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View Full Version : Seeteufel restoration? one for the Germans.



seanz
04-23-2007, 03:32 AM
Yesterday I went on a guided tour of a small harbour fort in Lyttelton Harbour.Fort Jervois on Ripapa island is a fort built on the site of a Moari pa (palisade fort) during the 19th century.
During the tour our guide told us that during the 1st World War the German raider captain Felix Graf von Luckner was held there for a short time after his recapture and he tried to re-visit the island when on a world cruise on his yacht 'Seeteufel' in (I think) 1938.
So,being the ardent web surfer that I am I started looking for information about the daring von Luckner.
And I found this on Wikipedia:
On 29 March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_29) 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004) the society "Felix Graf von Luckner Gesellschaft e. V." was founded in Halle, with the objective of commemorating Luckner's life and work, especially his role in safeguarding the city of Halle during April 1945. The Society also wishes to create a memorial and museum for Luckner in Halle, and to restore Luckners' yacht, Seeteufel, which is currently in a poor condition in Russia.
Now any further searching is of little good to me because I don't speak German.
Sooo...if there is anything on the web about this restoration (if there is one,we all know how slow these things can be :) )could someone point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Sean

martin schulz
04-23-2007, 06:20 AM
Well, Graf Luckner is a dubious person, to put it mildly...

Having family links to Queen Victoria as well as to the Kaiser it has always been doubted that his commision of the 3-mast ship Seeteufel in WWI, with which he raided english, american and french freigther was only because of his merits.

He was also known for his photographic portraits featuring numerous decorations, most of them being fakes.

Also the sinking of the Seeteufel, because of a tsunami (that's what Luckner told) is a bit doubtful.

Still, according to his biography, he must have been an impressive person.

seanz
04-23-2007, 06:08 PM
Thanks Martin
'Seeteufel' was von Luckner's yacht on which he cruised the world in the late 30's.It was 'Seeadler' that was wrecked by a 'tsunami' in 1917.Don't want to get into a fight over his status as dubious.He is well thought of down this way. A likable rogue,perhaps?He was made persona non grata by the nazis and eventually sentenced to death for his part in the surrender of the town Halle so he can't be all bad.
Anyhow my problem is I can't find anything on the restoration of his yacht 'Seeteufel' (of course there might not be anything)I don't know where to start looking because I don't speak German.

ingo
04-24-2007, 12:51 AM
I searched in the German "Yacht"-magazine but there are only very few information about SEETEUFEL. She seems to be a 150 ton Schooner. There is no picture from her in the magazine nor any drawings. Since she is a little big for a normal yacht, the German Sailing Federation has no record in the registers, too.
Von Luckner was a freemason and that was the main reason why the Nazis did not like him. Very interesting person and nice stories ;-)

martin schulz
04-24-2007, 02:29 AM
Thanks Martin
'Seeteufel' was von Luckner's yacht on which he cruised the world in the late 30's.It was 'Seeadler' that was wrecked by a 'tsunami' in 1917.Don't want to get into a fight over his status as dubious.He is well thought of down this way. A likable rogue,perhaps?He was made persona non grata by the nazis and eventually sentenced to death for his part in the surrender of the town Halle so he can't be all bad.
Anyhow my problem is I can't find anything on the restoration of his yacht 'Seeteufel' (of course there might not be anything)I don't know where to start looking because I don't speak German.

It was the Seeadler and Seeteufel that got wrecked (Luckner being called Seeteufel) ;)

Also true is that Luckner was not very popular with the Nazi's, probably mostly because he was a free mason, perhaps also because Hitler was very disappointed when he learned that a lot of Luckner stories were swindle (Henry Picker is quoted with: "Learning that some stories were swindle Hitler had the look of a child whose christmas presents were robbed")

Nevertheless, let me get this straight. I am also a great admirer of Graf Luckner and the antique way he fought his personal war in WWI.

seanz
04-24-2007, 03:18 AM
Well thanks for the help.Looks like a bit of a wild goose chase.Hope the 'Seeteufel' gets sorted out one day.At least now I know she was possibly a 150t schooner.Could be a bit of a big job that.:)
Felix von Luckner was a real character.After his re-capture he argued very strongly and very often that he could not be held in Ft Jervois because it was a military target.He was right of course,bit of a fine point considering the distance to serious hostilities but right nonetheless.:)

seanz
03-22-2010, 03:32 PM
http://luckner-society.com/Pages/ShipSeeteufel.html

I was looking for something else to do with von Luckner and found that the site has been updated. There are pictures.....she's a great big iron-hulled thing and will look good when they finish.

