQ link to the chisel survey is dead....

Here's the same article from another source: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=smalser&file=articles_472.shtml

Doing restoration work or a new build? A set of bench chisels is usually the first purchase, but repair work around hardware calls for a few short butt chisels you don't mind dinging up. Of the new makes I got to sample courtesy of magazine editors, I thought the Ashley Iles were the best value....much better than the German brands for a similar tho slightly higher price. Joel Moskowitz sells them here: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/

As for planes, I'd look for a Stanley #60 1/2 block plane, a Stanley #3 smoother and a Stanley #5 jack on Ebay. 20-40 bucks. And the plane rehab articles in the FAQ do work. The block plane fits and trims, the narrow smoother is for tasks too heavy for the block plane, and the jack is long enough to plane nice, straight edges for thwarts, oars and the like. After the block/bench planes, you can use your chisels bevel-down in any corners until you spring for a rabbet plane like the Stanley #78.

The irons on used planes are usually in poor shape. If you have sharpening skills and can flatten the iron backs, then these planes will work fine on softwoods and the softer hardwoods like mahogany. If you don't have sharpening skills yet or will do a lot of work in flint-hard woods, then Hock replacement irons arrive dead flat, sharp, and are of better quality than the stock irons. http://www.hocktools.com/ And once you master sharpening skills and can make new handles, the remainder of your chisels can be had inexpensively on Ebay if you research and take the time to shop carefully.

http://i15.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/a4/7a/2065_1.JPG

If you can rehab their backs and edges, here's a sleeper set of 1960-vintage Greenlees that will go cheap because of the plastic handles:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Greenlee-wood-chisels-5-pc-1-1-4-1-3-4-ect_W0QQitemZ190122161610QQihZ009QQcategoryZ13871Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

These Stanley #60's won't be cheap, but will be an excellent value if they go for around a hundred bucks:

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/goodoldstuff1952/MVC-615S_001.JPG

http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanley-No-60-Wood-Chisel-Set-9-Piece-to-2_W0QQitemZ230142586893QQihZ013QQcategoryZ13871QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The soles on old planes are often worn down the center where they edgejointed narrow boards. It's important yet easy to flatten them. Degrease the sole, apply cold blue from a sporting goods store, apply a sheet of wet-or-dry paper lightly lubed with WD-40 to a flat indexing surface like a machine tool table, and simply rub the sole on it until all the blue disappears. Grits required depend on how much needs to come off. I generally make a test stroke using 120 grit then use use 60-150 grits in sequence whn I discover how big the job will be. Use the cold blue to test the flatness of your plane iron back the same way. No other method does as good a job.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3955069/48844565.jpg

Here you see a # 4 1/2 sole nearly completed with just a little blue still showing at the center of toe and heel, wear remaining from jointing thin boards.

pcford
06-14-2007, 01:04 PM
After having rehabbed old planes, I can say that spending $135 on a Lie-Nielsen block plane is a decision you will regret only when you are pulling out your wallet. I don't know of anyone that knows both who prefers the Stanley. New Stanley block planes are trash. Old ones are serviceable but cannot compare.

Yeadon
06-14-2007, 02:01 PM
For me, my best purchase was my first ... a Stanley low angle block plane. I think it was under $40 at Hardwicks in Seattle. (Make Hardwicks your next vacation destination. Skip Tahiti.) Perhaps the current Stanley products are "trash," but that's relative, as my versatile little low angle sure has solved a million problems for me.

Incidentally, if anybody wishes to send me a $135 Lie-Nelson low angle block plane I would happily test it out for the next 35 years. I will report my findings in June 2042.

I've found that garage sales, swap meets, craigslist, etc, were the best way to cheaply augment my necessary tools. (And read all the Bob Smalser tool rehab articles. Brilliant stuff.)

One other thing, the FAQ link to Wood Chisel Survey for Beginners (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=19010) does come up as invalid. Bummer, as I'd love to read it, too.

Bob Smalser
06-14-2007, 02:09 PM
One other thing, the FAQ link to Wood Chisel Survey for Beginners (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=19010) does come up as invalid.

