5.6 knots is about it

[cs]

Learned a lot of new things today. One is I need to think of some different line routing schemes and another is I really need to work on line management.

Some of the more important stuff is stuff like the Weekender is real fun around 3 to 4 knots. Around 4.7 knots it gets a little hairy. If you hit 5.6 knots you could have an "incident".

Most of the day was good. I was averageing about 2 knots with stretches where I was running between 3 and 4 knots with ocasional bounces off of 4.7.

Now that we have some of the backround we can talk about 5.6 knots. Wind gust are tricky, at least to me. Imagine being on the backside of the bay running along at 2 knots. Luckly the GPS was in the Otter box at this time. All of sudden I find myself getting close to a lee shore and the window does it little gusty thing. At this time the GPS would later reveal that I had reached 5.6 knots. It was also at this time that I found out excatly where the point of no return on the Weekender is. BTW it is at the place where the water is halfway between the lee rail and the cockpit. Don't take much from there.

Another lesson learned today is to tie all your floaty stuff off to the boat somehow, especilly your bailing bucket.

But anyway, next thing I know is 92 degrees and greeen water. At this time I still had my sunglasses.

I've read some here on righting onself and I found out that I don't have enough behind to right a Weekender. In fact after about 15 or 20 minutes of trying it by myself a jet ski comes over and overs assitance. Between him pulling with the jet ski and me riding the keel we managed to right it, but it was short lived. The boat was completly submerged at this time with only the cabin top out of the water.

I talked him into pulling me closer to shore and than he left. Another jet ski guy came by and got in the water to lend a hand. We got her even closer to shore so that she was sitting on her keel and I was able to get the rails above water.

This is when I discovered that my collasable bailing bucket had gone bye bye. But I still had my small cooler.

After a lot of bailing I was as close to being dried out as I was going to get. BTW I've got some issues with the rig I will need to work out. But anyway she is floating on her lines and I'm still on a lee shore.

I try to raise the jib and sail off that way. I did mange to get off the shore only to be driven back on. After much sweat and cursing I do mangae to make it across a sluegh (or whatever it is called) to the other side, which is really an even worse situation as far as being on a lee shore.

The wind is picking up pretty good here and everytime I try and raise some sail I get pushed further into the shore. Eventually I give up on paddleing and trying to sail and walk the boat along the shore till I round the point.

At this time I raise the jib, as the wind dies off, and head toward the boat ramp. I eventually make it without any major problems.

Of course I get to the boat ramp and head toward the dock. As I approch the dock some kid in a bass boat is trolling toward the dock to pick up his Mom and Dad. At this time I'm almost at the dock and have released the sheets on the jib and prepare to fend of the dock. The kid keeps comeing for the same spot I am. He got a shot of my bowsprit across his bows and never said a word.

And of course to make a bad day worse I couldn't back the trailer straight, but I didn't really care what everyone else thought.

And BTW I will remember this for a few days at least. I forgot sunscreen and went shirtless, so by this time tommorow I should have blisters.

Sorry no photos or videos.

Chad

[capt jake]

Great story Chad. :) I have been out in my Weekender in a small craft advisory once. Had one reef in and a really big guy with me. Had it not been for that rail meat, I know I would have been over in no time. He was grinning from ear to ear the whole time. I was white knuckled the whole day.

[StevenBauer]

I think you'll find the Balboa sails a little better than the Weekender. Something to do with that Lyle Hess guy I think. :)

Steven

[John B]

Ye gods... you capsized it? Did I read that right?

[cs]

Yup

[Bruce Taylor]

It'd be interesting to see the stability curve for the Stevenson Weekender.

[Paul Girouard]

Great storey Chad glad you surived to tell it . Sounds warm / hot where you are all ready , how was the water?? Cold ??

I was laughing but I do feel yer pain man , especially about the backing the trailer down:D Next time you'll have worked out a few bugs and it will go better.

Or maybe a dog face never will / can be a sailor :D Good luck next time out . Good thing you fergot your camera , or did it go in the drink :eek: :mad: If it did:mad:

Get some thing on that sun burn !

[Ian McColgin]

A shape like the Weekender looses additional form stability once the deck's under.

You don't mention trying to reef. Might be good to set that up.

Some sloops don't handle too well under main alone - the Cape Dory Typhoon springs to mind - but you should experiment. If the sail area with main alone is not centered too far aft, you'll have a better chance sailing main alone than jib alone. Especially to weather.

