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Memphis Mike
04-16-2007, 10:02 PM
I've been really busy today and the horror of what happened in VA is just starting to set in.

Where, as a society of supposedly civilized people have we gone wrong?

Something is terribly wrong when a kid feels the need to pick up a gun and murder 32 innocent classmates. It's bone chilling.

It's not just this case. It's everywhere. Kids using deadly weapons to settle their differences.

A month ago, a friend of mine had a son that went to a party. He got in a fight over a girl with another boy.....he was only nineteen. He got the best of this other kid in the initial fight. The other kid went out to his truck and came back with a knife and stabbed my friend's son to death.:(

What the hell is wrong with us?

I think we should all say a prayer tonight for the victims and their families.

We should all say a prayer for our society. It's in one horrible mess.

I strongly believe in the power of prayer.

That's all I know to do.

bamamick
04-16-2007, 10:27 PM
who did something of the same. One of the nicest guys I have ever worked with. If you were to list everyone I have ever known and then choose the one who shot a man point blank in the chest with a shotgun he would have been about the last one I would have ever picked. Now he is sitting in a prison cell waiting to die. Unbelieveable.

Someone asked on another thread why we let this stuff bother us when 30 people die a day in Iraq and Afghanistan? Because as at odds as many of us are with the war in the Middle East, with any war any where, it is a war and it is understood that people die. This kind of thing just makes no sense. I have three daughters who sat through classes today at their respective colleges. Three daughters who I love with all of my heart and who I have such great hopes for. The parents of all of those kids (including the kid who did this) all felt the same for THEIR kids. Never would I have thought that something like this would happen, yet it has happened before. It just leaves you shaken.

I don't know, Mike. I just don't know.

Mickey Lake

rufustr
04-16-2007, 10:32 PM
A terrible tragedy.
Our local media has been full of it all day.

Memphis Mike
04-16-2007, 11:16 PM
I think that people have become de-sensitized to things like this. I'm guilty also. I mean it's happened so much now it's like an everyday occurance.:(

S/V Laura Ellen
04-16-2007, 11:35 PM
I think we should all say a prayer tonight for the victims and their families.

We should all say a prayer for our society. It's in one horrible mess.


Amen Reverend!

Wild Dingo
04-17-2007, 04:43 AM
I think that people have become de-sensitized to things like this. (

And there I think is it in a nutshell... believe it or not WE our generation has through their constant desire for progress and technology created the very things by which WE our generation has achieved this sad state of affairs

Now I know some people will disagree with me here and thats fine all I ask of them is that they THINK about what Im going to say before they lamblast it to hell and gone or toss it out as some nonsence by me...

WE our generation has created by our PERCIEVED need to have more and more violence graphical representation of violence death destruction murder and mayhem... WE HAVE created it... if not directly then indirectly by our saying nothing doing nothing and actually watching and allowing our children to play the movies and games that come out of hollywood and silicone valley.

YES I SAID THAT... Friggin think about it!!... movies wherein there is ever increasing levels of death destruction murder rape sex and all done in brilliant tecnicolor... thats just the movies we allow our kids to watch... then theres the computer games that they play games with ever increasing levels of sophistication graphicals representation of murder of all sorts and discriptions of rape of pilliage of shooting blowing people up knife fights suicide bombing.. wherein the SOLE PURPOSE of the game is to KILL MAIM MURDER as many "people" as they can to achieve their goals... WE TEACH THEM by allowing the games to exist!... even so called kids games have these included nowadays for gods sake!... watch a 12 year old playing computer games watch the focus the excitement the laughter as they succeed in getting through the levels... then watch the bloody game theyre playing! They are "killing" people one by one... there is NO pain associated with their killing them just bam splat and that ones down... one starts to get away or starts killing them the excitement rises then bam laughter "YA!!! GOTCHA!! shoulda seen that coming" and so on

NOT ONCE do they feel remorse feel that the other "person" is dead not once is there a feeling of pain suffering or any other emotion associated with harming hurting maiming or KILLING someone... these kids are growing up in these games... and so is it really such a large step to take that child playing those types of games through a few years of endlessly playing these games these fantasies and as they evolve they associate in their minds that the ones in their way must die (just like in the games) and so a gun and a mind that dissassoicates from the firing a bullet or many into one or many people with the same screams and actions as the games have and they are in life playing out the fantasies of their game... and people die... but to them thats not pain theres no pain no suffering just dead.. next

Then add to the mix the death music the gloom the dark the negative music that is prevelent in the music industry and its not a hard leap to see how these things over a period of time could lead to such as these murders and the collumbine ones and any other

WE our generation have created this in our continued spiralling need for better technology more graphics more realism in our movies computer game scenarios and music

We have ourselves created this situation... mix in keychain kids ever increasing demands on parents to work 2 jobs to make ends meet kids looking out for themselves as best they can without parential or mature responsible guidance... mix in the societies that demand more lenient legal punitive results mix in the conglomeration of do gooders that would have no child disciplined in any way mix in societies who have taken away discipline in the schools power for police and you can see its not a hard or difficult leap to find more and more young people becoming less and less humanized and more and more unemotional and desensitized to death to murder to rape... ITS NOT HARD!!! its real its happening all over the world every day

And as long as we do nothing as long as we allow this rampant desensitizing of our children as long as we continue to allow our children to have no direction discipline or boundaries in all walks of their lives so it will continue

Im done :(

JimD
04-17-2007, 04:51 AM
Shane, cnn had as an expert commentator a retired FBI forensic profiler who said about the same. You have said it better, though.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-17-2007, 05:23 AM
Shane is right.

mmd
04-17-2007, 05:45 AM
I agree. It seems as if Hollywood and the small-screen media have collaborated to perpetrate a noational - if not international - violence desensitization program on its populace.

JimD
04-17-2007, 06:02 AM
Violence encouragement.

S.V. Airlie
04-17-2007, 06:08 AM
You are forgetting the video games...

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 06:11 AM
We played "cowboys and Indians" and shot one another before going in to supper. I grabbed my chest and sad Ahhhh and fell down dead. I drew a bead with my plastic pistol and "shot" my foes and yet have arrived at this advanced age (now armed with real "guns") and have not shot anyone. I've had the opportunity a number of times but still I have failed to shoot my real foes.

A non sequitur is being passed off here.

huisjen
04-17-2007, 06:11 AM
Meanwhile, I wonder how many people died in car crashes over the weekend.
And does anyone have the weekend statistics from Iraq?
How many under-50 heart attacks were there?
How many children died of leukemia?
How many accidental swimming pool deaths were there?

Sensationalism sells media, but, as awful as the VA Tech situation is, I try to keep a sense of perspective.

Dan

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 06:12 AM
Thank you Dan

JimD
04-17-2007, 06:24 AM
Having a hard time seeing the relationship between unbridled violence, child leukemia, and accidental drownings.

huisjen
04-17-2007, 06:41 AM
There are many kinds of violence, Jim. All the things I listed were violence. Some were more preventable than others, but all are death. All are violence.

I know virtually nothing about the mental state and motivation of the VA Tech killer. But I'd dare guess he didn't come by that decision to go on a rampage with guns through what would be considered a normal course of events. He became one of his own victims, just as the child with leukemia is the victim of his own immune system.

Now some are going to blame guns. Some are going to blame movies. Some, video games. Perhaps the abundance of those things played a part. Or perhaps crazy people have been occasionally running amok now and again for all of human history.

What I'm saying is that this is only one kind of deadly violence, and I question whether wringing our hands over it now will do any more good than it did after Columbine or the tower in Texas. Or could we do more good by stopping teenage drinking and driving, or getting office workers to exercise more, or putting fences around swimming pools? Per occurance, swimming pools kill 100x the number of children that firearms do.

Dan

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 06:48 AM
Dan, I knew that vastly more children are killed with swimming pools than guns...but people won't listen to that...it's too scary for them to think that there's not a goat to take the fall for their personal helplessness...

elf
04-17-2007, 06:55 AM
I think I remember seeing on Talking Points Memo last night that 4 times as many people were killed in Iraq yesterday as at Va. Tech.

