Dory Question

[bluewatermd]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this site, and this is my first post here. Anyway, I have been contemplating building a boat for some time now, and recently got a copy of "Boatbuilding with Plywood" by Glen L Witt. Currently I am looking plans for my first boat (well first boat made by me), preferably plywood with a fiberglass skin. I really like the Grand Banks style dories, and they look relatively simple to build. I have come across a design I like at http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_gbdories.html. It is the 17' Texan. I have a few questions before I start.

1. Has anyone used plans from spirainternational before? How are they?
2. Does anyone have any suggestions on similar dory plans that might be better? (plywood construction, 16-19', small outboard motor)
3. I want a dory capable of handling a small outboard. Do you think this design allows for enough clearance to lift the motor out of the water for shallow water applications? If not, could it be modified to do so? If I can't modify the hull, I could always use a jackplate, but would rather not if possible.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

[kenjamin]

Get a copy of the "Dory Book" by John Gardner
http://www.amazon.com/Dory-Book-John-Gardner/dp/0913372447/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0797061-2652155?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179776407&sr=1-1
It will answer questions about dories you haven't even thought of yet. There are detailed drawings of motor wells for dories in the book. Be warned, however, that you may have to build the Alpha-Beachcomber dory after seeing it and if you do build it, you have to take me for a sail.;)

[bluewatermd]

The alpha beachcomber is one of my favorite designs. I am hawever planning on using the dory mainly for fishing, some of which will be done standing up. I don't know if the alpha is up to this task. Additionally, I am looking for a boat with simple plywood sides. I like the lapstrake sides, but not for my first project.

I hear great reviews about the Dory Book. I will definetly get a copy.

[Thorne]

You will see this reflected in other's advice, but the best thing to do is completely specify your needs, your passengers, cargo, waters, storage (in water or trailered), etc.

THEN you can pick a boat design and materials to match your needs. Otherwise we will all spend a lot of time and typing trying to fit the puzzle together.

I own a Chamberlain dory skiff and have owned several ply sailboats and a Banks dory. None of them worth a damn with an outboard. You can put an outboard in a well in a large dory, but must love it dearly as it will be roaring right in your ear, and often splashing water up into the boat.

My boats were all carefully designed to carry specific loads in certain types of water condtions -- and did it well. Trying to make them do anything different was an exercise in frustration and often dangerous.


Without knowing anything more, my recommendation would be to build a dory skiff as shown in Gardner's _The Dory Book_, as they handle a mix of water conditions well with a small outboard. But much depends on how many passengers you wish to carry and if you will use it offshore or only in the duckpond...

;0 )

[Tar Devil]

I have some plans from Spira. I have a few issues with them, but probably no more than I would have from anyone else. He's great to chat with and will readily answer emails.

My biggest complaint is with some of the boats he calls "stitch and glue." They really aren't... they are framed boats with glass fillets to boot.

[Bruce Hooke]

What Thorne said!

A Banks Dory is a poor choice if you plan to use anything but the smallest of trolling motors. There is so little width aft that if you try to go much faster than rowing speed the bow just lifts up and the stern drops and you create a huge wake, all of which wastes much of the thrust of the motor. If you don't need the seaworthiness of a Banks Dory there are also easier boats to row than a traditional Banks Dory, but a lightweight plywood one should be nice enough to row. I suspect you'd also appreciate a boat with more initial stability than a Banks Dory if you plan to fish standing up. It is very hard to tip over a Banks Dory, but you have to tip it a bit for the stability to start to kick in, so the initial impression of a Banks Dory is likely to be that it feels tippy.

[rbgarr]

A better choice for standing and outboard use might be a garvey type of motorboat. Just as simple to build as a dory and more suitable for an outboard motor. http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400%2D126

[Thad Van Gilder]

Welcome bluewatermd!

Where in Jersey are you? My shop is down near Ocean City. I have a banker in frame outside, waiting on funding.

I dunno if I would want a banks dory... have you ever seen one in the water?

-Thad

[Nick C]

You don't have to have a well in a Dory for the motor. Look at drift boat designs (Rogue River Drift Boat is a classic). The large Pacific City style dories had inside wells for the motors in the 60's and were mostly double enders.

