Beating in a 16th-century ship

[George.]

The ships - or naus, naos, carracks - of the late 15th and 16th century are perhaps the first modern ships. They were the first vessels able to go anywhere in the world. They could, and did.

Looking at engravings and painting of the period, I pay attention to the ones that seem to show accurate renditions of ships. I have come to notice that when they show the ships going to windward, many of the drawings show them wearing only main and fore courses and topsails. No spritsail, no mizzen.

Now, I can understand no spritsail, because it can't be tacked properly - no proper lead for the tack. But the mizzen, being the only lateen sail on board (of course, no jibs or staysails in the 16th century, or in the early 17th) would seem to be the best sail for beating. Granted that it may have been hard to balance without the spritsail set. But is that how they really went to windward?

Another related question. The best rendering of 16th-century ships is the superb set of drawings known as the "Memorias das Armadas," which show the Portuguese India Fleets from Vasco da Gama's first trip (1498) on to about the mid-1550s. The details on those drawings are amazing. But it is interesting to note that the sails are very deeply cut - very round. Indeed, the Portuguese word for "square" sail is vela redonda, or "round" sail, referring to its cut. These sails look much like gennakers. Of course, they must have been great for running and reaching. But how close can you beat with a gennaker-on-a-yard? There are records from back then which imply tacking through 120 degrees, or even better. Could it be, with such round-cut sails?

[Hughman]

Sure. But often what you get to windward, you lose to leeway, with the typical hull profile of the era.

[John E Hardiman]

Bowlines were used to flatten the leech which is the leading edge.

Spritsails were only for downwind, and the mizzen was for riding and balance only

[seanz]

George
Is this the sort of rig you mean?

http://www.duyfken.com/replica/sail.jpg
http://www.duyfken.com/replica/sailwind2.jpg

go here http://www.duyfken.com/

or here for the performance assesment http://www.duyfken.com/replica/performance.html

makes for interesting reading

[Thorne]

Not sure about the inability of sprit rigs to sail to windward - the Dutch used 'em extensively for centuries and sailed everywhere.

These aren't like our modern sprit rigs, as the sprit often goes all the way to the deck -- still set up that way for some boats in Norway and Sweden. With the use of lines and other cheats, I think they beat quite a bit in them.

http://www.luckhardt.com/warships.jpg

http://pic2.picturetrail.com/VOL1001/4000928/8302360/111208810.jpg

[Thorne]

Here's one showing the old-style sprit beating to windward -- note the lines used to shape the sails -

http://www.wga.hu/art/b/backhuys/vessel.jpg

[George.]

This is the sort of rig I mean. This is the São Gabriel, Vasco's flagship on his first voyage, obviously running. Note the monetas laced under the foot of the courses. Removing them was the equivalent of reefing.

http://www.marinha.pt/extra/revista/ra_dez2005/pag22_1.jpg

This is the full illustration of the 1498 fleet (I need to find a larger image):

http://www.pcp.pt/publica/militant/252/carta.gif

It is interesting because it shows the S. Gabriel running, the S. Rafael reaching, and the Berrio beating. The fourth ship was the supply ship, which was burned just past the Cape after its supplies and men were transferred to the other three.

The drawings are from the 1550s, but they are considered to be the most accurate renditions of ships from the age of discovery. By the 1550s, naus were much bigger and less maneuverable, since they were hoarding booty and trade rather than exploring. A nau from 1500 might hold 120 toneis, while one from 1550 would typically hold 600+. A tonel was a barrel about 1.5 meters long by 1 m diameter, and the source of our modern concept of ton.

[George.]

Found one.

http://www.lib.umich.edu/area/sasia/ships.jpg

[Ben Fuller]

OK gang, read the posts closely, The fore and aft sprit is not the same as the sprit sail slung under the bowsprit. For performance some time spent looking at the recreation sites like Dufken will provide hard data. As I recall from talking to Eric Speth master of the Godspeed, the sprit, slung under the bowsprit and canted so the the yard was close to vertical was pretty useful as was the lateen. Both of these were tremendously useful as steering sails.

[George.]

And yet if you notice in the drawing I posted, the Berrio, which is beating, is wearing neither spritsail nor lateen mizzen. And this is not a fluke - I find it in drawing after drawing of naus going to windward, in 16th century maps and documents.