That was only yesterday.

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 07:07 AM
I've noticed that David Gregory (newsman) has said this is likely to bring up the topic of gun control...10 times in the last hour...it looks like Mr. Gregory is bringing up the topic to me...over and over. "People insist on this discussion" ... he says ... over and over ...amazing. Of course he is not appealing to you or me but, rather to the sheeple...(which we are not...are we?)

huisjen
04-17-2007, 07:07 AM
Phillip, FYI, my statistics on swimming pools and firearms comes from the book Freakonomics. One of the authors of the book lost a child to meningitis, and joined a support group for grieving parents. That's where he realized how many die from drowning in swimming pools. From there he went and researced the statistics. If you have two houses, one with a gun in it and one with a pool in the back yard, the pool is 100 times more likely to cause a child's death.

Dan

JimD
04-17-2007, 07:08 AM
There are many kinds of violence, Jim. All the things I listed were violence. Some were more preventable than others, but all are death. All are violence...

Dan

And spring, summer, winter, and fall are all seasons but that doesn't prevent me from differentiating one from the other. Please don't lump me in with the hand wringers. I am not one of them. Emotionally I felt nothing extraordinary at this event.

Popeye
04-17-2007, 07:17 AM
i am still in shock and numb

i guess placing ones self in the situation makes the difference , i tried placing myself in the situation and from any perspective i can't fathom it , i have always thought that bad things happen when good people do nothing

JimD
04-17-2007, 07:20 AM
i am still in shock and numb...

It may be more a fault of mine but this sort of violence rarely has much impact on me. Especially since I did not know any of the victims personally.

Popeye
04-17-2007, 07:27 AM
when the world trade towers collapsed , i recall someone mentioning to me the death toll from some sort of quasi-statistical , approach , like an actuary .. as in the numbers were relative ...

everybody has their own mechanism to deal with this , it's how we survive

huisjen
04-17-2007, 07:33 AM
I also know a guy who stepped out in front of a bus at First and Market in San Francisco some years ago. He flew 100', landed on his face, and made an almost complete recovery. He lost his laptop (with his business plan) and memory for the three days leading to the event. And he got speech therapy, which is good, 'cause he'd always been a mumbler.

I knew a woman who hit a patch of ice while driving with her boyfriend. She didn't make it.

I had a near miss once on an icy road myself.

I had a step brother who died in what was believed to be a robbery gone wrong.

I had an aunt who died of breast cancer at 54.

I have a niece who nearly drowned in a swimming pool when she was little.

Last summer, a guy here in town crashed his car while drunk and going about 80 miles an hour. He died.

When I was a Midshipman, another Mid got drunk at a frat pary and fell into one of the gorges, breaking most of the bones in his body. He lay there on the cold rocks next to Fall Creek until dawn, when someone spotted him from the bridge above. He lived.

Dan

Popeye
04-17-2007, 07:45 AM
i got off a plane in halifax one morning and on the drive into the city i started chatting with the cabby , an east indian

he asked me about the flight etc , making small talk , i told him flying made me nervous

he said , (in the context of a news story on the radio about a busload of people going over a cliff and plunging to their certain death) , in his view , it was all meant to happen and not to worry , destiny as it where

we shouldn't linger too much at the accident scene , moving on is important

ishmael
04-17-2007, 07:59 AM
A decade ago when my mother was dying I took a stroll through my old neighborhood in a town just outside of Cleveland. I hadn't been there in years. The shift in feeling was striking. When a child the place was busy, vibrant with kids and neighbors chatting. The garage doors open, bicycles scattering the drives and walks. When I went back I didn't see a soul, the houses shut tight, no tricycles on the walks. It had a dark aspect, the people seeming very afraid.

When I got back in my rental for the trip to my motel an unmarked police car followed me almost the entire way. Someone peering from behind their curtains had reported a stranger in the neighborhood.

As to why the change? I think it's complex, but if I had to point a finger at a single cause it'd be, as other's have said, the acceptance of casual violence and fear on the toob. We've been pumping it, non stop, with increasing volume, since just about the time I first left my dear old neighborhood.

Rick Starr
04-17-2007, 08:13 AM
Shane and others, for a very important read, albeit somewhat uncomfortable, get this book:

Stop Teaching Our Kids To Kill (http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Teaching-Our-Kids-Kill/dp/0609606131)

David Grossman's work on the psychology of violence is compelling.

His Killology Website (http://www.killology.com/) is worth a look if you wish to begin to understand the factors that contribute to events like the VPI incident and others. He's become quite the speaker/author/figure, but brush aside the salesmanship and you'll get some great insights.

Mrleft8
04-17-2007, 08:27 AM
On one level the outside world is a safer place than it was when I was a kid. When I was a kid, we played outside after school. I'd walk a half mile to some place where a bunch of the guys were playing football, or basketball, or just hanging out. That half mile usually meant crossing enemy territory. The chances of getting caught by a bully were about 50/50. If I had a good head start, I'd be OK....But if I got ambushed, I was a goner. I could run....Sorta.....Like Forest Gump... My friends would shout encouragement to me...But I don't recall them ever coming to my rescue.
There were kids everywhere. Most of them I knew, if not well, and personally, then at least by reputation. A stop at the sandwich shop for a ham grinder, and a chocolate soda (To look at the pretty girl who worked there, and was the big sister of the cutest girl in my class) almost always netted an invitation to go get into some kind of mischeif, or innocent trouble. Returning home not covered in mud, blood, or grease, meant that I must have either had a dentist appointment, or detention. Bicycles littered the sidewalks, driveways, and parkinglots all over town. There'd be a PILE of them, and not a kid in sight, until a few minutes later a throbbing herd of them would come screaming around some corner, untangle the tube steel spaghetti, and peel off down the road squealing and red faced gonna kill that kid if I ever catch up with him!!....
Now you occasionally see some bored kid shuffling down the street, looking like he's being punished for something.....No Ipod, no cell phone, no game boy in hand... Bicycle? That sounds like work. I'll call Mom, she'll give us a ride in the Escalade....

John Gearing
04-17-2007, 08:32 AM
We recognize the difference between those who die in accidents or from disease and murdered innocents, as at VaTech. It is the contrast that makes the horror: one minute a kid is sitting in class taking notes, on a quiet campus, in a small town in Western Virginia, seemingly as far away from murderous death as one can be, and in a matter of seconds he's shot and lies dying beside his desk.

Iraq is a war zone. Bad things happen in such places, to the innocent as well as to the combatants. Blacksburg, VA is not Iraq.

Popeye
04-17-2007, 08:34 AM
we would play ball hockey in the street , had enough guys for two teams of 4 or 5 and maybe even a change up.. , then get called to supper about twenty million times

theses days the streets are left empty except for mom and dad cars on the way to work , it isn't too hard to imagine where we left off

LeeG
04-17-2007, 08:37 AM
It isn't, but the random walk and horror is disturbing just the same.
In Iraq the former Sec Def called it stuff and liberation. Rice called it creative chaos. GW said it's working.

So no it's not the same. It's over there.

geeman
04-17-2007, 08:41 AM
Rode a bike every where I went.My pals and I would ride to the next town if we wanted to,wasnt a problem.I had complete freedom to go as far as I wanted too. BUT the firm rule was that I couldnt go further then I could ride back by dark.That was the firm rule, no exceptions.When the sun went down, I better be sitting in the living room, or at least on the porch.
My pals and I went fishing at the marinas, played on other peoples old wood boats tied up there.No body ever bothered us because we were careful to NEVER damage or do anything to hurt their property.Fished off the boat docks.People coming or going and not a one ever said a word to us about our hanging around.We were respectful,was aware of the privilage they were allowing us by letting us play there.I'll always remember how kind those ole farts were allowing us to play on their boats.Can you imagine that now?If I caught a kid on my boat there'd be hell to pay! LOL

willmarsh3
04-17-2007, 08:58 AM
Several years ago a Chinese lady was comparing American and Chinese culture. She said her culture was like people working in a field to collect the harvest. But American culture was like people each in their own box. I think the walls of the boxes have only gotten thicker.

