Restoration of 16' Cruisers Inc.

[JohnPlatou]

I have a 1960 16' Cruisers Inc. 202 in excellent condition except I noticed the inner keel has a small amount of rot and the ribs have lost about 1/4" due to rot.

I removed all floors and seats to inspect the complete keel and ribs. Appears rot is consistant in the whole keel, about 1/4" at bottom tapering to 0 about 3/4" up. All ribs seem to be soft for about 1/4". My best guess for repair is:
1. Pressure wash inside bottom of boat to remove 43 years of light dirt. Will pressure washing harm wood unless rotted? I'm assuming it will take out rotten wood leaving little doubt what needs to be replaced.
2. Brace up bottom after removing engine. Build cradle for boat with center section open to remove outer keel and be able to install new screws thru hull plywood into new sister and inner keel. Remove cross braces to gain full access to inner keel. To hold the bottom sections together when the inner and outer keels are removed, I plan on using a ratchet tie down strap every 3rd rib. The rachet strap will allow pulling the two bottom halves together if they start separating. The other option would be plumbers strap or maybe i/4" plywood strips. They would be removed after the inner keel is secured to the two bottom plywood halves. Then the outer keel would be installed.
3. Remove screws holding sister keel to inner keel, at this point screws holding the ribs to sister keels will be cut with a dremil tool. repeat other side. Cut out inner keel so it can be used as a pattern for the new inner keel.
4. Carfully clean old bedding compund fron plywood bottom. Repair plywood as necesary. In worst case replace bottom plywwod (very last choice).
5. Remove 1/2" from end of each rib to cut away most rot. Inject Git rot in ens of ribs to insure rot does not retun and to seal wood.
6. Carefully cut and shape new inner keel 1" wider than old one to make up for cutting left and right ribs 1/2" shoter. Possibly use fiberglass and mat to fill gap between new keel and plywood bottom. If I used a separating coating between new keel and plywood, I could then pull,the new keel and fiberglass filler and trim. I could then install the new keel with fiberglass filler with beding compound 5200? The inner keel would then be fashened to the hull by screwing thru the bottom into the innner keel. The sister keels would then be installed and screwed from below thru plywwod bottom.
Will it work? Better ideas? Do I really have a problem or should I let it go? Thanks for your input.

John Platou
Crosby Texas (Houston)
832 473 8928

[ 12-07-2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: JohnPlatou ]

[Jack Heinlen]

Well, before you do anything slow down. smile.gif

The plank keel is rotten from the bottom about 3/4 the way through, is that what you are describing, along most of the length? If so replacing it is the way to go.

The last bit of the frames being rotten is a bitch. How rotten? Git Rot isn't a sin, especially in a place like that where it isn't structural.

Gather the opinions that will accumulate here. Sort through them, answer questions, etc. You'll get a pretty good picture of what work is entailed.

Good luck.

[JohnPlatou]

Jack

The inner keel is only roten about 1/4" deep from each side at the bottom, it tapers to 0 (no rot) about 3/4" up from the bottom. The inner keel is 1 1/8" wide and about 3" tall so rot is no a large percentage of the cross section. The boat does leak a lot of water in the keel area probably 150 gallon/hr. after a 2 day wetting. When dry it leaked about 400 GPH.

My concern is a little rot will grow over time. The boat was in Wis. but after buying it last month, I trailered it to Houston Texas, were wood boats don't do well. I keep mine in a garage, and wonder if in should run a small a/c unit to control the normal 95% humidity.

I have not started cutting yet, just removed enough to determine damage. The purpose of the post is to get other ideas and determine my options.

This is my first wood boat since 1965, when I built 3 different boats while in junior high.

I have replaced the keels and floors in two of my glass boats over the years and are not looking for work, just the best way to keep a great boat in the condition it deserves. Thanks for reply johnplatou

[ 10-07-2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: JohnPlatou ]

[Jack Heinlen]

Words are inadequate. This boat, right, shouldn't leak at all, but I wonder if there aren't other issues causing the leaks. These boats were often powered into chops so as to loosen fastenings in the planks. Can you see the water coming in? The garboards are fastened to the keel with screws? I wonder if some refastening might not bring the boat tight again, with some git rotting to treat the punky places, but it's really hard to say without looking at it. Pics?

