Cotton or 5200?

[wjsand]

I will be reseaming this winter or spring. What are the pros & cons of
cotton vs. 5200 for caulking? Some say that if the wood is dried out
properly, 5200 is no problem and the way to go. Equally
knowledgeable people say that if 5200 isn't applied properly, water
pressure while under way could work loose a portion and the entire
seam will come out putting your boat in danger of sinking. What say
you?

Hull is 5/4" mahogany over oak frames

[Ed Harrow]

5200 is cursed miserable stuff (IMHO of course). Using it instead of cotton in the boat's seams will result in the boat's hull developing a resemblance to a Flexible Flyer (also IMHO).

Cotton stuffed into the seams helps tighten things up (assuming, of course, the boat is not strip planked or tight seamed or whatever other ways boats are built to not require cotton caulking).

[Scott Rosen]

Caulking hull seams with 5200 is a bad idea. I don't think 3M recommends it for that purpose. For underwater seams, there are two schools of thought. One says use an oil-based traditional seam compound. The other says use a polysulfide. In any case, the goo is not a substitute for the cotton, which is the actual "caulking" part. The goo or putty is the compound that is used to fill the seams and make them fair with the planks. The water is kept out by the compression of the seams against eachother or against the cotton caulking. If you have to rely on the goo to keep the water out of your boat, your are in trouble.

[Bob Adams]

STOP!!! Don't even think about using 5200!It is an adhesive, not a sealant. It will cause the planks to buckle and detach themselfs from the frames.Whatever you put in there has to be pliable and have the ablity to be displaced by the expanding plank. I have seen the aftermath, not pretty!

[Bayboat]

All of the advice above is right. Also, it is very difficult to get 5200 to adhere to the sides of the seams in old work. You have to scrape the sides of the seams down to bare wood, which often widens them too much. Caulk with cotton, re-setting the old cotton where necessary, then pay the seams with an oil-based compound like International Paints seam compound or equivalent.
There are two kinds, one for below the waterline (brown) and one for above (white).

[Allen Foote]

Let me restate what was said by Scott & Adam. You will ruin the integrity of your hull if you use 5200 as a caulking. That 47' Pace is a niiiice boat. :D Why are you planning on reseaming? Are you taking on water now? or has she been out on land for awhile?

[ 09-07-2002, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[Gary E]

Warren,

<<<What are the pros & cons of
cotton vs. 5200 for caulking?>>>

Well I have no idea why there seems to be such intense hate for 3M's 5200 by so many of the people who post here, but I LOVE it.

I caulked ALL underwater seams of my 33 Ft 1959 Pacemaker and after that the only place that ever let water in were the shaft logs.

Now as for proper application?...Install the cotton first where it's missing and just fill up the seam and run your finger or an old sneaker over it to smooth it down to make sure it's below the surface of the planks...Now, you said nothing about how dried out your boat is or will be, I kept my boat in the water all year in New Jersey and only pulled it after 2 or 3 yrs to paint, so when I did this it was only out of the water 4 or 5 days, not a long time for the hull to dry out.

As for water pressure while underway.... the pressure is from the water, pushs the stuff into the seam, not out of the seam..that goes for what ever you putty it with...

I wonder why so many here are so aginst such a wonderfull product. Do they have a interest in 3M's stock going down?...or perhaps they have interest is some other company and want it's stock to go up...BoatLife maybe? ..or maybe they just do not know. I have used it, and recomend it, and will use it again, till I find something better...

Ohh....maybe this matters, but I doubt it...
My boat was built of Jersey Cedar, not Mahogany...

Disclamer...No position one way or the other in MMM ....good company but it's stock price is to expensive for me..

Good luck with what ever you use,

G

[Scott Rosen]

Gary, you haven't tried to recaulk yet, have you? I don't envy you when you have to replace or repair a plank or some caulking. 5200 is a permanent adhesive, and a damn good one at that. I use it for permanent instalations, like the daggerboard trunk and keel on my pram. No caulk or goo is good for all applications. Polysulfide is the high-tech seam compound of choice.