Scroll down to the middle of the page to my FAQ submission. I fixed it there and Jim can fix the main menu later.

In addition, here are 3 companion articles on chisels I did for FWW, although you might have to pay them 5 bucks for access:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=24995

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=27578

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=27740

Paul Pless
06-14-2007, 02:11 PM
One other thing, the FAQ link to Wood Chisel Survey for Beginners (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=19010) does come up as invalid. Bummer, as I'd love to read it, too.

its right here: Here's the same article from another source: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/r...cles_472.shtml (http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=smalser&file=articles_472.shtml)

Yeadon
06-14-2007, 02:57 PM
Thanks for the links.

This stuff ought to be in a book, though a WoodenBoat wiki portal would work great, too.

Sorry to hijack this thread. We should now return to our regularly scheduled discussion of tools ...

John Meachen
06-14-2007, 07:16 PM
Two planes,Stanley No4 and old 9 1/2.Four chisels:1",1/4",1 1/2" paring and 3/4" cranked.Next purchase ought to be Stanley No 90 bullnose rebate plane.

carioca1232001
06-14-2007, 07:36 PM
.........

This stuff ought to be in a book, though a WoodenBoat wiki portal would work great, too.



Glad that there is more than one person who feels like that.

Would be a most unusual book and I am willing to bet, sell like hot cakes.

pcford
06-14-2007, 07:54 PM
Incidentally, if anybody wishes to send me a $135 Lie-Nelson low angle block plane I would happily test it out for the next 35 years. I will report my findings in June 2042.


It's strange why people resist getting a superior tool which is going to be used every day many times. How much is the yearly amortization over the 35 years that you mention? A little bit less than $4 a year.

But it's your choice.

Hughman
06-14-2007, 10:05 PM
Dave, Welcome to the forum....piper, eh? Vince Brennan will be a kindred spirit.

This tool thread is somewhat perennial, there's a long one in B&R that gets resurrected annually. Maybe someone will remember what it's called and link it, twas a classic! ;)

There's lots of good advice here, but it needs boiling occasionally! :)

FSS172
06-14-2007, 10:27 PM
....Next purchase ought to be Stanley No 90 bullnose rebate plane.

Boy, I second that... wonderful little tool.

StevenBauer
06-14-2007, 11:37 PM
I suggest looking closely at the Lee Valley line of planes. The Lie-Nielsen planes are beautiful, but are really just replicas of 19th century technology. Lee Valley has re-engineered their designs and actually improved on the older technology. The way the blades are mounted and adjusted makes them easier to set and use. And they are beautifully made and cheaper than the Lie-Nielsens. I use my little Lee Valley apron plane every day and wouldn't trade it for anything.

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/planes/05p2701s5.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/planes/05p2701d1c.gif

Steven

pcford
06-14-2007, 11:44 PM
I suggest looking closely at the Lee Valley line of planes. The Lie-Nielsen planes are beautiful, but are really just replicas of 19th century technology.

Nonsense. At least the Lie-Nielsen block (and rabbet block) plane's soles and irons are about 50% thicker than their 19th century antecedants. And the adjustment mechanisms are quite different. They are actually a re-engineered tool compared to old tools.

They are beautiful, I agree there.

StevenBauer
06-15-2007, 12:02 AM
I don't think so Pat. Here's a Lie-Nielsen:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/5_lg.jpg

That mechanism is the same as the original Stanley-Bailey. Well executed, yes.

The Lee Valley mechanism is very different:

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/planes/05p2302s2b.jpg

Over the past half-century, plane manufacturers have tended to focus their design efforts on reducing manufacturing costs, as opposed to making planes that work better. When designing our planes, we chose to focus on better adjustment and feed mechanisms, blades that hold a finer edge, and innovative structural improvement to eliminate blade vibration.
Like all our Veritas bench planes, the #4 smooth plane incorporates a unique frog that extends all the way to the sole of the plane to eliminate blade chatter and to allow the user to quickly adjust the mouth as required. It can be closed to a narrow slit for fine shavings with minimum tear-out, or opened for heavier cuts. All of this is done without having to remove the lever cap or anything else from the plane; simply loosen a pair of screws and dial the desired opening with a thumb wheel.

pcford
06-15-2007, 12:49 AM
I don't think so Pat. Here's a Lie-Nielsen:



If you note my post you will see that I was speaking to the block and block/rabbet planes. These are the only Lee-Nielsen planes that I have any direct experience with. And as I said, the sole and iron are markedly different from their Stanley counterparts. I would assume that this difference maintains across the line.