[Hughman]

In a windward situation, the bow spritsail and the mizzen balance; one needs the other. Balance is also acheived without either sail set, as indicated in the illustrations.

One of the drawbacks of a bow spritsail is it's penchant for catching water, especially to weather, throwing the helm off. There are large holes near the clews to let the water out. It's not called a 'nosebag' for nothing!

[Thorne]

Oh, the BOW spritsail...DOH! Sorry, my interest in historical rigs starts in the mid-1500's at the earliest.

[John E Hardiman]

And yet if you notice in the drawing I posted, the Berrio, which is beating, is wearing neither spritsail nor lateen mizzen. And this is not a fluke - I find it in drawing after drawing of naus going to windward, in 16th century maps and documents.

George; get a copy of The Evolution of the Wooden Ship by Basil Greenhill and illustrated by Sam Manning (yes, that Sam Manning). In there are good illustrations of the carrack, caravel, and similiar nao.

In the early rigging, no jibs were carried and the bowlines are led forward to the steeply steeved bowsprit, similiar to the Berrio as shown. Note that while she carries both a spirtsail and lateen yards, sails on them are not set. Artistic license? or wind conditions? or just that hulls/masters preference? There are several reconstructions of Columbus's ships sailing now (Nina comes to mind, she was in a previous thread around here). Maybe a google and e-mail to them may prove more insightful than a sketch made 100 years after the fact.

[George.]

Good advice, John. Didn't know about "The Evolution of the Wooden Ship." Will order.

As for the Nina, she was a square-rigged caravel. A very different hull from a nau, and not able to carry nearly as much load - not to mention guns. Good enough for the West Indies run, but wouldn't do for the East India run, except as an escort ship, resupplying from the capital ships as needed.

And those sketches were made "only" 50 years after the fact, when some of the old ships were still sailing. They are considered by historians to be the most accurate representations of the ships that discovered the world between 1492 and 1521 or so.

[Woxbox]

And yet if you notice in the drawing I posted, the Berrio, which is beating, is wearing neither spritsail nor lateen mizzen. And this is not a fluke - I find it in drawing after drawing of naus going to windward, in 16th century maps and documents.


This has been our practical experience with the Kalmar Nyckel (replica of a circa 1625 Dutch ship-rigged pinnace) exactly. When the ship was first launched, almost 10 years ago now, all sails were set whenever time and circumstances allowed. But over time, the spritsails in particular, and the mizzen to a lesser degree, have been used less and less. Why? A good deal of the time they just don't add much, if anything, to performance.

As noted above, the mizzen at times is needed for balance. One day I was at the helm and she didn't want to keep her nose into the wind so I suggested we set the mizzen. The mizzen was set, the ship balanced herself, and we added 1/2 knot. I don't recall the actual speed, but it was in the neighborhood of going from 5 to 5-1/2 knots. That's probably the most difference it would ever make. Most of the time, she balances well whithout the mizzen, so it isn't set.

As to the fullness of the sails, I suspect it's mostly the material they used back then. Even if made flat, they'd stretch themselves out pretty quickly.

[martin schulz]

Well, I think those Cogs (12th century and earlier) are doing pretty good close hauled.

http://www.tallship-fan.de/koggentreffen06/lisa_von_luebeck_g.jpg

http://www.tallship-fan.de/koggentreffen06/hansekogge_g.jpg

http://www.tallship-fan.de/koggentreffen06/koggentreffen_g.jpg

http://www.tallship-fan.de/koggentreffen06/koggen_rostock_g.jpg

Don't forget that the Cogs have regulary been going around the Baltic Sea and the North Sea (up to England).

Here is a very technical comparison of the sailing abilities of cogs with other cargo ships:
http://pitcairn.fb12.tu-berlin.de/kogge/kogge.shtml

[George.]

http://www.tallship-fan.de/koggentreffen06/hansekogge_g.jpg

This one has a rather full-cut sail, and seems to be beating well with it.

How close to the wind can they point? How about the Kalmar Nyckel?

[George.]

Found it for the cog in Martin's link:


Can cogs beat against the wind? The polar plots show the maximally attainable angle of closeness to the true wind to be between 67o and 75o, depending on sail size and wind speed. These are course angles that can be sailed for at least short periods of time, resulting in a VMG value of approximately one knot.

[Kim Whitmyre]

In the photos above, they do look like they are 80° off the wind.