[Donn]

I agree with Scott. I asked the guy who is just finishing work on my boat why he didn't use 5200 over the cotton, and he held up his reefing tool, a used Craftsman hacksaw blade with a hook ground into one end, and electricians tape where he held it, and said "because this won't remove it, and if I try to remove it , it pulls wood out of the planks."

So far, I've used more 5200 in the house and the yard, than on the boats.

[On Vacation]

STOP!STOP!STOP! No matter who has used it to fill the seams of a wooden boat, it is 99 and 99-100 percent screw up. I don't care who did, what it did, and how it worked, if it did you should go to Vegas tonight. STOP!STOP!STOP!

[Quk&DrtyPete]

Gary does make a good point with his Pacemaker. Around the Great Lakes Pacemakers and Egg Harbors got lots of bad raps because they dried out way too much because they were hauled out for 6 months every year. Leaked like crazy for days and weeks every spring. Boat yards hated them. Those that were bubbled through the winter faired much better. Double plank boats leaked every spring when they were put in the water but nothing like the Paces and Eggs. Previous disussions on this forum on the very light construction techniques used on Paces and Eggs leads me to believe that under the same conditions that Gary discribed ie planks not dried out, I would consider using 5200 just to strenghten the integrity of the hull. Yes I also agree with the anti 5200 group that whomever gets stuck replacin a plank will certainly have a tougher time cutting the planks apart to do the job..........IMHO.......Pete

[On Vacation]

What has happened in the past experience of these hulls is that if the boat is original and has never been rescrewed, when it swells, the planking will pull away from the frames. Then go into rough waters, the naughty word come to mind. It starts with a big "S". If you are lucky enough never to have experienced this,fine. You will never forget it if you do have this chance. Removing it is very easy when the boat is dried out. 5200 will release itself if applied to a damp hull and then dried out.

[Mike Vogdes]

I think you should have to get a perscription for 5200 from a woodenboat doctor..

A couple years ago I watched two guys try and remove a windless off a new boat that was bedded with 5200, after unbolting it they tried everything to break the bond to no avail. Finally they gave a little tug with a forklift and promptly ripped the fiberglass away from the core material. Big time mess...

[Ed Harrow]

Gary, as I read Warren's post, he indicated using 5200 in place of cotton, not over it. Warren, I've had to deal with more 5200 than I ever want to see on my project. As someone pointed out, it doesn't hold well to dirty surfaces. I've seen that, but I've also had incredible, tenacious bonds that wouldn't come apart for nothing...

[Gary E]

Well fellows, as far as 5200 making a strong bond that is not broken without the use of extra effort..yeah..that means it's STUCK TOGETHER...and maybe FOREVER.....neet isnt it. means the seam will NEVER LEAK.

Donn,
What does your guy use?..maybe there is something better, but never having to recalk the boat makes trying something else a rather distant procedure.
By the way, if he had a tool made from a old power hacksaw blade about 18 inches long, with half a roll of DUCK TAPE for a handle, maybe the job could be made easier. How often do you remove planks?..last time I did that was on an old scow on the Ohio River, 1955 or 56 I think..calking was cotton and Kuhls, is that still made?..sticky stuff as I recall.

Mike,
I think I am a wood boat doc, no kolledge edakation navel architect degree, just a mechanical ingineer. Sounds to me like the 5200 did what it was sposed to do for that windlass, and it does show you that guys with a forklift should be limited to moving boxes of freight. Looks like the fiberglass bond to whatever it was sposed to hold onto was the weak link, do not blame a strong link for the falure of less than suitable glass to whatever it was bonded to.

Ed,
Yeah, I cought the "or" in the original question but dismissed it as something we all do. You will note that I said that I used cotton in my boat and the 5200 on top of it. And I really like the "wont come apart for nuthing" it give you peace of mind when you 40 miles off and a storm is comming your way. Maybe you could tell the rest of us what you use?. Certainly someone from Woodville ought to know something about this.

Here is 3M's website...http://www.3m.com/
Put 5200 in the search box and it will take you to what I tried to post but the preview screen would not let me post it because it contains thingies that this site does not like. Rules I guess.

