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Phillip Allen
04-23-2007, 05:51 AM
Forced abortion up to (litteraly) days from birth. Hospitals full of the mothers of killed babies. It seems they missed some government stated birth-rate goal and it is being corrected on a local level.

From NPR

JimD
04-23-2007, 05:54 AM
I've heard the Chinese authorities like to control the dog population by beating them to death in the streets with clubs. For a culture that has contributed so much to the human race they sure can be inhumane at times. But can't we all I suppose.

Phillip Allen
04-23-2007, 05:56 AM
the public is not allowed to keep arms

Phillip Allen
04-23-2007, 05:57 AM
they also have no free access to the media

the media is state owned/controled

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 06:00 AM
Well, here's something else that China should not allow to get out of hand:

Catapult boy is eaten after taunting crocodile in pen

Jane Macartney in Beijing
A schoolboy who climbed over a fence into a crocodile enclosure and taunted the animals with sticks and a catapult was dragged into the water and eaten.

The nine-year-old, whose family name was given as Liu, and three friends sneaked into the crocodile park at the Silver Beach holiday resort at Beihai in the southwestern Guangxi region on Friday.

The children shot at the animals with catapults and beat them with sticks.

The official Xinhua news agency said: “One of the irritated crocodiles bit Liu’s clothes and dragged him into the water where he was eaten by a swarm of crocodiles.” His companions then raised the alarm.

Investigators searched for the missing boy and decided to check inside the crocodiles. Snipers used pork to lure them out of their pool and shot dead the first animal to lumber on to the bank.

Inside it they found human remains that were confirmed to be those of the boy.

The crocodiles were still being bred, even though their performances at the park were stopped several years ago and the pool had been sealed off for auction.

The park’s owner had hired a keeper to take care of the crocodiles, but it was unclear why the man was not at the enclosure when the boys broke in. The manager and the keeper were being questioned by police.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/china/article1690634.ece

JimD
04-23-2007, 06:04 AM
Catapult boy won't be making that mistake again.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 06:14 AM
Shades of "Albert and the Lion".

I can guarantee that right now the Chinese popular press will be full of stories of the "where have we gone wrong" variety, examining whether the one child policy and its concomitant, the "little emperor syndrome," in which every boy child is fussed over by two parents and four grandparents, si to blame for this mishap, just like the US popular press is full of similar stories over the VA Tech shootings.

peb
04-23-2007, 08:17 AM
Forced abortion up to (litteraly) days from birth. Hospitals full of the mothers of killed babies. It seems they missed some government stated birth-rate goal and it is being corrected on a local level.

From NPR
Has been going on for years. Forced abortions has been the norm for violators of the one-child policy for quite some time.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 08:51 AM
That's just a little too sweeping to be right, peb.

Let's try this:

The normal penalty for violation of the one child policy is loss of entitlement to benefits; a second offence (three children) leads to a fine.

The policy is enforced strictly in urban districts; in the better off rural areas if the first child is a girl, the parents can have another try.

The policy does not apply to minority races (China has an active "positive discrimination" policy towards the minority races).

There was a scandal last year where members of the Party Committee in a country district enforced abortions on women who had violated the policy, because the resulting baby boom had distorted the statistics for their district. Quite possibly, this sort of thing happens regularly and is not reported (last year's case made it to the BBC because a quite well known Chinese human rights activist was informed of it and he informed the BBC). I don't know whether this case is a new case or a repetition of last year's report.

peb
04-23-2007, 09:01 AM
Perhaps saying it is the "norm" was too broad. But your indication that there was one scandal of forced abortion last year implies that it is a rare event. That too is way to sweeping.

Forced sterilizations and abortions have not been uncommon, espicially in rural areas for a long time.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 09:12 AM
I mentioned the one case that I've heard about recently. Like you, I strongly suspect that it is far from being the only case. But its the only documented case that I know of, from recent years.

GregW
04-23-2007, 09:49 AM
The irony of this whole "one child" nonsense is that China is running out of workers in age range that they need. The one child policy started in 1975, has resulted in an abnormal dip in the under 35yrs of age population. Compounding the issue is that China controls where people live, while there is a coming shortage in the coastal cities, there is a surplus in the country side, however if China allowed everyone from the rural areas to move the cities, rural areas would probably empty out, while the cities would explode.