Later you started to see flat transoms more and more with internal motor wells. This evolved to rear mounted engines. I built a large dory with a well. It is handy to pee out of and untangle stuff from the prop, but I think the rear transom mounted engine is a better deal.

In your case I am guessing that you want to row. So, you need to decide between a rough water (Rogue type) or a smooth water dory. The Rogue River Dory has lots of rocker to make turning easy and help get the boat over shallow gravel banks. The standard dory is flat bottomed to make it more efficient to row and motor. It will handle shallow areas in lakes and slower water.

The flat bottom is a definite disadvantage in the wind or any situation where waves or swell is involved as it is bouncy hard slappy ride. Conversly the flat bottom is a rocket in flat water.

The hard part for you is to get over your romantic ideas (been there) of the boat you want to build and seriously decide where, when and how you want to use it. Then let the conditions dictate the boat you build. The dory your looking at is going to be mostly a one maybe two person boat and good in fairly calm situations for fishing or short hauls. If the wind comes up it will be a rough wet ride and tough to row into the wind.

[neilm]

It's probably best to decide now if you want to row or use a motor and not try to do both. Dory's are best for rowing and Semi Dorys are best for motors. Lots of good Semi Dory designs documented by John Gardner. Personally, I prefer rowing. No noise or smell and the action of rowing imparts extra action to your fly or lure. I like to put my fly rod in a rod holder off to the side and alternate each oar when I row to give the rod extra action. Use short oars for fishing so they don't get in the way.

Neil

[Thorne]

The hard part for you is to get over your romantic ideas (been there) of the boat you want to build and seriously decide where, when and how you want to use it.

Nick - I suspect that ALL of us have been there!

;0 )

You see a great design, or get seduced by a lovely sheerline or wineglass transom, and then you decide, "This is the boat for me!"...

...however it later turns out to be not quite the thing for what you do, where you do it, and who you have in the boat.

The trick is to harden your heart and take a hard look at the exact purpose, cargo, propulsion, and sailing waters -- then pick the boat to match.

So I'll ask again, how many people, what primary propulsion, what waters, and how stored (in water or on trailer)? We know you want to stand to fish and possibly row for primary propulsion with an outboard backup -- both of which put the Banks dory at the bottom of the list, I'm afraid.

[bluewatermd]

Thanks for the advice everyone. If it helps I want to use the boat mainly for fishing (myself and sometimes one other person). I am planning to motor the boat, and possibly use a push pole in the shallows. The boat will be used mainly in calm water, but with the occasional crossing through a channel/small bay. I am not looking to go fast (maybe 10mph) and would like to use a motor 10-25hp depending on the boat. The boat will be stored on a trailer when not in use. As for standing, it would be only in very shallow calm water, and I have stood on some very tippy flats boats (like the gheenoe - http://www.gheenoe.net/fifteensix_classic.html).

I will definitely take a look at the boats everyone is suggestion. I am seeing that the banks may not be for me.

And to Thad: I live in the Toms River area, and do most of my boating on the barnegat bay. I have spent a considerable amount of time in Ocean City. It is a great place, except for the fact that you have to drove over the bridge for a beer. They have some great fishing along the sod banks down there though.

[L.W. Baxter]

Those drawings from Spira are very strange. The "Texan" you refer to shows an absolutely straight bottom. I don't know what it is, but a banks dory it is not.

A banks dory should have a pronounced rocker to the bottom. The biggest development of the type is the St. Pierre Dory, ~27' long and shaped like a giant banana. That shape has numerous real purposes, and while it limits motoring speeds, any dory of proper size will take a motor and be just the thing for low power, low-key motoring about. I've got a Swampscott ( a knuckle-sided dory developed for oar and sail) myself with an outboard in a well, and I wouldn't change it in any way. The only situation in which it is less than perfectly graceful is motoring against a strong current. So I generally don't do that.

My guess is that Spira's "Texan" has a flat bottom in an attempt to make it power a little faster. But the cold truth is it will never plane very well or with any stability. And the complete lack of rocker robs it of it's natural burdensome, seakindly nature, amongst other things. So what you will have is a "banks dory" that isn't a banks dory that doesn't do anything particularly well. That same basic boat with the natural amount of rocker could be just fine, though, depending on what you like. As Kenjamin says, get Gardner's book and build the boat that turns you on.