G

[Scott Rosen]

Originally posted by Gary E:
it's STUCK TOGETHER...and maybe FOREVER.....neet isnt it. means the seam will NEVER LEAK. [snip] How often do you remove planks?..last time I did that was on an old scow on the Ohio River, 1955 or 56 I think.."NEVER LEAK."

Hundreds of feet of seams and wood subject to hull stresses. NEVER LEAK is dream that can only be accomplished in the middle of an African desert.

But you may have managed to create a fix that guarantees that the big headaches will belong to the next owner, not you. If you were fixing boats in '55, you must be at least 70 years old. Your seams could outlive you, but the next owner won't be so "lucky."

[Mike Vogdes]

Gary,
I don't blame anything for the bond failure, nor would a forklift be my first choice to remove a windlass, I merely tried to point out that 5200 can create a vicious bond.
I too, think its the best adhesive caulk known to man, however in the hand of the inexperienced or uninformed it is a disaster waiting to happen.

I keep my fingers crossed that my wife never discovers 3-M 5200, she can "fix" anything with a claw hammer and a screwdriver, if she added 5200 to her arsenal I would probably be in divorce court. LOL

If it works for you slopin it on with an old sneaker then have at it, more power to ya, but I'm gonna sit on the fence with the polysulfied crew.

[thechemist]

5200 can be cut with piano-wire. Introduce it through to either side of the joint to be cut, grasp with pliers/vise-grips on either side, and pull.

As for using any elastomeric sealant in seams, it all depends on whether the wood will expand after the boat is relaunched. If the wood is damp, near the Fiber-Saturation Point, and the boat not out for long, then when the boat is back in the water it does not swell and plank fasteners are not stressed. If the wood is dry, the seams filled with 5200 or whatever, and some paint is on the outside [and appropriate ventilation inside] such that the wood stays dry, then the wood does not swell and plank fasteners are not stressed.

If the above engineering principles are violated, then one has greater or lesser degree of disaster.

There are ways to do things so they go wrong, and ways to do things so they go right.

Whatever you do, if the result is that nothing went wrong, then that was a right way to do it.

[lumberdude]

At the risk of being booed out of the forum Warren, I used 5200 for the garboard seams on my little cedar strip fishing boat. Everyone said that 5200 gets to hard and acts as a wedge, so far mine is still plyable and doing it's job nicely. I will agree that if I ever have to remove the caulking for whatever reason, it will prove to be difficult, but in my case, I'm pretty sure I won't need to. I used cotton with the 5200 over it.

The info on the forum is fantastic, you just have to take what you learn and add it to your specific needs and ask some local boat builders too. Some of the local guys around here use 5200 all the time, have never heard of CPES, and don't know what kirby paint is. But then again, we aren't sailing/boating in the open ocean with swells over the bow.

It all depends on your specific uses IMHO.

Kory

[Allen Foote]

Mike Vodges....that is EXACTLY what we are trying to do...."inform the inexperienced". As per Eggs & Paces on the great lakes with 6 months drying out, those owners should have bought different boats that fit the conditions in which they are kept. Isn't that the essence of "seaworthy"?!? A vessel thats fit for the duty intended? Egg Harbor New Jersey in on the ATLANTIC OCEAN. They are sea going boats that are not meant, nor designed to be ,nor ever built to be dried out for 6 months of the year. The boat in question is not on the greatlakes nor did he mention drying it out for 6 months of a 12 month year. HELLO.....this is the WOODENBOAT forum. The consenses of formites believe in the prolonging of the usefull lifespan of a WOODENBOAT. 3M 5200 does not extend that lifespan in fact it works to lessen the usefullness by making the vessel "UNREPAIRABLE". The majority of older (and what year did you state the Pace was?) wooden boats have had numerous repairs already. The fact that these boats can be dissasembled and repaired and reassembled prolonges thier life span of usefullness. 3M is a PERMANANT ADHESIVE that makes disassembly IMPOSSIBLE! THATS what 5200 is meant,designed and chemically built to do! OVER the cotton caulking goes paint and then a soft polysulfide. Do NOT leave out the cotton caulk and do NOT think that using 5200 is an easy "cure all" for not knowing how to cotton caulk a hull. There are many here that will "hold your hand" through that procedure.