Phillip Allen
04-23-2007, 09:51 AM
China has a lot of problems, one of which is global swarming

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 09:56 AM
Sorry, Greg, but I think you are mis-informed.

China most certainly is not "running out of workers in age range that they need" - one thing China does not have is a labour shortage!

In my opinion, China is the only nation that has got this right.

Similarly, I think your information on migration and residency restrictions is out of date; China has made two very important reforms here - firstly, anyone can now buy a residence permit for any city, (people with needed skills get them free) and secondly and more fundamentally children of migrant workers in the coastal cities can now go to school and obtain medical care in the cities where their parents work.

The effect of the migration restrictions is obvious to anyone who visits China - there are no shanty towns, favelas, or whatever you want to call them on the edges of the big cities.

Sam F
04-23-2007, 09:58 AM
I mentioned the one case that I've heard about recently. Like you, I strongly suspect that it is far from being the only case. But its the only documented case that I know of, from recent years.

I guess it depends on how one defines recent...

Another triumph of planned parenthood from the Amnesty International 2005 Report:

Mao Hengfeng was sent to a labour camp for 18 months’ “Re-education through Labour” in April for persistently petitioning the authorities over a forced abortion 15 years earlier when she became pregnant in violation of China’s family planning policy. She was reportedly tied up, suspended from the ceiling and severely beaten in the labour camp. She had been detained several times in the past in psychiatric units where she had been forced to undergo shock therapy.

In February of 05...
a refugee claimant from China who worked as a "family-planning manager" was rejected by a Canadian court, which ruled that forcing women to abort their children against their will is a crime against humanity.

Li Min Lai admitted to aggressively enforcing the one-child policy in her workplace - at one time even camping out in front of a woman employee's home, eventually coercing her into aborting her seven-month-old unborn child.

Meanwhile, the busy little bureaucrats had a small failure...
HONG KONG, July 13, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A Hong Kong woman, visiting her family in June on China’s mainland accompanied by her two children, was surrounded by eight “family-planning” officers and threatened with a forced abortion for violating China’s one-child policy.

The Hong Kong paper The Apple Daily reports that the officers surrounded the 31 year-old woman at a relative’s home in central Hunan province where she was visiting. They then tried to drag her to a hospital to forcibly abort her 6-month old unborn baby, ignoring the fact that as a citizen of Hong Kong, the woman was not subject to the one-child policy.

“Hong Kong is part of China and also follows China’s policies,” the officials claimed, according to an AFP report. They then stripped her of her travel documents.

She was freed after being allowed to contact Hong Kong immigration officials by phone, who warned the family planning officials that their actions were illegal.

But in that same year things were looking up in...

LINYI, September 16, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) ¬ A massive campaign by China’s population-control authorities is underway in the country’s Shandong province, south-east of Beijing, with accounts of horrible atrocities, including infanticide, forced abortions on women, ¬even of those in the ninth month of pregnancy, ¬and the sterilizations of thousands.

Time magazine published a report, describing the situation as “one of the most brutal sterilization campaigns of recent years.” Time reported the case of Li Juan, a woman whose term baby was forcibly aborted. “The men with the poison-filled syringe arrived two days before Li Juan's due date. They pinned her down on a bed in a local clinic, she says, and drove the needle into her abdomen until it entered the 9-month-old fetus. ‘At first, I could feel my child kicking a lot,’ says the 23-year-old. ‘Then, after a while, I couldn't feel her moving anymore.’” Continue reading the grisly account at: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1103579,00....

Since March, family-planning officials have combed the Linyi region to forcibly abort pregnant women or to sterilize women who already have the allotted one child (or two if the first is a girl or handicapped).

In one county of the Linyi region alone, at least 7,000 people were forcibly sterilized between March and July this year. Several villagers were beaten to death for hiding family members trying to avoid forcible abortions and sterilizations.

Sam F
04-23-2007, 10:03 AM
they also have no free access to the media

the media is state owned/controled

Awwww... now don't be so picky there Phillip.

I'm sure this is just an "isolated incident":

Human rights campaigner, Chen Guangcheng, the blind farmer who initiated a class-action suit against population authorities for the atrocities, revealed to an independent Chinese news source that he was brutally attacked, forcibly detained and then sentenced to house arrest.

Chen, who is blind, described being detained in Beijing by officials from his home city of Linyi after fleeing to the capital to bring evidence of the atrocities to family planning officials in Beijing.

