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View Full Version : Virginia student with his own weapon helps stop campus killer.



BrianW
04-19-2007, 03:36 PM
Some folks where looking for examples of an armed citizen stopping a school mass killing.

Try this one in January 2002. It's long, so I highlighted the parts which we've been discussing.


Copyright 2002 Richmond Newspapers, Inc.

Richmond Times Dispatch (Virginia)

January 18, 2002 Friday City Edition

HEADLINE: 'I WAS SICK. I NEED HELP'; SHOCKED TOWN STILL GRASPS FOR ANSWERS

BYLINE: Rex Bowman, Times-Dispatch Staff Writer, Contact Rex Bowman at (540) 344-3612 or rbowman@timesdispatch.com, Times-Dispatch staff writers Carlos Santos and Tyler Whitley contributed to this report.,

DATELINE: GRUNDY

"I was sick, I was sick. I need help."

That was the terse explanation Peter Odighizuwa offered yesterday when reporters outside the courthouse asked him why he shot and killed three people at the Appalachian School of Law on Wednesday. Three others were wounded.

Inside Buchanan County General District Court, Odighizuwa was less vocal. He hid his face and said nothing as a court clerk read the charges against him: three counts of capital murder, three counts of attempted capital murder and six counts of using a firearm in commission of a felony.

Odighizuwa, who was wrestled to the ground by fellow students, one of whom aimed his own revolver at Odighizuwa, could face the death penalty if convicted.

The shooting rampage, which claimed the life of the law school's dean, has rocked the town of Grundy, which until Wednesday had been known mostly for its high school's championship wrestling squad. Now, the entire town is grieving on national television over what everyone can describe only as an act of senseless violence.

"The Oklahoma City bombing, the World Trade Center, Columbine - at the time they seemed like worlds away," the Rev. Stan Parris said yesterday during a memorial service for the three dead. "This time the tragedy has struck home, a remote, tiny town, a place protected by mountains and family values."

"Those who were killed were some of our finest people," Buchanan Supervisor Ed Bunn said. "It's on everybody's mind."

The man accused of the killings, 43-year-old Odighizuwa, is being held without bail. Yesterday, General District Judge Patrick Johnson appointed Radford attorney James C. Turk Jr. to represent the Nigerian-born Odighizuwa.

Odighizuwa protested briefly, saying he wanted area lawyer James Carmody to represent him. Carmody had represented Odighizuwa in August when he was charged with assault and battery against his wife.

But Carmody is not on Virginia's short list of lawyers qualified to represent capital defendants, so Johnson appointed Turk.

In his only courtroom outburst, Odighizuwa complained loudly that he is not getting proper medical attention.

"I was supposed to see my doctor," he said, his voice rising. "He was supposed to help me out. I need my medication."

Bailiffs then led Odighizuwa from the courtroom. He wore shackles on his feet and handcuffs on his wrists. He hid his face behind the green court documents that stated the crimes he is accused of committing.

Those killed in Wednesday's shooting rampage were the school's dean, L. Anthony Sutin, 42, of Grundy; associate professor Thomas F. Blackwell, 41, of Grundy; and student Angela Denise Dales, 33, of Vansant. The wounded are Rebecca Claire Brown, 38, of Roanoke; Martha Madeline Short, 37, of Grundy; and Stacey Beans, 22, of Berea, Ky.

State police and school authorities allege that Odighizuwa, upset about being dismissed from school for poor grades, shot and killed Sutin and Blackwell in their upstairs offices, using a Jennings .380 semiautomatic pistol he had concealed beneath his trench coat. He then allegedly went downstairs and fatally shot Dales and wounded the three other students.

Police said they do not know how many shots were fired, but by the time fellow students tackled Odighizuwa, the two magazine clips he had with him were empty. Each magazine could hold eight rounds.

One of the students who subdued Odighizuwa was Tracy Bridges, a 25-year-old sheriff's deputy from Buncombe County, N.C., who is studying to become a lawyer.

"We went to get to class after 1 o'clock, and [student] Ted Besen and other students and I were in the classroom when we heard the first three shots," Bridges said yesterday. "It sounded kind of muffled, and a few seconds later we heard the next round of shots, and a scream.

"Me and Ted and [student] Rob Sievers went out to look. A professor ran up the stairs and said, 'Peter [Odighizuwa] has got a gun and he's shooting.' I ran back and told the class to get out. They went out the back way," Bridges said.

"We went down, too, and Peter was in the front yard. I stopped at my vehicle and got a handgun, a revolver. Ted went toward Peter, and I aimed my gun at him, and Peter tossed his gun down.

"Ted approached Peter, and Peter hit Ted in the jaw. Ted pushed him back and we all jumped on," Bridges said.

Yesterday, the day after the killings, authorities and students who knew Odighizuwa painted a picture of a man who had hit rock bottom.

In addition to being charged with abuse last year, Odighizuwa, a naturalized U.S. citizen, had flunked out of the law school last spring, a fact he kept hidden from his wife and four young sons. His wife, who worked as a nursing aide at an area hospital, left him three months ago and moved away, taking the children with her.

Odighizuwa and his wife and children had rented a small house just outside Grundy. Trying to make ends meet, Odighizuwa tutored students and also worked other part-time jobs.

David Branham, who works at his family's real estate and insurance business in downtown Grundy, said Odighizuwa had an out-of-state real estate license and was looking for a job at the family business, but it did not have any openings.

"When I saw him after that, I would throw up my hand and wave at him, but we weren't boozing buddies or anything," Branham said.

Odighizuwa found a part-time job at the Vansant Food City working as a maintenance man, the manager said. The manager, who would not give his name, said Odighizuwa worked there a few months before quitting.

Odighizuwa then went to work at Issues and Answers, a market research firm above the Vansant Food City.

Branham said that at one point, a few people, including employees at Buchanan General Hospital, took up a collection for the Odighizuwa family at Christmas. Odighizuwa's wife worked at the hospital.

The departure of his wife, the loss of his children and the failing grades sent Odighizuwa into a well of depression, said law student Kenneth Brown, of Rougemont, N.C. "The last time I really sat and talked to him was last semester, in November. We were at a dance and he came alone. He was really down. All he was saying were negative things."

Other students said Odighizuwa was a loner with an abrasive personality and a chip on his shoulder, convinced that faculty members had it in for him.

Odighizuwa began attending the school again last fall after Sutin agreed to give him another chance, allowing him to re-enroll. Once again, though, according to financial aid director Chris Clifton, Odighizuwa's grades were too poor.

Last week, he was informed that he was being academically dismissed, and he was told his financial aid was being suspended Wednesday.

According to state police, as he left professor Dale Rubin's office, Odighizuwa said, "Pray for me." Then the shooting began.

State Sen. Leslie L. Byrne, D-Fairfax, said the shootings in Grundy point to the need for more gun control.

"A man described as a ticking time bomb was able to get a semiautomatic weapon," Byrne told Senate colleagues yesterday.

"We've heard a lot about homeland security and domestic defense, but the likelihood of being injured by a gun" is far greater than the likelihood of a plane flying into an office building, she said.

But Sen. William C. Wampler Jr., R-Bristol, said now is a time to mourn, not to cast blame.

Yesterday, the town of Grundy and the students and teachers at the law school tried to find solace.

"From a human standpoint, we see no sense in this tragedy," said Parris, the clergyman who led the memorial service attended by about 250 people. "So we find ourselves asking, 'Why? Why does God allow these senseless acts of violence?'*"

Interestingly enough, the gun wielding student who stopped the massacre did not shoot more innocent bystanders, nor was he mowed down by SWAT. ;)

BrianW
04-19-2007, 03:36 PM
Say, take a look at CNN's report on the same incident. For whatever reason, there's no mention of the 'massacre ending revolver.' Guess they didn't like that part....


