Another basic construction question:

[Donn]

Here's the pot ghetto, so far:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/donnwest/IMGP0808.jpg

I'm getting ready to install two diagonal braces on the back (canal side).

The braces will be 2x4's, and the question is, does it make a difference if they run low-to-high or high-to-low against the 4x4's?

In other words, do I make a V or a ^?

In even more other words, do I start the braces from the bottoms of the end posts and run to the top of the center post, or vice versa?

Or is there no difference?

And please include why, so I can learn something from this.

[Bob Smalser]

I'm getting ready to install two diagonal braces on the back (canal side).

The braces will be 2x4's, and the question is, does it make a difference if they run low-to-high or high-to-low against the 4x4's?

In other words, do I make a V or a ^?

In even more other words, do I start the braces from the bottoms of the end posts and run to the top of the center post, or vice versa?

Or is there no difference?

And please include why, so I can learn something from this.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3297171/72596304.jpg

What you intend to do is called a shear wall, and is generally a 1X4 that is let in or mortised into the plates and studs. They are always done as V's because you are bracing the substantial 3-stud corners from shear loads caused by wind on the adjacent walls, not the relatively weak center stud.

In your case of 4X posts with no plates, simply butt the ends of the braces together at the bottom of the center post. Mortises are stronger but are mostly done to make a flush surface for exterior sheathing, and aren't required.

[Honda_Shadow]

Honestly, if you install them like a "V" or like a "^" makes no difference since you've got multiple vertical 4x4's. There will be a weakness in any post that does not have a 2x4 connecting its top to the bottom of the post next to it, assuming a vertical load. If you want maximum racking prevention, you need to make "X" bracing out of the 2x4's. Just remember to notch the 2x4's together where they meet in the middle. OR, install one arm of the "X" on the front of the 4x4, and the other arm on the back of the 4x4, then there's no notching and you get the same effect.
I'm an architect, and that's the way I specify tall porch posts. It works.

[Donn]

Thanks, Colonel. V it shall be.

How about diagonals on the ends of the box? Bottom of canal-side post to top of front post?

There will be several more full-length 2x4's spanning the length, like the one on the top back.

[Popeye]

all those nailed diagonals are going to be ugly imo , and not required if you have very little wind load, why not use gussets and cut tenons if you wish to have them flush

it will look tidier than those long braces you plan on

[Donn]

There's a lot of wind, but since the enclosure will be clad with chicken wire and hardware fabric, little load. There will be more wind pressure on the nursery pots residing inside the enclosure on yet to be built shelves.

The bulk of the forces will be the weight of the pots.

[Bob Smalser]

The bulk of the forces will be the weight of the pots.

Until your 280lb neighbor decides to scratch his back on one of those corner posts. ;)

I'd put either shear braces as I describe or X-bracing at the back. Your horizontal shelving if fastened will take care of the rest.

But it's a good point thay any form of diagonals back there will be ugly, and except for your neighbor the open structure won't get a lot of shear load. Tusk tenon construction is an alternative to eliminate the bracing. It won't be as strong, but it may not need to be. I'd want two rails in back top and bottom made from 1X8 or 1X10 stock with lots of tenon shoulder, and two matching rails in front:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4775424/60398643.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4775424/60398412.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4775424/236059200.jpg

[Bruce Hooke]

Thanks, Colonel. V it shall be.

How about diagonals on the ends of the box? Bottom of canal-side post to top of front post?

There will be several more full-length 2x4's spanning the length, like the one on the top back.

That's the way I'd run them so that they are bracing the top of the front post, since the top of the back posts will already be braced by the back diagonals. Edited to add: but I agree with Bob that they probably are not necessary.

Unless you need them for shelving or for attaching the chicken wire or some other similar purpose, I would not bother with more horizontal 2x4's. I don't think they are needed from a strength perspective.

[Mrleft8]

Although the answer has been provided, let me expound for a moment..... If you used "^" instead of "v", the end posts would be essentially unbraced at their tops.
The ends probably don't need much bracing, but it wouldn't hurt to pop a few from the center of the cross piece on a 45 degree angle mitered and spiked into the verticals. (IE: "^" as oppsed to "\")

[JimD]

I designed and built this arbor for our yard. Small corner diagonals stiffens it up quite nicely - at least until Donn's neighbour decides to start swinging from it:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pfaabb589c41cd6e8764c235df7db88e6/ea1d65dd.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:viewExifData())

[Popeye]

looks better and will save you a little bit of lumber also

(nice jimd)

[JimD]

looks better and will save you a little bit of lumber also

(nice jimd)

Tanks, its been clear coated and hopefully by mid summer will be covered in climbing white roses.:)

[Donn]

The additional full-length 2x4's will be the basis of some of the shelving. They'll be covered with 1/2" hardware fabric. Each 'compartment' of the structure will have different spacing between shelves, to accomodate different sized pots/trays.

I still have to figure out chicken wire covered doors for the front.

I'm not overly concerned about the appearance of the structure. It's a temporary solution, and will eventually be replaced when the bulkhead/boardwalk is redone. It's going to be a transparent structure filled with ugly black nursery pots, anyway.

[Popeye]

Tanks, its been clear coated and hopefully by mid summer will be covered in climbing white roses.:)

cool , i am going to try a couple of hybrid grape vines this year

i got a don juan rose bush too , but swmbo telsl me i need a .. {something(?)} series , specially bred for canada

[Donn]

Probably Explorer or Parkland Series Roses. Both bred by AgCanada.

[Popeye]

explorer! , that be the one , supposed to last longer

[Donn]

Both series are extremely hardy, disease and insect resistant, and very long bloomers, if ya like long bloomers.

Pics and descriptions of all of them here. (http://www.canadianrosesociety.org/hardyroses/crs_hardy.html)

[Popeye]

i like long bloomers alright , the john cabot (http://www.canadianrosesociety.org/hardyroses/jcabot.html) looks nice

http://www.canadianrosesociety.org/hardyroses/hardyimages/jcabot1.gif

[katiedobe]

Wow did this thread digress or what!
I love it.

If it was me I would do the "x" bracing across the back as was stated before.

[Popeye]

donn appears to be bent on utility more than style , in which case , rough lumber and post and beam would be most efficient imo

dressed lumber with heavy (?) cross bracing has not really gone one way or the other in terms of utility , style nor efficiency , save ease of construction i suppose

[Bruce Hooke]

Rough lumber may not be the easiest thing to find down in Donn's area. I'd guess that it's a bit of a hike to the nearest sawmill...