“They dragged me into the car, and my legs were hurt in quite a few places. Some of them pulled my hair and banged my head onto the wheel and hit my face and head. My nose still has two places which are hurt,” Chen, 34, told Radio Free Asia’s Mandarin service.

“Then I was trying to shout, but one of them squeezed my neck with his arm, stopping me from shouting out,” he told RFA reporter Ding Xiao. “At that moment, I didn’t even dare to swallow. About twice I passed out.”

Chen said his requests for medical attention were refused, and he was taken to a hotel and visited the next morning by the head of the Linyi public security bureau and the city’s deputy mayor.

“The main purpose was to threaten me. He said, ‘You have revealed news information to foreign media and have been suspected of violating Article 111 of Chinese criminal law: illegally providing intelligence to foreign countries, for which the maximum sentence is life in prison. The minimum you can get is 5-10 years.’”

Officials then called in his family to persuade him to give up his activism. “But then—I don’t know why—at a little after 6 o’clock in the evening, [they] abruptly let me go,” Chen told RFA.

The deputy mayor said the reason for Chen’s abduction was to protect him from “being used by the foreign media.”

“They don’t care about what the truth is. They just won’t allow any reporting. I think this is an issue of freedom of speech,” Chen said.

“They are now near our family home watching us,” Chen’s wife, Yuan, told RFA’s Cantonese service Wednesday. “There are police vehicles and seven or eight officers. There are also officials from our local county government. They are there round the clock, and they change shifts every six hours.”

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 10:08 AM
Yes, it was indeed the case where Chen Guangcheng got the BBC involved that I was thinking of.

Phillip Allen
04-23-2007, 10:22 AM
Like I said...China cannot afford for this to get out of hand

Osborne Russell
04-23-2007, 10:25 AM
The soft inhumanity of overpopulation.

Kaa
04-23-2007, 10:28 AM
China is not a nice country, news at 11.

Kaa

Sam F
04-23-2007, 10:31 AM
Like I said...China cannot afford for this to get out of hand

I don't know... but if what is going on is "in hand" now, I can't imagine what it would be like to get out of hand!

TimH
04-23-2007, 10:33 AM
Better be nice to China...They are the new world super power.

in other words China owns you...

Osborne Russell
04-23-2007, 10:39 AM
China is not a nice country, news at 11.


China is severely overpopulated . . . oops, that's a fact.

GregW
04-23-2007, 10:40 AM
Sorry, Greg, but I think you are mis-informed.

China most certainly is not "running out of workers in age range that they need" - one thing China does not have is a labour shortage!

In my opinion, China is the only nation that has got this right.

Similarly, I think your information on migration and residency restrictions is out of date; China has made two very important reforms here - firstly, anyone can now buy a residence permit for any city, (people with needed skills get them free) and secondly and more fundamentally children of migrant workers in the coastal cities can now go to school and obtain medical care in the cities where their parents work.

The effect of the migration restrictions is obvious to anyone who visits China - there are no shanty towns, favelas, or whatever you want to call them on the edges of the big cities.

Nope not mis-informed at all.
"Shanghai is rightfully known as a fast-moving, hypermodern city -- full of youth and vigor. But that obscures a less well-known fact: Shanghai has the oldest population in China, and it is getting older in a hurry. Twenty percent of this city's people are at least 60..."

Read this a few months ago, along with an article about India bragging about its mobile young population, in contrast to China's right people in the wrong place. I'm not saying the can't fix it, I'm saying that restricting a whole generation overnight to one child has effected the population curve.

Popeye
04-23-2007, 10:43 AM
china has over 500 different species of wildflowers

NA has under 30

Kaa
04-23-2007, 10:51 AM
China is severely overpopulated . . . oops, that's a fact.

Oops, it's not. It's a statement the truth of which entirely depends on how you define "overpopulation".

Kaa

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 10:56 AM
Nope not mis-informed at all.
"Shanghai is rightfully known as a fast-moving, hypermodern city -- full of youth and vigor. But that obscures a less well-known fact: Shanghai has the oldest population in China, and it is getting older in a hurry. Twenty percent of this city's people are at least 60..."

Read this a few months ago, along with an article about India bragging about its mobile young population, in contrast to China's right people in the wrong place. I'm not saying the can't fix it, I'm saying that restricting a whole generation overnight to one child has effected the population curve.