G'luck

[mister_moon]

That sounds like a no fun day. At least you were alone in your misery. Having your wife along would have made it much worse!

Anyway, flatties don't have much reserve stability, any heel over 25 or 30 degrees and watch out. You were a bit cryptic in your intro, but I'm guessing a tangle of some sort effectively cleated your main at the exact wrong moment. I had a similar situation once with my Windsprint when after a jibe, the sheet got wrapped around the rudder head and it was only by the grace of God that I didn't go over.

At least you came out of it safer and wiser.

[J. Dillon]

Good tale Chad. It's the best and surest wasy to learn anything, by your mistakes.;) It's a better story to tell, mishaps and all. Nothing more boring then a dull sail any where.:D

JD

[S/V Laura Ellen]

What kind of wind speed did you have?

[JimD]

Quite the little adventure, Chad. Glad the water and air temp wasn't too cold. A similar situation in our water could lead to a serious case of hypothermia. Feeling motivated to work on the Balboa yet? :D

[cs]

Older and wiser this morning, if not a little sore. Walking around here like and old man. Back and shoulders on fire and on top of that methinks that maybe I cracked or bruised a rib.

But I'm here and the boat is outside and not on the bottom of the lake.

Winds speeds yesterday were 8 mph, or so says the weather channel.

I've got a block up top that is jamming on the throat halyard. I need to look into that. Of course it may just be mud from the bottom of the lake.

What caused this incident is this. Here I was just moving along at about 2 knots. I went to tack away from the lee shore. At this time I had plenty of room. But anyway in the middle of the tack the wind gusted and that is when the rail went under and I went over. I think that if the water had been deeper she might have went all the way over. As it was I think the mast was hitting the bottom of the lake and keeping it from going all the way over.

I hung around quite a bit on the keel hanging on to the shrouds trying to keep it from going turtle.

Chad

[Ian McColgin]

I'd not expect a capsize in gusts normal for such an ambient wind. Was there a big shift as well, catching you closely trimmed on what's now a beam reach? Lakes, rivers or any water closely hemmed in by land, especially topographically varied land, may have many interesting local breezes that can come from some very odd angles at most refreshing strengths. As you learn to read the water, you'll better see these before they smite you.

It's well to never cleat the mainsheet of a light boat.

[Ian McColgin]

Adding, in such light wind, you'll be better able to claw off a lee shore with all sail set. I can understand being conservative after a first and extreem dumping, but sail.

You might also invest in a nice permanently mounted diaphram pump. Such pricy purchases may seem overkill for a wee boat, but it's like a mantra of preparedness that may prevent it's ever being used in extremis.

Finally, you might even consider what some catamaran sailors do and make a masthead float. It'll look like a UFO perched where seagulls should, but it will keep the boat from turtling.

G'luck

[cs]

The mainsheet wasn't cleated, it was in my hand. I was in a part of the lake that was hemmened in pretty good. As soon as the rail started to dip I let the mainsheet fly but it wasn't enough.

Chad

[Bruce Taylor]

So, the wind was flukey and you were a bit slow to respond to a gust. Even so, it sounds like a remarkably tender boat.

Better tie some bottles to the top of the mast!

[Ian McColgin]

There's gotta be something I'm missing. Wind gusted in the middle of a tack and over you go. Well, in the middle of a tack you're luffing bow to the wind. (You did tack, not gybe?) It sounds like you got smacked with a gust and a good 45 or more degree windshift.

But why'd she go over with the sail released?

You have the gaff version, normally more capsize resistant. Could your boom have caught in the water and that kept the sail from getting out far enough to luff and prevent capsize?

I wish we had pix of your boat. A lot of weekenders can be arranged such that even a knockdown will only fill the cockpit and the watertight integrity of cabin and areas under seats and cockpit sole will keep her afloat while you pump.

Talk with other Weekenders, but perhaps you should practice some incline tests leading to knockdown drills. Standing well out on the board really should have brought you up, unless the sail trapped by the water and unable to luff helped keep you down.

Anyway, it wasn't boat speed or wind speed alone that hurt.

And you had a great, albeit over-refreshing sail. Dreadnaught.

G'luck

[Bruce Taylor]

Heavy spars?

[Tylerdurden]

Jam lots of blue board in every nook and cranny. Its a weekender thing. A battery and a high volume bilge pump would be good too.

[peb]

Were you going upwind or downwind when the capsize occurred?