Peter Odighizuwa, 43, did not enter a plea. A judge ordered a attorney appointed for him and set a court date for March 21.

Authorities said that Odighizuwa, who had flunked out of law school, opened fire with a .380 semiautomatic handgun just after 1 p.m. ET Wednesday.

One of those killed was the dean of Appalachian School of Law, L. Anthony Sutin, 42 -- a former acting assistant U.S. attorney general.

Killed along with Sutin were another faculty member, professor Thomas Blackwell, 41, and a student, Angela Denise Dales, 33, according to state police.

Students apparently tackled the gunman, said Ellen Qualls, press secretary for Virginia Gov. Mark Warner.

Police said the Odighizuwa, from Nigeria, was charged with three counts of capital murder and three counts of use of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

He was being held in the Buchanan County jail, police said.

Authorities said that after Odighizuwa discussed his academic suspension with professor Dale Rubin he told the teacher to pray for him.

Then, police said, Odighizuwa went directly to the offices of Sutin and Blackwell and opened fire with a .38-caliber semi-automatic handgun.

Powder burns on the dean and the professor indicated they were shot at point blank range by the suspected gunman, said Dr. Jack Briggs, a coroner for Buchanan County.

"The dean of the law school had been executed in his office and a professor had been executed in his office," said Briggs. "The man then came down the stairs -- before we got there -- and shot four students."

Police said as Odighizuwa exited the building three other students grabbed and subdued him.

School administrators issued a statement saying they were shocked and saddened by the shooting. Classes were canceled for the rest of the week. A memorial service was set for noon Thursday.

This was Odighizuwa's second attempt at law school. The suspect had flunked out last year, said Briggs, a physician who treated Odighizuwa for stress about six months ago.

"I had no idea that it would affect him this way, however. He was a time bomb waiting to go off," Briggs said.

The three wounded students were taken to Buchanan General Hospital and later transferred to other hospitals for treatment.

All three wounded students are women, said Tim Baylor, spokesman for Wellmont Health System. Two of them were in surgery and the third was in fair condition, he said.
Sutin
Appalachian Law School Dean L. Anthony Sutin was among those killed.

Police said one student was shot in the abdomen and arm. A second student was shot in the throat and the third student suffered a gunshot wound to the chest.

Phillip Allen
04-19-2007, 03:50 PM
I knew about that Brian...I consider it pretty strong evidence of an agenda on the part of the news people

geeman
04-19-2007, 03:54 PM
I recall reading reports on this incident.I recall there was a student that got his own weapon from his vehicle and preceeded to stop the man.No one else was hurt at that point.

Ian McColgin
04-19-2007, 04:56 PM
I love it when people go out of their way to make a false political point about media political correctness.

Bowman’s source about the pistol brandished in submitting the killer was the student, Tracy Bridges, who is a sheriff’s deputy, trained lawman and all that.

The CNN story quoted the police. We don’t know if they mentioned Deputy Sheriff Bridges’ pistol. To assume that either the police or CNN had an agenda is an assumption without evidence. Presumably the police had a lawman to lawman chat with Deputy Bridges. It’s likely that his professional deportment is part of the reason that he did not need to fire his weapon and that no other law officers shot him.

Bowman was a more thorough reporter in that he spoke with Deputy Bridges. Had he not, he’d have only had the police account which in his own piece, but a paragraph above, has the students tackling the gunman and does not mention the gun.

My memory, like geeman’s, is that Bridge’s weapon was mentioned in other national press. No reason here for either gun control or anti-control advocates to get upset about either story.

Tom Montgomery
04-19-2007, 06:55 PM
These sick perpetrators seem to target groups of people who are unlikely to be armed. Do you think that is likely to change?

jack grebe
04-19-2007, 07:08 PM
These sick perpetrators seem to target groups of people who are unlikely to be armed. Do you think that is likely to change?
Then an armed citizenship would seem to be the answer, not removal of firearms

Mrleft8
04-19-2007, 07:21 PM
Nice to know that this tiny town was protected by family values......

LeeG
04-19-2007, 07:26 PM
could we tie this into gettin' the terrists and a culture of life?

Tom Montgomery
04-19-2007, 07:27 PM
Remember the Amish schoolhouse massacre? I don't think their response to this problem has been to arm themselves.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-19-2007, 07:33 PM
I think the american people have the democratic right to arm themselves to the teeth if they want to.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-19-2007, 07:34 PM
Then an armed citizenship would seem to be the answer, not removal of firearms

You sure you want to go down this road.
If the only way for citizens to be safe is to pack heat everyday than we live in a sorry excuse for a society. A society that sick would surely fail because so many necessary activites would be off limits. Who would send their children off to school in such a world? What parent would take their kid to a soccer game if they knew all the adults ringing the field were armed? In fact any big public gathering would be dicey because there could be one lout in the crowd who decided to plug another patron who spilled beer on him.
An armed society is a paranoid society. No exactly a ticket to success.

Tom Montgomery
04-19-2007, 07:35 PM
I think the american people have the democratic right to arm themselves to the teeth if they want to.Sure. I just think it is silly to think we would be any safer as a result.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-19-2007, 07:43 PM
Absolutely correct.

BrianW
04-19-2007, 07:49 PM
I love it when people go out of their way to make a false political point about media political correctness.

Hardly out of my way, it was pointed out to me. However, it's worth considering, as that's a major pastime here, considering motives and such. Unless of course, we're only suppose to consider bad things about conservative groups?

In any case, your in no more position than me to make a judgment as to the omission of a very important fact in the CNN story. My quote only suggested the possibilty...


For whatever reason, there's no mention of the 'massacre ending revolver.' Guess they didn't like that part....

...and I'm not sure how you can claim it's a "false political point" unless you were the writer or the editor of the CNN piece.



Bowman’s source about the pistol brandished in submitting the killer was the student, Tracy Bridges, who is a sheriff’s deputy, trained lawman and all that.

Tracy was attending the college as a student. His actions were professional, but by no means more than can be expected by any civilian with even a modest amount of training.


It’s likely that his professional deportment is part of the reason that he did not need to fire his weapon and that no other law officers shot him.

Maybe, but now your speculating.

In any case, there's one example. Anyone wanna bet there's more. ;)

BrianW
04-19-2007, 07:52 PM
An armed society is a paranoid society. No exactly a ticket to success.

Actually, the quote is...

"An armed society is a polite society."

Yours is just another attempt to play the 'wild west' theory, which has never materialized. Despite that fact, it seems to come up every time.

Broken record....

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-19-2007, 07:53 PM
There is always the idea that no one is armed, and hence that prevents gun deaths...

NAAAAAAAAHHHHH... how ridiculous:D

BrianW
04-19-2007, 07:55 PM
There is always the idea that no one is armed, and hence that prevents gun deaths...

NAAAAAAAAHHHHH... how ridiculous:D

That would be nice, but not realistic.

Tom Montgomery
04-19-2007, 07:55 PM
Yeah, and if a tyrant siezed control of the govenment, how could we effectively revolt?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-19-2007, 07:59 PM
That would be nice, but not realistic.

Which is why your gun deaths are ten times per capita what ours are. Suit yourself.:)

geeman
04-19-2007, 08:02 PM
The idea is,that if I AM armed, I have a better chance of survival, or of helping someone else in trouble.Unarmed I'm just another victim.
If I have my choice I'd rather depend on me then some body else.
My experience has taught me that I cant depend on other people to make things right for me.
You may feel differently,and thats ok.Just dont tell me whats right for me.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-19-2007, 08:04 PM
I'm not... I don't really care what your country and its citizens do about guns. Not my call.