[JohnPlatou]

Jack

To check for leaks,I removed rear floor boards and put boat it water. I observed water coming in on both sides of keel from transom forward 5' to where the seats and front floor boards did not allow observing water coming in. There was also a small leak about 4" wide at the transom hull interface. Also a small trickle in the chime where the bottom meets the first lap.

I plan on putting it in the water again in the next few days to observe leaking since I now have all the floor and seats removed.

I also found a larger amount of rot in the forefoot/ keel intersection. Have not thought thru the fix for this one. The small leak at the transom also needs a solution.

How can I post pictures?

[JFH]

If my guess is correct, you will not need to go to all that much trouble to replace the inner keel. My 14' Grew-Cruiser is very similar to yours. I replaced the inner keel a couple of years ago.

The bottom is supposed to be flat along the keel with no rocker so, I simply put it on the floor of the shop and propped up the sides with blocks to keep her level. The inner keel was removed with any tool and every tool and in chunks. I can't remember if there were through-bolts or not but if there were, I think I just cut them off flush. Then I sanded and prepared the boat for the new wood, made the new piece and bedded it in 3M 5200 and fastened with 316 stainless #12 Robertson screws. That was all she needed and the ribs were fine. The ribs for my boat were butted up against the inner keel, which made it easy to do.

I have also done the same with a glassed cedar-strip that had slots for each rib. Before I varnished the inside, I sealed below the waterline with epoxy sealer (Industrial Formula S1 from British Columbia through Noah's in Toronto)

Not that difficult and you may want to replace the ribs sections before the inner keel. Just scarf new sections in with epoxy. Again, easier and cheaper than replacing the whole rib.

Let me know how it goes.

Jim www.innerbayboats.com (http://www.innerbayboats.com)

[JohnPlatou]

Jim

Thanks for input.

Was your inner keel set in glue or bedding compond?

When your removed the inner keel did your boat try to spread apart at the keel? How did you hold it together?

The top of my keel is absolutly straight, although the bottom has aslight rocker of about 1" in 12'. I loked at another Cruissers that had been used 1 years before being put up in the garage for 40+ years, it also had a slight rocker, so I assume thats the way they were built.

My ribs are only rotten about 1/4" so if I cut off 1/2" and increase the width of inner keel 1",so I should not have to replace any rib ends.

[ 10-08-2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: JohnPlatou ]

[Roger Stouff]

John,
I had a Thompson with the same exact problem, except much more severe. I like your idea of widening the keel to make up for the loss of the rib length, and though I'm no expert, I can't see but how this should make for a stronger backbone overall.

I might notch the rib ends into the outer keel pieces, and epoxy in, but that might be overkill. Still, a little overbuilding never hurt anybody, right?

Good luck, and pictures would be greatly appreciated!

R

[JFH]

If your boat is like mine, the inner-keel is seperarte from the outer-keel. This makes for easy replacement.

No, the two "keels" were not glued together previously. The seams in the laps are caulked with some kind of goop but everything in my boat is mechanically fastened. I used the 3m 5200 as a fastener and to prevent water from sitting between the joint and causing the same problem later.

Your outer keel should come off after removing the bungs and you'll see that the garboards are fastened to the inner-keel with screws or nails.

If both are removed, you will definately need some sort of temporary molds or bracing to keep the hull fair.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[MuddyFeet]

John -

I have a 16' Cruisers that had the exact same problems: rotted keel and rotted ribs. I took the following "keep-it-from-getting worse" steps:

The keel was rotted most severely in the bow where water can sit. In that section I did what you propose: I cut out the keel, shaped a wider section, and laid it in with the help of thickened epoxy filets and an overlay of fiberglass, inside and out. No, I didn't have problems with the hull spreading apart, but I only cut out about 4 feet of the worst section.

The rest of the keel was rotting where the mahogony keel joined the first ply strake (garboard?). Inside the boat, I scraped out the rot along the two edges of the mahogony keel and ran a filet of thickened epoxy along it. Under the boat, I ran a stip of 'glass cloth and epoxy over the keel.

I don't put much stock in the Git rot stuff.

The rotted ribs? I just ignored them. Painted her, put new floorboards in, and went boating.

Needless to say, I didn't read this forum before doing any of this -- didn't read much of anything besides the instructions on the can of West.

But, it held and the rot didn't spread.