When going upwind,keep the boat moving. The boat speed will help keep wind gusts pulled forward. In heavy wind on a small boat the most likely time for a capsize is when the boat is sitting still. But if the boat is moving and you are close hauled, normally one has plenty of time to react to a shift/gust.

If you were going down wind, anything deeper than a beem reach, and the wind shifts hard and starts to excessively heel the boat, maybe you turned the wrong way. Downwind there is the saying: "put the bow under the mast". If you turn upwind (which is instictive when one is going the other way), and the wind ****s back, you may be exposing more sail to the wind at just the wrong moment.


But in general, boat speed is always your friend when it comes to stability.

edited to add:
Of course I have never sailed a weekender. The advice above to talk to other weekender sailors about how it happened is the best advice.

[Nick C]

TRAILEE TIP, if your problem with the trailer is that you can't see it very well without the boat on it, find a way to mount a flag or pole that sticks up so you can see where your trailer is without having to do the S thing going down the ramp.

[cs]

Good tip. Another thing that would help is to let the tailgate down when backing. Than I would have a good few of the trailer.

No comments on the bass boat incident at the dock?

Later, maybe after supper, I will start trying to disect what went on and we can discuss and you guys can help me figure out how to let it happen again.

You know even though I had a good day at the lake it was pretty much ruined with the "incident"

Chad

[cs]

BTW did I mention that I think I either cracked or bruised a rib? Still hurts pretty good. I'm thinking that maybe I might have bounced off the boom when I went swimming.

Chad

[Paul Girouard]

[quote=cs;1556701]Older and wiser this morning, if not a little sore. Walking around here like and old man. Back and shoulders on fire and on top of that methinks that maybe I cracked or bruised a rib.

/quote]

Ya ,you did post #13 mind going as well :rolleyes: :D

[Hwyl]

Chad, you're probably better not going over, but once you're over, you can increase your leverage by standing on the keel and holding the jib sheet, to put your body weight further out. If your mast was stuck though, you probably still would not have got it out.

I think I might be the first one to say, nice of those guys on the jet skis to help you out.

[Ian McColgin]

One trick for backing a trailor, get your left hand on the bottom of the wheel and leave the right hand free. Whether you look in the mirrors or look over hour shoulder, just move that left hand in the direction you want the trailor to go.

[Figment]

If your mast was stuck though, you probably still would not have got it out.

Old beach-cat trick: Get your weight aft so that the bow (and the foot of the jib) float high. The wind will rotate the boat downwind of the stuck mast, and she won't be stuck much longer.

[mister_moon]

I think I might be the first one to say, nice of those guys on the jet skis to help you out.

Chad, is that $10,000 jet ski license still one of the planks of your presidential bid? :D

[Paul Girouard]

Chad, is that $10,000 jet ski license still one of the planks of your presidential bid? :D


Hehehhehhehe :D What goes around comes around eh :D

One of the problem with campaign promises , some smart SOB will remember , heheheheh!!

[willmarsh3]

Chad, it sound like you had more fun than anticipated to put it mildly.

Lake Guntersville and probably Lake Nickajack are known for serious wind gusts since they are in mountainous terrain. I laid my 32' steel ketch on her side once before I was able to let the mainsheet go. In another race, a trimaran that wasn't supposed to be able to got turned turtle. I tried for two hours to right it without success.
It sounds like I should have gone sailing on Sunday instead of Saturday.

[cs]

Two things that would have made this more enjoyable.

One is sunscreen. I'm a freaking idot for not putting some on, and still paying the price.

The other is whatever I did to my ribs, cause they hurt.

Other than that, I look back on it and almost can smile.

Something mentioned over at Frank's site was if you do have an "incident" that you need to put a PFD on the end of the mast to keep it from having a worse "incident."

While we are thinking on this, lets ponder on this a bit. Right now my halyards come down and cleat at the base of the mast. This is really a pain. I think I know what to do. That would be put a block on each side of the mast and route the lines back to the cockpit.

Another annoyance is the lacing on main catches on the pivot hardware at the mast which makes you have to work the lacing over it while raising.

If the halyards were routed to the cockpit, this also would have to be addressed.

Another issue I found was that the jib sheets hang on the shrouds. I've seen fixes involving PFC pipe over the shrouds.

and BTW John some campaign manager you turned out to be. :rolleyes: :)

Chad

[Ron Carter]

Chad,
Tail gate down definitely increases visibility when backing. Just be sure that the winch mount is far enough aft to allow a reasonably tight turn without hitting the lowered tail gate. Voice of experience. It takes a bit more room than you'd think. Hand on the bottom of the wheel is also sound advice.