TimH
03-22-2010, 03:43 PM
A bit on the fugly side, but interesting nonetheless.

http://luckner-society.com/Seeteufel_Images/090709_sedorov_IMG_1395_small-Ship-Side.jpg

seanz
03-22-2010, 03:51 PM
Fugly? She's a clipper-bow round stern schooner, just needs some sticks and a coat of paint;).......not to mention, 'looked after' by the Russians for 60 years and still looks like it was once a yacht.

seanz
03-22-2010, 03:59 PM
just needs some sticks and a coat of paint


Ha! Maybe not............
http://www.taucher.net/redaktion/70/seeadler/Seeteufel_resize.jpg

Wonder what the original rig looked like.............

TimH
03-22-2010, 04:04 PM
http://www.taucher.net/redaktion/70/seeadler/Seeteufel_resize.jpg

Slightly odd. Makes me thing of a Beatles song.

Tom Hunter
03-22-2010, 04:31 PM
That is the Soviet rig, who knows how she was rigged before.

TimH
03-22-2010, 04:33 PM
Germans are too left brained for yacht design.

seanz
03-22-2010, 05:28 PM
Good grief TimH.....could you put a 'smilie' after that.

German design is good enough for the U.S. Coast Guard......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorch_Fock_(1933)

TimH
03-22-2010, 06:16 PM
I am German so I am allowed to say that :)

As far as I can tell Germany never had a Fife, or an Alden or a Mylne, or an Archer.

The Bigfella
03-22-2010, 06:27 PM
Germans are too left brained for yacht design.

I wish their left brains had seen to it that Chris Bangle never got a gig at BMW.

Sorry about the drift... please resume normal service

John B
03-22-2010, 06:42 PM
I am German so I am allowed to say that :)

As far as I can tell Germany never had a Fife, or an Alden or a Mylne, or an Archer.
Max Oertz.

keith66
03-22-2010, 06:58 PM
I have read the book about the Seeadler & its a spanking good story, He came across as a man with morals & honor probably out of his time. Regarding the rig on his "yacht" She looks to me very much like a standard German or continental cargo carrier of the 20's & 30's & would likely have been rigged as a two masted Topsail schooner.
Interestingly there is a photo in Simpers book Gaff Sail of the very similar German Schooner Margarethe under sail.
She became the Mi Amigo the Radio Caroline ship that ended her days on the Long sand head in 1980.

John B
03-22-2010, 07:09 PM
These are the three books I have about Von Luckner... been a while but I'll re read them now.
Of course he has a certain fame here after being captured, escaping and being recaptured during WW1.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/misc%2010/IMG_6735_1.jpg

edit , the three in the middle . Lowell Thomas and Von Luckner.Missing Sea devil , but I have read that some time ago.

TimH
03-22-2010, 11:06 PM
Max Oertz.

Thanks. That name sounds vaguely familiar. He has some nice designs. I wonder why he isnt better known.

I never knew BMWs were designed by an American.

Germans do build things better than anyone else. I think its a trade-off. Nobody is perfect :D

martin schulz
03-23-2010, 07:15 AM
I am German so I am allowed to say that :)

As far as I can tell Germany never had a Fife, or an Alden or a Mylne, or an Archer.

On the other hand Abeking & Rasmussen and the yacht designs by Henry Rasmussen (mR-yachts, Dragons, Concordias...) are well known and do have a good reputation.

TimH
03-23-2010, 09:23 AM
I thought the Concordias yawls were designed by Ray Hunt and Waldo Howland.

TimH
03-23-2010, 09:26 AM
Besides Max Oertz what about Heinrich Gruber?



or if you would like a bigger one, Aschanti IV:


http://www.superyachttimes.com/images/4/2214/pic1.jpg

Ya know, she has beautiful lines but she is no Fife. It could be the angle but something isnt right about that bow.

Clive P
03-23-2010, 09:50 AM
My own Dragon was built by Rasmusson, but the design is Johan Anker, Norway, 1928.
Clive P

TimH
03-23-2010, 10:07 AM
Typical Henry Gruber bow; here's another (Nordwind)

http://www.classicyacht.info/modules/yachts/phpmaker/uploads/orig/mini-St%20Tropez%202004%20027_lrg.jpg

What do you think Andrew? To me it looks funny.

German craftsmanship is second to none.
Engineering is right up there too.
Artistically they are not quite as good.