21% of the population of London, another fast moving, hyper-modern, city, are over 60 (source: 2001 Census)

When India's GDP per head gets within 50% of China's, India might have something to "brag" about.

George Roberts
04-23-2007, 11:37 AM
"china has over 500 different species of wildflowers

NA has under 30"

Mostly caused by those glaciers. Thank God you're (global warming) here.

GregW
04-23-2007, 11:52 AM
21% of the population of London, another fast moving, hyper-modern, city, are over 60 (source: 2001 Census)

London doesn't rely on young happy to work in factories work force, unlike China.
My point, and one that the Chinese recognize, is that while the one child policy cures one ill it creates another, namely a population inbalance, this one can't deny.

Kaa
04-23-2007, 11:53 AM
china has over 500 different species of wildflowers

NA has under 30

North America has under thirty species of wildflowers??

Umm... the words that come to mind are "reality check" and "failed".

Kaa

Osborne Russell
04-23-2007, 12:24 PM
Oops, it's not. It's a statement the truth of which entirely depends on how you define "overpopulation".

How's this: beyond the long-term carrying capacity of the habitat?

Kaa
04-23-2007, 12:30 PM
How's this: beyond the long-term carrying capacity of the habitat?

The long-term carrying capacity of the habitat (in terms of population numbers) is mostly determined by the level of the technology available to the society living in that habitat.

Current population size and density would have been entirely inconceivable to Malthus, for example :-)

Kaa

Sam F
04-23-2007, 12:32 PM
...Current population size and density would have been entirely inconceivable to Malthus, for example...

According to Malthus we all starved to death long ago. ;)

Popeye
04-23-2007, 12:37 PM
North America has under thirty species of wildflowers??

Umm... the words that come to mind are "reality check" and "failed".

well then ..

how many ? :confused:

Kaa
04-23-2007, 12:41 PM
well then ..

how many ? :confused:

Wildflowers of North America: A Guide to Field Identification (http://www.amazon.com/Wildflowers-North-America-Identification-Golden/dp/0307136647) talks of over 1,500 species.

Kaa

mister_moon
04-23-2007, 12:49 PM
Discussion of this concept of population control seems almost too clinical. Forcing parents to abort children they want is one of the cruelest forms of tyranny and oppression I can imagine. Horrifying, really.

Popeye
04-23-2007, 12:56 PM
Wildflowers of North America: A Guide to Field Identification (http://www.amazon.com/Wildflowers-North-America-Identification-Golden/dp/0307136647) talks of over 1,500 species.


there are more than 10,000 varieties of wildflowers in north america

but that's not what i said

try again

Osborne Russell
04-23-2007, 01:03 PM
The long-term carrying capacity of the habitat (in terms of population numbers) is mostly determined by the level of the technology available to the society living in that habitat.


What does the long-term evidence indicate?

Kaa
04-23-2007, 01:15 PM
What does the long-term evidence indicate?

Evidence of what? I am not sure what point you are trying to make...

Kaa

Kaa
04-23-2007, 01:17 PM
but that's not what i said


china has over 500 different species of wildflowers

NA has under 30

Kaa

Popeye
04-23-2007, 01:24 PM
yup

Kaa
04-23-2007, 01:27 PM
/shrug

Kaa

Popeye
04-23-2007, 01:38 PM
you just don't know anything

Kaa
04-23-2007, 01:51 PM
ROTFL... my Troll-O-Meter is redlining... :D

Kaa

Popeye
04-23-2007, 01:53 PM
heres a hint : look it up

George.
04-23-2007, 02:31 PM
The long-term carrying capacity of the habitat (in terms of population numbers) is mostly determined by the level of the technology available to the society living in that habitat.



As long as you don't care about quality of life.

I suppose a steady diet of office work, junk food, gadgets, and TV will get most people not to care, in time. No wonder China goes capitalist.

Kaa
04-23-2007, 02:43 PM
As long as you don't care about quality of life.

Not at all.

For example, the current level of technology allows MORE people with HIGHER quality of life to live on the same area of land compared to, say, XV century.

I suspect we have different time horizons in mind, though.

Also, keep in mind that given free choice people seem to prefer the life of "office work, junk food, gadgets, and TV" to pastoral alternatives. You can, of course, maintain that all of them are wrong... :D

Kaa

PatCox
04-23-2007, 02:49 PM
Why do they have to get this "in hand?" God gonna smite them?