Also, one thing I've learned is that if you are afraid, you usually end up missing out on something neat. And you regret it. For example, I had the opportunity to sail on a 3 day cruise on the Chesapeake when I was 11. I turned it down because I was afraid the boat would capsize. I later regretted my decision. There's always the chance of something bad happening. But the only way to go is to try to cover for the risks and do it.

Another One
04-17-2007, 09:07 AM
I have this wonderful song on a "World Cafe" CD, compliments of NPR. The introduction to the live recording says she wrote the song almost accidentally, shortly after the Jonesboro, AR shooting, when everyone was trying to figure out where "we" went wrong.

If It Were Up to Me
Words and Lyrics by:
Cheryl Wheeler

Maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the books
Maybe it's the bullets, maybe it's the real crooks
Maybe it's the drugs, maybe it's the parents
Maybe it's the colors everybody's wearin
Maybe it's the President, maybe it's the last one
Maybe it's the one before that, what he done
Maybe it's the high schools, maybe it's the teachers
Maybe it's the tattooed children in the bleachers
Maybe it's the Bible, maybe it's the lack
Maybe it's the music, maybe it's the crack
Maybe it's the hairdos, maybe it's the TV
Maybe it's the cigarettes, maybe it's the family
Maybe it's the fast food, maybe it's the news
Maybe it's divorce, maybe it's abuse
Maybe it's the lawyers, maybe it's the prisons
Maybe it's the Senators, maybe it's the system
Maybe it's the fathers, maybe it's the sons
Maybe it's the sisters, maybe it's the moms
Maybe it's the radio, maybe it's road rage
Maybe El Nino, or UV rays
Maybe it's the army, maybe it's the liquor
Maybe it's the papers, maybe the militia
Maybe it's the athletes, maybe it's the ads
Maybe it's the sports fans, maybe it's a fad
Maybe it's the magazines, maybe it's the internet
Maybe it's the lottery, maybe it's the immigrants
Maybe it's taxes, big business
Maybe it's the KKK and the skinheads
Maybe it's the communists, maybe it's the Catholics
Maybe it's the hippies, maybe it's the addicts
Maybe it's the art, maybe it's the sex
Maybe it's the homeless, maybe it's the banks
Maybe it's the clearcut, maybe it's the ozone
Maybe it's the chemicals, maybe it's the car phones
Maybe it's the fertilizer, maybe it's the nose rings
Maybe it's the end, but I know one thing.
If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns.

(P) October 1, 1997

Gary E
04-17-2007, 09:16 AM
If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns.


Ohh right... as if that would do anything other that make SURE that only the CRIMs will have them

Gary E
04-17-2007, 09:34 AM
The shooter that did this at VT was a LEGAL US resident...
He bought the gun with all the LEGAL regs and regulations of the State and the Feds

You wnat only the crims to have guns?
You want to make ME a crim? cuz Mine aint regestered, and NEVER WILL BE !!!

Maybe I'll go get that permit to carry and be able to save someones life someday..

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-17-2007, 09:39 AM
The British citizen who murdered children at an elementary school in a Scots village was a registered, legal, owner of the guns that he used.

So we banned handguns. I had been a handgun enthusiast and a member of a gun club, until then. I was so disgusted by what had happened that I supported the change, and I still do.

Now, anyone who has a handgun in Britain is a criminal.

This makes it easy for the police, who are normally unarmed, so they don't shoot people by mistake, to use their armed units, who have far better equipment and are much, much, better shots, to deal with criminals who have handguns.

This seems to work quite well.

Kim Whitmyre
04-17-2007, 09:41 AM
A tragedy for those who lost their lives, and those left behind. But I must say that it was only easy for the shooter to kill that many people because of a lack of resistance. A group of people rushing him would have ended it with much less loss of life. A crowd does not have to be expert in the martial arts.

Gary E
04-17-2007, 09:47 AM
This seems to work quite well

Depends on your idea of "well"

The 2006 Ipswich murder investigation began during December 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2006) when the bodies of five murdered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder) women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman) were discovered at different locations near Ipswich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich) in Suffolk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffolk), England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England).

Popeye
04-17-2007, 09:47 AM
why didnt the security staff close the campus ?

LeeG
04-17-2007, 09:48 AM
oh Jesus,,down the rabbit hole we go

Gary E
04-17-2007, 09:55 AM
Just ONE student or teacher with a LEGAL PERMIT to carry could have stopped this ...
but noooo the do gooders in the world dont want that ...

THATs' where we have gone wrong... PERMIT HONEST PEOPLE TO CARRY and STOP idiots like this guy

Popeye
04-17-2007, 09:58 AM
they could have mandatory karate classes for all freshmen

ishmael
04-17-2007, 10:07 AM
I've never been confronted by someone armed and intent on shooting people, so I don't know how I'd react. I'd like to think that once it became apparent(as seemingly in this case) that the shooter had no rhyme or reason I'd do my best to go down swinging.

The gun control debate has raged here ad nauseum so I ain't going there. LOL. I'll just say that there are symptoms and there are causes, and we should be going after the latter.

BrianW
04-17-2007, 10:09 AM
I have this wonderful song on a "World Cafe" CD, compliments of NPR. The introduction to the live recording says she wrote the song almost accidentally, shortly after the Jonesboro, AR shooting, when everyone was trying to figure out where "we" went wrong.

If It Were Up to Me
Words and Lyrics by:
Cheryl Wheeler

Maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the books
Maybe it's the bullets, maybe it's the real crooks
Maybe it's the drugs, maybe it's the parents
Maybe it's the colors everybody's wearin
Maybe it's the President, maybe it's the last one
Maybe it's the one before that, what he done
Maybe it's the high schools, maybe it's the teachers
Maybe it's the tattooed children in the bleachers
Maybe it's the Bible, maybe it's the lack
Maybe it's the music, maybe it's the crack
Maybe it's the hairdos, maybe it's the TV
Maybe it's the cigarettes, maybe it's the family
Maybe it's the fast food, maybe it's the news
Maybe it's divorce, maybe it's abuse
Maybe it's the lawyers, maybe it's the prisons
Maybe it's the Senators, maybe it's the system
Maybe it's the fathers, maybe it's the sons
Maybe it's the sisters, maybe it's the moms
Maybe it's the radio, maybe it's road rage
Maybe El Nino, or UV rays
Maybe it's the army, maybe it's the liquor
Maybe it's the papers, maybe the militia
Maybe it's the athletes, maybe it's the ads
Maybe it's the sports fans, maybe it's a fad
Maybe it's the magazines, maybe it's the internet
Maybe it's the lottery, maybe it's the immigrants
Maybe it's taxes, big business
Maybe it's the KKK and the skinheads
Maybe it's the communists, maybe it's the Catholics
Maybe it's the hippies, maybe it's the addicts
Maybe it's the art, maybe it's the sex
Maybe it's the homeless, maybe it's the banks
Maybe it's the clearcut, maybe it's the ozone
Maybe it's the chemicals, maybe it's the car phones
Maybe it's the fertilizer, maybe it's the nose rings
Maybe it's the end, but I know one thing.
If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns.

(P) October 1, 1997

Actually, the song makes a strong point(s).

There are lots of influences on our society. None of them are 'reasons' to kill, but just a listing of things that can affect people.

However the 'solution' at the end of the song doesn't address a single issue listed, it simply reacts to the tool used, not the person wielding the tool.

I prefer a solution that addresses the problem, not the tool.

Another One
04-17-2007, 10:15 AM
Sorry, guys - I didn't mean to start a troll on gun control. I just thought it interesting how people would blame anything and everything when an event like this happens. We seem to have this intense drive to try to understand the incomprehensible.