The above L-N also has an adjustment mechanism different from the Stanley planes.

Is the L-N a copy of Stanley? Definitely not. Is the L-N different from the Lee Valley? Yes. Is the Lee Valley better? Dunno. Never used one.

I suspect that we could agree that both are likely better than Stanleys. Everyone has used them.

Bruce Hooke
06-15-2007, 12:50 PM
On Lie-Nielsen it seems to me there are a couple of key questions to ask:

1. Are you doing the kind of work where a precision hand plane is even relevant? For some types of work it really isn't.

2. How often are you using the tool? Clearly someone who does woodworking every day has much more time to amortize the tool across than someone who can only get into their shop on occasional weekends and evenings. Pcford's comment about "tool which is going to be used every day many times" appears to come from the perspective of a professional. I bet there are many amateurs who do nice work who can go a month or more without picking up, say, their block plane.

3. How do you value your time? This applies to both professionals and amateurs but in different ways. For the professional where time spent rehabbing an old tool is time that could also be spent doing billable work it is obviously not hard to justify spending a good bit more to save time. For the amateur it depends on how much you like rehabbing old tools versus making progress on projects, and how much money you can afford to spend to avoid spending time rehabbing old tools, if you would rather not spend you time that way.

It is clear that good work can be made with old, rehabbed tools and with new top-quality tools (and with new, mid-grade tools if you put some work into them), so I don't see the point in trying to argue that any one choice is the only right choice.

pcford
06-15-2007, 01:18 PM
On Lie-Nielsen it seems to me there are a couple of key questions to ask:

1. Are you doing the kind of work where a precision hand plane is even relevant? For some types of work it really isn't.

2. How often are you using the tool? Clearly someone who does woodworking every day has much more time to amortize the tool across than someone who can only get into their shop on occasional weekends and evenings. Pcford's comment about "tool which is going to be used every day many times" appears to come from the perspective of a professional. I bet there are many amateurs who do nice work who can go a month or more without picking up, say, their block plane.

3. How do you value your time? This applies to both professionals and amateurs but in different ways. For the professional where time spent rehabbing an old tool is time that could also be spent doing billable work it is obviously not hard to justify spending a good bit more to save time. For the amateur it depends on how much you like rehabbing old tools versus making progress on projects, and how much money you can afford to spend to avoid spending time rehabbing old tools, if you would rather not spend you time that way.

It is clear that good work can be made with old, rehabbed tools and with new top-quality tools (and with new, mid-grade tools if you put some work into them), so I don't see the point in trying to argue that any one choice is the only right choice.

Regarding #1: Ever look at oars at a place like West Marine? They will work but they work better clubbing salmon. It is more pleasant to use good tools.

Regarding #2: For an amateur as well, it is more pleasant to use good tools.

Regarding #3: Rehabbing or "fettling" as a few souls preciously call it, does not take a huge amount of time. It is a fine way to spend time. It's rewarding to take a garage sale block plane and bring it back to its original condition. But it is still a Stanley block plane.

Traditional boatbuilding is a luxury; nobody needs a traditional boat. It costs a chunk of money. It is strange to me that a person will not think twice about spending $135 on materials or power tools but will blanch at spending that amount on a tool which makes woodworking more pleasant every time you use it.

Is it necessary? No way. You can row with a West Marine oar too. It is a lot of money, but you won't regret it.

By the way, Lie-Nielsen is not the only alternative. There are Lee Valley planes as well as Bridge City, but I have not used either. A boatwright friend uses Bridge City and likes them. Some prefer Japanese planes. A cabinetmaker friend of mine took me over to his shop to give me Japanese plane tutorial...very nice tools.

