Adirondak guideboats

[garland reese]

Hey all,

I'm going to try and build myself a strip built guideboat. I bought plans from Newfound woodwork. Plans were done by Nick Schade of Guillemot kayaks. The construction notes are very sparse. I'm familiar with strip/sheathed construction, but I do have a few questions regarding the guideboat itself.

Is there a reason for the sheer being so upturned on the ends? The bottoms of these boats are dead flat. I don't reckon I'll be rowing in any really rough stuff, and a slightly flatter sheer may make it easier to plank with strips that follow the sheer line rather than having the look of strips running out on the sheerline on each end of the boat. I hope that makes sense....? It may make fishing from the boat just a bit easier as well. I'm not talking much here, just a touch less abruptness on the ends.....maybe an inch.

Additionally, I'd like to build a boat that is shorter than the spec'd 16 feet. Given the beam, I'd think a 14 footer would be allright for a couple to putter around in for a day of picnicking, or one for fishing, maybe even two (my youngest girl likes to fish with me) if you're well placed with small anchor, you know fishing the brush and weed beds and undercuts along the shores... probably would work better with one rowing or paddling while the other is casting. I like to use a flyrod, so those lower ends might really be nice. There are a few nice lakes around here (like Greenleaf, or even some parts of Eufala Chuck! Remember those?), that it would be fun to travel along in a boat like this.

Anyway. I don't know. Maybe I should build as planned. Though guideboats were a variant lot. It seems the prolific builders would build boats from 12 to 16 feet or so, depending on a customer's desire and need.

I'm not sure. I've not fished much from a small boat, so I've really no means of comparison.

I'd love to hear any thoughts, before I make any harsh decisions and get down to building.

Also, how hard would it be to fabricate the oar straps and horns (as they call 'em)? being a sliding seat guy, I've even entertained making some type of sliding rigger drop in for occassional use.. don't know that it would be needed, as a big short boat has only so much speed potential under human power (or in my case.... a lack thereof).

Thank for any thoughts or advice.
Garland

[Peter Eikenberry]

The Adirondak Museum has quite a few guideboats. They also sell a book all about guideboats http://www.adirondackmuseumstore.com/merchant/store/index.shtml

These were originally based on canoes, that's why the ends curl up like that.

[garland reese]

I have the book. I started to use the offsets in the book (based on Durant's boats, I think). But I decided it easier to just buy Nick's plans.
There is a new book out; I need to get hold of it...

[Omay Elphick]

I built a guide boat from newfound's plans about 10 years ago. We've loved the boat. I built it while living in the adirondacks and then used it for many years while living in CO and the Rockies.

I think I responded to a some questions a few years ago. You might do a search on the forum. At the time, I believe that I was the first or second set of plans and there were no construction notes. I made it up as I went along using primarily Durants book for details on the deck areas and seats. A few thoughts:

The strip-built boat is no where near as stiff as a ribbed boat, if you build the seats and gunwales the traditional way. Traditionally, there are just outwales. I have since added inwales, the stiffened the boat considerably. Similairly, I have permeneantly attached the seats. That stiffened things even more. I believe that the folks at Newfound have started installing a pair of ribs at the two center stations. I may do this eventually, but if you are building from scratch I would suggest planning on at least two ribs.

Regarding the sliding seat. Guideboats are very fast, but they are rowed very differenently from a crew shell. The cadence is much faster and for obvious reasons you use your arms and upper body, rather than your legs. As a former rower, I considered a used alden sliding seat rig a few years back, but concluded that A) I like the traditional rowing and b) because most of the bouyancy is in th emiddle. Sliding back and forth would actually change the trim significanly from the "catch" to the "finish." I'd be happy to answer specific questions if you have any.

Best,

[Lazy Jack]

I would echo what Omay Elphick posted. I've built two adirondack guide boats, one strip planked, the other the boat in the Durant book. My strip boat is 14 feet long and relies on a fixed center seat to maintain rigidity. When building it, I had no problem flexing the strips into the up turned ends.

It easily reaches hull speed with 8 foot oars, I can see no advantage to using a sliding seat especially with a shorter boat which will hobby-horse as you move back and forth

As far as fishing from it, you'd probably do all your fishing from a seated postion

You've suggested several alterations from the plans which would make the boat more suitable for your use (shorter, lower ends etc)...Have you considered drawing your own set of lines? It's really pretty easy and you only need to develop one quadrant in a symetric boat!

[garland reese]

Thanks guys. Yes, that is why I was considering a sliding rigger, not a sliding seat. The boat is much too short to use a sliding seat rowing rig. I sort of frgured that one could get the boat up to hull speed without the sliding rig.... thank you for your advice.

Yes, Newfound does now recommend two partial ribs in the middle, to act as mounts for the cleats that the seat mounts to, and to add some stiffness. They also comment on adding an inwhale for some additional stiffness. I've considered doing an inwhale like those of stripper canoes (with scupper holes). That wouldn't add too much weight, but the stiffness would increase and those holes are handy sometimes.

Anyway. I love the look of these boats, and I think I will enjoy using it.