[pipefitter]

Don't let the lapstrake sides fool you. The Simmons is a dory type with a vee. There is no spiling of the planks. They are straight cuts.One side of the plank is straight and the opposite edge is a straight line taper. I planked mine in a weekend. Slab sided boats are not always easier to build,especially when working alone. The lapstrake is also easier to fair and paint with a brush than a slab side is. The Simmons 18 is a great boat for a 25hp motor and can be built a few different ways. The motor noise in the well boats is irrelevant being that most modern motors exhaust underwater. I have not noticed this to be any louder than other boats.

As far as standing up fishing,I can throw an 8ft cast net from the front raised deck of my boat without stumbling or a balancing act. I can stand on the foredeck on the very front of the boat while fishing when it is calm out. The boat pushpoles very easily and I suspect would row pretty well also.

Total weight of the hull as I built it was 339 lbs or around 620 rigged and fueled.

Check out www.simmonsseaskiff.com or you can see my build at http://home.earthlink.net/~tigmaster41/

[James McMullen]

Many new boatbuilders are seduced by the idea of a banks dory because it looks like it would be easy to build, with its flat sides and all. It is sorta easy to build, comparatively, which is what they were originally built for: an inexpensive, replaceable, more-or-less disposable, fisherman's tool that could--when the thwarts were taken out-- be stacked up like dixie cups on the deck of a schooner. They sacrifice quite a bit of performance for the sake of that simplified, easy-to-build shape. Though they are certainly an interesting part of our cultural heritage, a banks-type dory isn't really a very good all-around boat, especially for the use you are describing.

Amongst the banks dory's relatives there are definitely better boats for recreational rowing such as the more complex and sophisticated shapes of the swampscott dories, the dory-skiffs, and the wherries. The semi-dory is another relative that is greatly more suited to handling an outboard motor than a banks-type dory. There are some pretty nice rowing dory designs out there that are modern adaptations of the banks dory modified for plywood construction and recreational payloads such as Phil Bolger's Gloucester Gull Light Dory. That boat is strictly a rowboat, though, and Bolger has famously refused to assist anyone putting either a sailing rig or an outboard motor on this design, saying, “It’s possible to rig this boat to sail, and to mount an outboard motor. She will be a poor performer under sail, worse under power, and will be more or less degraded for rowing in each case. Designer won’t cooperate in the process.” Bolger has elsewhere commented on how modifying the dory to make it a better sailboat or motorboat usually ends up so far from being like the original that you probably would have been better off starting from a different type of boat to begin with.

The super simple dory form can be used sucessfully for somewhat disposable boats (the whitewater drift boat, for example) where cheapness of building is more important than performance. These simplified, boxy shapes are definite compromises however, and are easily beaten on all sorts of performance criteria from strength-to-weight ratios, wetted surface area, stability curves, slapping and pounding, handling characteristics and so on by any of the more sophisticated boat shapes. Do you just want something easy to build, or do you want a really good boat? All of the boat designs I see on that Spira International site seem very much to be slanted towards cheap-o and simplified as the primary consideration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . not my cup of tea at all!


(Like Thorne, I also built that 13' Chamberlain dory-skiff from Gardner's Dory Book years ago--a nice little sail & oar boat. That book is a treasure!)

[Thad Van Gilder]

You know man, 2 monkeys and a retarded child can build a cedar garvey in a long weekend, with no plywood or fiberglass...

I figure there is maybe 300 dollars in cedar, fasteners, and paint in a 15 foot garvey.

The last one I built ran was completed in about 3 days. (with oil inside and paint outside.)

-Thad

[Thad Van Gilder]

BTW Bluewater,
I can be found at Caroline's in Somer's Point most weekends...

My 1923 Cutter, IVY is morred across the street.

-Thad

[Tom Hunter]

There are two things that a banks dory does better than just about any boat you could think of.

Stack
But you only want one boat, so this is not important

Hold hundreds of pounds of fish.
Just how ambitious a fisherman are you?:D

If you don't really need these things then some of the other suggestions in the thread are worth looking at.

