Whine about the cost of bronze fasteners

[Thorne]

Not that I'm spending a fraction of what others on this forum are forking out for silicone bronze stuff, but I'm just personally hitting a bit of a wall on trying to keep my boat 'pure' with compatible metals.

I know that it's just a day-sailed dinghy, and the metals don't matter that much, but starting to ignore that sort of thing (and the advice here) is a slippery slope -- probably ending with CDX ply, sheetrock screws, tube glues and bad paint..

;0 )


THE WHINE:

I need two 5" 5/16's carriage bolts for my new bowsprit.

Hamilton's price is just over $8/bolt-

CARRIAGE BOLT BRONZE .31X5.00 W/O NUT 25/BOX 110303
FASTENERS (http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/2,342.html) / BOLTS (http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/2,270.html)
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Item #: F-CB.31X05.00
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http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/graphics/wishlist.gif (http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/favorites.htm?action=additem&itemid=3492&destination_page_url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore%2Ehamilton marine%2Ecom%2Fbrowse%2Ecfm%2Fbrowse%2Ecfm%2F4%2C3 492%2C270%2Ehtm) Favorites (http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/favorites.htm?action=additem&itemid=3492&destination_page_url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore%2Ehamilton marine%2Ecom%2Fbrowse%2Ecfm%2Fbrowse%2Ecfm%2F4%2C3 492%2C270%2Ehtm)
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Your Price: $170.59 / BOX http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/graphics/spacer.gif
Unit:
EACH ($8.03)BOX ($170.59)100C ($682.35) http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/graphics/spacer.gif
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Bronze, carriage bolt without nut.

So for two bolts that's $16, say $17 with nuts and washers. $10 shipping brings the grand total to $27.

Orchard Supply Hardware's price is $1.99 for a box of 4 hot-dipped galvanized 5" carriage bolts, nuts included.

My math skills aren't skills at all, but I'd guess that to be nearly 13 times the difference in price between minimal-quality HDG and decent-quality Silicone Bronze fasteners.

I'm adding in the shipping 'cause I can't find SB bolts that size and length here locally.

Since I can't quite bring myself to spend that much for two bloody bolts, I'll use the HDG and keep my options open for a later order when I need something more from Hamiltons.

[Gold Rock]

I feel your pain. Ingot silicon bronze has gone from $2.74 lb. to $4.67 lb. in just two years. You're the victim of a double whammy. First, economies of scale. If there was a demand for 5 x 5/16 sil. brz. carriage bolts by the box car load in every city in the country like there is for the plated steel jobs, they wouldn't be eight bucks a pop either. Second, the price of copper is going up faster than the price of gasoline. Still worth it though. Go for those bronzies. You'll never have to think about them again; you'll never have to look at rust stains; you'll love the longing, surreptitious glances that people will give them, and you'll just dig knowing they're there.

[Clyderigged]

Thorne

Check your private messages.

Clutha Fecit

[epoxyboy]

Or go for 316 stainless. This is a dinghy, they wont fail and leave you in mortal peril in the middle of the Southern Ocean. In fact, I'd go the galvanised route. Pull them out once a year and have a look-see if you're really paranoid - I bet they last for years.

Pete

[Thorne]

Right, I should have put the price for SS as that's actually the only other fastener type I'd consider using -- in fact have used, as my centerboard pin is a large SS bolt. Everything else in the boat is bronze or copper, however.

I'll get the price for the bolts in SS and then we'll have a real comparison -- but the 13x more for bronze was a shocker for me so I had to post it.

I rarely feel 'buyer's remorse' for any boat-related purchases, but the last order of bronze bolts from Hamilton got my knickers in a serious twist!

;0 )

[Canoeyawl]

There is a reasonable and reliable supplier of bronze and copper fasteners in San Francisco.
R J Leahy and company (since 1928)
http://www.rjleahy.com/

[bott]

Make you own bolts! Its so satisfying!

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=55795&highlight=homemade+bolts

I got 1/4" Silly-bronze rod for really cheap from Alaska Copper and Brass... then just get a box of nuts and cut 'em.

Or make the fancy LFH bolt making jig described in the above thread.

[Thorne]

Canoeyawl -

I couldn't find any silicon bronze carriage bolts at the Leahy site -- what is the URL for them?