[ 09-08-2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[Bayboat]

Write 100 times on the blackboard: "3M 5200 is not a caulk." Cotton or oakum is for caulking.
3M 5200 is sometimes used as a seam compound, but it's a bad choice for that use. It will not adhere well to old or damp planking. If it does adhere well to new work, it can never be taken apart again without damage to the wood. But I'm repeating what has already been said. I can only add the voice of much experience with trying to keep boats afloat.

Only use 5200 where you know for certain sure, without any doubt, absolutely, no question, that what you stick with it will never, ever have to be taken apart, by anyone, at any time, for any reason. There isn't anything like that on a wooden boat.

[Dave Hadfield]

My understanding is that the cotton/oakum is a component of the boat's Construction, not just its water-sealing. It wedges the planks together. I think Bud McIntosh wrote that the hull wasn't properly stiff until it had been caulked. It functions more as a spline than a sealant.

I haven't had to do any plank work on Drake, but I don't think I'd use goop in replacement of caulking -- any goop.

[Dale Genther]

Wher in Rock Hall is your boat? I keep my wood sloop, Boreal, in Rock Hall. I might like to stop by, if you don't mind, and have a look at her.

[WWheeler]

Allen Foote:

What type of boats are meant for the Great Lakes ie. extended haulout cycles? This is a serious question, I will be faced this issue soon. I noticed a serious shortage of larger wooden boats around my way. Any advantages of clinker over carvel, types of wood used in construction etc.

[Quk&DrtyPete]

WWheeler, I have had 3 double plank Chris Crafts, 2 plywood lapstrake Lymans, 2 plywood lapstrake Chris Crafts, and1 solid mahogany lapstrake planked Folkboat and had no serious leaking problems during the spring launch. I believe that the traditional carvel single plank construction might give you some problems. If the planking is mahogany so much the better. I have always stored inside during the winters and most of the time on a cement floor. Never in a heated building. Bubbled for 2 winters in a covered boat house with a 1939 37 ft. Chris and that worked out fine. Hope that this helps...............Pete

[Bob Adams]

The Eggs stand the hard OK, I've had mine out for as much as 5 months when doing my ribs and butt blocks. She leaks like hell for a day or two then she's fine. BTW, someone did several seams on my boat with 5200. A sharp scraper blade in the Fien tool will cut it cleanly.

[JMAC]

I'll add my two cents worth. Once cured the 3M product becomes 52 Million. It was mentioned that piano wire will cut through it if you run it across the joint and pull. Might work if by pull you mean to attach the wire to that guy's forklift and PULLL! The stuff ain't cheddar. I've removed deck fittings held down with the power goo and it is careful business. I vote for tradition in planking- cotton and compound.

[Allen Foote]

WWheeler, lapstrake......Plywood lapstrake. ;) Double planked seams have smaller thickness planking, generally tighter seams and fair better BUT they will have problems that lapstrake won't....especially plywood lapstrake. The plywood doesn't expand and contract with moisture as planking does. The veneers are thin, they are opposed to eachother and glued to each other...although some swelling does occur, it is very, very nominal. With the older carvel planked vessel, the seasonal drying, submersion cycle is very hard on the wood. As time goes by the "elasticity" of the wood to return to the original dimensions when swelling LESSENS. :eek: Not only that, but the constant (twice a year) movement of the plank (contracting and swelling) plays hell on fastenings with the tedency of backing them out and/or loosening them, making refastening mandatory earlier. :rolleyes:

[ 09-10-2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[WWheeler]

Plywood lapstrake, yes of course. But I was hoping to own a boat with real wood someday (been listening to Cleek too much).

PS I saw someone completely goop an Al Mason design at the marina this summer with Sikaflex in the seams. There's a couple of products that they produce, so I'm hoping it wasn't a 5200 type compound.

[Wilson Fitt]

Here's what Larry Pardy has to say on page 315 of "Details of Classic Boat Construction: The Hull":

"Do not eliminate the cotton from the seams of any carvel-planked hull...