Tom Montgomery
04-19-2007, 08:05 PM
I just don't understand how this would help to prevent school shootings like we have seen. Are you suggesting grade schoolers should be packing heat? No? Middle schoolers? No? High schoolers?

Tom Montgomery
04-19-2007, 08:14 PM
Actually, the quote is...

"An armed society is a polite society."

Yours is just another attempt to play the 'wild west' theory, which has never materialized.I don't think Chuck was intending to repeat a well-known quotation. I think he was stating his personal opinion.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "wild west" theory, but there are certainly neighborhoods in every large American city that I would hesitate to enter. Guess why?

Beowolf
04-19-2007, 08:32 PM
Yeah, and if a tyrant siezed control of the govenment, how could we effectively revolt?

...vote for democrats :D

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Mrleft8
04-19-2007, 08:44 PM
OK..... I'm changing my policy. Everyone over the age of 16 should be required to own a gun.
This should eliminate about 2/3 of the nut cases just in the first month or so. After that the attrition rate will drop at a steadilly slowing rate until only the very fast, and the very smart are left. Eventually, history tells us, that the very smart will prevail. Unfortunately, they will breed amongst themselves by neccesity, creating a whole new litter of imbeciles...

geeman
04-19-2007, 08:48 PM
Belligerence,, thats always helpful.

BrianW
04-19-2007, 09:41 PM
I just don't understand how this would help to prevent school shootings like we have seen. Are you suggesting grade schoolers should be packing heat? No? Middle schoolers? No? High schoolers?

Why yes Tom, that's exactly what we're suggesting. Now go play with your ball, in the street... ;)

BrianW
04-19-2007, 09:47 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by the "wild west" theory, but there are certainly neighborhoods in every large American city that I would hesitate to enter. Guess why?

Hmm... having fun with the 'I don't understand' tactic today are we?

Well if you didn't know that the gun control advocates were predicting mass mayhem and 'wild west' like shoot outs between these new concealed carry permit holders, I'm not seeing the need to enlighten you now. Mainly, because it never happened. Except that is, in the imagination of a certain crowd who brings it up every time we have this debate.

As far as why you don't go in certain neighborhoods... I would think because of criminals. But if you don't go there do to fear of law abiding citizens carrying a firearm on their person, then you have issues best discussed with Ishmael.

geeman
04-19-2007, 10:05 PM
now, thats FUNNYYYYYYYYYYY lol

George Jung
04-19-2007, 10:34 PM
Zingzingzing, Bruin!

Tom Montgomery
04-20-2007, 03:55 AM
As far as why you don't go in certain neighborhoods... I would think because of criminals.Yep. Armed criminals.

As for concealed carry, if you feel safer carrying a weapon at all times, be my guest. But I think your sense of greater safety is an illusion:
States with higher rates of household gun ownership have significantly higher homicide victimization rates for men, women and children.

Our Second Amendment right to bear arms comes at a great cost:

...your gun deaths are ten times per capita what ours are.


http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html

Gun Violence Nationwide

Firearm injuries are the second leading cause of injury-related deaths nationwide, surpassed only by motor vehicle injuries.9 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn9)

In 2004, 29,569 Americans were killed with firearms – in homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings.10 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn10)
In 2005, 69,825 Americans were treated in hospital emergency departments for non-fatal gunshot wounds.11 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn11)
Children and young people under the age of 25 constituted over 40% of all firearm deaths and injuries in 2001.12 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn12)

Every day in the U.S., guns cause the deaths of 19 children and young people under the age of 25. 13 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn13)

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children under age 15 is nearly 12 times higher than it is in 25 other industrialized nations combined.14 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn14)

African Americans make up 13% of the U.S. population,15 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn15) but in 2001 suffered almost 25% of all firearm deaths – and 52% of all firearm homicides.16 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn16)

Firearm homicide is the leading cause of injury-related death for African Americans ages 15-34. 17 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn17)

White males, accounted for about 40% of the U.S. population,18 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn18) and 80% of firearm suicides in 2001.19 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn19)

Once all the direct and indirect medical, legal and societal costs are factored together, the annual cost of gun violence in America amounts to $100 billion.20 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn20)

States with higher rates of household gun ownership have significantly higher homicide victimization rates for men, women and children. 21 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn21)

Homicides and aggravated assault with a firearm both increased by 10% from 2004 to 2006.22 (http://www.icpgv.org/icpgv_facts.html#_ftn22)9 National Center for Health Statistics, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Vital Statistics Reports, Deaths: Final Data for 2003, Vol. 54, No. 13, p. 10, April 19, 2006 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_13.pdf)
10 National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (WISQARS) Injury Mortality Reports, 1999-2004 (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html)
11 National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (WISQARS) Nonfatal Injury Reports (http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html)
12 National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (WISQARS) Injury Mortality Reports, 1999-2004 (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html); National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (WISQARS) Nonfatal Injury Reports (http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html)
13 National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (WISQARS) Injury Mortality Reports, 1999-2004 (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html)
14 U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children--26 Industrialized Countries, MMWR Weekly, Vol. 46, No.5, Feb. 7, 1997 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm)
15 Census Bureau, U.S. Department of Commerce, The Black Population: 2000, Census 2000 Brief, Aug. 200 (http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-5.pdf)
16 National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (WISQARS) Injury Mortality Reports, 1999-2004 (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html)
17Id.
18 Census Bureau, U.S. Department of Commerce, The White Population: 2000, Census 2000 Brief, Aug. 2001 at 3 (http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-4.pdf)
19Id.
20 Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, Gun Violence: The Real Costs, New York: Oxford University Press, 2000, 115.
21 Matthew Miller, David Hemenway, and Deborah Azrael, State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001 -2003, Social Science & Medicine 64 (2007) 656-664.
22 Police Executive Research Forum, Violent Crime in America: 24 Months of Alarming Trends (http://www.policeforum.org/upload/Violent%20Crime%20Report%203707_140194792_39200714 3035.pdf), March 2007

stevebaby
04-20-2007, 05:39 AM
I recall reading reports on this incident.I recall there was a student that got his own weapon from his vehicle and preceeded to stop the man.No one else was hurt at that point. Actually...the gunman was tackled by two unarmed students after he had almost run out of ammunition. One of them contradicts Bridges' account. According to Ted Besen (who tackled the gunman), the gunman had laid his weapon down and raised his arms before any armed students appeared. The deputies assisted to restrain him after he was disarmed and tackled to the ground but it is incorrect to say that they prevented a massacre.
The Virginia State Police reports confirm Besen's account...that the gunman was unarmed by the time the armed police officers appeared.

Ian McColgin
04-20-2007, 06:09 AM
I don't see the various statements as utterly contradictory. Bridges said that he showed his gun and then the killer put his gun down. It's not clear that the killer did this in response to Bridges or even say Bridges. It's not clear whether the other two students knew Bridges had a gun. It's abundantly clear that the killer was subdued by the time the police arrived and whatever Bridges was doing with his gun was no longer an issue.

It's not so much contradictions as inevitably partial views reported at a non-rigorous distance.

Which all feeds the point that those who fancy the coverage of this story exemplifies an anti-gun bias in the media have to manufacctor their evidence first.

Turning anecdotes into evidence of anything is tricky as particulars are elusive and individual factors may be critical.

For example, can we learn with certainty that the killer put his gun down in response to Bridges or simply because he was out of ammunition? Perhaps the latter as he still had enough fight left to slug the first student who got close enough.