Jami

hokiefan
04-17-2007, 10:16 AM
This tragedy hits very close to home for me. I graduated from Virginia Tech in 1983 after five wonderful years. Being an Engineering student I spent many hours in Norris Hall, not my primary home but a regular one. I also had some good times in Ambler Johnson Hall, which was a girls dorm at the time. I can't understand the things that could drive a person to do something like this, but I can understand the pain and suffering that he has inflicted on family, friends, classmates, and colleagues. To my knowledge I don't directly know anyone at Virginia Tech anymore, but all Hokies are my family.

It has been touching to see the response of the world and particularly other university communities on the various message boards. Even the hated Hoos (rival Wahoos from the University of Virginia) have been kind and poured out their support. Someone painted a bridge in Charlottesville with a big Orange and Maroon "Hoos for Hokies" and posted a picture on their message board.

The tribute that brought tears to my eyes was on the Texas A&M football board. They have been recent opponents in football, have some similarities in the schools and a tremendous mutual respect in the football fanbases. They annually have a roll call where they gather on campus and call roll of the last years fallen students, alumni, faculty, etc. Everyone answers "Here" as the names are called. So their message board was a string of messages that said, "HERE." I can't explain it, but it made the tears stream down my cheeks.

My prayers go out to the families and friends of the people hurt and killed yesterday. No words can express the sadness.

Bobby

geeman
04-17-2007, 10:19 AM
If it hadnt been guns ,a nut job like that would have switched to something else.Now days you can built a respectable bomb with info off the internet with easily available parts and pieces.A nut job like this guy wont be stopped because he couldnt get a gun.

Popeye
04-17-2007, 10:27 AM
As I said before, it's a sad fact of life that some tiny, tiny percentage of us folks walking around are sociopaths... not so tiny , i believe the number is on the order every 1 in 200 or so are sociopath ~ psycopath to various degrees

and in that group , the worst ones generally do very well in social rank .. becoming top execs , ceo's , top military brass etc..

Leon m
04-17-2007, 10:28 AM
SHANE IS RIGHT ! And in my opinion Dan is just trivialising the REAL issue (sorry Dan)...The culture of violence we have created (or at least, let grow). Not only do I agree with everything Shane said, I would also like to add that WE also confirm violence as a solution to our problems when we sit back and LET our government start and continue an agressive war. How can we tell our children that you can not solve your problems with a gun, when that is all they see. It's the same thing as telling your children not to smoke with a cigarette hanging out of your mouth.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-17-2007, 10:29 AM
Depends on your idea of "well"

The 2006 Ipswich murder investigation began during December 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2006) when the bodies of five murdered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder) women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman) were discovered at different locations near Ipswich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich) in Suffolk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffolk), England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England).


Gary, as you may know, I live nearby.

The women, who all had drug issues and were prostituting themselves to support their addictions, were all strangled, over a very short period of time, and our little local police force, pestered by a media circus, managed, within a few days, to arrest a suspect, who is going to be tried shortly, and who as it happens is a member of a local golf club. The killing stopped with his arrest.

No guns were involved, and yes, I think I can say that our police force works quite well.

LeeG
04-17-2007, 10:32 AM
I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head, Jami.

As you said, we all try to understand the incomprehensible.... well, SOME of us do, at least.

.



and if it's not comprehensible,,have a place for that and not make stuff up to fill the unknown.

Gary E
04-17-2007, 10:40 AM
Gary, as you may know, I live nearby.

The women, who all had drug issues and were prostituting themselves to support their addictions, were all strangled, over a very short period of time, and our little local police force, pestered by a media circus, managed, within a few days, to arrest a suspect, who is going to be tried shortly, and who as it happens is a member of a local golf club. The killing stopped with his arrest.

No guns were involved, and yes, I think I can say that our police force works quite well.


No I dont know where you live nor does it matter one hoot...
Point is that guns or no guns dont mean squat...IF SOMEBODY wants you DEAD... YOUR GONA DIE...

ishmael
04-17-2007, 10:41 AM
It would be good to hear more about this ill fellow. The fact is, as pointed at on another thread, psychotropic drugs have been in the background of almost all the mass murders at schools over the last decade. We don't hear about it. Part of that stems from privacy concerns, but I have to think a lot of the deafening silence is tied to the pharmaceutical lobby.

It doesn't have to be sociopaths. In most cases, from what I've read, it has been fairly normal folks who went off their nuts because of the screwing with their brain chemistry. Along with the culture of violence pointed at, that is a change.

Popeye
04-17-2007, 10:48 AM
or it could all be perfectly normal , first we check the ice core samples for the last millenia

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-17-2007, 10:49 AM
No I dont know where you live nor does it matter one hoot...
Point is that guns or no guns dont mean squat...IF SOMEBODY wants you DEAD... YOUR GONA DIE...

Well, in that case, I'll stick with "no guns" and make life that little bit harder for anyone who wants me dead.

As I said, I used to be in your camp, on this issue, but I changed my mind after a massacre of schoolchildren by a licensed gun owner.

ahp
04-17-2007, 10:58 AM
Too many of our kids have learned by example that guns solve problems. We think nothing of our kids watching killing as entertainment. You know what the public response would be if they saw as many sex acts on TV as homocides.

David Tabor (sailordave)
04-17-2007, 11:03 AM
Timothy Mcveigh killed 168 people and didn't use a gun.

9/11 didn't involve guns...

I'll not get involved in the debate, but people who want to do great harm WILL find a way. They are just too angry.:mad:

I could ALMOST understand if this guy had been failed by the prof., dumped by some girl or whatever and killed 4 or 5 people, but to murder 32 other people, some of whom I'm sure he didn't even know.... :confused:

Bruce Hooke
04-17-2007, 11:03 AM
No I dont know where you live nor does it matter one hoot...
Point is that guns or no guns dont mean squat...IF SOMEBODY wants you DEAD... YOUR GONA DIE...

Balderdash. If that guy yesterday at Virginia Tech had had to kill all his victims by strangling them, how many people do you think would have died? I suppose it is possible that he still might have managed to kill a few of people, but you can bet the death toll would not be what it was. If he'd been using a knife he probably would have managed to kill more than he would have by strangling, but I'm sure the death toll would still be less than what it was.

Yes, he could have killed as many people as he did using a bomb, but for whatever reason it seems to be quite rare for people like this guy to use a bomb as their tool. Bombs, for the most part, seem to be the tools of people who are trying to make a political statement, in other words terrorists, which is a separate problem.

I suspect that a blasting away at someone with a gun fits the pathology of this type of person much better than planting a bomb.

ishmael
04-17-2007, 11:12 AM
Norm,

I'm not doing your homework for you. Look into the background of almost all these young shooters and you'll find a shrink fiddling with their brain chemistry. Not making it up, I promise.

As I've said many times, in the right hands, with proper supervision, these drugs can be a life saver. Handing them out to everyone and there brother is not a good idea. That's what we have been doing!

Recent FDA warnings. They've finally come out and revealed that indiscriminate use is dangerous, particularly with adolescents and young adults. Suicidal and homicidal ideations are not uncommon side effects.

I've a dear old friend who holds a Phd in psychology. He's told me stories about when Prozac first caught on. Psychiatrists were prescribing it pretty willy nilly. He had friends who were taking it essentially as a recreational drug. A sort of viagra for the mind. In most folks it's not a big deal, but in a few it makes an already unbalanced mind go nuts. They don't have to be native sociopaths.

BrianW
04-17-2007, 11:13 AM
So basically we're just looking to reduce the death tolls, and not the actual number of violent acts committed?

Bruce Hooke
04-17-2007, 11:20 AM
So basically we're just looking to reduce the death tolls, and not the actual number of violent acts committed?

It would be great to do both, but at the least, since we cannot achieve perfection on eliminating violent acts completely, it also makes sense to reduce the harm someone can do when they decide to be violent.

marwesmed
04-17-2007, 11:20 AM
Norm, A 150 years ago someone with their own gun would have shot him.