"When we built Seraffin, the most commonly used seam compound was Kuhl's compound. The British equivilent is Jeffries Marine Glue. This is definately not a glue. After eight years, we found that the compound had lost its resilience and become brittle. Cracks developed on the outside and it was difficult to keep a good coat of paint on the seams. So we redid the seams with 3M 5200 white sealant at the suggestion of an old time yacht finisher who had used this compound for ten years. After watching those seams for the next three years, we decided that we were satisfied, so we used the same compound for Taleisin's seams....

"The adhesive qualities of 5200 may add some strength to the hull as the compound binds together the planks. On the other hand it is almost impossible to get it out of the seams once it has set. The only successful method that we have found is to use an X-acto knife and cut along each edge of the compound then pull it out with a seam raker."

Now, I have always thought that Pardy was at (and sometimes well over) the top when it comes to quality boat building. So I took this advice when building Christina Grant, caulking with cotton and paying with Sika 240 which is roughly the same stuff as 5200. Maybe a mighty sin has been committed, but I can report that it is still flexible, and after nearly 10,000 miles, the boat does not leak. I kinda like the idea of a bit more strength on those dark and stormy nights. I hope that the guy who comes after will forgive me, but I'd do the same again.

[Gary E]

Folks,
I thought that I said all there was for me to say on this 5200 subject, but the more I read the more I thought that this is not about 5200, it's about tradition, you know, the kind of tradition that get's replies to my sugestions such as "cursed miserable stuff" or "STOP!!! Don't even think about using 5200" or "STOP!STOP!STOP!" or "Write 100 times on the blackboard" etc etc etc.....Folks, you got your tradition, and it seems that when a sucessfull method is used by a newcommer (ME) it's not a good idea, never mind that it worked well, and others here have also said it works well for them, can we be the only sucesfull users?....I dont think so.

So in conclusionm, I will sugest that Warren ask around the yard or wonder into the supply store and ask what sells the most, not that what sells the most is the best, but at least you'l be in the company of a lota boaters that all agree.

G

[WWheeler]

Gary:

Lots of things are done, frequently, that are bad ideas. People can make the same mistakes over and over again.

"what sells the most" can be just the result of marketing hype and shared misconceptions. I can think of a thousand examples: personal water craft, fibreglass boats, pet rocks, any car built in Detroit, etc.

[Allen Foote]

No Gary, its not that at all. Look at the Pardy case.....1) what was his budget for building NEW? We are talking new construction with virtually unlimited time & money. 2) look at his materials....hand selcted, again the best $ can buy. TEAK PLANKING! How well does TEAK take oil based paints and fillers? BUT the BIGGEST difference is he is building NEW and will sell the vessel BEFORE IT NEEDS REPAIRING! How would you like to be the one that shelled out twice what his boat is worth because of who built it and then TRY TO REPAIR IT? SURE, if you are building NEW with the plan of dumping it on the market after a few years of publicity, you could careless about repairability and fill your seams with 5200 all day long. THAT is NOT the case for most, if not all of us here. I personally have rebuilt a number of wooden hulls and the 5200 would have made them uneconomical in cost of labor. I would not have touched them, but would recommend thier being cut up and put into a dumpster. And for the engineering arguement....I submit Gary, that it is the fasteners holding the planking to the hull that provides the strength and not the adhesives in the seams that hold the vessel together.

[ 09-12-2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[Ed Harrow]

Look at that, Allen and I are in agreement about something! ;)

I should also point out, but I don't remember his specific words, but Paul Haley, when he surveyed Phoenix noted that 5200 was used in some seams, and that this is not recommended practice. In fact, in most cases, the 5200 in the seams didn't really stick very well. There were a few places where I did have to cut it with a razor knife (around the sterm post), and you know how I handled it around the keel bolts.

At any rate it weren't a case of cotton or 5200.

[Gary E]

Allen,
You said...
"No Gary, its not that at all. Look at the Pardy case.....1) what was his budget for building NEW? We are talking new construction with virtually unlimited time & money."

Allen, where is Pardy mentioned Warren's question?...it NEVER was...where was buget or the word NEW mentioned? If you go back and read the original question you will find the answer is NEVER. Now read where Wilson talked about Pardy and Seraffin, please point out where they found anything wrong with 5200, I read this for example "Maybe a mighty sin has been committed, but I can report that it is still flexible, and after nearly 10,000 miles, the boat does not leak. I kinda like the idea of a bit more strength on those dark and stormy nights. I hope that the guy who comes after will forgive me, but I'd do the same again."