[SaltyD from BC]

I'm not quite sure when a dory becomes a skiff, or a skiff becomes a dory.. But my limited experience with this kind of boat was a 15' "Diablo" (doryish) skiff by H. Payson.

http://www.instantboats.com/diablo.htm

I didn't build it but I pretty much completely rebuilt it as although the original builder epoxy glass'd the ouside of the hull the interior was just painted. Then neglected, allowed to fill up with rain water, and rot started in the transom and bulkheads. If you don't mind this 'stich and goo' way of building this might be a decent first build to consider. As a rookie rebuilding it I found it a pretty easy system to use.

I put a 15 horse 4 Stroke Suzuki on it and it went like a scalded cat with just me in it on a calm day. (Over 20 knots) Not very comfortable at speed on a choppy day though. I was out in nasty weather in it quite a few times and at hull speed it was quite safe and comfortable for its size. For some reason that little skiff was a fishy little bugger - like I seemed to catch a pile of fish in it for what ever reason..

Anyways I gave it to a younger neighbour and his family with two small kids and they've enjoyed it too. I see its full of rain water again. :rolleyes: Oh well, its epoxy glassed all over now so maybe she'll be all right...

[SaltyD from BC]

Oh ya, and like others have said get John Gardner's 'the Dory Book'. Even if you don't ever build a boat from it its a wealth of information and just a great read anyways...

[bluewatermd]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. It is really appreciated. I am really starting to like the 18' simmons sea skiff. It seems as though it has the features I am looking for, and is beautiful as well (if i am going to put in all the time, effort, $$$ to build a boat, it better look nice).

[SawmillBrook]

Blue, I've been in your waters, which are similar to mine up here in RI. Sometimes when the tide, wind and waves are just right the bay produces moguls ; )

I spent a year looking for the perfect boat design, and I was fortunate to find it. Here it is on Devlin's site. It's incredibly safe, fast, turns on a dime and rugged. I push pole it all the time in 7" deep water.

I overbuilt the hell out of it and wish I didn't in retrospect. My fillets are huge and I added too many stringers. I probably added 80 or more pounds to the design. But, when I'm coming down the side of a 5 footer in the middle of the winter, it remains stiff.

It's a darker color now and I have a dodger on her. Fly fishing from the front deck is very comfortable. Note the poor man's center console I built in. Can anyone guess what it started out life as 110 years ago?

Good luck in your search and have fun.

http://www.devlinboat.com/homebuiltgibson.htm

[Bruce Hooke]

I'm not quite sure when a dory becomes a skiff, or a skiff becomes a dory.

Traditionally it had to do with construction method. On a dory the bottom planks ran lengthwise and were the starting point for the building the boat, on a skiff the bottom planks ran cross-wise and were attached to the side planks after they had been bent into position. With plywood boats a lot of this does not apply so the general rule seems to be to base the name on which style of boat the design most resembles...so a boat shaped like a traditional dory is called a dory and a boat shaped like a traditional skiff is called a skiff. This gets messy with dory-skiffs, which were traditionally built dory-style but are shaped pretty much like a traditional skiff. In that case I guess you call it whatever you feel like calling it!

[kenjamin]

Yo Bluewater,

My first boat build was a dory. It was so tippy that I made a pontoon for it and made it into a proa. It became a good little boat after that but took some time at the launch to put the thing together. My second boat was a dory/skiff of my own design that I fished out of for seventeen years and it always did well even in the worst conditions. Because it had rocker along its entire length, it was more of a sailboat than a motor skiff although it did have a wide enough flat bottom to stand up and cast. Most times my fishin' buddy and I used the motor, a 2.5 Evinrude, but also took the sail along in case the motor failed.

When my dear mom passed, she left me enough money to build my ultimate fishing/sailing boat. Like you, I wanted it to look great when it was finished because there is no telling when I'll get to build another. I went through several designs (Jacque Mertens' Adelie, David Roberts' San Juan Dory, and the Alpha dory described by John Gardner in his book) before finally choosing the Caledonia Yawl by Iain Oughtred. The roots of the CY are that of a Shetland fishing boat and I really liked its looks. I'm not a very good boat builder but Xena has turned out well enough. I chose a 4HP Yamaha for the power plant and I figure she can go all day long at 5 mph on just a few gallons of gas. Of course when the wind kicks up, the motor will be pulled and stored and we will set sail. Because my loud-mouthed fishin' buddy used to complain about the mast being in the way of our fishing, I designed and built a mast that is sort of sickle shaped to curve out of his way when stored. I gave the idea to Florida State University and we have a provisional patent pending on the idea. My plan is to complete my latest curved mast for my almost complete CY and show it all at the Mystic Seaport WoodenBoat Show June 29th.