Bruce Hooke
04-17-2007, 11:23 AM
Timothy Mcveigh killed 168 people and didn't use a gun.

9/11 didn't involve guns...

I'll not get involved in the debate, but people who want to do great harm WILL find a way. They are just too angry.

If we are actually going to get anywhere with addressing the problems, I think it would be a good idea to distinguish between terrorists, who kill for political reasons, and sociopaths who kill for more personal reasons.

BrianW
04-17-2007, 11:27 AM
It would be great to do both, but at the least, since we cannot achieve perfection on eliminating violent acts completely, it also makes sense to reduce the harm someone can do when they decide to be violent.

But what if the facts indicated guns prevented a larger number of murders than they caused?

TimH
04-17-2007, 11:27 AM
You can kill a whole lot more people with a bomb. Take away the guns and I am sure the bomb will be next of choice.

Bruce Hooke
04-17-2007, 11:29 AM
I'm not doing your homework for you. Look into the background of almost all these young shooters and you'll find a shrink fiddling with their brain chemistry. Not making it up, I promise.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume the above statement is correct. It seems to me that there are at least two possible conclusions:

1. The meds caused the person to go off their rocker and act out violently.

2. The person was deeply troubled and attempts were made to help them using medications, but the attempts failed and the person acted out violently, but not as a result of the medications.

It seems to me that conclusion 2 is at least as likely as conclusion 1, and that, at the least, some evidence of causation needs to be provided before we conclude that it was the medications that caused the problem.

Bruce Hooke
04-17-2007, 11:31 AM
But what if the facts indicated guns prevented a larger number of murders than they caused?

This is a very long debate that I do not have time to get into. I'll just say that I find the evidence of the low rates of gun violence in many countries in which guns are relatively rare more compelling evidence than anything I've seen that tries to show that more guns are the way to reduce gun violence.

Popeye
04-17-2007, 11:33 AM
proving prevented murders..

hang on a smidge while i fresh up

huisjen
04-17-2007, 11:35 AM
Everybody is trying to deny that we live in a real world where real stuff happens. Everybody is trying to say VA Tech isn't like Iraq. Some are even trying to say that there's a culture of violence that never existed before.



Ecclesiasties 1:9

What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done;
and there is nothing new under the sun.

Anybody read much Stephen King? I just (finally) saw Stand By Me. According to On Writing, King gets a lot of his ideas from putting unrelated but real thoughts and experiences together. So when Wil Wheaton pulls the gun on Kiefer Sutherland, I have to assume that this a part of King's original story, based on his personal knowledge of late '50's kids with access to guns and a culture that included violence. Maybe I'm taking fiction a bit far, but I doubt it.

How about this one? It's hardly new anymore:


The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload
And nobody’s gonna go to school today
She’s gonna make them stay at home
And daddy doesn’t understand it
He always said she was good as gold
And he can see no reasons
'Cos there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be show-ow-ow-ow-own?

Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oot the whole day down

The Telex machine is kept so clean
And it types to a waiting world
And mother feels so shocked
Father’s world is rocked
And their thoughts turn to their own little girl
Sweet 16 ain’t that peachy keen
Now that ain’t so neat to admit defeat
They can see no reasons
'Cos there are no reasons
What reasons do you need?
Oh Oh Oh Oh

Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oot
The whole day down, down, down, shoot it all down

And all the playing's stopped in the playground now
She wants to play with her toys a while
And school's out early and soon we'll be learning
And the lesson today is how to die
And then the bullhorn crackles
And the captain tackles
With the problems and the hows and whys
And he can see no reasons
'Cos there are no reasons
What reason do you need to die, die?
Oh Oh Oh

Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like
I don’t like (Tell me why)
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like
I don’t like (Tell me why)
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don't like Mondays
I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oot the whole day down

Yes, I agree that there seems to be a lot of crap out there. There's a handful of Saw movies and lots of first person shooter games, but as Phillip said, kids used to play outside with toy guns, shooting each other and pretending to die.

I mentioned the book Freakonomics which I read (well, actually I listened to it on CD) recently. One item in it is that reducing the number of guns in circulation does virtually nothing to reduce gun violence. On the other hand, a greater number of people carrying concealed weapons does (surprise...) virtually nothing to reduce criminal behavior generally.

So no Leon, I'm not trivializing the issue. I'm saying it's an issue that's always been with us. The people who trivialize it are the ones who say that it's something new, that we can eventually do away with again. I'm saying we need to acknowledge it. Acknowledge that it's always been with us and always will be. Acknowledge that There are times of war and times of peace, and that it's unrealistic to say "Oh, but that couldn't happen here!" Never tell yourself that a storm won't get you and take everything you have because you have insurance. Never say we live in a new economic paradigm and the Dot-Com bubble will never burst. Never say that because our tractors and combines and fertilizer factories are so big, we could never have a drought and a famine. And never say that because we haven't been invaded since 1815, foreign troops will never come knocking, ready to avenge the current administration's wrongs, or simply take us on because they can, and we no longer have the economic strength to defend ourselves.

Lightning still strikes. Let's be careful out there.

Dan

Bob Cleek
04-17-2007, 11:44 AM
When you consider how many people there are, it is an inevitable fact of life that a certain number of them are going to be dangerously crazy. All things considered, it is an extremely small percentage of the population. Terrible as an isolated incident may be, things aren't so bad, really. No amount of legislation or control is ever going to protect us from every evil that exists. S**t happens.

George Roberts
04-17-2007, 11:44 AM
I agree with huisjen ---

Lots of people die everyday. Lots of hazards in life. It is unlikely that we can improve life much.

BrianW
04-17-2007, 11:45 AM
Norman,

I'm actually surprised, and somewhat happy (in this circumstance, it's hard to be really happy) at your stance.

I will point out though, that one of the 'reasonable restrictions' is being used over and over again by the psychopaths against normal society.

Popeye
04-17-2007, 11:55 AM
guns is what made america what it is today

BrianW
04-17-2007, 12:02 PM
These sorts of events are extraordinarily rare, and they're NOT a good basis on which to legislate.

Yet strangely enough, "gun free zones" were the result of legislation based on such events. :(

BrianW
04-17-2007, 12:11 PM
Then again, I find it hard to believe that having hundreds of thousands of people walking around packing concealed heat, pumping up their 'John Wayne' self image, waiting and hoping for some event to occur where they could blow away the bad guy with impunity, is a very good idea, either.

That 'wild west' image never materialized in any state where concealed carry laws were implemented.

You know that's true. To make such remarks is to engage in mere sound bite politics and demeans the whole debate. :(

Memphis Mike
04-17-2007, 12:13 PM
Bruce Hooke is right. Countries that have stricter gun laws have lower gun deaths. You can't argue with the facts.

I didn't really mean for this to turn into a discussion on gun control but maybe stricter laws are part of the solution.

This ain't 1848, it's 2007.

huisjen
04-17-2007, 12:15 PM
This ain't 1848, it's 2007.

Now explain why that really really maters.

Dan

George Roberts
04-17-2007, 12:24 PM
Some have remarked that they don't understand why ...

When I was in college, I was smart. 3 year BS, MS, Ph.d. program. 35 class hours/week. 10 library hours/day. My mid 90%s turned the 50-60% As and Bs into failing grades for the grad students.

A few calls from the employers - big donors, of the grad students turned my mid 90%s into failing grades and the 50-60%s into As and Bs.

Last term in school. Kicked out with not ever a BS. Fired from my job.

Dean, facility, students, employer, co-workers - not one spoke out for me. I guess a person without a wife could have killed them all - with no remorse.

But I had a wife.

