The Democrats care only about what's good for Democrats

[Phillip Allen]

And the Republicans care only about what's good for the Republicans

And no one pays much attention to the best interests of the ordinary citizen...he is there only to be used to inhance the power of the two afore mentioned parties

Political posturing is rising to the surface

[PatCox]

And whats good for Democrats is, or used to be, doing good for the ordinary citizens, whereas whats good for republicans is and always has been doing good for the big money corporations and the rich.

[Phillip Allen]

now THINK about what you just said...Remember Jackson and Polk and Taft and on and on

[S.V. Airlie]

Pat you can't be serious about the origins of the Republican Party... I mean...really.. If I remember right going back to 1856, and that election.. Fremont, first candidate.. then Lincoln.. The party was essentially made up of farmers.
The party did not start out the way you profess...

[High C]

And whats good for Democrats is, or used to be, doing good for the ordinary citizens, whereas whats good for republicans is and always has been doing good for the big money corporations and the rich.

Shirley you don't believe this?!? :eek:

[Norman Bernstein]

Pat you can't be serious about the origins of the Republican Party... I mean...really.. If I remember right going back to 1856, and that election.. Fremont, first candidate.. then Lincoln.. The party was essentially made up of farmers.
The party did not start out the way you profess...

Jamie, the labels 'Republican', 'Democrat', 'liberal', and 'conservative' have completely lost their meaning in the last few decades.... and dragging out poor old Lincoln as a way of saying anything whatsoever about what it means to be a Repulbican is absurd.

Do you honestly thing that Goldwater, or even Reagan, would even remotely recognize what passes for Republican these days? Or that Roosevelt would recognize one of today's Democrats as even being a member of his own party?

I recall when being a Republican meant wanting to get the government off the backs of people's private lives..... but today, we have the Schiavo disgrace, anti-gay attitudes, opposition to abortion, and so on. I recall when being a Democrat meant supporting racial discrimination... but that's hardly the case today. Conservatives used to tend towards isolationism in foreign policy.... see any hint of that today?

Instead, we use those labels as brickbats.... weapons to use against anyone who doesn't conform to a given set of beliefs. If a person expresses a single progressive sentiment, he's labeled a 'secular humanist'.... even if the bulk of his beliefs are conservative (or what USED to be conservative). I have no doubt that some a$$wipe is going to chime in and tell me what *I* am.... $5 will get you $10.

I wish I could reject the usage of these labels entirely.... but it's become impossible. I wish people wouldn't label each other, and label me, based upon my views on a few specific issues.... but they do, and they probably always will.

[S.V. Airlie]

Norman.. the post I copied indicated "is and always has been...blah blah blah.." Now if you look at how that was worded.. going back to 1856 is more than fair game... He, original auther did not put anything on there to indicate a time frame.. as in since 1900 or 1950, or 1960...... No, he wrote what I copied...
So, I questioned it as written...
The republican party is not the same as it was in 1856.. and one should not assume so.. We have changed as has the Dem party over the years... To make a blanket statement is incorrect.

[Leon m]

origins of the Republican Party... I mean...really.. If I remember right going back to 1856, ...

Damn !...You are old. :D

[troutman]

The party that gets tax cuts for the top 1% is the reeps and the party for a hike in minimum wage is the dems. Are you that easily confused? I'll make this simpler: the reeps all believe down deep that 10 year old boys working in mines and 10 year old girls sewing in a factory without fire escapes is just fine and the dems don't. Its our history. No body made this up. Read a book for god's sake.

[High C]

And don't call me Shirley!

http://www.movieparrot.com/img/actors/leslie-nielsen.jpg

Bada bing! :D

[PatCox]

Of course lately the dems have sold out to business (Clinton and Nafta and free trade) and the republicans have sold out to the religious whackos.

But through the 20th century, at least, it was republicans were for "getting government off the backs of the people," which is doublespeak for making sure the rich pay no taxes and their businesses don't have to deal with any regulations, and the democrats have been all about the 40 hour week and safe food and drugs and workplace safety and the minimum wage and a chance at the american dream for anyone who would work, which is an archaic way of saying "a living wage," the concept that anyone who is willing to work for a living should be able to own a home, raise kids, and have a secure retirement, all while being able to expect that his kids will do better than he did.