[Canoeyawl]

Call them on the phone...
They are old school, nice folks - 800-514-4106

[waters'l]

Or, have you looked at Svendsen's? I have gotten quite a few large carraige bolts for them for stem and chainplate repairs. It won't cost you in shipping.

[JimD]

I used galvanized to secure the bowsprit. I am not ashamed and I don't care what people say...

[dmede]

I hear ya, all my SB is coming from Jamestown Distributors. Seem slike prices jumped quite a but between my last build and this one. Also I think they may have reduced the number of sizes and types thwy will sell "each" and force you to buy more full boxes of the stuff.

FWIW, most of the plans I have seen from both Atkin and Gardner spec galvinized hardware for bolts, rings, pad eyes etc. They seemed to like it just fine.

[SV Papillon]

Make you own bolts! Its so satisfying!

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=55795&highlight=homemade+bolts

I got 1/4" Silly-bronze rod for really cheap from Alaska Copper and Brass... then just get a box of nuts and cut 'em.

Or make the fancy LFH bolt making jig described in the above thread.

I called Alaskan copper last week for a quote on silocon bronze plate. a 2'x12' sheet of16 ga was $600.00 and the real shocker a 4' x 12' of 1/8" was $3100.00:eek: :eek:

Jake


ON the fatsner end

Fisheries Supply (http://www.fisheriessupply.com/online/Default.asp/cookietest/1) and Tacoma Screw (http://tacomascrew.com/) are worth a try.

[Thorne]

Yeah, looked at Svenson's -- nothing that thin & that long...darn!

Dmede, try Hamiltons, as they will sell ya single fasteners and not insist on selling the whole box the way Jamestown does. But shipping miminums are around $10 no matter what...

[Jim Ledger]

Niiiice piece of bronze plate 1/8 x12 x12 for the bobstay fitting...$96.:eek:

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL441/8755859/16199889/251885068.jpg


Picture to post on the Forum...priceless:D

[rbgarr]

Did you see these on eBay? Perhaps a little short, but might work. Contact the auction winner or seller? http://tinyurl.com/2yshrh

[neilm]

I had the same reaction to SB Bolts. Crazy! I too thought of Hot Dipped Galv bolts but am concerned about electrolosis. Now I'm thinking of getting the biggest Copper Nails and Roves I can find instead or just use lots of S.B. Screws. Trunnels might be an option too.

Neil

[Thorne]

Nope, just finding myself unwilling to spend the money -- I have the money, just feel remorse at the darn price!

I'll do it sooner or later, just wanna whine about it now, OK?

;0 )

[Jay Greer]

If you don't mind making the set up, you can make your own Herreshoff style bronze fin headed bolts. All it takes is two blocks of mild steel that are clamped and drilled the next size under, for gripping the rod and a counter sunk recess in the blocks leaving the top equal to the head size of the bolt. With a die grinder cut wing recesses in the lower sides of the counter sunk hole on both sides of the blocks. Clamp the blocks and rod in a vise with enoungh rod protruding to be heated and pounded into the counter sunk hole and wing slots.
This produces a bolt that won't rotate in the hole and can be plugged over.
For a quarter inch bolt, the next drill size down is a letter B. That is actually a bit smaller but is safer for the grip if too tight go for a C or D. I use drill rod stock cross drilled in the blocks for easy, locator pin, alignment.
Jay

[Varna]

Thorne- Another option is to use BZ hex cap screws and file and shape into a dome head of your liking- like the carriage head. Bronze files and shapes very easily with new files. Of course there is no square section- but that strips out often anyway in softer woods and many tightening cycles. But for two bolts maybe the $10 diff isn't worth the bother- just a thought. Making the dies for forging your own is the best if you plan on more projects.

Another source for BZ,316SS etc in rod and sheet stock is MSC Industrial. They sell sheet in break down sizes and I have found them very reasonable and stock in Reno so close to bay area buyers.

[PeterSibley]

If you don't mind making the set up, you can make your own Herreshoff style bronze fin headed bolts. All it takes is two blocks of mild steel that are clamped and drilled the next size under, for gripping the rod and a counter sunk recess in the blocks leaving the top equal to the head size of the bolt. With a die grinder cut wing recesses in the lower sides of the counter sunk hole on both sides of the blocks. Clamp the blocks and rod in a vise with enoungh rod protruding to be heated and pounded into the counter sunk hole and wing slots.
This produces a bolt that won't rotate in the hole and can be plugged over.
For a quarter inch bolt, the next drill size down is a letter B. That is actually a bit smaller but is safer for the grip if too tight go for a C or D. I use drill rod stock cross drilled in the blocks for easy, locator pin, alignment.
Jay

I use Jay's method , but making up the template ,instead of using a smaller drill ...I space the 2 blocks with a strip of aluminiun can prior to drilling with a standard drill ..The result is good , the 2 sections close up on the rod very tightly .