In Brian Fagan's "Cruising Guide: San Francisco to Enseñada," there is this passage from "Two Years Before the Mast" describing a typical Central Coast northwesterlie gale:

"All this time there was not a cloud to be seen in the sky, day or night; no, not as large as a man's hand. Every morning the sun rose cloudless from the sea, and set again at night in the sea, in a flood of light. The stars, too came out of the blue one after another, night after night, unobscured, and twinkled as clear as on a still frosty night at home, until the day came upon them. All this time the sea was rolling in immense surges white with foam, as far as the eye could reach on either side..."

Against the 35 knot summer northwesterlies, it took the square rigger Dana was on 20 days to sail from Santa Barbara to San Francisco. They took the inshore tack for the Golden Gate when halfway to Hawaii.

http://www.tallshipsfestival.com/images/pilgrim.jpg

The Pilgrim is a full size replica of the hide brig immortalized by Richard Henry Dana, Jr. in his American classic seafaring novel Two Years Before the Mast. She is a 130-foot “snow brig” hosting fourteen sails,

[Woxbox]

Well, the Kalmar Nyckel isn't any 19th century snow. Pointing is relative. You can, in a technical kind of way, get the bowsprit pointing 45 degrees off true wind on a good day and hold it there. But, of course, she's making a fair bit of leeway like that. And when pinched, she loses lots of headway. I think it's safe to say that 120 degree tacks are more to be expected, which is to say making a course about 60 degrees off the wind. And that, too, is on a good day. Light wind, heavy wind, heavy seas, any of that stuff will take away a lot.

But who cares? The Kalmar Nyckel and other boats of the type were cargo carriers. The owners wanted to move large quantities of goods as reliably as possible. And at that, the type was very good in her time.

Not to get commercial with the Kalmar Nyckel, which is strictly a not for profit venture anyway, but anyone who wants to see her in action can do so by going to her eponymous website and checking out the schedule. The best day-cruises run three hours out of Lewes, Md., and later in the summer, from Provincetown, Mass. On most any of these trips you'll see her reach, point, run and tack. And, of course, you'll be invited to help raise sail. One afternoon sail will answer a thousand questions.

[Kim Whitmyre]

WB, I was not disparaging the Kalmar Nyckle, just pointing out that even such as the Pilgrim tended to take the "long" way around. ;)

[John E Hardiman]

WB, I was not disparaging the Kalmar Nyckle, just pointing out that even such as the Pilgrim tended to take the "long" way around. ;)

You don't know much about ocean sailing do you. :rolleyes:

It was not until the middle of the 17th century that "modern" sailing vessels were developed that could do "place" sailing (i.e. sailing from one place to another at any time). And those were mostly military and packet ships.

Prior to that and mostly after that, almost all vessels engaged in "route" sailing. In route sailing you sailed the most favorable route, normally down wind. In "age of exploration" vessels, they left europe at a particular time and sailed downwind until they reached a stopover point where they waited until the seasonal winds changed and then continued on. This is why Portuguese round trips to to the east indies took two years, not because the vessel couldn't work to weather as well as a modern sailboat (indeed, from the data, the cogs point as well as a hobie cat, not that a hobie cat is exemplairy in pointing, it's just the cat has a much better SA/D ratio). They took one season to the ivory coast then stoped and traded, a second to the cape, wait to ride the west monsoon to India, then wait for the east monsoon to Malucca. Then reverse the process to go home.

Route sailing lasted until the very last days of sail...check out the timing and winds during the time of the tea clippers and grain clippers of late 1800's , early 1900's. This is why the rise of the "liners", (i.e. Black Ball, Red Ball, etc.) during the 1830's was so profound. And why the clippers placed such a premimum on being sharp and over canvased. And why certian winds are called "the trades".;)

[Kim Whitmyre]

You don't know much about ocean sailing do you. :rolleyes:

It was not until the middle of the 17th century that "modern" sailing vessels were developed that could do "place" sailing (i.e. sailing from one place to another at any time). And those were mostly military and packet ships.

Prior to that and mostly after that, almost all vessels engaged in "route" sailing. In route sailing you sailed the most favorable route, normally down wind. In "age of exploration" vessels, they left europe at a particular time and sailed downwind until they reached a stopover point where they waited until the seasonal winds changed and then continued on. This is why Portuguese round trips to to the east indies took two years, not because the vessel couldn't work to weather as well as a modern sailboat (indeed, from the data, the cogs point as well as a hobie cat, not that a hobie cat is exemplairy in pointing, it's just the cat has a much better SA/D ratio). They took one season to the ivory coast then stoped and traded, a second to the cape, wait to ride the west monsoon to India, then wait for the east monsoon to Malucca. Then reverse the process to go home.