Since Ronald Reagan that dream has been battered and damaged beyond recognition as the republicans try their best to kill it.

[hokiefan]

Of course lately the dems have sold out to business (Clinton and Nafta and free trade) and the republicans have sold out to the religious whackos.

But through the 20th century, at least, it was republicans were for "getting government off the backs of the people," which is doublespeak for making sure the rich pay no taxes and their businesses don't have to deal with any regulations, and the democrats have been all about the 40 hour week and safe food and drugs and workplace safety and the minimum wage and a chance at the american dream for anyone who would work, which is an archaic way of saying "a living wage," the concept that anyone who is willing to work for a living should be able to own a home, raise kids, and have a secure retirement, all while being able to expect that his kids will do better than he did.

Since Ronald Reagan that dream has been battered and damaged beyond recognition as the republicans try their best to kill it.

What I've never understood is what is wrong with the middle ground. To have a strong society, you have to have a strong business environment. The only way for people to have good jobs is for good jobs to be available. Look at how many people are out of work when an industry gets sick. On the other hand, the more money the general population has, the more the consumer will spend and the easier it is for business to be strong. So it seems that done right, everybody can win. Guess I'm just a naive fool.

Philip is right in general though. Each party is only looking out for the good of their party. I feel like both parties have lost their way, with no real leaders to be found.

Bobby

[High C]

...the democrats have been all about the 40 hour week and safe food and drugs and workplace safety and the minimum wage and a chance at the american dream for anyone who would work....

Surely you don't believe this?!? :eek:

The party that bred a massive underclass to create dependent voters is all about the American dream?

The Democrat party has been about one thing and one thing only, power. They're the mob without the charm.

[Keith Wilson]

It's the "Democratic Party", HighC. If you're going to fling around insults, at least get the name right.

[erster]

It's the "Democratic Party", HighC. If you're going to fling around insults, at least get the name right.

LOL!! This from a party rep that has more more labels and more standard daily insults directed towards their opposition that is not even close to the party affiliation. :rolleyes: :p

[Phillip Allen]

It's the Democrat Party..."democratic" is a word meant to fool the masses of asses...have you been fooled lately?

[Phillip Allen]

I gotta question: Which side of the "aisle" does the general public (that haven't taken a team side) get to be represented by?

The rest of you may feel free to paint your faces red or blue and boo the refs at the big game of life.

[John of Phoenix]

Democrat, republic, whatever...

[Norman Bernstein]

The Democrat party has been about one thing and one thing only, power. They're the mob without the charm.

....whereas the Republican party holds only the highest and most noble aspirations, and would never stoop to playing any sort of politics, preferring instead to keep exclusively and completely to the high moral ground.

And if you believe that, there's always this swampland in Jersey I could sell ya....

So, the Republicans have charm, do they? Excuse me, I'll be out of commission for a while until I stop laughing!

[Phillip Allen]

so...how do we fix it?

[High C]

....whereas the Republican party holds only the highest and most noble aspirations, and would never stoop to playing any sort of politics, preferring instead to keep exclusively and completely to the high moral ground.

And if you believe that, there's always this swampland in Jersey I could sell ya....

So, the Republicans have charm, do they? Excuse me, I'll be out of commission for a while until I stop laughing!

There he goes again, holding both sides of a conversation! :D

http://www.blaskan.nu/Bilder/marty_feldman.jpg

[Norman Bernstein]

so...how do we fix it?

Possibly by recognizing that extremist partisans make the most noise but represent the smallest minority of political thought... and by electing people who understand the value of compromise and bipartisanship. John McCain used to be one of those.... Teddy Kennedy still is. There are others, as well.

Until we stop labelling people and characterizing them as extremists by looking at just one or two of their beliefs and positions, nothing positive is likely to happen.

[Phillip Allen]

well yes...that's a start. I have been telling my friends that "we" are on the same side...against the politicians of both major parties...they're a whole lot better funded and organized than their victims though

[Phillip Allen]

If ill-jay and I can compromise on some point (respectfully) it represents more value by far that a compromise between the "aisles" (which is simply corruption by another name)

[High C]

... extremist partisans make the most noise....

