Army Medical Report

[Keith Wilson]

I'm going to post this link without much comment. It's a .pdf of the report of the Army Medical Department's Mental Health Advisory Team. They've done a pretty extensive study of US soldiers in Iraq. I suggest reading the section entitled "Battlefield Ethics", pp 34-42. I don't know how this compares with soldiers in other times or places, but some of the responses surprised me. Occupying a country like Iraq is difficult at best.

http://www.armymedicine.army.mil/news/mhat/mhat_iv/MHAT_IV_Report_17NOV06.pdf

[Keith Wilson]

In what way did their behavior/answers surprise you? Do you think they are doing well, holding their own or not doing well? Sincere question.Most OK, a significant minority not. 17% agreed with "All noncombatants should be treated as insurgents" 60% of Marines said they wouldn't report a member of their unit for "injuring or killing an innocent noncombatant" . 36% say that torture should be allowed "in order to gather imprtant information about insurgents."

I can see how circumstances would make someone think like that - hell, I might think that way myself if I were there and had been shot at enough - but there's a significant minority I sure wouldn't want occupying my country if I were an Iraqi.

Like I said, an occupation of a hostile country's not easy.

What did you think?

[Norman Bernstein]

Figure 18 is pretty depressing.... and seems to indicate that discipline is genuinely pitiful in both the Army and the Marines. I have to admit I was surprised by this.... I thought discipline, especially in the Marines, was really high... I guess different people have different interpretations of what discipline means.

[Norman Bernstein]

Ever do things that werent disciplined before the age of 21 Norman?

Lots of them... but, then again, I didn't spend six months in basic training, nor did I take additional training for operating as a soldier in a war zone. You wouldn't really expect a US soldier to be as undisciplined as the typical under-21 civilian, would you?


For the most part they are highly disciplined people doing there best.

The report cited here would argue with that.... 'for the most part' would imply that most of them have the discipline... when the research shows that most don't. That's the part I find surprising. You suggest that war itself means the ROE get bent.... which sort of argues about the utility of having ROE's at all, doesn't it?

I'm not surprised that some percentage of soldiers would bend the ROE in the heat of combat... but the survey was of the attitudes of soldiers not in the midst of combat... i.e., their attitude about the propriety of the ROE's themselves, upon reflection. It would be different if the prevailing sober opinion was largely in conformance with the ROE, even if, in the heat of battle, the rules were not always followed.

[Keith Wilson]

It seems unrealistic for soldiers, who are being used as police yet are not trained as police, to consistently show prudent judgement while under a microscope. I quite agree. You'd think somebody would have thought about that in advance, maybe? The study wan't putting them "under a microscope", FWIW; it was just an anonymous survey.
They are people. For the most part they are highly disciplined people doing their best. Blame the leadership at the highest level. I'm sure that's true, and I do blame the leadership. I doubt I'd do any better myself in that situation.