Did you purchase the straps and oar horns from Newfound?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I've not fished much from a small boat, so I've really no means of comparison.
Can you hire a canoe in the 12 to 14 foot range, just for an afternoon - and go fishing - might be money well spent.

[rbgarr]

It's my understanding that the Adirondack guides who used these boats did not consider them a very good platform for fishing. The major concern in the design was making them easy to carry on the guide's shoulders for portages.

[garland reese]

Yes, I think you are right. They aren't really all that stable, unless they are heavily loaded. And when fishing, I think the guide was still maneuvering the boat as his patron did the fishing in many instances.

I've fished a bit from my 13 foot canoe. It was not the easiest thing to do, I must admit. But my canoe is only 27 inches abeam, and I sit way down in the boat, rather than on gunwhale mounted seats. I think a lot of times, it may be just as good to put the boat onto the shore and wade the shores. But a lot of good shore line seems easier to get to from the water, in many cases.

That, and I just like the guideboat, and it's history. I'm pretty sure that a little melonseed skiff would be a decent boat to use to get to good fishy water. That's a boat on my short list as well.

In any case, the guideboat should be fun. Thanks for all the information gentlemen! It is very much appreciated by this landlubber.

[neilm]

It's hard to beat a pram for fishing but I know what you mean about the history and speed of the Adirondack. What about a Rangley Lake boat? They have a flatter bottom and more beam making them more suited to fishing. I think a 16fter weighs about 90lbs. A St. Lawrence River skiff is also similar but heavier. I ordered plans for a 15ft St. Lawrence River skiff I read about in a Wooden Boat magazine called a Skaneateles No. 5. I got them from this guy (http://www.shakerovalbox.com/school/aboutschool.htm). Nice looking boat, great plans. The original was built by Skaneateles Boat & Canoe Co. (1893 - 1932) and could be ordered in 14 and 15ft LOA.

Neil

[W Grabow]

I designed and built my own 14 1/2 foot guideboat when we were living in northern NY. I placed ribs every 9" and had both inwales and outwales to provide stiffness. The midships deadrise was a 1/3 slope lateral to the plank keel. A narrow waterline with not much initial stability, but with the flare it picks up stability after some initial heeling. I flared it to achieve 42" between oarlocks and eliminated oar overlap. I did not sweep the ends up as much as traditional; seemed like un-needed windage (and weight) to me. It bobs like a cork over waves with little splash. Also makes it easier to car-top inverted. The boat is fast; even with a passenger I can keep up with 17' canoes using two paddlers. It has moveable seats: solo I sit in the center; with a passenger I move to the other side of the oars and the passenger sits toward the other end (symetrical hull). I have wondered if I had made the boat longer how much speed that may add? You will enjoy it, and it will attract an audience at the launch dock. Good luck.

[Omay Elphick]

I've used my guideboat primarily for fishing. The remarkable thing about the design is that rowing solo, she is easy to get up to hull speed and maintain it for 20 minutes with out too much effort. Its the best "row" boat I've ever rowed. Fishing by myself, the boat is perfect. Lots of space and more stable than a canoe. Part of that has to do with the much lower center of gravity. You're almost sitting on the floor board. With two people, the boat is best fished like they did in the old days. The rower, rowing and offering running commentary while the fisher fishes. My buddy and I have fished countless lakes like this and it is a relaxing time for all. The rower is well positioned to help land anything larger than 18 inches. One important thing to note is that with two people and some gear the boat develops the stability of a barge. Its really a cleaver design. Cargo hauler when needed, sports car when you're solo.

Go for it, you won't regret it. It used to spend more time on the roof of my truck, but even now when we take it north for a few weeks each summer I inevitably get cash offers. One guy in Colorado, followed me for 25 miles in the mountains and finally talked to me when I stopped for gas. He asked a bunch of questions. Said he remembered guideboats from his youth spending summers in the ADKs and would I be interested in selling it. I had just finished it six months before and was enjoying it so much that it was not for sale at any price. He offered me $5000, with $1000 in cash on the spot as a deposit. I politely declined. I still have his card somewhere, that was 10 years ago, perhaps I should call him and see if he's still interested. ;)

[Tom Robb]

If you want to change the boat that much, why start with a guide boat?

I don't get it. Regularly, somebody starts a thread about some boat plan or other and then wants to change everything!
Look for a different plan!
Good grief :rolleyes:

[garland reese]

Well Tom,
As is well documented, guideboats were built in a large variance of overall length (the typical length though, being depicted as bottom board length, not overall length). That is a very common change among guideboats, it seems.
As for the high ends, it is mostly out of practicality. I don't need ends that high. The waters I row don't get too awfully rough. The thought of a sliding rig is something that is offered in some of the modern versions of the guideboat. Though, given it's hull shape, I wondered of the ultimate value in such a set up.
Those, I'd estimate, are not major changes by most standards...... no changes to the waterline shapes, rocker, or any such stuff.

Thanks to everyone for the input. Omay, as well as all the commentary here, have been a great help.

I guess I could have built a canoe. But then it would have been, well, a canoe ;)