Beyond that, how might things have played out were Bridges not a trained lawman with the sense of responsibility and restraint of that training?

I don't see why we can't get a form of gun control rather similar and as well accepted as motor vehicle control - license to operate, registration of the item, some equivalent of "street legal" and "off-road" use, and probably a system of insurance. But it's not a rational debate, but is more about - note Romney's claims of a life of hunting - pandering to paranoia.

stevebaby
04-20-2007, 06:15 AM
Ted Besen (a progun advocate BTW) says that the gun had been put down by the time the armed deputies appeared.
Tim Lambert has more details...
http://timlambert.org/2003/09/0902/
Deltoid » Counting stories about the Appalachian Law School shootings

seanz
04-20-2007, 06:28 AM
Usually I sit on my hands and don't post to the U.S. domestic stuff and I don't mean this to come out pro or con but I really felt for this guy at the time.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002652631_mallshooting29m.html


Victim says mall gunman was "faster on the draw"


The Associated Press


The Associated Press
TACOMA — The man most seriously wounded in the Tacoma Mall shootings said Monday he has a vivid memory of "thunderously loud" shots fired by a gunman who was "faster on the draw than I was."
Brendan McKown, 38, was one of six people shot. A 20-year-old man, who police say was armed with an assault rifle and a machine pistol, has been charged in the Nov. 20 rampage.
McKown, assistant manager of the Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts store at the mall, has legally carried a concealed handgun for years.
McKown's parents said last week that witnesses reported he drew his pistol against the shooter, but police said they had not confirmed that account. In a television interview, McKown recalled saying, " 'Hey, put the weapon down — I think I said, 'Son' — I was going with the other hand to [my] jacket, and he obviously was faster on the draw than I was."
McKown said that if he had acted differently, more people might have gotten hurt.

Copyright © 2005 The Seattle Times Company

Phillip Allen
04-20-2007, 06:34 AM
I don't know how or if this applies seanz but faster on the draw may simply mean more willing to injure others...conversely, slower may indicate an unwillingness to injure others...those who carry concealed handuns seem (to me) to be a lot more empathetic to others and less willing to actually shoot...debunking the notion promoted by some that these concealed carryers are seeking a wild west shoot out...

just a thought

seanz
04-20-2007, 06:48 AM
Seriously Phillip ,not being critical of the guys actions.IIRC he was badly injured.
I'm trying to make the point that he was armed ,at the scene of a massacre type shooting and it still worked out badly.People are assuming that if an armed law abiding citizen is on the scene then things will be different and it ain't necessarily so.

Phillip Allen
04-20-2007, 06:53 AM
I'm afraid that's not much of a sampling.

In fact it compares eaisly to the (now discarded) notion for women not to resist during rapes

seanz
04-20-2007, 07:05 AM
I'm afraid that's not much of a sampling.
Hey it's not like I'm being paid to do this.:D
In fact it compares eaisly to the (now discarded) notion for women not to resist during rapes
Where was that ever a notion?!?!?!?
Not saying 'Resistance is Useless'.Just saying it doesn't guarantee a result.

geeman
04-20-2007, 07:40 AM
We also know that sometimes the police report may leave a few facts out.Its not unknown for a police report to take a slightly different view.They are carefully worded,to present a slant that favors the dept.,esp,when a citizen being armed is involved.

stevebaby
04-20-2007, 08:00 AM
We also know that sometimes the police report may leave a few facts out.Its not unknown for a police report to take a slightly different view.They are carefully worded,to present a slant that favors the dept.,esp,when a citizen being armed is involved.The State Police report, as quoted by Lambert, apparently states that the gunman was tackled by the two unarmed students (Ted Besen and Todd Ross), that the gunman was disarmed by the time the armed deputies arrived with a gun and handcuffs,and that the gun was empty by then.
Besen stated that the gunman was unaware that anyone had a gun until after he was disarmed and subdued.
You may be correct about the police slanting their report in favour of the police officers who have been given credit for preventing a further massacre...when the other evidence is that he had already been rendered ineffective by his own action in putting the gun down before he was aware that anyone else was armed, and by the two unarmed students who then tackled him.

Sam F
04-20-2007, 08:01 AM
Say, take a look at CNN's report on the same incident. For whatever reason, there's no mention of the 'massacre ending revolver.' Guess they didn't like that part....

Thanks Brian. I too remembered this incident in connection with the VA Tech massacre.
FWIW, I remember reading about this in the Washington Post and my local paper. What I don't remember is any mention of student's guns being used to subdue the shooter.
It would seem that bit of information was censored.
Some things are just to dangerous for the public to know.

stevebaby
04-20-2007, 08:06 AM
Thanks Brian. I too remembered this incident in connection with the VA Tech massacre.
FWIW, I remember reading about this in the Washington Post and my local paper. What I don't remember is any mention of student's guns being used to subdue the shooter.
It would seem that bit of information was censored.
Some things are just to dangerous for the public to know. Not censored...just didn't happen.
The killer was subdued by two unarmed students.
That's pretty dangerous knowledge...no?

BrianW
04-20-2007, 10:33 AM
Yep. Armed criminals.

As for concealed carry, if you feel safer carrying a weapon at all times, be my guest. But I think your sense of greater safety is an illusion:

Our Second Amendment right to bear arms comes at a great cost:

Interesting data, none of which addressed concealed carry statistics. I can only suspect that's because finding negative statistics concerning concealed carry mishaps is hard. Probably not impossible, as this is the 'net.

BrianW
04-20-2007, 10:39 AM
Not censored...just didn't happen.
The killer was subdued by two unarmed students.
That's pretty dangerous knowledge...no?

Given the fact that there are various reports on the incident, which don't agree, I find it incredible you can blatantly state that it never happened.

Sort of like Ian stating that the CNN omission was not driven by a personal agenda.

Nobody here knows these things for sure, so why act as if we do?

Ian McColgin
04-20-2007, 10:58 AM
Part of reporting is a tender effort towards accuracy. Compare my remark,

"The CNN story quoted the police. We don’t know if they mentioned Deputy Sheriff Bridges’ pistol. To assume that either the police or CNN had an agenda is an assumption without evidence. "

to the remarkably incorrect interpretation

". . . Ian stating that the CNN omission was not driven by a personal agenda."

There are certainly instances of a paper spiking a story or important elements of the story but even wildly ideological papers like the Wall Street Journal don't do that very often with the news side. Errors are more often due to haste and perhaps carelessness, sometimes not checking a highly biased sourse, but this story in its vissesetudes of was the student-deputy's gun a factor is not a demonstrated example of anyone's personal agenda. The only personal agendae in this thread are those who would attack and those who would defend (albeit temporately) the press. Knowing my personal agenda here, I've tried to point accuratly to things that everyone here can view and judge. Rather like a reporter.

BrianW
04-20-2007, 11:04 AM
Another case of an armed citizen stopping a school shooting spree...


Murder of Mother

On the 1st of October 1997 Luke Woodham, then 16, brutally beat and stabbed his mother, Mary Woodham to death. When put on trial in court, he claimed to have not remembered killing his mother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Woodham

[edit] October 1: Shooting at Pearl High School

Woodham drove his mother's car to his high school. Wearing a blue denim jacket, he made no attempt to hide his rifle. When he entered the school, he walked toward Lydia Dew and shot her thinking her to be his former girlfriend Christina Menefee, whom he also shot. Both girls died. He went on to wound 7 others before Joel Myrick, the assistant principal, retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham while he was trying to drive off campus. When Myrick asked Woodham of his motive, he replied "Life has wronged me, sir". Woodham had been planning to drive to the Pearl Middle School to continue his murderous rampage, only Myrick's intervention prevented this from happening.