That was ten years ago. Kids are grown now and have great memories of Sunday afternoons skiing and tubing on Lake Geneva, WI. We pounded across waves with the old Johnson whining flat out. MuddyFeet took some real pounding and I always worried about it holding together, but never had to go back and do more work.

With the kids grown up and heading to college, I wanted to get back to sailing. I bought a wooden sailboat and restored her last winter. MuddyFeet sat unused in the garage all summer while I went sailing on Annie Marie, and I now see dry rot on Muddy Feet's mahogony transom where it joins the strakes. I understand from this forum that is also common. So I have to decide if I want to do anything with that or just mess around with the sailboat.

Bottom line: If you want the wonderful pleasure of a wooden boat and enjoy all those comments at the launch ramp or when you've drop anchor off the beach ("....gee, my grandfather had a boat just like that! Had so much fun with it!") you'll take a few shortcuts like I did and get on the water. If you want to make it perfect, well, hmmm...you probably should start with a little higher quality boat that will have more value when you're done restoring it.

Anyway...thanks for letting me ramble. Kind of nice to see someone else getting started on the same project.

[JohnPlatou]

Muddyfeet

Thanks for the reply.

Where exactly is the rot in the transom where the lapstrake meets? Is it on the bottom plywood or the the sides. My boat also for Wis., but now in Texas (high temp and humitiy great for growing rot) seems to have no problem here. Have a mssed a spot? Do have a small leak about 4" wide at the traamsom and bottom about 15" off center line. Is this a spot were rot could be starting?

My boat is in really great shape excect for the keel problem. I want to repair the damage in the best possible way to insure the boat will be around another 40 years. It not my primary boat, so time to repair is not critical.

I've heard that you and several others have used 5200 or thicken expoxy to bed the inner keel back in place. This should realy hold the two hullhalves together. At least one reply has said not the use 5200 or as I thought exoxy with a fiberglass mat as a bedding compound. They claim that the boat needes to flex. I'm thinking their probably correct, if I can suceed in shaping the replacement keel to the plywood hull. But if I can't then fiberglass mat will give a water tight structural fit for a time. That is unless the hull realy does flex at the keel as some have stated. In your case you may have proven that its not necessary. Have you noticed any leaking in the keel area? How much use did you boat get over the last 10 years? Did the boat get used every day during the summer or every other weekend?

[ 10-11-2003, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: JohnPlatou ]

[MuddyFeet]

1) "Where exactly is the rot in the transom where the lapstrake meets?"
It's fairly high up on the transom, above the waterline. I doubt you missed a spot -- it's fairly easy to find. Just poke around the inside and outside of the transom with a handle-end of a small screwdriver. There should be no indentation. If the wood is soft, you'll easily dent the wood.

2) "They claim that the boat needes to flex."
Yes, it certainly does. You can feel that when you bounce the boat over wakes doing S-turns as you try to throw the kids off the tube or skis :). In fact, on a really rough day, I'll see more water seeping in through the strakes than on smooth water. The boat is definitely flexing a bit.

So, you don't want to epoxy over the seams of the strakes. But the garboard strake is glued to the keel, not held with copper screws/rivets like the strakes the rest of the way up. So using epoxy there is OK, IMO. That first strake wasn't intended to flex.

The boat always leaks a bit. Just the way it is -- my trusting wife stopped worrying after the first several times out.

3) "How much use did you boat get over the last 10 years? Did the boat get used every day during the summer or every other weekend?"

We went boating just about every summer weekend for the first 7 years. The last couple years it was less.

It's not use that makes a wooden boat deteriorate. But sun on the varnish, and just time and humidity, are the things that have you back refinishing and repainting. I think dry-sailing off a trailer and keeping the boat in the garage and out of the sun were major factors in getting 10 years on the paint/varnish.

Now, the living-room-furniture ChrisCrafts on Lake Geneva got a few coats every year, I'm sure. But us working-class folks, well, we have work-boat finishes. :)

- MuddyFeet

[JFH]

Hey guys,

My 14' Grew/Cruiser is in the water for six months of the year and has been mine since 1988. As long as you "put in what you take out" and keep away from any "quick-fix" solutions, the life of the boat ill exceed your own.

I see many boats in a year and the ones that were not fiberglassed are always easier and cheaper to repair. I tell my customers that the fiberglass is like a "death sentence" to a wooden boat unless the wood is completely sealed from moisture, inside and out.