Beach Party
04-17-2007, 12:40 PM
I hope this isnt turning into an anti gun harange. I carry. I go to college and regularly carry my weapon into the class room. Though this is a breach of probably every institution of higher learning rules, I know what has and can happen when a nut case has a captive audience to shoot up. Schools of all kinds and post offices seem to draw maniacal nut jobs like flies to a pile of guts. I will protect my self. If that requires breaking some ridiculous rules, so be it. When the **** hits the fan, there is no time to call authorities to come and rescue you. You either put up your best defense and win, you die like a man, or you die like a hog in a pen waiting to be butchered. If this creep had walked into a class, that I had been attending yesterday morning, he might have gotten a couple of shots off, then I would have drawn my weapon and fired it until it was empty. I am a fair shot, trained with the Marines, and I doubt the casualty list would be what it is today.

Osborne Russell
04-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Schools of all kinds and post offices seem to draw maniacal nut jobs like flies to a pile of guts.

Man, what is up with that? I can see the schools, but I would think the Post Office would be mellow.

Leon m
04-17-2007, 12:45 PM
So no Leon, I'm not trivializing the issue. I'm saying it's an issue that's always been with us.

Lightning still strikes. Let's be careful out there.

Dan

So why give our children lightning rods. I understand and agree with a lot of what you are saying Dan...But I think it falls short of responsible...It's that same attitude that is so pervasive in the world TODAY." Yes school shootings have been happening since at least 1966 , but in 1966 we didn't have school shootings every other month, but we are now. So just because it's been happening for some time is no excuse to sherk our responsibilities as a culture NOW.


Shane was right.

geeman
04-17-2007, 12:48 PM
How often do you hear of a gun store being robbed?Could it be because they know most gun shop countermen are armed?
Now how often do you hear of a small market or some such store being robbed?
Could it be that they know the odds are in their favor?
Our problem isnt with the "messenger" = gun, our problem is the message itself. Our society has a problem. Guns are a symptom, their not the problem
You can rationalize all you want,the problem is society.
If by chance the govt came and took my weapons (which is the only way they'd get them) I would not feel any safer in my home,just the opposite.

Leon m
04-17-2007, 12:53 PM
Our problem isnt with the "messenger" = gun, our problem is the message itself. Our society has a problem.

I agree . It's our marketing of violence as enertainmant, and our government telling our youth if you have a problem ...shoot it.

geeman
04-17-2007, 01:02 PM
Taking the guns is like giving aspirin to cure a cancer.

George.
04-17-2007, 01:35 PM
It seems as if Hollywood and the small-screen media have collaborated to perpetrate a noational - if not international - violence desensitization program on its populace.

Two points jump out of this post - not often noticed by the Americans as they contemplate themselves:

1) Hollywood and video game makers have perpetrated a program to indoctrinate American young men in a mindset of kill-kill-kill blow-em-all-up, as a prelude to recruting them into the military, where they get to satisfy their manufactured craving legally and in the real world. It's no secret. The Pentagon actually provides financial and other support for shoot-em-up video games and movies.

2) Nevertheless, American violent video games and movies are available in every country, and very popular around the world. And yet this sort of mass shooting of innocents for no reason is a predominantly American phenomenon. Why?

geeman
04-17-2007, 01:37 PM
I'm getting too upset to comment more here,and I swore I wouldnt.
But I will say, that when they come in my house and take my guns,I will resort to building my own.I will NEVER agree to live without a method of protecting myself.Never.

Leon m
04-17-2007, 01:43 PM
.I will NEVER agree to live without a method of protecting myself.Never.

Ther is always Archery . ;)

George.
04-17-2007, 01:52 PM
Or peaceful fellow citizens. Check out the crime rate in unarmed countries. ;)

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-17-2007, 01:54 PM
An even more common thread with these kinds of violence, more than guns, is that the perpetrators are all GUYS. Men. I'm a guy, and I understand that there are a lot of issues with guys and violence, stemming from all manners of self-esteem and power issues. I think if you lay out on a table, a powersaw, a typwriter, a drill, and a pistol, in a woman's mind, all four things say "tool", but in (some) guys minds, the pistol says "power". I AM a gun owner. But if I had a child, especially a son, I'd be very careful about what they watched growing up. Yeah, I grew up watching Magnum and Simon & Simon shoot it out with the bad guys and grew up ok, but I still would want to make sure that he doesn't identify a firearm with making him more powerful. It's a tough sell given all the media images. I am also an NRA member but have to disagree with them on a couple of issues. They have this program called Eddie Eagle where they go into schools to tell kids that if they see a gun laying around, to not touch it and tell an adult. So a few years back, one of the news programs followed one of these programs with teens, then a few weeks later, placed a pistol (firing pin disabled but dummy rounds in it) where the kids could find it. The girls never touched it. The guys were all over it, picking it up, pointing it and pulling the trigger, never checking to see it was loaded. I am a strong advocate of firearm freedoms, but teenage guys are testosterone-driven stupid in this regard and the mental issues need to be dealt with early, and frequently, in life. I am also an advocate of parents keeping all the guns locked in a safe. Others views?

All the best to everyone.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-17-2007, 02:00 PM
I'm getting too upset to comment more here,and I swore I wouldnt.
But I will say, that when they come in my house and take my guns,I will resort to building my own.I will NEVER agree to live without a method of protecting myself.Never.

Damn right. As my toolmaker instructor (I took machine trades before college) told me, "This country is put together with 1/4"-20 socket head cap screws." He was talking about job prospects. But there are more guys with lathes and mills in their basement in this country than probably all other countries combined.

peb
04-17-2007, 02:08 PM
and it's a possible reason why the state of Texas, for example, has extraordinarily lax gun laws, while also leading the nation in violent deaths.

Please provide statistical backup for this fact.

The following link will show that as of 2005 Texas was number 14 in murder rate.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169&scid=12

Which is nothing to write home about. But not as bad as Maryland or California, or new Mexico.

Sam F
04-17-2007, 02:12 PM
... But I will say, that when they come in my house and take my guns,I will resort to building my own.I will NEVER agree to live without a method of protecting myself. Never.

It's the problem of getting the genie back in the bottle.
It seems the only way to get rid of guns is to get rid of them ALL - government included, or no one will feel (or be) safe.
AFAIK only one country has ever tried to do this and had any sort of success and that's Japan.
Ultimately that too was a failure.
Since getting this particular genie back in his bottle is impossible...
that leaves us with the social engineers who trust the government to always do the right thing and the realists who don't.

RodB
04-17-2007, 02:25 PM
Norm,

If you want to spew the anti gun propaganda, try to be at least bit truthful...especially if you want to mention Texas. Your comments are pure BS... Studies have shown states with license to carry laws have a decreased crime rate. Its common knowledge...thats why other states have followed in inplementing such laws. If any part of what you imply were true then all kinds of folks would be shot daily in the many states where licensed to carry folks happened to get into any type of argument.

From your comments its obvious you know nothing about the gun carry laws. FYI, folks who get a license to carry here in Texas pay about $140 every couple of years and complete a fairly decent safety/shooting course and also class hours on the law and their rights. Additionally, folks licensed to carry are totally documented with the FED and STATE government along with a background check. Its all on the up and up and makes for responsible gunowners with a good fix on how and why a gun should be used, if ever....and if they need to they have learned how to use it to a reasonable degree. Isn't if funny you have not heard of a license gun owner shooting a police officer when stopped...how come that hasn't happeded...with all those guns in the hands of law abiding citizens????

The truth be known, the bad guy will get his hands on a gun...one way or another...and everytime something like this happens, folks start yammering about taking the rights away from all the law abiding citizens.

If we put hunting aside for the moment, Gun ownership is kinda like insurance. If you ever need it, nothing, I repeat nothing else will do. I have known literally hundreds of gunowners and hunters and I have not seen the John Wayne fixation you speak of. I cannot imagine not having the ability to protect my family in my own home and now, with the atmosphere like it is about guns, its really a risky proposition if you transport your gun in your car, whether on a trip or not. Its all or nothing...either have a license to carry or leave it at home locked up.