It is your choice. But I am bemused by those that get so freaked out by the price.....but I confess I was once in that camp.

Alixander Beck
06-15-2007, 02:08 PM
I would go with these as they were my first and are still the most currently used.

Stanley No.9 1/2
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-STANLEY-WOOD-PLANE-NO-9-1-2-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ320126618470QQihZ011QQcategoryZ13 874QQcmdZViewItem

Stanley No.4 or 5 (preferable 5)
http://www.oldtools.com/Stanley%20Tools.html

a Spokeshave
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=49142&cat=1,50230&ap=1

Chisels would be this set.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=49989&cat=1,41504,43500&ap=1

beyond those would be some speciality planes like a rebate or bull nose.

bull nose
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=49709&cat=1,41182,48945

rebate
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32697&cat=1,41182

I prefer the vintage planes like the old Stanleys. I have never used a new Lee Valley one but have heard good things.

You'll need these too...

water stones
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33024&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33019&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1

honing guide
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33003&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1

sandingblock
06-15-2007, 04:54 PM
I'll second going for a LN block plane. I've an assortment of Stanley and Record bench planes that do the job, but a block plane lives in your hand frequently. I was a bit apprehensive about the price when I brought mine, but it was a revelation.

Hughman
06-15-2007, 09:27 PM
You'll need these too...

water stones
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33024&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33019&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1

honing guide
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33003&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1


Oh, Sharpening! Lord have mercy, how long do you want this thread to go?? How many woodworkers can dance on the head of a copper rivit??
:D :D

Nicholas Carey
06-16-2007, 10:49 AM
By the way, Lie-Nielsen is not the only alternative. There are Lee Valley planes as well as Bridge City, but I have not used either. A boatwright friend uses Bridge City and likes them. Some prefer Japanese planes. A cabinetmaker friend of mine took me over to his shop to give me Japanese plane tutorial...very nice tools.

It is your choice. But I am bemused by those that get so freaked out by the price.....but I confess I was once in that camp.I love my Lie-Nielsen low-angle block plane. It's a great tool. But I've got a Veritas (Lee Valley) 5-1/2, shoulder and block planes, and they are, I think 90% of a L-N at significantly lower prices.

Bruce Hooke
06-16-2007, 04:28 PM
My concern with things like Lie-Nielsen tools is that the same argument that is being made about the block plane can also be made about many other tools. Pretty soon, it is not just a few tens of dollars more that we are talking about, but hundreds and hundreds of dollars more. I'd hate for someone to feel like they can't get started with woodworking and boatbuilding just because they don't have the money to buy the dream tool kit that most of us only acquire after years of doing woodworking and that may in fact be best acquired once you've been at it for long enough to know which tools you use most and would most appreciate if you spent the money for really nice stuff.

It is also worth remembering that a $100 tool can seem cheap to one person and very expensive to another person based on their income level.

merlinron
06-16-2007, 09:05 PM
not much to add, it's all been said pretty well.


stanley 60-1/2 is a definate must have and a hock iron for it is a must as well. i find that i grab for my 60-1/2 way more than anything else.

learn the finer points on sharpening plane irons well and tune the sole as bob says. it will do way more work than you would ever imagine!

Pericles
06-17-2007, 06:04 AM
It is curious that for some people, their background does not consist, in part, of standing next to one's father from the age of five and handing him the tools he requests as he works at his woodworking bench. That's what happened to my younger brother and me. Our paternal grandfather was a cabinet maker with premises in Hammersmith, West London. I inherited one or two pieces, one of which is an oval, gate legged, drop leaf table, constructed in English oak that originated from East Anglian church doors. I am using this table as my PC workstation. My father gave it to me years ago and related that his father would buy the doors for Ģ6 per ton! This was 1902 and the carriers would deliver using a steam lorry from Suffolk taking around 4 days for the round trip of 200 miles or so.