Allen, you said....
"2) look at his materials....hand selcted, again the best $ can buy. TEAK PLANKING! How well does TEAK take oil based paints and fillers?"

Allen, We are not talking about hand selected anything here, the planks are already IN THE BOAT...We are not talking about Teak...check Warren's original post.

Allen you said...
"TEAK PLANKING! How well does TEAK take oil based paints and fillers? BUT the BIGGEST difference is he is building NEW and will sell the vessel BEFORE IT NEEDS REPAIRING!"

Allen, Teak?? paint?? fillers?? sell?? ... none of those words were any part part of the original question or the problem.

Allen you said this...
"How would you like to be the one that shelled out twice what his boat is worth because of who built it and then TRY TO REPAIR IT? SURE, if you are building NEW with the plan of dumping it on the market after a few years of publicity, you could careless about repairability and fill your seams with 5200 all day long."

Allen, are you confussed here?, who is talking about shelling out 2 times what the boat is worth? who said anything about new? I care a lot about cost of materials, I use the BEST I can buy, since it's the smallest part of the total cost, I have always used the best, it's saves labor, you only do the job one time and the job last's a hellofalot longer.

Allen in the end of your post you mention the screws holding the planks...
!!!CONGRATULATIONS !!!
YOUR RIGHT, I agree, but the 5200 is in there to keep the water out and if it adds strength, so be it, a bonus smile.gif

Allen if you want to recomend something else rather than telling me what you think is wrong with what I and several others have shown to work, please do, WHAT DO YOU USE?

I will add one comment, the same year I used 5200 on my boat a friend used it on his, He has to dump several buckets of water into his bilge to check the automatic pump, his hatches drain the rain water overboard, mine let rain leak into the bilge. We were on the same dock and, no not a covered slip.

So....I say again, it's about tradition.

G

[Bob Adams]

No, it has nothing to do with tradition at all. It has to do with the properties of the product. I grant you, you might get away with it on a boat that has not dried out. I know what happens when you fill a seam on a boat that is dry, when the planks swell, something gives and it's NOT the 5200.

[Donn]

I think it does have something to do with tradition. Wood has a tradition of wearing out, swelling and shrinking, and being replaceable. 5200 has a tradition of being intractable. When it does what it is supposed to do, it is wonderful. When it does what it isn't supposed to do, it's a royal pain.

"Donn,
What does your guy use?..maybe there is something better, but never having to recalk the boat makes trying something else a rather distant procedure.
By the way, if he had a tool made from a old power hacksaw blade about 18 inches long, with half a roll of DUCK TAPE for a handle, maybe the job could be made easier. How often do you remove planks?..last time I did that was on an old scow on the Ohio River, 1955 or 56 I think..calking was cotton and Kuhls, is that still made?..sticky stuff as I recall."

My guy uses cotton, followed by his own mix of mud that includes a variety of things...then paint.

BTW, I assume when you wrote "DUCK TAPE" you were referring to duct tape.

Good luck with your Pace. "My guy" loves them, and has several under his care. His opinion is that your's is a goner.

[JMAC]

It may just be possible to mold planks out of 5200 itself and then caulk them with cotton and cedar strip.

[thechemist]

Originally posted by JMAC:
It may just be possible to mold planks out of 5200 itself and then caulk them with cotton and cedar strip.As a matter of fact that can be done, although one should blend the 5200 with about ten to thirty percent aromatic polyisocyanate in order to stiffen it up a bit so that it has more the hardness and stiffness of a natural wood plank.

That material would caulk nicely with cotton and oakum.