Do you have any pics that you could post?

Jim

[JohnPlatou]

Will post pictures if someone can tell me how.

Have started to remove inner and outer keel. Outer first. Easy so far, remove section of outer keel, by removing screws, keel basically fell off. Now the next challenge, the plywood bottom is nailed to the inner keel thru the plywood. Would be no problem if the nail heads were close to the surface, but they are countersunk about 1/8 maybe 3/16 inch into 3/8? bottom. Why did Cruisers use screws to fashen plywood to ribs but nails for plywood to inner keel? Seems like it should be other way around?
Nails were also used to fashen plywood to transom, again seems like screws would be better.
How do I get the countersunk nails out? Best solution I'e come upwith is sawing thru the inner keel from above thru the nails about a 1/4 inch off the bottom????

Next challenge. The screws holding plywood to ribs are about 1/2 turn loose. They tighten up but, should I pull them out and replace them with slightly larger screws.

I've probed the screw hole and it seem to have solid wood no rot in the screw hole areas. Seems like when refinishing hull I should also tighten all bolts and nuts holding the lapstrapes together. Would a shot of get rot into each scre hole when replacing screws be a good idea?

I have noticed a large number of broken screws some only the last 1/4 of a 2 1/2 screw. I am replacing them, but should I use brass (if thats what was orginial) or silicon brass or ????. I understand ss should not be mixed with brass??

Can anyone tell me how to post pictures of this.

Thanks

[JFH]

The builder would have used brass screws (I believe) because mine was like that. If you have the outer keel removed and then remove the inner keel, there is really nothing to hold the shape of the boat together unless you have some sort of bulkhead type brace in place.
You could also bed the outer keel in place with a few well placed fasteners first and then remove the inner keel. When the bedding compound (3M 5100) is set, remover the fasteners from the outer keel and then go at the inside.
When all is replaced inside, fasten the outer keel permanently and bung the holes with wooden plugs (it prevents sweating on those parts).
Of, course, anything can be done with a little ingenuity. Hope this helps....

To post pics, you need to upload your collection onto a host site like imagestation (http://www.imagestation.com) Then you need to open up two internet connections at the same time. One with the forum and one with the imagestation address. Minimize one while working with the other...

When it is time to post, use the image button and it will prompt you for an address. Now go to the other screen and right click on the image and slide down to "properties". It will give the address. Simply highlight the address by dragging your cursor over the line with your left mouse button clicked.

After the address is highlighted you can right click and copy. Then go back to the other screen with the prompt that is waiting for you and right click and paste the address.

To see if it works, hit preview.

I took a while to get mine to work but, once you are successful, it is pretty simple.

JFH

[JFH]

Oh and for the copper nails that fasten the hull to the inner keel, just nip them off after removing the inner keel in pieces. Thats what I did when I replaced only the inner keel. The fasteners will stick up a little and a dremel tool will cut them down a little further. After some bedding compound and the new inner stock, I simply screwed some #12 stainless screws through the whole "mess" and this did the trick. I guess I could have used brass, but I figured the screws would be slightly coated as they penetrated all that bedding goop.

Cheers :D

[John Bell]

I have a friend who just replaced the keel on his 1950-something Cruisers runabout. I could put you in touch with him if you like. Contact me off list.

[TimothyB]

For one more suggestion...

Get Jim Trefethan's Book! "Wooden Boat Renovation", available at the Woodenboat online store. I have it and it has a huge amount of great info in there on just the kind of project you are talking about.

--T

[JohnPlatou]

Now have 3/4 of inner keel out. Result very little rot but there is some. Structualy if I had not taken it out in 3' pieces if could probably go back in for another 10 years, but my goal is to do it 100%.

The boat in now held together by 18" gal. straps on the outside of hull every 12".

The surprize to me is there is absolutly no bedding compound of any type between the plywod and the inner keel. Seems like it should have never worked. Only a bead of caulk down each side of the outed keel!!! One small strip of cotton seam rope between gap in plywwod and maybe a small amount of glue. Does not seem like this should have ever worked.

I'm I making a mistake bedding the new inner keel in with 5200??. Could it cause water to collect in any unfilled void and rot? Should the inner keel go back in without bedding compound as when new??? Just put a bead of caulk down each side of the outer keel???