The table was originally finished in a thick, black polish, which hid a number of cabinet makers' tricks. About 25 years ago, I stripped off this tired polish to reveal the natural colour. The top consists of three 3/4 inch thick planks around 11 inches wide. The centre plank had had a large iron nail in it, so to repair this blemish a block of oak roughly 2 & 1/2 " by 1 & 1/2 " was worked by chisel and inset into the plank as a repair. The drop leaves were also extended by 3 " per side to create the oval shape and it was to disguise the different shades that the finish was black! However, my brother and I shared those chisels and we use them even now, although they are now much shorter.

We learned to use and take care of these tools by a process of osmosis. That is, by seeing and doing, with shouted exhortations whenever we went wrong. Our father was not a cabinet maker, but a pharmaceutical chemist, nevertheless he had learned from his father and so, we would from him.

Thus, my surprise that others on the forum need to ask about hand tools, is tempered somewhat by the realisation that we were in some ways, quite privileged to be instructed as to the use of such tools and that like it or not, my three sons are going to be boat builders, come hell or high water.:D (I have the plans. http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/LB26_study.htm?prod=LB26)

I would not, for one moment, suggest that my paternal grandfather was anyone but a person of strict morals, but, he did have rather a large stock of mature English oak and there was, even then, a unsatisfied demand for classic Rococco furniture e.g Thomas Chippendale 1745-65. A single chair would be carefully taken apart, say 16 or 18 pieces. Then each piece was faithfully replicated 15 or 17 times in wood of the same species and age. One original component was combined with others to create a set of perfect chairs, sold with the proviso that they were "heavily restored".

I dare say there are houses in East Anglia, whose proud owners boast about the quality of the genuine furniture with which their dining rooms are endowed. Yep, genuine Debells all right! I should add that I do enjoy watching Norm Abram on New Yankee Workshop. I suspect Grandfather would have loved to have got his hands on some of the equipment available now. No chair would have remained uncloned.:D:D:D:D



Pericles

carioca1232001
06-17-2007, 02:12 PM
It is curious that for some people, their background does not consist, in part, of standing next to one's father from the age of five and handing him the tools he requests as he works at his woodworking bench. That's what happened to my younger brother and me. Our paternal grandfather was a cabinet maker with premises in Hammersmith, West London. .................................................. .................................................. ................However, my brother and I shared those chisels and we use them even now, although they are now much shorter.We learned to use and take care of these tools by a process of osmosis. That is, by seeing and doing, with shouted exhortations whenever we went wrong. Our father was not a cabinet maker, but a pharmaceutical chemist, nevertheless he While had learned from his father and so, we would from him.

Thus, my surprise that others on the forum need to ask about hand tools, is tempered somewhat by the realisation that we were in some ways, quite privileged to be instructed as to the use of such tools......

Pericles

Some people may have had the opportunity to stand-by and observe their father take a patientīs blood pressure, pulse rate or conduct a pulmonary/abdominal sounding via a stethescope ....

While others may have accompanied their fathers boarding the wings of an airplane to verify snug closure of fuel-tank caps prior to take-off....

So why should someone with a family history of wood-working craftsman think it unusual that others may be lacking in the basics of wood-working tools ? ;)

It is time for someone to come forward, be it on this Forum or on another, and make a concerted effort to impart such knowledge, a task which has been facilitated greatly with modern information technology (the current manner of 'seeing and doing').

To verify that this is perfectly feasible, one need look no further than to web sites that teach the layperson 'basic electronics', transistors, diodes and the works.:)

Andrew Grant
06-17-2007, 02:20 PM
I went with Stanley. Yes, they aren't top the line. But I am very happy with them. I didn't want to go too hog wild with everything at first. I think they are very adequate for me right now as a beginner. Now I need some chisels. And a bandsaw. Probably a bigger tablesaw and router table. A drill press would be nice. I'll need more clamps. I need a five year plan.

Bruce Hooke
06-17-2007, 02:48 PM
While my favorite chisel right now is a Japanese chisel, for many years I did quite well with some Marples Blue Chip chisels largely purchased from Woodcraft, which still sells them for the relatively modest price of $10-$12 each. The one thing I will say is that these chisels are designed for fine work such as cutting dovetails and other fine joints. If you need chisels you can really pound on you'd be better off with heavier-duty chisels.