[edit] Gun Control

Myrick, the assistant principal, is a former Marine and had a valid Concealed Pistol License, authorizing him to carry a handgun; however, due to the law, Myrick was not allowed to carry his pistol while on school property. When Woodham began shooting in the school, Myrick was forced to run over 1/4 mile to his truck to retrieve his weapon. He then had to sprint back to the school, where he confronted Woodham.

[edit] Charges

Woodham confessed to shooting his classmates, but as before mentioned, he claimed to not remember killing his mother. He pleaded insanity, but the jury rejected the insanity defense, and instead found him guilty.

A separate jury in Philadelphia, Mississippi, convicted Woodham of murdering his mother, 50-year-old Mary Woodham, who was beaten and stabbed. He was sentenced to life in prison for that killing. Defense attorneys argued in both trials that Woodham was legally insane at the time of the slayings.

Also, another example of time wasted while the good guy has to go to his vehicle to retrieve the firearm.

No innocent bystanders shoot by the good guy, who was incidentally not mowed down by SWAT.

stevebaby
04-20-2007, 11:10 AM
Given the fact that there are various reports on the incident, which don't agree, I find it incredible you can blatantly state that it never happened.

Sort of like Ian stating that the CNN omission was not driven by a personal agenda.

Nobody here knows these things for sure, so why act as if we do?I find it incredible that you would blatantly state that this is a case of "an armed citizen stopping a school mass killing",which you did in the first post in this thread, without the qualification that "there are various reports on the incident,which don't agree."
The Virginia police confirm what Besen and Ross (the first two people to tackle the unarmed gunman) have said...that the gun was unloaded and not in the possession of the shooter when the armed deputies arrived with a gun. It would appear that the only differing account is that of Deputy Bridges who appears to have exaggerated his own part in the incident.
Why do you believe Deputy Bridges's account and not that of the other witnesses?
If you don't know these things for sure...why start a thread stating as a fact that "an armed citizen stopped a mass school killing"?

BrianW
04-20-2007, 11:11 AM
Part of reporting is a tender effort towards accuracy. Compare my remark,

"The CNN story quoted the police. We don’t know if they mentioned Deputy Sheriff Bridges’ pistol. To assume that either the police or CNN had an agenda is an assumption without evidence. "

to the remarkably incorrect interpretation

". . . Ian stating that the CNN omission was not driven by a personal agenda."

Perhaps I've been unkind towards you Ian. :)

But it was your comment...


I love it when people go out of their way to make a false political point about media political correctness.

...to which I was referring. If were both making 'assumptions without evidence' then who knows if my point was false?

BrianW
04-20-2007, 11:20 AM
The Virginia police confirm what Besen and Ross (the first two people to tackle the unarmed gunman) have said...that the gun was unloaded and not in the possession of the shooter when the armed deputies arrived with a gun.

Steve,

Which 'armed deputies' are you referring too? Responding police units, or the off duty cop attending class. Given the use of the plural 'deputies' I assume you mean on-duty cops responding. In which case I'm not sure why we're even discussing this, because it's obvious the shooter was disarmed before they arrived.


It would appear that the only differing account is that of Deputy Bridges who appears to have exaggerated his own part in the incident.
Why do you believe Deputy Bridges's account and not that of the other witnesses?

Since we all agree that trained police are more experienced in these matters, it goes without saying that the testimony of the student/officer is more likely to be accurate than that of the two students who were busy tackling the shooter.

BrianW
04-20-2007, 11:32 AM
Here's one, with another off-duty cop involved. Man, I'm really starting to appreciate off-duty cops. :)


SALT LAKE CITY, Feb. 13, 2007
Ogden city police master officer Ken Hammond addresses the media Tuesday, Feb. 13, 2007, in Ogden. (AP Photo/Douglas C. Pizac)


"I feel like I was there and did what I had to do."
Ken Hammond, off-duty police officer


(CBS/AP) An off-duty police officer having an early Valentine's Day dinner with his wife was credited Tuesday with helping stop a rampage in a crowded shopping mall by an 18-year-old gunman who killed five people before he was cut down.

A day after the shooting, investigators struggled to figure out why a trench-coated Sulejmen Talovic opened fire on shoppers with a supremely calm look on his face.

The teenager wanted to "to kill a large number of people" and probably would have killed many more if not for the off-duty officer, Police Chief Chris Burbank said.

Ken Hammond, an off-duty officer from Ogden, north of Salt Lake City, jumped up from his seat at a restaurant after hearing gunfire and cornered the gunman, exchanging fire with him until other officers arrived, Burbank said.

"There is no question that his quick actions saved the lives of numerous other people," the police chief said.

"I feel like I was there and did what I had to do," Hammond told reporters. After spotting the gunman, he told his pregnant wife to take cover in the restaurant and went to confront the suspect.

Police said it was not immediately clear who fired the shot that killed Talovic.

Talovic had a backpack full of ammunition, a shotgun and a .38-caliber pistol, police said. Investigators knew little about Talovic, except than he lived in Salt Lake City with his mother and three younger sisters, police said.

Police say they have no motive for the rampage. Talovic had some minor juvenile incidents and dropped out of the Salt Lake City school system in November of 2004, reports CBS News correspondent Sandra Hughes.

"He was such a good boy. We don't know what happened," says Ajka Omerovic, Talovic's aunt.

Talovic drove to the Trolley Square shopping center — a century-old former trolley barn with winding hallways, brick floors and wrought-iron balconies, and immediately killed two people, followed by a third victim as he came through a door, Burbank said. Five other people were then shot in a gift shop, he said.


Then again, Officer Hammond was just probably trying to make himself look good in the report. :rolleyes:

PatCox
04-20-2007, 12:00 PM
40,000 people a year manage to kill themselves or others with an automobile. An armed citizenry would made that number pale in comparison, between accidental discharges, mistakes, panicked misjudgments, drunken anger, jealousy, and just plain stupidity. This world is just too full of idiots and assholes for any sane person to think it would be safer if every idiot and asshole had a gun.

stevebaby
04-20-2007, 12:15 PM
Steve,

Which 'armed deputies' are you referring too? Responding police units, or the off duty cop attending class. Given the use of the plural 'deputies' I assume you mean on-duty cops responding. In which case I'm not sure why we're even discussing this, because it's obvious the shooter was disarmed before they arrived.



Since we all agree that trained police are more experienced in these matters, it goes without saying that the testimony of the student/officer is more likely to be accurate than that of the two students who were busy tackling the shooter.The armed deputies to whom I referred were Tracy Bridges and Mikael Gross who assisted Besen and Todd Ross after they had tackled the disarmed gunman. Bridges and Gross were students. They were also police officers.
"Virginia State Police spokesman Stater said the armed students did assist after Besen and another student, Todd Ross tackled the gunman. Bridges sat on the suspect while Gross, also armed, provided handcuffs he had gotten from his car."
"But to Stater's view, the biggest heroes were Besen and Ross, the unarmed men who lunged at Odighizuwa".
The Virginia State Police would have interviewed all witnesses as part of the investigation in to the murders. Deputy Bridges was not in a position to be interviewing witnesses since he was, in a sense, a victim.
The Virginia State Police obviously accepted Besen's account (which contradicts that of Bridges)...do they have enough training and experience to form an accurate picture of the circumstances surrounding the disarmament of the gunman?

Wild Dingo
04-20-2007, 12:39 PM
then there are the road rage pissed of pedestrians irriated drivers and bicycle riders depressed drunk or stoned whatevers jilted lovers wanna be lovers etc etc etc

An armed citizenship is a dangerous walking timb bomb.