Before the advent of license to carry laws, most law abiding citizens could carry a gun in their car if crossing two county lines or for example taking a trip across a few state lines. Now, with the carry laws, you better have the carry permit to transport your own property or its up to the disgression of the law enforcement officer as to whether you get in a legal mess or the local laws where you get stopped. There have been cases here locally where hunters who happeded to be deer hunting with pistols have been arrested leaving a lease by law enforcement officers and simply because they did not have a license to carry ended up paying a substantial fine.

This is all BS, but thats another subject. If you want to transport your own property without any problems, it makes much more sense to just get a license to carry. Again, the anti-gun influence has a totally irrational effect.

RB

George.
04-17-2007, 02:55 PM
It's not because Americans have easy guns. Not that simple.

Americans are conditioned by their culture to believe in a shoot-them-up solution to issues. For example, in the typical American cop show or movie, the crime is "solved" and the bad guys are punished, not through intelligent investigation and well-done legal prosecution, but by the "good" guys shooting the "bad"guys - no trial, no doubts, no errors, no consequences.

Maniccheism, moral certainty, and guns. In that order.

David Tabor (sailordave)
04-17-2007, 03:09 PM
Man, what is up with that? I can see the schools, but I would think the Post Office would be mellow.


Actually I know a number of people who used to work for the USPS and they tell stories of having to meet quota's in their work, being rushed to get things done, few breaks, etc...
It IS a very stressful place to work. Actually most places of employment where you do ROTE work that can be quantified are stressful as employers try to eek out more and more productivity.


Funny thing is I work in a very stressful occupation and even though we joke about someone being ready to BLOW, we've never had any violent incidents that I'm aware of. And some of the characters I've worked w/ over the years you would NOT believe...:eek:

FWIW, VA is a "shall issue" concealed carry state. IE, in the absence of some legal reason, one must be issued a CCpermit if you apply for one. And some years back when this change came about the horror stories did not materialize; in fact after a few years the police chief's assoc. even admitted they were WRONG and this law didn't turn Virginia into VIRGINIA CITY! (wild west for you non-US types)
Trouble is, like the Luby's massacre,where one woman had to leave her gun in her vehicle and saw her mother killed..., there are so many exceptions to the concealed carry law that prevent you from carrying in many places, it's more of a hassle to carry than not.

I will not enter this debate, thought I would just lay out some FACTS...being a VA resident.

Bruce Hooke
04-17-2007, 03:11 PM
If this creep had walked into a class, that I had been attending yesterday morning, he might have gotten a couple of shots off, then I would have drawn my weapon and fired it until it was empty. I am a fair shot, trained with the Marines, and I doubt the casualty list would be what it is today.

From the reports I've heard, he was using semi-automatic clips. I think it quite likely that by the time you had gotten your gun out of your backpack you'd have been dead...

Bruce Hooke
04-17-2007, 03:13 PM
Actually I know a number of people who used to work for the USPS and they tell stories of having to meet quota's in their work, being rushed to get things done, few breaks, etc...
It IS a very stressful place to work. Actually most places of employment where you do ROTE work that can be quantified are stressful as employers try to eek out more and more productivity.

It is worth remembering that the USPS is a very large employer. If you compared the shooting rate at the post office with other similar size employers I'm not sure you'd find that much difference.

Osborne Russell
04-17-2007, 03:23 PM
Americans are conditioned by their culture to believe in a shoot-them-up solution to issues.

War on poverty
War on drugs
War on terrorism

That's just the gun/war part. Only a facet of faith in technology. Technology can solve moral issues. In turn, only a facet of might makes right.

RodB
04-17-2007, 03:50 PM
Norm,

I may have misinterpreted your comments to some degree, and I too haven't looked up this stuff for a long time. Lets just say that if shootings and crime increased in states where the license to carry laws had been implemented it certainly would have been reported loudly and constantly by the antigun lobby.

The losses at VT were great and I can only offer my prayers and sympathy... I too wish someone in the vicinity had gun...and been able to end the incident with less loss of life.

RB

Rick Starr
04-17-2007, 04:10 PM
Many of you probably recall my RKBA advocacy.

One reason the UK has done well with the ban on handguns is that they have not castrated their police departments. In fact they have separated the politics from governance in a way inconceivable to most Americans. The result is what we hear of as a 'nanny state' with such attrocities as barking surveillance cameras on every street corner, but underlying all that is a trust in their government which Americans find incomprehensible.

Although I am a staunch RKBAer, I would give it up in an instant if America were to develop an empowered and trustworthy law enforcement community and judiciary. But I fear that cannot happen in the US. We are not a team, we are 300 million anarchists who stradle the line between rebellion and despondancy, held in check by litigation or the fear of it, and prozac.

BrianW
04-17-2007, 04:16 PM
From the reports I've heard, he was using semi-automatic clips. I think it quite likely that by the time you had gotten your gun out of your backpack you'd have been dead...

What's a semi-automatic clip?

In any case, defeatist logic certainly will never win the day against the bad guys.

Hell Rod, if it does ever happen in your school, shoot yourself, it would be quicker.

BrianW
04-17-2007, 04:18 PM
BTW,

England's non-murder/rape crime rate has increased since the gun ban, above that of the US.

Hardly the place to use as an example. I suspect Brazil would be a better choice.

Tanbark Spanker
04-17-2007, 04:22 PM
MK Ultra mind control being used to take away the right to bear arms. You can't have the elite's New World Order with all Americans totin' guns.

Read Ted Flynn's Hope For The Wicked or some of David Icke's books. Even the BSE prion seems to fit the globalists' agenda. Heck, cattle mutilation and black helicopters ...like ham and eggs.

Gary E
04-17-2007, 04:34 PM
there is no time to call authorities to come and rescue you. You either put up your best defense and win, you die like a man, or you die like a hog in a pen waiting to be butchered. If this creep had walked into a class, that I had been attending yesterday morning, he might have gotten a couple of shots off, then I would have drawn my weapon and fired it until it was empty. I am a fair shot, trained with the Marines, and I doubt the casualty list would be what it is today.

Finally someone with some common sense and the training to use it.

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 04:41 PM
The British citizen who murdered children at an elementary school in a Scots village was a registered, legal, owner of the guns that he used.

So we banned handguns. I had been a handgun enthusiast and a member of a gun club, until then. I was so disgusted by what had happened that I supported the change, and I still do.

Now, anyone who has a handgun in Britain is a criminal.

This makes it easy for the police, who are normally unarmed, so they don't shoot people by mistake, to use their armed units, who have far better equipment and are much, much, better shots, to deal with criminals who have handguns.

This seems to work quite well.

"everyone with hand guns is a criminal" ...yep, ask the family of the Brazilian who the police murdered...

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 04:52 PM
I had a little conversation with my cousin right after the towers were bombed. Thinking of the plane which plowed into the ground in Penn, I wondered out loud if it would have made any difference if some of those good old boys had had a simple buck folding hunter (knife) with them. My cousin responded violently with a red face saying, "I DON'T WANT THOSE PEOPLE TO BE ARMED!" I was astonished that he would demand that we insure Atta had an unarmed plane load of victims! He still doesn't get it...with his master's degree (making him of a superior intellect I suppose)

There is no answer in his extreme attitude but it seems to illustrate the shallow-think we practice in this country.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-17-2007, 05:54 PM
Well, this thread stacks up pretty much as expected.

Memphis Mike
04-17-2007, 05:56 PM
The answer to the gun problem we have in our country is not more guns.

LeeG
04-17-2007, 06:03 PM
smaller bullets. Nothing over .177.

Anything bigger and you have to wear a period costume.

Rick Starr
04-17-2007, 06:05 PM
oh god.

ishmael
04-17-2007, 06:05 PM
I guess I have to re tell this. When I was twelve my school was having a pioneer day sort of thang. I took a .22 Remington single shot carbine to display in one of the cases. I carried it openly, on the bus. Not a hint of trouble, no one thought twice.

There has been some major shift in culture. I was carrying that rifle on a suburban bus, to a suburban school. It was fully functional.

Getting back to the original question, what has changed?