I have been using 5/16 " copper for my bolts .It was the norm here in Australia for most of the last century .We were probably a little industrially backward 50 years ago and didn't have the selection of bronze alloys you blokes have .A normal East coast prawn trawler of say ,42 foot , would be all copper fastened with nothing over 1/2" .They didn't break .

Most bronzes are far stronger than you need .Copper is just fine and will even stretch if needs be .I tend to buy mine at the non ferrous scrap dealer , half normal price and there is usually a fair bit available in the smaller sizes via the electrical industry .

I made 60 fin heads bolts yesterday, could have made more but there were other jobs .

[Thorne]

Well, I expect that $8 for a SB bolt that size is a fair, competitive price -- Hamiltons seems to be good that way -- just hard to pay it when compared to SS or HDG fasteners.

Most of the fancy stuff I've been able to pick up at Marine Flea markets or eBay, including mast bands/cranse irons, whisker pole fittings, some bronze blocks, etc. But bolts and screws are usually more specific and I usually have to buy them new.

Again this is all small whiney stuff compared to people like the guy I met in April at the Encinal Yacht Club's flea market -- he's refastening a Folkboat and is buying zillions and zillions of very expensive copper and SB fasteners.

[Bob Smalser]

I know that it's just a day-sailed dinghy....

First, apply for a commercial account with a jobber like Tacoma Screw. You don't need a business license, just good credit. That account alone will get you anywhere from a 10% to a 30% price break. For a westerner to send off to Jamestown RI or Hamilton ME for hardware isn't an economical course of action.

Second, reconsider your choice of metals. I use only galvanized on fresh water boats and Tacoma Screw's galvanized is every bit as good the fabled old stuff. It's also a stronger and more easily driven fastener than either bronze or SS. It will last for many decades in a trailer boat in salt water and indefinitely in cold fresh water. SS will also work fine in a trailer boat, and there's no reason to spring for 316 either, although inexpensive 18-8 will probably show more rust staining in salt water than will hot-dipped galvanized. Countless professional builders use SS in warm-water, salt water boats from North Carolina to Florida with good results, and some of them contribute here regularly. In cold, SF Bay you'll do even better.

My main tree farm used to be a hunting camp in the late 1930's, and the original owners had two boats on its 5-acre pond, one still rotting in the brush and one still sunk in the pond. When I built the first boat to be used on that pond, I recovered what hardware I could from the sunken boat to use on its replacement for a bit of historical continuity. The galvanized items were still in good condition after over 50 years in cold fresh water, and even the non-galvanized oar locks were easily restorable.

We vastly overplay the need for bronze here.

[Thorne]

I hear you, Bob.

My problem was that I restored the boat and it already had all bronze or copper fasteners -- not that I probably wouldn't have gone the all-bronze route anyway just for 'yare-ness'...plus over half of my boating is in salt water or at least salty water (Bay, Delta and shoreside lagoons).

;0 )

Can you tell us how to do a quick test on HDG fasteners to see the quality -- can we scrape the finish and soak in saltwater or something?

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9745605/235531630.jpg

The zinc should be obviously thick and lumpy. And of course you only want the thick-shanked wood screws like the one on the left in a boat. The cheaper one on the right will always let in water.

Tacoma Screw also has decent bronze too, and with a commercial account cheaper than from New England.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5457882/142508284.jpg

[PeterSibley]

Something I forgot to mention , copper is the easiest metal to work ,ie peen to shape and cut threads in bar none .Just use a bit of cutting oil when cutting threads otherwise it will roll.

[carioca1232001]

Make you own bolts! Its so satisfying!

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=55795&highlight=homemade+bolts

I got 1/4" Silly-bronze rod for really cheap from Alaska Copper and Brass... then just get a box of nuts and cut 'em.

...........
.

A slight variation on your theme, is to whack the end of the SiBr rod after you have swirled on the SiBr nut, to ensure that it will not work its way out.

If you have a welder friend in the vicinity, have him gas-weld the nut-end with a dash of Silver Solder for good measure.