That's certainly true on this forum.

[Norman Bernstein]

well yes...that's a start. I have been telling my friends that "we" are on the same side...against the politicians of both major parties...they're a whole lot better funded and organized than their victims though

It is worth bearing in mind that more people identify themselves in this country as 'independent' or 'moderate' than do those who identify as 'conservative' or 'liberal'.... and neither party can win an election by appealing only to it's base.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

I am proud to count myself among Democrats ready to voth for Barack Obama.

I am also a former Republican who once rand for Third Ward City Councilman on a ticket that included a gay candidate for Mayor and a former Mayor convicted for embezelment then running for Couincilman At Large. This was definately not one of yer ordinaly "stuffed shirt" Republican Tickets.

When I ran for City Coubncil on a Republican ticket, I ended up voting for many of the Democratic candidates, and even put their bumper stickers on my truck.

I am always open to decent candidates from either party.

But Bush is such a despicable Bast--d that I find it difficult to be civil whenever I think either of him or his administration.

Impeach the SOB, I say.

Moby Nick

[LeeG]

nothing to add. nope.

[Phillip Allen]

If I vote for Obama, it will NOT be because he is a Democrat or because of party affiliation on my part...I am not a gang menber of any gang

[ljb5]

What I've never understood is what is wrong with the middle ground. To have a strong society, you have to have a strong business environment. The only way for people to have good jobs is for good jobs to be available. Look at how many people are out of work when an industry gets sick. On the other hand, the more money the general population has, the more the consumer will spend and the easier it is for business to be strong. So it seems that done right, everybody can win.

There's nothing wrong with the middle ground. That's why Bill Clinton was such a successful president. (Yes, I know he got a blow job. :rolleyes: ) He also led this country out of a recession, through eight years of peace and prosperity and through the longest economic expansion in our history. He wasn't perfect, but that's a pretty darn good record.

By any reasonable standard, Al Gore, John Kerry and Bill Clinton were very middle-of-the-road. Sometimes, they were even criticized for being too pro-business, (NAFTA, for example.) Even in their wildest fits of taxing the rich, they never proposed tax rates anywhere near as high as the majority of the developed world. By European or Canadian standards, they would be considered very conservative. Despite the hyperbole of the right-wing screamers, there was only a hair's difference between Clinton's tax policy and Bush Sr.

It's a shame that the modern activist conservative has moved so far to the extreme of the right wing that they can no longer identify when a popular, successful president with a pro-growth record is not a communist.

[few3]

(Yes, I know he got a blow job. :rolleyes: )

Silly Rabbit, He lied under oath as a sitting president, the blowjob wasn't the reason he was impeached. Jeepers, get your facts straight.

Reaganomics dumbass!!!!

RECORDS SET

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court
* According to our best information, 40 government officials were indicted or convicted in the wake of Watergate. A reader computes that there was a total of 31 Reagan era convictions, including 14 because of Iran-Contra and 16 in the Department of Housing & Urban Development scandal. 47 individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine were convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes with 33 of these occurring during the Clinton administration itself. There were in addition 61 indictments or misdemeanor charges. 14 persons were imprisoned. A key difference between the Clinton story and earlier ones was the number of criminals with whom he was associated before entering the White House.
Using a far looser standard that included resignations, David R. Simon and D. Stanley Eitzen in Elite Deviance, say that 138 appointees of the Reagan administration either resigned under an ethical cloud or were criminally indicted. Curiously Haynes Johnson uses the same figure but with a different standard in "Sleep-Walking Through History: America in the Reagan Years: "By the end of his term, 138 administration officials had been convicted, had been indicted, or had been the subject of official investigations for official misconduct and/or criminal violations. In terms of number of officials involved, the record of his administration was the worst ever."

[ljb5]

Silly Rabbit, He lied under oath as a sitting president, the blowjob wasn't the reason he was impeached.

Perhaps you've forgotten. Clinton was acquitted of all charges for which he was impeached.

[BrianW]

Clinton rode the 'peace dividend' wave, at least to a degree anyhow. Which of course meant the next guy had to build things back up again, militarily. Sort of like Regan had to do after Carter left the Services in a shamble.

(Although I still agree, we never needed the B1 bomber.)