On the other side of the coin, it is worth noting that it is relatively rare that you need a chisel of a particular width. So, rather than spend money on a big set you might well be better off spending more money on say, a couple of nice chisels: a 1/2" wide one and a 1" wide one and then add more as the need arises.

Paul Girouard
06-17-2007, 02:58 PM
I went with Stanley. Yes, they aren't top the line. But I am very happy with them. I didn't want to go too hog wild with everything at first. I think they are very adequate for me right now as a beginner. Now I need some chisels. And a bandsaw. Probably a bigger tablesaw and router table. A drill press would be nice. I'll need more clamps. I need a five year plan.

Good deal, chisel's get long one's , Go HOG wild man , there's only so much time :D

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/2.jpg

And a crankneck for sure ,very handy ,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/1.jpg

When you get your lathe you can do a custom Teak handle eh:)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/feb51.jpg




http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/routers.jpg

Don't ferget routers abd bits either :D

And other planes , http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/planes.jpg

Nicholas Carey
06-17-2007, 04:06 PM
found this up in your neck of the woods (Clinton/Useless Bay) -- "100 Year Farm Estate Sale". After all, he who dies with the most toys^w tools wins, right :D

http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/grd/354039852.html

Date: 2007-06-17, 9:15AM PDT

JUNE 23, 24 Huge Farm ESTATE sale includes much farm and garden equipment/tools...Sale is Saturday June 23 10-4 and Sunday June 24 10-3. Treasures and Bargains.

100 year collection from this farm property. The family always wanted to have a sale, but were too busy farming!...Address is 2691 E Gabelein Rd. CLINTON.

Antique and usable farm and garden equipment and tools.(Sale also in house-see Estate sale ad for details)

The Huge shop is packed with antiques/collectibles. Thousands of tools/hardware-modern and antique, farm/garden/outdoor equipment and supplies. Antique and usable harnesses, collars/hanes, Horseshoeing and veterinary supplies, livestock supplies, automotive parts and supplies/chains, ropes. Drawers and buckets full of hardware-lots of new/industrial size nuts/bolts, etc. Building supplies. Antique Cream separators/milking machines, Scales-fish, hardware, vegetable/store, hay bale, platform. Knives and pocket knives. Haying and logging equipment. Power tools, chainsaws. Every type of hand garden tool-old and new. Canning supplies and jars, milk bottles, corn planter, milk cans.Looks to be the sort of sale where one might find some good worker (or maybe collector) tools.

Paul Girouard
06-17-2007, 04:25 PM
found this up in your neck of the woods (Clinton/Useless Bay) -- "100 Year Farm Estate Sale". After all, he who dies with the most toys^w tools wins, right :D




http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/grd/354039852.html
Date: 2007-06-17, 9:15AM PDT
JUNE 23, 24 Huge Farm ESTATE sale includes much farm and garden equipment/tools...Sale is Saturday June 23 10-4 and Sunday June 24 10-3. Treasures and Bargains.
100 year collection from this farm property. The family always wanted to have a sale, but were too busy farming!...Address is 2691 E Gabelein Rd. CLINTON.
Antique and usable farm and garden equipment and tools.(Sale also in house-see Estate sale ad for details)
The Huge shop is packed with antiques/collectibles. Thousands of tools/hardware-modern and antique, farm/garden/outdoor equipment and supplies. Antique and usable harnesses, collars/hanes, Horseshoeing and veterinary supplies, livestock supplies, automotive parts and supplies/chains, ropes. Drawers and buckets full of hardware-lots of new/industrial size nuts/bolts, etc. Building supplies. Antique Cream separators/milking machines, Scales-fish, hardware, vegetable/store, hay bale, platform. Knives and pocket knives. Haying and logging equipment. Power tools, chainsaws. Every type of hand garden tool-old and new. Canning supplies and jars, milk bottles, corn planter, milk cans.Looks to be the sort of sale where one might find some good worker (or maybe collector) tools.


Thanks Nicholas , I'll be there in Freeland anyway that Sat.