Anyway, I've said all that to say this:

Take your time in deciding on your design. It's really the most fun (and lowest cost) part of boat building. Consider all aspects of the boating experience – how easy it will be to set up and launch, how well will it trailer, how much gas will it use, how seaworthy, how comfortable, can it row, can it sail, what will you do when the motor fails, and for gosh sake's, if you want to stand up and cast – don't build a dory. Personally, if I can build a Caledonia Yawl, anyone with a good amount of patience can build one too.

[Bruce Hooke]

Overbuilt? What wrong with that?
I would overbuilt too, don't want it to fall apart in crashing waves

There are a few things wrong with overbuilding. It makes the boat heavier, which may make the boat handle less well and will certainly make it harder to move around, launch, haul, etc. It would be reasonable to put up with these down sides if it was necessary to build a safe boat, but it's not. First off, it seems to me that it is exceedingly rare for small boats to fall apart as a result of crashing waves. Second, it is the designer's job to design a boat that will survive the kinds of conditions that the boat is expected to encounter. So, I would say follow the designer's plans unless:

1. You plan to use the boat in significantly harsher conditions than it was designed for (in which case you should also consider whether the modified boat is sufficiently seaworthy in an overall sense for the waters you plan to use it in).

2. You have good reason to believe that the designer under-designed the boat.

On the other side of the coin, an example of a type of beefing things up that might make sense is if you know you will be using the boat on a rocky shoreline then extra protection for the chines might make sense.

My basic point is that beefing things up overall, in a major way, is likely to produce a worse boat not a better boat, and may even produce a less safe boat because the boat may not handle as well.

[Bruce Hooke]

When a dory become a skiff... You take a dory design, and widen the transom almost as wide as the beam, its become a dory-skiff...

I thought that was pretty much what I was saying...

[SawmillBrook]

There are a few things wrong with overbuilding. It makes the boat heavier, which may make the boat handle less well and will certainly make it harder to move around, launch, haul, etc. It would be reasonable to put up with these down sides if it was necessary to build a safe boat, but it's not. First off, it seems to me that it is exceedingly rare for small boats to fall apart as a result of crashing waves. Second, it is the designer's job to design a boat that will survive the kinds of conditions that the boat is expected to encounter. So, I would say follow the designer's plans unless:

1. You plan to use the boat in significantly harsher conditions than it was designed for (in which case you should also consider whether the modified boat is sufficiently seaworthy in an overall sense for the waters you plan to use it in).

2. You have good reason to believe that the designer under-designed the boat.

On the other side of the coin, an example of a type of beefing things up that might make sense is if you know you will be using the boat on a rocky shoreline then extra protection for the chines might make sense.

My basic point is that beefing things up overall, in a major way, is likely to produce a worse boat not a better boat, and may even produce a less safe boat because the boat may not handle as well.

Bruce:

Since this is a wooden boat forum, I'll explain what mods I made and why. It was all done by instinct with zero basis other than safety and personal comfort. I'm not an engineer, I'm a civilian and novice who aspires to build a wooden sail boat and learn how to sail it ; )

1) I made the outboard keels longer to reach the bow. Result: Glad I did, I am in waves all the time min 18" - 48". The boat turns on a dime, which is important when in those conditions. Plus, the end of the outboard keels will not hit the trailer beams when rolling on.

2) I increased the transom degrees from 8 (plans) to about 14 degrees. Result, I use reverse a lot picking up decoys and I'd rather ride over waves than crash into them. Glad I made that mod.

3) I built the coaming into the bulkheads (notched) instead of just laying it on the deck with thickened epoxy. I thought it would be stronger. The 9' long cockpit is fairly open and the mod added stiffness and strength. Result: I don't have a single crack anywhere in the boat.

4) Sole (floor): I fillet'd the floor in. I liked the "truss effect", tying the hull and stringers and floor together in a ... truss. I wanted a stiff boat. Fat fillets around the edges, lots of epoxy.