OK..... I'm changing my policy. Everyone over the age of 16 should be required to own a gun.
This should eliminate about 2/3 of the nut cases just in the first month or so. After that the attrition rate will drop at a steadilly slowing rate until only the very fast, and the very smart are left. Eventually, history tells us, that the very smart will prevail. Unfortunately, they will breed amongst themselves by neccesity, creating a whole new litter of imbeciles...

Actually Id think most of the nutcases would target the smart and intellegent who they have a problem with then theyd start or rather continue with other nutcases till only a few nutcases would be left and they would get all depressed and shoot themselves... mmmm heres an idea move all the "smart and intellegent" people to the maldives or mauritius or some such and leave the nutcases to themselves for a year and well problem solved eh? ;)

Acatually say we leave the ones in that white palace behind too... nah not going there... but it would sure cure a few problems!:D

Sorry couldnt resist

Now.. I wonder how many OTHER people at those venues quoted were also packing but just freaked out and didnt do anything?... or what about those hefty blokes walking along BEHIND the bloke with the gun? why didnt they do something?

Just wandering thoughts :rolleyes:

stevebaby
04-20-2007, 12:45 PM
Here's one, with another off-duty cop involved. Man, I'm really starting to appreciate off-duty cops. :)



Then again, Officer Hammond was just probably trying to make himself look good in the report. :rolleyes:How many "on duty" police were there at the Mall when the gunman was shot ? Three?
Did Officer Hammond actually shoot the gunman to stop him, or did he distract him until on duty police arrived?
Nobody will ever know how many lives were saved because Officer Hammond was carrying his service pistol that day. What we do know for certain is that five people died because Sulejman Talovic was armed that day.

Rick Starr
04-20-2007, 12:47 PM
Apparently the folks at Roanoke Firearms are getting death threats and so forth.


Note from all of us at Roanoke Firearms:

To those of you who came to this site to send messages of encouragement -- we appreciate your concern, kindness, and goodwill. We are as troubled by this trajedy as much as anyone, except, of course, those who lost friends or loved ones, and your words of support mean a great deal to us.

To those of you who came here to send hateful emails -- you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how misguided and inappropriate it may be. How many of you called the company who sold Timothy McVeigh the diesel fuel or fertilizer he used to make the bomb in Oklahoma City, or the company who rented him the Ryder truck? Should we outlaw diesel fuel and trucks? How many of you read about a drunk driver who crosses the center line and kills a family, then call the dealership who sold him the car? Should we outlaw automobiles? If we ban silverware, do you think there would be no more obesity?

One individual bears the responsibility for the heinous acts committed at Virginia Tech, and that is Cho Seung-Hui. If you think otherwise, you have not thought this through. Please be adult enough to reach out and help

someone in need, rather than leaving anonymous, vitriolic emails on our site.

God bless us all.


http://roanokefirearms.com/

I would add the question, Where would we be as wooden boat afficianados if we had chosen to address lynching by chopping down all the trees?"

As uncomfortable as the burden of responsibility can be sometimes, I will always choose it over the alternative.

"I'm going to kill you for selling a gun to that man!" What spectacular idiots.

BrianW
04-20-2007, 01:05 PM
Well folks, there's 3 examples of legally armed citizens stopping a mass killing in progress.

In none of the cases did the legally armed citizen kill any innocent bystanders, nor were they mowed down by SWAT.

PatCox
04-20-2007, 01:41 PM
Mass murdering whackos are very rare. Drunken arguments, road rage, clumsiness, and stupidity are very common. If the citizenry were all armed, the number of deaths from the lethal mixture of average dimbulb citizen + handgun would far exceed the number of people killed in high profile incidents of mass murder.

Ian McColgin
04-20-2007, 02:37 PM
Do we have “3 examples of legally armed citizens stopping a mass killing in progress”?

Deputy Sheriff and student Tracey Bridges’s weapon may or may not have had anything to due with a killer’s subdual.

Brendon McKown failed to draw his weapon fast enough and was shot.

Vice Principal Myrick got his gun and subdued his man.

Off-duty Officer Hammond helped subdue a dangerous lunatic.

So, four instances, all involving great courage. Two are indeed citizens. Two are off-duty law men, who are commonly armed, often by department regulation, and are expected to act at any time. One of the citizens failed and was severely wounded. One of the law men may or may not have had any effect on the outcome.

In baseball, batting 500 is good. But it’s not so good here.

I really think that it does not advance an argument for or against gun control to drift off into speculation masquerading as fact about hypothesized personal bias in the press. Irrelevancies, especially those which prove groundless, only undermine the side making them.

I know I’m a bit hard here on BrianW, but only as hard as he was on CNN. Vigorous debate is fine.

casem
04-20-2007, 02:55 PM
If the citizenry were all armed, the number of deaths from the lethal mixture of average dimbulb citizen + handgun would far exceed the number of people killed in high profile incidents of mass murder.

Hi Pat, this article seems to contradict what you have said.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288

Sam F
04-20-2007, 03:10 PM
Not censored...just didn't happen.
The killer was subdued by two unarmed students.
That's pretty dangerous knowledge...no?

"The killer was subdued by two unarmed students." Yep that's the way I remember reading it in the Post. My reaction then was: "Them was some BRAVE fellas!"
Frankly, the version involving another gun is a lot more believable.

Phillip Allen
04-20-2007, 05:02 PM
40,000 people a year manage to kill themselves or others with an automobile. An armed citizenry would made that number pale in comparison, between accidental discharges, mistakes, panicked misjudgments, drunken anger, jealousy, and just plain stupidity. This world is just too full of idiots and assholes for any sane person to think it would be safer if every idiot and asshole had a gun.


" An armed citizenry would made that number pale in comparison"

Pat, have you any idea at all how outrageous such a foolish comment is?! The pity is that you will now act on your "golden truth" with personal action (perhaps voting or petitioning or just passing on such stupidities to other fools)

Further, I believe there is likely someone who will belive the suggestion and not question its foundless promotion...that is an irresponsible thing to say!

Tom Montgomery
04-20-2007, 05:19 PM
Interesting data, none of which addressed concealed carry statistics. I can only suspect that's because finding negative statistics concerning concealed carry mishaps is hard.I did not post the data to debate your right to carry a concealed weapon. I posted the data to challenge Robert A. Heinlen's unexamined premise, "An armed society is a polite society," that you quoted. My remark, "there are certainly neighborhoods in every large American city that I would hesitate to enter. Guess why?" was also intended as a response to your Heinlen quotation.

I just think it is important to point out that our Second Amendment right to bear arms, as currently interpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court, comes at a tremendous annual cost in lives. You state that three incidents from 1997, 2002, and 2007 illustrate how the right of "concealed carry" saves lives. I am arguing that over 25,000 annual U.S. firearm deaths must be included in your equation; some 250,000 lives lost in the 10 years that span the three incidents you cite.

A minor observation: two of your examples involved off-duty police officers. Those two situations would have played out as they did even if you had no right to carry a concealed weapon.

Rick Starr
04-20-2007, 05:20 PM
People see the world as they see themselves. Generally speaking, if people wouldn't trust themselves with a firearm, they won't trust anyone else with one. Likewise, people who feel they are responsible enough to own a firearm generally feel that most other people are, or can be, similarly trustworthy.