I would have mentioned it before but I did not think anyone would take me seriously. :D

[Allen Foote]

GARY E.......repeat after me, m-e-l-l-o-w..hummm now.....m-e-l-l-o-w. There, feel better? I know I do. :D My paragraph was meant to point out the very reasons why Larry Pardey's usage of 5200 did not apply to the Pace in question. AND, Good Lordy, Ed Harrow agreed! :eek: Gary...Please don't try to sell your boat around me....I'd have to tell any prospective buyer the folly of 5200. I use cotton cualking, lead paint, and BoatLife polysulfide. If the planking needs tightening I refasten instead of using 5200. If a seam is too wide I replace the plank instead of using 5200. I buy my 4/4 mahogany for under $4 a board foot (and so can you)....so its pure folly not to do it right. Sorry you've taken such an offense (NO, I won't subject you to what my serveryor said about 5200 in seams....I'll save that for the political/miscellaneous page). :D Traditional methods have allowed traditional boats to survive. PERIOD. If you want fiberglass buy fiberglass. The idea of using a "miracle goop" in your seams will 1) swell your head because you are sooo much smarter than the rest of us. 2)make your boat unrepairable. BOTTOM LINE Gary E. is this....YOU are the one that either has to remove the plank for refastening or pay more $ for someone else to or sell the boat to some one uneducated in the 5200 debacle. Even the best of propperly built wooden boats have a life span...Silicon bronze deteriorates with AGE. tongue.gif Sooner or later those screws will need replacement. ;) When I'm finished with a hull it has 20 to 30 years of foreseeable usage before another major rebuild......and it will be possible to rebuild it....instead of throwing it away. Now repeat after me...."better to rebuild it using traditional methods every 20 years than use 5200 and cut the boat up after 20 years", because thats about the life span of your "forever". I can also imagine the stresses put on your fasteners while the planking reswelled with the cured 5200 in the seams. BUT the main point that you are totally ignoring is this...A propperly built/rebuilt wooden hull does not need the "extra strength" of ANY added seam filler. IF you suspect your hull does in fact need the added strength of 5200 then REFASTEN THE FRIGGEN BOAT!

[ 09-14-2002, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[JMAC]

So Allen, I've got a dried out hull, do you think that Boatlife is preferable to the Interlux seam compound? Mine had a black sealant over the cotton just used below the waterline, and white putty above. The black goo let go from one side or the other on the planks that opened up the most.

[Allen Foote]

Yes, BoatLife is prefferable to Interlux seam compound BUT what is the "black goo"? would it be better to use the same "black goo"? Shoot some Boatlife or "black goo" in the opening where the "black goo" let go. Those planks should reswell and push most of it back out anyway. :D It works like this...1) the cotton acts as a "gasket" where the two planks meet. Because the planks are imperfect surfaces, the cotton fills the voids. Cotton is used because it does NOT swell when wet and thus allows the planking to swell and meet. Over the cotton goes a lead based paint so that the cotton stays in one place (doesn't walk) while the rest of the boat's seams are filled. Then a soft filler (soft so that it squeezes out when the planks swell) goes over the painted cotton. Yes, when a boat hull drys the seams open up and the filler pulls away from one side....refill that opening. Unlike hard fillers that fall out in chunks when dry(and bring the cotton with it), the polysulfides remain attached to 1 side of the seam. In essence, one side of the seam "pulls away" from the filler as the wood shrinks. The BoatLife stays the same size. Sounds like the "black goo" is flexable and is doing the job.

[ 09-14-2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[kialoa]

Allen
I will have my boat out of the water for probably 3-4 yrs during her rebuild,she currently has dried out interlux seam compound below the waterline,actually the seams vary from still supple to dried and flaking.
2 questions
1,if I remove the compound will the polysulfides adhere well or do the seams need some preparation other than priming with oil based paint
2,would you wait,in other words prep and leave the seam compound until close to launch time,apply the seam compound paint her bottom and launch ?
Kialoa is an alden seagoer,45 LOA planked with hard Mahogany on oak
Rich

[A. Mason]

The reference to an Al Mason design above recalls an incident that happened around 20 years ago. Al was on one of habitual forays at a marina and spotted one of his designs hauled out. He walked up and observed the owner doing something to the hull that alarmed Al.

No sooner had Al started to explain that what the fellow was wrong but the man glared at Al and demanded to know "who the h--- do you think you are telling me how to repair my boat!"

Al smiled and told him he was "the sob who designed the boat, and if anyone knew how to properly repair the boat, it was him." The fellow got a bit sheepish and politely asked Al to explain what was being done wrong and how it should be properly done."