Route sailing lasted until the very last days of sail...check out the timing and winds during the time of the tea clippers and grain clippers of late 1800's , early 1900's. This is why the rise of the "liners", (i.e. Black Ball, Red Ball, etc.) during the 1830's was so profound. And why the clippers placed such a premimum on being sharp and over canvased. And why certian winds are called "the trades".;)

Why thanks for enlightening me, John! :p

[George.]

Actually, the Portuguese would sail from Lisbon to the Malabar coast in a single season. They would leave Lisbon around March, sail down the South Atlantic around May-June-July, when the SE trades have more east in them, then run down the latitude to pass the Cape. They rarely stopped in Southern Africa as they didn't get along with the "cafres" at all.

They would then go up the Mozambique channel (figuring out the currents there was a major advance - they gave Vasco da Gama much grief, as he sailed from Lisbon in July and missed the season) and pick up the SW monsoon around Zanzibar, crossing the Indian Ocean to Goa, typically arriving around September.

BTW, although Columbus is generally lionized in the US narrative of the Age of Discovery, while the Portuguese who actually discovered the world are barely a footnote, I note that Columbus' big crossing from the Canaries to the Bahamas was 3000 miles of downwind sailing in the trades - a piece of flotsam would have made it. Vasco da Gama's big crossing from Cape Verde to South Africa was 5000 miles, crossing the doldrums, reaching down the South Atlantic, and then running down the westerlies. A far greater feat of navigation. Not only that, but when he got there, he knew where he was! :D

[Brian Palmer]

http://www.tallship-fan.de/koggentreffen06/hansekogge_g.jpg

This one has a rather full-cut sail, and seems to be beating well with it.

How close to the wind can they point? How about the Kalmar Nyckel?

Isn't that an engine exhaust coming out just above the waterline?

Maritime Life and Traditions had an article on the cogs about a year ago and I seem to remember that their upwind sailing performance was pretty much non-existent and they had to wait for a favorable wind.

[George.]

Isn't that an engine exhaust coming out just above the waterline?



Busted! :D :D

[carioca1232001]

Actually, the Portuguese would sail from Lisbon to the Malabar coast in a single season. .................................................. ..............................................

BTW, although Columbus is generally lionized in the US narrative of the Age of Discovery, while the Portuguese who actually discovered the world are barely a footnote, I note that Columbus' big crossing from the Canaries to the Bahamas was 3000 miles of downwind sailing in the trades - a piece of flotsam would have made it. Vasco da Gama's big crossing from Cape Verde to South Africa was 5000 miles, crossing the doldrums, reaching down the South Atlantic, and then running down the westerlies. A far greater feat of navigation. Not only that, but when he got there, he knew where he was! :D

Well on this very Forum, not long ago, some people held the view that the Portuguese:

1. Imposed their religion on the local peoples, a practice totally foreign to the 'monotheists' of those times;

2. Instead of 'apartheid', created 'assimilados' wherever they dropped anchor for any extended period of time.

Add to the above, their total lack of knowledge of rolling-stock (trains). :D

Well, a relevant question is in order : Who was to take a ride on their backs, given how knowing they were on navigating by ship to distant places ? ;)

[George.]

I think one must distinguish the Portuguese from, say, 1430 to 1530, when Lisbon was the most enlightened city in the world, comparable only to Athens of 450 BC, from the Portugal dominated by religion and obscurancy that emerged after the Inquisition and the union with Spain.

The former caused a rebirth of science and exploration, and discovered the world. The latter became a footnote in the history of the West, and didn't do so well for its colonies either.

Having been to Portugal recently, I am happy to report that it is undergoing a rebirth.

[martin schulz]

Busted! :D :D


I wondered how long it would take you guys to notice that :)

[Vince Brennan]

No, No! It's only the exhaust from a "genny" to run the Captain's laptop and Ipod! (And the electric -pump head!)

Yah, I missed it totally. Darn.

Geez. If the Bilge-rats could stop beating each and the politicians other up long enough, they could visit the rest of the fora and read some interesting posts!