Phillip Allen
04-20-2007, 05:42 PM
Tom, I have lived in an armed society for over 40 years...construction. Virtually every man (very rarely women) on a construction site is armed! I’ve seen arguments but there is an invisible line that I've only seen crossed maybe twice in those years...one involved me directly when a man raised a 24 ounce framing hammer over my head in a gesture that needed very little extension to kill me...all the while his buddies sandwiched me in to prevent my escape...I dealt with it by putting my chest against his and getting on the inside of the arc of his stroke...he chose not to follow through. All through those years of countless thousands of interactions there has always been a politeness which pervaded the site...all men...all armed in various ways...all recognized the other guy could fight back...polite

BrianW
04-20-2007, 06:26 PM
Do we have “3 examples of legally armed citizens stopping a mass killing in progress”?

Yes we do.


Deputy Sheriff and student Tracey Bridges’s weapon may or may not have had anything to due with a killer’s subdual.

Well the shooter held onto until his pistol until the off-duty cop showed up with a revolver. You gotta be awfully stubborn not to see the connection.


Brendon McKown failed to draw his weapon fast enough and was shot.

I didn't mention him in this thread. It doesn't fit the profile. The 'bad guy' was only out to shoot his own son (if I'm thinking of the right story, it's nothing I posted.) So I don't know why you've included it. In any case, he was stopped, but a great cost.


Vice Principal Myrick got his gun and subdued his man.

Not just his 'man', but a mass murderer about to go kill more.


Off-duty Officer Hammond helped subdue a dangerous lunatic.

Yep.


So, four instances, all involving great courage. Two are indeed citizens. Two are off-duty law men,...

Cops are also citizens, just slightly more trained, but not super heros.


In baseball, batting 500 is good. But it’s not so good here.

Sorry, I'm batting 1000%. You and Stevebabys attempts to change the facts with minor points hasn't changed a thing.


I really think that it does not advance an argument for or against gun control to drift off into speculation masquerading as fact about hypothesized personal bias in the press. Irrelevancies, especially those which prove groundless, only undermine the side making them.

Still stuck on the 'press' issue eh? Kinda sad, as that was such a minor point in my post. But, attacking minor points has been you and Steves tactic all along.

PatCox
04-20-2007, 10:58 PM
Its not that I don't trust myself with a gun and therefore don't trust others, this isn't projection. Its simple observation of reality, 50% of the people in the world are below average in intelligence. If the prospect of every dumb, mean moron in america walking around armed doesn't concern you, you are the one projecting. Most gun enthusiasts in my experience take it very seriously and are very responsible. But just because you might be very responsible doesn't mean everyone will be. The fault might be yours for thinking people will be.

Canada is the most interesting data point to look at in this debate. You might hate Michael Moore's bowling for Columbine movie, but he raises a really great issue at the end. Gun ownership is actually higher in Canada than the US, yet gun violence is much much lower. Why is that? The answer to that question, it seems to me, is the key to this debate.

geeman
04-21-2007, 12:45 AM
Ok, let me get this straight,someone here said ALL citizens should be armed"? I missed that post.
These arguments seem to always go back to "ALL people that carry guns are idiots"
Very seldom is there mentioned in the press where an LEGALLY armed citizen has screwed up. I dont say it never happens , but the reactions I see here, are way over the top.
You people that dont want to carry a firearm, thats fine, dont carry one.If your afraid of it or afraid you dont know how to handle it, your right, you shouldnt have one.
But know this, in your daily life you come across or come into contact with armed people all the time and you never know it.Because on the whole their responsible people just like you, but they happen to have a gun with them, that could help save your life someday.Of course if your the type that has to worry about something constantly, maybe you should stay home where its safe.But IS IT REALLY SAFE AT HOME?

geeman
04-21-2007, 12:50 AM
One more thing,,,,,,,,,,,
I would not want to live in any country that says I cant protect myself when I need to.That says I have to wait on "somebody" else to come "save" me if I need assistance.I dont trust those "somebodies" to be able to be there WHEN I NEED THEM. It does nobody any good if the "somebodies" show up 30 to 1 hour later.All the "somebodies" can do at that point is write down all the damage that was done while they were "on the way"
I much prefer to depend on myself.Because in the end your all you have.
If your comfortable waiting for "assistance" thats fine with me.BUT I'M NOT, NOT BY A LONG SHOT.
I will "assist" myself,and their still free to do the paperwork when they finally get there.And I feel I'll have a much better chance of being there to WATCH THEM FILL THE PAPERWORK OUT.

Tom Montgomery
04-21-2007, 01:34 AM
IS IT REALLY SAFE AT HOME?How safe your home is corellates to whether you keep a gun in it.

But not in the way you think, I suspect: http://www.upenn.edu/researchatpenn/article.php?678&hlt

geeman
04-21-2007, 02:03 AM
There are only 2 people in my house.My wife and I.Nobody else lives here.
My wife is completely comfortable around guns and is a fine shot herself, better then I am with a long gun in fact.I can think of nobody else I'd rather have backing me up then my own wife.She doesnt panic like I witnessed 2 rookie cops do when we wound up in a situation facing a shotgun aimed at us.The female rookie was too scared to move and just stood there with her hands in her pockets. The male rookie was pointing his revolver at the guy, with his hand shaking so violently that I knew that if he discharged his weapon , he stood a snowballs chance of hitting his target.The only weapon capable of stopping the guy,, was mine.We got thru it, but just barely.
I know the statistics about shootings by accident in homes, I get it,so I dont need to see the link.I know the law,and do not believe in "shoot 1st ask questions later"
Suicide,,,,,,,,So I shouldnt have a gun because I might commit suicide?Uncle Sam should save me from ?? ME?
Sorry, I dont buy that one.You dont trust YOU?Then by all means dont buy a gun!!!!!!
I'll take my chances on my deciding to commit suicide,,,,,,on the other hand,some of these posts are kinda driving me crazy, preaching constantly to me about what I should be doing.
I'm perfectly comfortable in my home.I trust my wife and her judgment,shes a fine "thinker" doesnt panic easily,knows weapons,and is a fine shot.
Do I think she'd make the right choices in a panic situation? YOU BETCHA!
I watched my wife disarm a man that was pointing a gun at another man and was intending to kill him. for tresspassing.She took the gun and ordered the guy to go home
Ya I trust my wife,more then anybody else I know..
Anything else?

Tom Montgomery
04-21-2007, 02:15 AM
Nope. I've no doubt that you are a responsible gun-owner and that your particular household situation reduces your chances of death by firearm to zero. This doesn't mean the study I cited is incorrect. It just means that you and your household are an exception.

You and BrianW may feel personally safer owning and carrying fireams, but it is merely your subjective feeling. The evidence cited in support of your belief is always anecdotal. No statistics that I know of back up your belief. I believe your sense of enhanced safety is an illusion.

There is no statistical evidence that I am aware of suggesting that U.S. Society is safer because you own and carry firearms.

geeman
04-21-2007, 02:26 AM
Your right, I cant protect "society" I can only protect my wife and I.Or she, me.
So, to make sure I understand you correctly,,,,
You feel that your much safer because you cant defend yourself,,,,,,
Your safer because you have to call 911,and wait for assistance. That you can put everything on "hold" until "assistance "arrives.
To each his own.I dont understand your logic , buts its your life, so far.
Go right ahead do it your way.
I hope it never happens and your never faced with the scenario of a guy busting in your front door,,of course you tell him to wait by the door until your "assistance" arrives.I'm sure the guy will accommodate you.
If you can live with that, fine by me.Its not good enough for me, I'll do it my way.I trust me and my wife much more then any police force which arrives 30 min to an hour later.
To me its sounds as if you prefer to play the odds and assume it'll never happen in the 1st place.I hope your right,because if your wrong,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Tom Montgomery
04-21-2007, 02:35 AM
I accepted the fact a long time ago that I live in society that is more dangerous than the rest of the developed world. The statistics suggest that this is because of the proliferation of firearms in the U.S. It is simply a fact of life in this country due to the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

I am not advocating that anyone take away your guns. I have not, in this thread or any other.