Fortunately for Regan, winning the Cold War went smoother than Bush Jrs attempt to win the war on terrorism.

[ljb5]

Which of course meant the next guy had to build things back up again, militarily.

That almost makes sense.... except that it's not what happened. When Bush entered office, the first thing Cheney and Rumsfeld started to do was decrease the military. They said they wanted a smaller, more agile military -- and they ignored or contradicted the career military professionals who told them it was a bad idea.


Fortunately for Regan, winning the Cold War went smoother than Bush Jrs attempt to win the war on terrorism.

If anyone benefited from the peace dividend wave, it was Reagan. Carter was saddled with the tail end of Vietnam, and smart enough not to get us involved in lots of petty quagmires in the Middle East and Central America.

Reagan spent a lot of money but accomplished little. He stuck his nose a few places where it didn't belong, got it smacked in Beirut, and sold weapons to Islamofacists.... but mostly he proved the wisdom of not losing wars by not starting them.

[S.V. Airlie]

bj5.. I am really confused here.. A few months ago, I mentioned that I voted for Carter to demonstrate that I did not vote straight ticket. I used it as an example..
You followed that with a post that went something along the line that voting for him was my Second mistake. My first mistake being obvious.
But now you are supporting him.
Could you please make up your mind...Did I make a mistake in voting for Carter or didn't I?

[Phillip Allen]

Perhaps you've forgotten. Clinton was acquitted of all charges for which he was impeached.

O. J. was aquitted also

[S.V. Airlie]

Well we can't give Clinton the glove test and we can't give O.J., the DNA test off the dress.:eek::eek:

[High C]

O. J. was aquitted also

Corrupt juries are a major problem.

[ljb5]

Could you please make up your mind...Did I make a mistake in voting for Carter or didn't I?

You said you made a mistake voting for Carter.

You said you made a mistake voting for Bush.

[S.V. Airlie]

you say so.. actually you said it but I'm sure it sliipped your mind. The reason I mentioned voting for him and your respense was well,surprising to me. It stuck in my mind as being a strange response from you. Hence, it stood out...
But ya know what.. I know.. and down inside you know.. so we will leave it at that... There feel better...

[ljb5]

O. J. was aquitted also


Funny you should feel that way after John Hardiman just gave that rousing lecture about "innocent until proved guilty in a court of law."

The fact is, Clinton was acquitted of all charges for which he was impeached. The majority of the senate at the time was Republicans.

Get over it.

[Phillip Allen]

ill-jay...I accuse you of re-directing the conversation away from your guilty god...you did NOT miss the point but are pretending to have done so...which I interpret as a kind of lie...one which you are practiced at...

Now you may re-direct again because you will not address the point (and thereby acknowledge it)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Firrip, keep it up - you're on a troll.

[ljb5]

ill-jay...I accuse you of re-directing the conversation away from your guilty god...you did NOT miss the point but are pretending to have done so...which I interpret as a kind of lie...one which you are practiced at...

Now you may re-direct again because you will not address the point (and thereby acknowledge it)

Not quite sure what you mean, Phillip.

I'm not really sure this conversation had a specific point to being with.... but Few's C&P rant certainly re-directed the conversation away from whatever it was.

Threads drift. Oh well. Get over it.

As you know, Clinton was acquitted by the Republican-dominated Senate. For the record.... yes, Clinton got a blow job and lied about.... (or at least made serioulsy misleading statements.) No, I don't think that was the right thing to do.... but I got over it years ago. You should too.

Reagan was accused of rape, Ford pardoned Nixon, Nixon resigned in disgrace, Reagan traded arms to Islamofacists and supported Central American drug dealers, Bush Sr. pardoned Elliott Abrams, Duane R. Clarridge, Alan Fiers, Clair George, Robert C. McFarlane, and Caspar W. Weinberger.... Bush Jr. lied to the American people and started an unnecessary war.....

....and Clinton got a blow job.

[S.V. Airlie]

Reagan was accused of rape,

Was that with Bonzo? I knew there was something funky going on between those two..

[Phillip Allen]

"Not quite sure what you mean, Phillip."

Remnicent of "I don't recall", "I'm not sure" and "I did NOT have sex with that woman...and it wasn't sex anyway"