The boat survived and is still sailing 20 years later with her 10th owners.

Over the decades there have been many "miracle" substances that over time has proven not to be so fabulous. Whenever I hear raves about some new thing, I always think of the raves about the new wonder construction materials - ferro-cement and fiberglass - that occurred in the early 1970s.

Fellows like Al did their homework, best as they could, and went ahead with designs specific to these new materials. Ferro was a short-lived fad, and glass has had a number of huge changes since then.

Some might call it tradition, but I tend to view it as using stuff that is well-known to work. It has a lengthy track record of doing what it's supposed to do.

For those using 5200 - what will happen if you get a hole or a major crack in a plank? You know, one of those a$*$&#@&#!!! accidents that periodically happen. Sounds like it might be a major hassle to repair.

Wooden boats are living entities that need constant tender loving care. That is a fact of wooden boat ownership. If someone doesn't want or like to spend hours and hours nurturing their "baby," they ought to consider some other activity, like renting a boat.

[Allen Foote]

Kiola, nice boat. I'm 3 years into my 43' Egg Harbor rebuild. I'm caulking and puttying the topside seams when ever I replank. The new planks have 3 coats Z-Spar undercoating. The bottom seams I'm leaving open. This is why, 1)The freeboard seams collect rain water running down the side of the boat when it rains. Thats fresh water in open seams getting behind the planks. It shows as a very slight dicoloration in the undercoating...kind of an orangish color. Planking will rot out on a seam. BUT, The rain water drops off the spray rail and doesn't run down the bottom. 2) The bottom will be caulked last. Starting with the garboard and working up towards the turn of the bilge. If you caulk opposite of this, the garboard closes more as the caulking proceeds towards it (if you caulk the seam on the outside of the second plank first, it will move the 2nd plank down towards the garboard.). I bought the 43 on land, it had been out 1 1/2 years. The first thing I did was reeve all the bottom seams in preparation for planking removal. I've moved the boat and reblocked it with 4X8 oak beams running the length of the keel and jack stands with a 18 foot 2 X 12 running between them and the hull. One at the stern quarter and one midships forward. Will you be inside a shop? For your questions....1) I paint my seams when I paint the new cotton caulking. The paint keeps the cotton in place. The BoatLife adheres fine to it. I have done the area under the new 26' spray rail and the boat has shrunk a bit more...BUT...the boat was out of the water 2 years at that time and should take up fine. I'm always putting it into clean seams....I remove the plank and repair it and clean it up before refastening into place. 2) Hang bottom planking without caulk. Caulk and putty topsides. Cualk bottom with cotton, paint seams. Then you can put in your Polysulfide when all the cottons in. Paint bottom and luanch. smile.gif

[ 09-18-2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[kialoa]

Allen
also nice boat I new someone who lived on a 43' Egg I want to say built in the late 60's like one of the last before they went to glass.
Anyway,I have a building for Kialoa so she is out of the weather (great luxury). I am not planing to reeve cotton out of all of her seams but obviously the planks I replace or rehang will be cleaned up. I have just seen boatlife run out of entire seams and it concerned me, I always assumed this was due to improper preparation I was just trying to get a handle on how clean is clean or oil free before using polysulfides, I do know that done right it holds up well
Rich

[Allen Foote]

Kiola, I've seen that also....and realized a couple of things were happening...1) The planks shrink away from each other breaking the adhesion on one side. Because Polysulfides are elastic, they pull some and then the adhesion fails -vs- 5200 that won't allow the natural exspansion-contraction, and when it does pull apart its taking pieces of wood with it. 2)There are less "remanants" of seam filler -vs- the hardened chunks of seam compound. 3)BUT the main thing here is, the seams were filled and the planks swelled squishing out the excess BoatLife such that upon drying and contracting the old is easily removed and the seams are left to recaulk. It's interesting how many here believe the sole purpose of seam filler is to keep the water out. That should be accomplished MORE by the fit of the 2 planks against each other and the cotton caulking. It seems to me that, the BoatLife was squished and the seams opened quite a bit. To pull out while on the hard and dried out is one thing, but to fall out in hardened chunks while working in a seaway, quite another.