But over 25,000 annual deaths by firearms in this country is horrifying, is it not? This particular Constitutional right comes at a great cost.

Oh, and yes. I do have the means to defend myself from an intruder despite not owning a firearm. It would be a BIG mistake to enter my home uninvited.

geeman
04-21-2007, 02:37 AM
Many years ago, My dog woke me ,some one was trying to get in our back door.My wife was sound asleep beside me.
I went downstairs and sure enough, some idiot was trying to jimmy my back door.
I pointed my 357 at the door and calmly informed the guy that I did have a 357 pointed at his gut and I would shoot him IF he insisted on entering the house.And I said it loudly.Apparently he thought it over and decided on easier pickings somewhere else.
I'm quite sure he did go in a house somewhere that night,maybe the house was occupied, maybe not. But he didnt come in MY HOUSE.And he went away still breathing.

BrianW
04-21-2007, 02:44 AM
Yeah, your okay Geeman, as judged by Tom. Cause you know, that's the real key... some folks want the power over how you run your life. :)

I love the language used... :)

"it is merely your subjective feeling"

"evidence cited in support of your belief is always anecdotal"

"No statistics that I know of back up your belief"

"your sense of enhanced safety is an illusion"


Really, I do!

When the debate swings so far from reality, it's just not worth trying to come back to center.

You guys have a nice day.

geeman
04-21-2007, 02:49 AM
I know Brian, it'd be funny if it wasnt so damn frustrating,,,,,,

Tom Montgomery
04-21-2007, 02:50 AM
Lies! Damn Lies! And Statistics! LOL!

You guys have a nice day as well. :)

Ian McColgin
04-21-2007, 06:58 AM
I raised the issue of the press because an unwarrented assertion of bias was made about a particular CNN story. That assertion has been thoroughly debunked.

I did modify the criteria from mass killer to any armed would-be killer because the draw-not-fast-enough story had been mentioned and to leave it out of the general debate is data picking. But again, these are anecdoted, not data. The data establish that firearms kill people. What policy you draw from those data is another matter.

skuthorp
04-22-2007, 11:32 PM
Well, given that an armed citizenry is a fact and unlikely to be changed, how about making gun ownership a RESPONSIBILITY, a privelige rather than a right. Regular drill, gun safety, organised shooting comps, etc. as part of the privelige. The situation certainly requires thinking outside the square as such situations will continue to occur. It's disengenuous to equate gun casualties with auto caused injuries, apples and oranges there. How about putting it on the NRA to come up with a program?

BrianW
04-23-2007, 12:05 AM
How about putting it on the NRA to come up with a program?


That of course is a great idea, I suggest a quick lesson on the origins of the NRA. Here's a start...




Dismayed by the lack of marksmanship shown by their troops, Union veterans Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate formed the National Rifle Association in 1871. The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis," according to a magazine editorial written by Church.

After being granted a charter by the state of New York on November 17, 1871, the NRA was founded. Civil War Gen. Ambrose Burnside, who was also the former governor of Rhode Island and a U.S. Senator, became the fledgling NRA's first president.

An important facet of the NRA's creation was the development of a practice ground. In 1872, with financial help from New York state, a site on Long Island, the Creed Farm, was purchased for the purpose of building a rifle range. Named Creedmoor, the range opened a year later, and it was there that the first annual matches were held.

Political opposition to the promotion of marksmanship in New York forced the NRA to find a new home for its range. In 1892, Creedmoor was deeded back to the state and NRA's matches moved to Sea Girt, New Jersey.

The NRA's interest in promoting the shooting sports among America's youth began in 1903 when NRA Secretary Albert S. Jones urged the establishment of rifle clubs at all major colleges, universities and military academies. By 1906, NRA's youth program was in full swing with more than 200 boys competing in matches at Sea Girt that summer. Today, youth programs are still a cornerstone of the NRA, with more than one million youth participating in NRA shooting sports events and affiliated programs with groups such as 4-H, the Boy Scouts of America, the American Legion, U.S. Jaycees and others.

Due to the overwhelming growth of NRA's shooting programs, a new range was needed. Gen. Ammon B. Crichfield, Adjutant General of Ohio, had begun construction of a new shooting facility on the shores of Lake Erie, 45 miles east of Toledo, Ohio. Camp Perry became the home of the annual National Matches, which have been the benchmark for excellence in marksmanship ever since. With nearly 6,000 people competing annually in pistol, smallbore and highpower events, the National Matches are one of the biggest sporting events held in the country today.

Through the association's magazine, The American Rifleman, members were kept abreast of new firearms bills, although the lag time in publishing often prevented the necessary information from going out quickly. In response to repeated attacks on the Second Amendment rights, NRA formed the Legislative Affairs Division in 1934. While NRA did not lobby directly at this time, it did mail out legislative facts and analyses to members, whereby they could take action on their own. In 1975, recognizing the critical need for political defense of the Second Amendment, NRA formed the Institute for Legislative Action, or ILA.

Meanwhile, the NRA continued its commitment to training, education and marksmanship. During World War II, the association offered its ranges to the government, developed training materials, encouraged members to serve as plant and home guard members and developed training materials for industrial security. NRA members even reloaded ammunition for those guarding war plants. Incidentally, the NRA's call to help arm Britain in 1940 resulted in the collection of more than 7,000 firearms for Britain's defense against potential invasion by Germany (Britain had virtually disarmed itself with a series of gun control laws enacted between World War I and World War II).

After the war, the NRA concentrated its efforts on another much-needed arena for education and training: the hunting community....

Wanna know more, here's the link...

http://www.nrahq.org/history.asp

skuthorp
04-23-2007, 02:37 AM
I'll read the rest later Brian, but it seems that you have an ongoing problem of private ownership without resposibility, (and I know that's a simplification) and a management strategy is needed. If you have inapropriate persons owning firearms then the NRA or club admin might pick them early.

BrianW
04-23-2007, 03:02 AM
Well, it's an interesting concept, giving gun ownership regulation to a private enterprise, but I don't think either side will go for it.

skuthorp
04-23-2007, 03:16 AM
I'v got to go, but I thought that would fit in with the American system very well. And if they stuff up then there's a private enterprise to sue as well, the Govt can say "Well, don't ask us, its a business matter." Not only that but the NRA would be a responsible authority not a pressure group, an interesting change of attitude for them. Frankly I don't think they'd touch it with a barge pole!
It's not for a foriegn national to suggest it, so why don't you see what your Congressman has got to say?

Pericles
04-23-2007, 05:25 AM
The right to bear arms was also an Englishman's right up to WW1. The English Bill of Rights 1688 for English Protestants (and other Acts confirmed the rights of English Catholics).
http://www.paulbirch.net/TheRightToBearArms.html

I am for that right to be given back to us. When the law abiding public is unarmed, the criminals prey on them with their firearms.

If I cannot lawfully bear arms in the UK, I should still know how to use them, so a trip to the Czech Republic with Israeli Krav Maga instructors seems a good idea. http://www.kravmagauk.co.uk/

Weapons, training, unarmed combat and a warrior's ethic are essential, no more now than in the past. http://www.regia.org/seeusnext.htm#next

A Nordic take on training. http://www.iceandfire.us/

This is a sensible man. http://jonjayray.blogspot.com/

Pericles

BrianW
04-23-2007, 11:29 AM
It's not for a foriegn national to suggest it, so why don't you see what your Congressman has got to say?

I said it was 'interesting' not good. ;)