Hey don't tell Kermit or Smalser, OK,;) they'd come as well with globs of Franklin's ($100.00 dollar bills eh;) )

Sweet:cool:

Lew you stay home as well , you got the sweet deal on that lil skiff :rolleyes: :D

Or maybe a EBS after on WHIDBEY:eek: :eek: That might be cool as well .

George Roberts
06-17-2007, 04:56 PM
"How much is the yearly amortization over the 35 years that you mention?"

On $135 it is not $4, but about $13/year (10% is the expected return on investments) or $26/year (20% is the expected return on business capital).

Having compared $40 planes with $500 planes I have come to the conclusion that that their are $40 planes every bit as good as $500 planes.

---

For boat work I would have:

a plane that can take off .010" in a pass.

Chisels that fit the size of work. 1/2" is about all I ever use. (I suspect on 50" boats I would want much larger chisels.)

pipefitter
06-17-2007, 05:51 PM
I have to agree with the good Japanese tools. That was the best day of my woodworking career concerning hand tools when I discovered those. I know the topic was planes and chisels but by all means,get a good ryoba saw(NOT the plastic handled home center one) . You will be surprised how many times you wont have to stretch a cord to cut some of the finer parts. I would love to replace all my chisels and such with the hand forged Japanese versions.

Pericles
06-18-2007, 07:01 AM
Cariocca,

You are right. As this is a Wooden Boat forum, I just took it as a given that the members would know about hand tools. I was only surprised, nothing more. I do take your point about "basic electronics", it is just that the men I know of my generation, all saw wood and hammer nails and experience has shown us we should buy the best tools we can afford.

My brother went the whole hog and had woodworking machinery overflowing from his shed, so he built another shed, then he rebuilt the house over five years, then sold the house for an indecently large sum of money (his words).

Now he grows grapes for fun and has come to realise that producing 1200 bottles of wine per year is more than WE can all drink and now he's building a cellar! It goes to show what dire consequences there are, if a person picks up wood butchery skills.:D:D:D:D:D

For me, instead of wine, it's a crazy plan to build boats for a living. Yes, the seeing and doing over the net has much to recommend it, not the least being safe from the hurled mallet bouncing off the back of my head. :D:D:D I think the words were. "Better be better as worse is a curse!". I think that is why I went into management as I developed eyes in the back of my head!

Pericles

daveboling
06-18-2007, 10:15 AM
Cariocca,

You are right. As this is a Wooden Boat forum, I just took it as a given that the members would know about hand tools. I was only surprised, nothing more. I do take your point about "basic electronics", it is just that the men I know of my generation, all saw wood and hammer nails and experience has shown us we should buy the best tools we can afford.

Pericles
As the one who started us down this road, I need to expand a bit on my interest in suggested tools. I am familiar with, and have average skills with carpentry and cabinet making tools. I am also a journeyman machinist, welder, and an electrical engineer. I don't intend this in any way as a boast. The greatest lesson that learning in these areas has taught me is that knowledge in a related field doesn't necessarily lend itself in the task at hand. I am currently finishing the drones for a set of uilleann bagpipes, which I would offer as high-precision woodworking considering that the tolerances I am working to are +/- 0.001". But the tools required to fair a hull, shape a rabbet, or scarfing planks is a different animal. Use the right tools for the job has been beaten into me by countless mistakes. If you have some hard-earned knowledge that you would like to share with those who weren't lucky enough to have a master carpenter for a father/grandfather, you would enrich us all.

dave boling

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-18-2007, 11:08 AM
Pericles writes:

I would not, for one moment, suggest that my paternal grandfather was anyone but a person of strict morals, but, he did have rather a large stock of mature English oak and there was, even then, a unsatisfied demand for classic Rococco furniture e.g Thomas Chippendale 1745-65. A single chair would be carefully taken apart, say 16 or 18 pieces. Then each piece was faithfully replicated 15 or 17 times in wood of the same species and age. One original component was combined with others to create a set of perfect chairs, sold with the proviso that they were "heavily restored".