5) I built a shelf to sit on in the stern. I actually stand 100% of the time whilst underway holding on to my farmer's scythe but the boat is so stable (the rocker is right in the middle of the boat) that it's there for confidence only.

6) the cockpit "bulkheads" were supposed to be small and land on the hull. I joined the port and starboard bulkheads and made them one. It took a long time, but I'm glad I did as I heard that others in other designs had cracks where their bulkheads meet the hull. I figured that the 3/8ths plywood hull would oil can slightly and all that stress would produce cracks eventually. I didn't want that.

I figured I added at least 80 lbs to the 300 lb boat. But, the 40 hp Honda moves it right along and the boat is still much lighter than production glass boats. I'm fairly certain that it's lighter than aluminum boats of the same length.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd shrink my fillets, especially around the cockpit sole. But I'd keep the mods.

The boat is awesome. If anyone wants to check it out, I live in RI. I mean who here doesn't like to show off their boat? ;)

Best to all, A.

[erster]

http://www.devlinboat.com/homebuiltgibson5.jpg

Awesome!! job,,,,

[Bruce Hooke]

Sawmillbrook,

Thanks for the detailed response. I won't try to go into each modification. I just have a few random thoughts:

Many of your modifications seem targeted either at specific issues that have arisen with previous boats built to this design or targeted at dealing with particular aspects of how you use the boat, both of which are good reasons for making modifications as long as you understand the implications of the modifications. Other of the modifications added little weight and just added some building time, so there there was no reason not to do them if you felt like it.

In some cases I do wonder if your conclusions (e.g., the boat turns on a dime), are unrelated to or even in spite of the modifications you made. For example, in general, longer keels would tend to increase rather than decrease resistance to turning. However, the forward ends of the outboard keels are so far out of the water that they probably do not have any real impact on turning radius. Similarly, your conclusion that "I don't have a single crack anywhere in the boat" as a result of the way you built the coaming could mean two things. If other boats built to this design have had problems with cracking near the coaming then the designer clearly got it wrong and you were right to beef things up in this area. If other boats have not had cracking problems in this area then your modification presumably was not necessary to prevent cracking.

My original comment was more directed the people who beef up everything (increasing all the scantlings, etc.) on the boat for no really good reason other than that they somehow think stronger must always be better. Doing what you did, which was to use more time consuming but stronger construction methods is in general a good way to build a better boat!

In the end the key thing is that the boat works well for you! That's what really matters.

[TerryLL]

Hey Bluewatermd. You might take a look at the 16' San Juan Dory in Forty Wooden Boats, designed by Dave Robers of Nexus Marine. Nexus also has designs for a 21' and a 23'. These boats are elegant and simple and are highly regarded in the PNW.

The Banks dory is very tender when lightly built and unloaded but excells when heavily constucted and loaded down a strake or two. I sailed a 23' Cape Ann dory from Seattle to Alaska a few decades ago and can attest the boat saved my ignorant butt on several occasions.

But if you are interested in a general purpose power skiff, I would recommend a dory-skiff with the outboard on the transom, for all the reasons already mentioned.

The best, Terry

[pipefitter]

The handle sticking off the side looks like that of a scythe.

Great looking boat sawmillbrook.

[SawmillBrook]

Thanks Erster and Bruce.

No the boat did not have a history of cracking. Not many of this design had been built when I built it. However it's sister boat had a history along one of the bulkheads (two boats that I knew of).

The boat does turn on a dime, the outboards help in wavy conditions when I need to turn away from a breaking wave, etc. As you can see the freeboard is only about 18", so it's a lot of fun to steer - standing up.

All of my mods were new to this design and to my knowledge I have never seen my mods in any other boat by this designer. I came up with them as I went about the business of building. I spent countless hours standing and staring at the stupid thing thinking how I can make it better for my purposes.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread, it's just that the original poster's needs matched the characteristics of the boat that I built ergo my original post.

Next up, a sail boat.

[SawmillBrook]

Pipe, it is a scythe. An old farmer gave it to me. It is mounted on the side of the boat and curves in precisely where I stand and steer. I call it my poor man's center console.

[pipefitter]

I edited to add that you have a great looking boat, sawmillbrook. I like it. It looks salty with the generous sheerdeck.