[mister_moon]

and BTW John some campaign manager you turned out to be. :rolleyes: :)


I'm merely giving you the opportunity to be a uniter, not a divider... :)

[Ian McColgin]

Chad, i'm a fine one to talk but can you post some pix, or line drawings, or references to which Weekender you have?

There should be no hardware on the mast that can interfere with the lacing. I don't know what you mean by pivot hardware so a pic or description might help those of us not certain of your terminology.

If it's hard to reach over the cuddy, by all means lead the halyards back. I like two turning blocks to starboard (peak and throat) and one to port (jib) on the deck just abeam the mast. You can put them on the mast - on the starboard side have the peak turning block higher. For the cleats, have the peak outboard of the throat.

Split ash rollers are very nice on shrouds, and very pricy. PVC tubing works fine but if the terminals and such at the ends of the shrouds are already on, the size that will fit over will feel clunkey on the boat. You might work either a bit of single braid or the sheath of some old double braid over. The hole in the center of the line can be enlarged by pushing the line together to get it over the rigging terminal and then it can be pulled out to fit semi-loosely. Make ends by cutting in half plastic bushings of suitable size to be siezed over the stay and under the singlebraid. If the rig tends to sag too much you may either put a bit of siezing on the stay so the upper bushing can rest on that and stay up. This will give enough turning round the stay to help a lot.

Another dodge is to make the bowlines on you jibsheets non-fouling. Lead the bitter end of the port sheet in from the starboard side of the clew cringle and make the bowline. Starboard sheet enters from port. This puts the smoother part of each knot inside. It helps a little.

Even better for a small boat is to sieze the sheet in place. This takes a line long enough for both parts. Center it in the clew cringle and put on a good tight whipping with wracking down the center. It'll hold fine and won't catch the shrouds.

G'luck

[capt jake]

OK, maybe some of these shots may help. I have all of my lines run back to the cockpit.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pcf0827ac9a46ba22614eae600225532c/fc5127c9.jpg
Turning blocks Ian is referring to on the base of the mast.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/p448cf6b15de8f98ebb0e0e41bdbbfb47/f9b6bd1d.jpg
Run to camcleats on top of the cabin. The green bag is used to hold the excess line.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p9dfa72b71bf15cf33ef83af1cbc80954/f0619419.jpg
A side shot of the turning blocks.

I haven't had an issue with the jib lines Chad. I have them run inside of the shrouds.

Even better for a small boat is to sieze the sheet in place. This takes a line long enough for both parts. Center it in the clew cringle and put on a good tight whipping with wracking down the center. It'll hold fine and won't catch the shrouds
Pretty much what I did.

[capt jake]

Found another that might also help. One of my favorite shots.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid214/pb74859363920d245000024650291bd6a/ed2354b9.jpg

[Ian McColgin]

Nice rig. If not rigged with the deadeyes, I'd run that jib sheet outside as even close hauled it's bearing on the shroud. But that's just one shot and I could be quite wrong.

Capt Jake, have you tried capsize drill? She looks a bit husky to come up with just one guy standing out on the board.

A big (for the boat) companion won't be utterly watertight but it ought with the barge boards in to be enough to keep the boat from swamping. The angled out companion frames mean that the barge boards are easier to install but also they float out more readily. On any knock-down prone day, the companion needs to be slid shut and secured to keep everything in place.

Other knock-down problems come from cockpit hatches that don't secure. Latches on everything if you want to float back up.

We should recall that salty water is not the only place under some pretty interesting air.

I'm impressed, by the way, that such a wee boat does so well with a forestaysail. Who'd-a-thunk-it?

Now about that 225% genny on a flying roller . . . .

[capt jake]

The sheets do rub on the shrouds, but it hasn't caused a problem. It actually gives a nicer shape to the sail.

That forestays'l in that shot was a test. It is way to much effort to keep everything in perfect harmony for it to work properly. ;) I use that smaller stays'l alone when I have a reef in the main. It works great then. :)

That larger jib is what we are calling a lapper, as it just laps past the mast. I would guess is at about 110%. That is the jib I use most often. The roller works outstanding BTW. ;) I beat trying to go forward and tie down a big billowing mass of sail. ;) I can furl it in or out with ease from the cockpit. Home designed spool RWO swivels, cable sewn into the leading edge of the sail.