Presuming Ed
03-23-2010, 11:38 AM
Old dog =/= new tricks

TimH
03-23-2010, 12:11 PM
not quite Fife, but certainly as good as Nicholson or Watson or Rhodes or Stephens.

:eek::eek::eek:

Well they do say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

Paul Pless
03-23-2010, 01:59 PM
http://www.superyachttimes.com/images/4/2214/pic1.jpg

My kinda boat!:)

TimH
03-23-2010, 02:48 PM
My kinda boat!:)

I thought you had a cabin cruiser..

Paul Pless
03-23-2010, 03:25 PM
Cabin cruisers are Katherine's type of boat.

John B
03-23-2010, 03:47 PM
I dunno Tim, while I tend to agree that there are design differences( I can pick most contemporary kiwi yacht designers from the boats style )I think you could be mixing eras.
Lots of difference between a 1920'/30s cruiser/racer and a 1900 yacht.

Paul Pless
03-23-2010, 03:49 PM
Lots of difference between a 1920'/30s cruiser/racer and a 1900 yacht.I'm always taken by how modern looking turn of the previous century New Zealand racing boats look. Especially the underwater profiles.

John B
03-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Even that was fashion though. You can find Waiones type of underwater profile in commonsense of yacht design described as a 1905 hull form. went out of fashion for a less radical keel nock after that though.
And fin keels , obviously well ahead of their time in the 1890's were later discounted as inferior due to greater wetted surface. No real reappearance as a generic yacht hull form until what.. the 1950's?

edit aww.. Nordwind is 1939! to me she looks like a husky 1920/30's cruiser type... Aschanti 1954.. downright moderns compared to most peoples general picture of Fifes.

TimH
03-23-2010, 04:12 PM
What looks right IS right. Whatever the era :)

I am not saying that isnt a beautiful boat. I am just saying that bow has a flat spot.

These are acceptable bows:

http://www.superyachttimes.com/articles/Image/Editorial/Yacht-Regattas/Les-Voiles-des-Saint-Tropez-2008/2008-09-30/LVDST-30-03-big.jpg

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/2/0/0/7/8/2007887_2_thumb.jpg

http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.uk/uploads/239/22tonnes3.jpg

Without that flat spot she would be much nicer :)

IMHO of course!

TimH
03-23-2010, 04:30 PM
There are very few boats that I cant find flaws with. This one I cant. :D


Well balanced proportions, curves in the right places of pleasing radii and with pleasing angles. nice.

http://sailboatdata.com/imagehelper.asp?FILE_id=5865

TimH
03-23-2010, 04:38 PM
And this.....

http://www.cannellclassicboats.com/images/cruisingyacht2a.jpg

http://www.cannellclassicboats.com/images/cruisingyacht1a.jpg

http://www.cannellclassicboats.com/images/cruisingyacht3a.jpg

TimH
03-23-2010, 04:48 PM
Anyway sorry for the thread drift. Anyone have pics or plans of her orignal rig? That Russian one doesnt do her justice.

seanz
03-23-2010, 05:01 PM
Thread drift....what thread drift? ;)

If someone does have pics of the boat from the 30's the people here (http://luckner-society.com/Pages/ShipSeeteufel.html) would like to see them too.

John B
03-23-2010, 05:38 PM
There is bound to be press photos of Seeteufel when it was here.

But in the meantime , an interesting PDf with some Von luckner data and an incidental photograf and model of a spar torpedo boat ( was being discussed on another site.)

http://www.navymuseum.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/white-ensign/the-white-ensign-magazine-issue-6-2009.pdf



photograf( geez check out the speelling.. must be german in another life, or watched too much hogans heros.)

seanz
03-23-2010, 07:00 PM
Great link and an excellent pic of a model torpedo boat......they were mad, I say, maaad.
:)

John B
03-23-2010, 11:02 PM
These are the three books I have about Von Luckner... been a while but I'll re read them now.
Of course he has a certain fame here after being captured, escaping and being recaptured during WW1.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/misc%2010/IMG_6735_1.jpg

edit , the three in the middle . Lowell Thomas and Von Luckner.Missing Sea devil , but I have read that some time ago.
Raiders of the deep is an account of the U boat actions of WW1, not a von Luckner book.

John B
03-23-2010, 11:04 PM
I found one photo of Seeteufel when von Luckner was cruising around the world. Its tiny and part of the sea chest book.
She looks like a bald headed schooner with a small, almost motor sailer rig. Hard to tell because its so small.. she looks a bit more balanced .. perhaps without all that extra jib boom on her.