I dare say there are houses in East Anglia, whose proud owners boast about the quality of the genuine furniture with which their dining rooms are endowed. Yep, genuine Debells all right! I should add that I do enjoy watching Norm Abram on New Yankee Workshop. I suspect Grandfather would have loved to have got his hands on some of the equipment available now. No chair would have remained uncloned.:D:D:D:D

Time for a disquisition on the history of western cabinetmaking in Hong Kong...

For many years, the Taikoo Dockyard built very fine steel steam and motor ships and it incidentally employed a goodly number of cabinetmakers, who tended to be Scots, who unsurprisingly found the atmosphere of Hong Kong more congenial than that of their native Glasgow.

Chinese cabinetmaking has a very long tradition, of course.

As time went on a significant number of local cabinetmakers acquired the skills of both disciplines, which is why Hong Kong still has a flourishing bespoke cabinet making business.

Hong Kong also has a flourishing trade in Chinese antiques, the more so since Hong Kong is not included in China's export restrictions on antiques.

I think that by now, if you have read Pericles' remarks, you will have got my drift...and will be suitably cautious around the Hollywood Road antiques quarter.

I know of at least one imposing house in Hong Kong, normally occupied by the senior representative of a large and famous company, which of course owns the house and the furniture, where the furniture has been cloned and replaced in its entirety by retiring Chairmen at least twice since 1945. :D :D :D :D

carioca1232001
06-19-2007, 08:21 AM
Pericles,
Donīt wish to high-jack davebolingīs thread but the steam-lorry (1902) that carted wood down to your grandfatherīs premises over a span of four days ;) ;) caught my attention.

Were there paved roads then, as we know them today, asphalt over gravel ? How quick was Britain to make the change to petrol-driven cargo vehicles ? Had steam-powered lorries left the scene in British cities and/or the countryside by the start of WW I ?

Nicholas Carey
06-19-2007, 01:53 PM
Pericles,
Donīt wish to high-jack davebolingīs thread but the steam-lorry (1902) that carted wood down to your grandfatherīs premises over a span of four days ;) ;) caught my attention.

Were there paved roads then, as we know them today, asphalt over gravel ? How quick was Britain to make the change to petrol-driven cargo vehicles ? Had steam-powered lorries left the scene in British cities and/or the countryside by the start of WW I ?Here's a Sentinel S6 steam lorry in Vermont in 2004, one of just 2 built with left-hand drive:

http://trainsferriesbuses.co.uk/11-4-04_sentinel-003.jpg

A little googling finds a reminisence (http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/1_edin/1_edinburgh_history_-_recollections_granton_trinity_wardie_district_194 0s.htm):
Thank you to Douglas Beath for the recollections of commercial transport in Edinburgh in the 1940s:

Steam Lorries'

About 1947 was my last sight of a steam lorry, hissing and spitting its chain-driven way up Leith Street. Flour mills had been big users, and I believe were the last.Lots more at http://www.sentinel-waggons.co.uk/index2a.htm

There you go.

Pericles
06-21-2007, 04:39 AM
Carioca,

Good questions, In East Anglia the majority of roads in the early 20th century would have been dusty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macadamized

Later, the road surface was sprayed with tar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_macadam

It was the end of WWI that saw hundreds and hundreds of surplus petrol trucks hit the roads. They were purchased by their former drivers who set up in competition with railway companies in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_engine

Regards,

Pericles

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-21-2007, 04:53 AM
"The Thirty Nine Steps" was written just before the outbreak of the Great War - and includes a scene with a road-mender and his gravel...

I have photographs of scotland as late an 1935 with macadam (non-tar) roads.

ishmael
06-21-2007, 06:35 AM
Hm. I haven't read the entire thread, but to the original question. Limited to two planes and four chisels: a number five in the Stanley lexicon. Medium sized bed, it can serve as a lot of different purposes, from a bit of scrubbing to a bit of jointing, and a block plane. If you could stretch that number a bit a flat spoke shave is very useful at times.

Chisels. My most reached for is an inch. If I had to choose, for boat work, an inch and a quarter inch...save the money on the other two and buy a spokeshave. We are talking a limited kit here, yes?