Never attempted a knock down drill, though I have come close (at least I think I have) a few times.

I have sailed that boat twice single handed. Once in very light breezes (no problem) the other was a pretty good wind out of Elliot Bay in Seattle. The nice thing then was that it was a constant wind. I was flying past others with the same boat. :)

I would also think that it would be hard to right. Here is a shot of what's going on beneath.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/pe4c94d47b1af8b402823a41e99dd7499/fd045905.jpg

[George.]

Dalia's jib sheets bear on the shrouds like that, and for the same reason. The right spot for the deck block is just aft of the shrouds, which means you can't sheet in all the way if you rig the sheet ourside.

I seized a stainless steel eye (just a plain ring, about two inches diameter) to the shrouds at the correct lead, and neither sheet nor shroud chafe any longer.

[capt jake]

Dalia's jib sheets bear on the shrouds like that, and for the same reason. The right spot for the deck block is just aft of the shrouds, which means you can't sheet in all the way if you rig the sheet ourside.

I seized a stainless steel eye (just a plain ring, about two inches diameter) to the shrouds at the correct lead, and neither sheet nor shroud chafe any longer.
Now that is the perfect explanation of what is going on. I have that plastic shroud cover on my shrouds. No chafe.

I also splurge on the lines and went with the double braid. Once stretched, I haven't had and fouling issues.

[cs]

I promise to replay more to this thread later. I'm just hoping that something quits hurting, either the sunburn or the rib. This has to be the worse sunburn I've ever had. Here I'm working on Wed and it still feels like it did Sunday. Well a wee bit worse than Sunday, more like Monday.

Jake you guys make me sick with your wonderful work on your boats.

I still want to discuss this more, just give me a little more time to sit down in front of the computer.

Did anyone have any thoughts on the bass boat incident? I had the right of way, right?

Chad

[mister_moon]

Docks at boat ramps seem to be first come, first served. You may have had technically had ROW. But if he perceived he was first in line it would appear to him you were barging in. Or it could be that he didn't notice you, or even that he was a just a jerk. Boat ramps are often a good place to to see the worst in people anyway. Relax and enjoy the show.

[Ian McColgin]

Docking can obviates the normal small boat sail over power rule in that a docking vessel is severely constrained in ability to manoever.

In a crowded situation, it's generally the one most obviously close and intending to dock that has rights, but power boat people don't think.

Stop there?

They don't think like sailors and often don't know how to look at what a sailboat is doing with any anticipatory understanding. The clunkhead probably was clueless.

It's best in situations like this to announce what you're doing. And be prepared for town dock and launching ramp idiocy.

I know one old sailor who takes a six pack and a lawn chair to the public ramp each Sunday morning, just to get his yuks. Guaranteed entertainment any sunny weekend morning any ramp in America, probably the world.

[cs]

See the thing about it was is that I was approching the dock before he was. The rest of the dock was empty. I was already committed to the spot I was heading to. For me to go elswhere I would have had to turn right into him.

Of course I was tired, mean and angry so it is probably better that we didn exhange any words.

Chad

[JimD]

I have just finished a winter long Power And Sail Squadron boating course. Very few sailboat types taking the course. Almost all power boaters. Still, the course went to considerable length to educate boaters about sailboats and why they do what they do. By law boaters here must now take a test similar to getting a car license which includes understanding sailboats and right of way rules. It seems to have helped reduce the number of ignorant and inconsiderate boaters.

[Andrew]

There's a saying around here "You haven't been around if you haven't gone aground".

When we got our daysailor, I kept mentioning to my wife we should try a capsize drill. We finally had an unexpected one the following November, two hours in the water. From experience it will become a fond memory in time (and great learning experience). The thing about a planned capsize is that you don't feel as big a fool if you have problems.

I can sympathize about the sunburn. Friends took me tubing down one of the rivers around Chattanooga years ago. Unforutanely we got on the water later than we expected and they turned the water off at the damn. What was to be two hours turned into five...floating belly up in the sun. One of the most excruciating weeks in my life.

[cs]

The shock and awe are starting to wear off, and I'm trying to find the nerve and the time to discuss what and how everything went wrong and what I can do to fix some things to make them work better. Give me a little more time and I will disect this thread and what everyone has posted and I will try to disect what happened on the lake and make this a good learning experiance.

BTW this afternoon my back is fealing a little better but my ribs are still singing pretty good.

Chad

[cs]

Wanted to pull this up top because Peter hadn't seen this yet.

Chad