PatCox
04-23-2007, 02:51 PM
New Jersey has a greater population density than China.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 03:55 PM
I've been to New Jersey (our N.A. head office is in Secaucus) and I've lived in and travelled in China.

In proportion, New Jersey has an awful lot less desert and mountain range than China has. It also has a lot more rainfall, on average.

Osborne Russell
04-23-2007, 04:08 PM
Evidence of what? I am not sure what point you are trying to make...

Kaa

What evidence supports the proposition that technology can infinitely increase the carrying capacity of a habitat?

It's a trick question. A habitat by definition includes that which limits population, and assumes those factors to be constant.

skuthorp
04-23-2007, 04:12 PM
China is also running out of water, the Yangtse is nearly dry in places. They have had this problem since the 1950's. Their one surplus is people, with a strong bias towards males owing to cultural preferences, and yes, it's not a nice place to live for Mr/s average but when you've got that many people you can afford to be careless, what's a million or so more or less?

Osborne Russell
04-23-2007, 04:14 PM
Not at all.

For example, the current level of technology allows MORE people with HIGHER quality of life to live on the same area of land compared to, say, XV century.

Not saying much.

If the earth stores oil over hundreds of millions of years, and technology allows us to consume it in a couple hundred, have the resources of the habitat been increased? Depends what time period you're talking about.

In the long term, consumption greater than production is untenable, and at that point you have overpopulation.

To avoid that, you have to plan, which means restricting consumption before you have to. That represents a loss of freedom, no doubt, which is another cost of overpopultion.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-23-2007, 04:25 PM
Travelling over the Yellow River by train en route between Shanghai and Beijing is an eye opener. The train rumbles on for ever over a long bridge...but the river just ain't there, any more.

China has this one right; the rest of us, espescially the Moslem world, have it wrong.

Picking up Greg's point, London is not that different to Shanghai; I've lived in both places. China's one child policy means that at this stage in the nation's development they have a very high proportion of their population in the work force; by the time the one child generation reach retirement they will have progressed a long way up the value added chain and will have left basic manufacturing behind for the most part and joined us in the service based economy.

Of course, they will need extensive provision for an ageing population, but the Chinese all know that - look at the savings rate!

Osborne Russell
04-23-2007, 06:20 PM
At that point, we'll need a new China. Maybe by then, technology will allow us to construct one.

Osborne Russell
04-23-2007, 06:30 PM
The Kern River is one of the principal rivers coming down off the west slope of the Sierra Nevada in California.

Driving into the mountains, the highway follows the river bed, which you don't realize unless you think about it, because the river bed and the surrounding landscape are barely less barren than the Mojave Desert on the other side of the mountains.

Suddenly you arrive at the cleft in the mountains through which the river used to flow. The highway climbs up upon a thing about the size of four Wal Marts stacked up, made out of concrete. On the downhill side, two pipes about 20 feet in diameter exit the dam and take off across the barren landscape downstream.

Continuing on the highway upstream, it instantly becomes a pool-and-drop river, full of trout and white water rafters, shaded by sycamores and oaks, climax riparian habitat, all the way up to timberline, and from there, up to the glaciers at the crest.

This kind of development is a crime. Piss on homo sapiens.

George.
04-24-2007, 06:16 AM
... keep in mind that given free choice people seem to prefer the life of "office work, junk food, gadgets, and TV" to pastoral alternatives.


Given that junk food, gadgets, and TV are broadly available and ever-cheapening, and are pushed hard by modern marketing, while things like clean air and water, outdoor recreation, fresh food, quality time, etc., are neither available nor promoted, thatis hardly surprising.

Quality of life is more than just cheap food, medicine, and mass consumption. But if that is all you know, that is all you demand.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-24-2007, 06:20 AM
Being wholly serious for a moment, I would draw peoples' attention to the very rapid rise of the environmental movement in today's China. Not quite "mainstream" yet, but I confidently predict that the CCP will be no more backward than the Evangelical movement in the United States in adopting "green" positions.

Gary E
04-24-2007, 07:47 AM
You people love the Commmieee Chineeee Rat Bastids...
You show it every time you spend your money at Walmart

Now quit'cher bitchin and be good little surfs and go back to work

Ohh?? ya cant go to worK? your JOB went to the Chinee ???
TUFF SH!T aint it...