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 06:06 PM
The answer is more likely to be less people shooting off their mouths. The gun removal attitude is a manifestation of the "what-if" thinking put into practice in a knee-jerk fashion. There would not be people dieing in Somolia if we or someone would simply take the guns away (IT WOULD BE SO SIMPLE!)...bearing in mind that once the call goes out, only the bad guys will promptly go down and turn in their guns (I said that right didn't I?)

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 06:07 PM
maybe we should (knee-jerk-like) require students to wear body armor?

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 06:10 PM
I know! ... the next time someone hears a loud noise in a town of 26,000 or less, we run around locking folks up where ever they happen to be at the moment!

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 06:11 PM
We could call them "illegal combatants" and get around any laws that would keep us from locking them up (for their own safety)

LeeG
04-17-2007, 06:23 PM
oh god.


you could be dressed up like a pirate if you like

Rick Starr
04-17-2007, 06:31 PM
Sorry leeg, I was referring to the thread as a whole.

peb
04-17-2007, 06:33 PM
I guess I have to re tell this. When I was twelve my school was having a pioneer day sort of thang. I took a .22 Remington single shot carbine to display in one of the cases. I carried it openly, on the bus. Not a hint of trouble, no one thought twice.

There has been some major shift in culture. I was carrying that rifle on a suburban bus, to a suburban school. It was fully functional.

Getting back to the original question, what has changed?

Not a suburban school, but throughout high school, more times than not, the farm pickup my brother and I drove to school everyday had a 22 in it.

JimD
04-17-2007, 06:37 PM
We could call them "illegal combatants" and get around any laws that would keep us from locking them up (for their own safety)

I believe its called the Patriot Act.

cjp63
04-17-2007, 06:48 PM
George you said: 1) Hollywood and video game makers have perpetrated a program to indoctrinate American young men in a mindset of kill-kill-kill blow-em-all-up, as a prelude to recruting them into the military, where they get to satisfy their manufactured craving legally and in the real world. It's no secret. The Pentagon actually provides financial and other support for shoot-em-up video games and movies.


What makes you think that is new or exclusive to the US. Recruits are always young men and now women. Older foks would never agree (too smart) to run headlong into a hail of bullets. the young have two things: invincability (perceived) and they are still mouldable. That's the way its been since the first armies were raised and that's the way it will always be.

chris

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-17-2007, 07:02 PM
Some have remarked that they don't understand why ...

When I was in college, I was smart. 3 year BS, MS, Ph.d. program. 35 class hours/week. 10 library hours/day. My mid 90%s turned the 50-60% As and Bs into failing grades for the grad students.

A few calls from the employers - big donors, of the grad students turned my mid 90%s into failing grades and the 50-60%s into As and Bs.

Last term in school. Kicked out with not ever a BS. Fired from my job.

Dean, facility, students, employer, co-workers - not one spoke out for me. I guess a person without a wife could have killed them all - with no remorse.

But I had a wife.

University faculty can wield tremendous, seemingly omnipotent power against students when they are mentally quite vulnerable. I had one class that was so hard it scared me. So I read every text I could find on the subject. On a test, I solved a problem, but unknown to me at the time, I used a technique from one of the texts outside of the official course text. I showed my work, but the professor accused me of cheating and gave me a zero, even after I explained how I arrived at the answer. He didn't say I used the wrong technique, he said I cheated. The professor was foreign born with weak English, but I explained things very slowly and carefully, I don't know if that was a part of it. I was enraged. I made sure I got near perfect scores on every test after that, by any means necessary.

You're right, most of your friends won't stick up for you at school or work, they are too afraid. My best friend at school was ready to help instantly.

I'm not saying the violence at VT was justified, not at all, ESPECIALLY against innocent people who, I am sure, had nothing to do with his anger, if, IF, his anger (not his actions) were rational at all, and not simply a disturbed mental state. I just wanted to agree with you George that there is a great deal of arbitrary injustice at universities and employers. Ethics is in short supply at all levels.

BrianW
04-17-2007, 07:22 PM
Bob,

You 'double tapped.' :eek:

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-17-2007, 07:24 PM
Bob,

You 'double tapped.' :eek:

Yeah, connection froze up, after I saw it double, couldn't get back on. Drove me nuts enough that I went to a borrowed computer to delete it.

Phillip Allen
04-17-2007, 07:36 PM
And here's a bit of news...two of my neighbor's daughters didn't know about these shootings until I told them just now. They are 15 and 20 years old...I guess they were studying

Bob Adams
04-17-2007, 09:16 PM
Balderdash. If that guy yesterday at Virginia Tech had had to kill all his victims by strangling them, how many people do you think would have died? I suppose it is possible that he still might have managed to kill a few of people, but you can bet the death toll would not be what it was. If he'd been using a knife he probably would have managed to kill more than he would have by strangling, but I'm sure the death toll would still be less than what it was.

Yes, he could have killed as many people as he did using a bomb, but for whatever reason it seems to be quite rare for people like this guy to use a bomb as their tool. Bombs, for the most part, seem to be the tools of people who are trying to make a political statement, in other words terrorists, which is a separate problem.

I suspect that a blasting away at someone with a gun fits the pathology of this type of person much better than planting a bomb.

Extra Balderdash. Want to kill a bunch easy? Just run your car through a group of students like a lunitic did a few years ago. I don't remember any hue and cry to ban the Caddilac he used as a weapon. One person carrying a weapon could have stopped the VT carnage. The victums were rendered defenseless by the university's zero weapons tolerance policy. That policy did not deter the shooter.

Beach Party
04-17-2007, 09:24 PM
From the reports I've heard, he was using semi-automatic clips. I think it quite likely that by the time you had gotten your gun out of your backpack you'd have been dead...

Semi- automatic "CLIPS"? Never heard of one. Semi- auto weapons yes, but not clips.


At the worst I would have died as a man, not a sniveling coward hiding behind my book bag, hoping he didnt see me.

glenallen
04-17-2007, 09:44 PM
And here's a bit of news...two of my neighbor's daughters didn't know about these shootings until I told them just now. They are 15 and 20 years old...I guess they were studying


Dallas TV network stations didn't know about it(or didn't give a big rat's-ass) till 5 hours after the fact.

I saw it on CNN about 11:00AM. Checked on three network stations out of Dallas at 1:00PM and saw soap operas as scheduled.
Of course, if it had happened in Dallas it would have had the attention of the local media maggots.
Where's Virginia?

Rum_Pirate
04-17-2007, 10:45 PM
you could be dressed up like a pirate if you like
Oi ! :)

One silver lining, in the whole episode, is that the murderer killed himself, saving court costs, appeal costs, prison costs, physcologist costs (got to get him back to a normal person to go back into society :rolleyes: ), half way house costs etc etc.

The great pity is that he did not put a bullet (or two) through his brain BEFORE he killed his fellow students. :mad:

Memphis Mike
04-17-2007, 11:10 PM
Semi- automatic "CLIPS"? Never heard of one. Semi- auto weapons yes, but not clips.


At the worst I would have died as a man, not a sniveling coward hiding behind my book bag, hoping he didnt see me.

My gut tells me you have no experience with a firearm whatsoever. You wouldn't be bragging about it if you did.

Just the fact that you said you would empty your weapon speaks volumes.

I wonder how many innocent people you would kill in close proximity to your target.

If you really are carrying a gun to school, I hope you are caught.

Tom M.
04-17-2007, 11:49 PM
I find the evidence of the low rates of gun violence in many countries in which guns are relatively rare more compelling evidence than anything I've seen that tries to show that more guns are the way to reduce gun violence.

For a clearer picture of the effect of banning firearms, I'd like to see stats that reveal:

-Gun homicides before the ban vs. after
-Total homicides before the ban vs. after

A homicide is a homicide. No need to discriminate against firearms if other tools of murder take up the slack when firearms aren't available.

BrianW
04-17-2007, 11:54 PM
I wonder how many innocent people you would kill in close proximity to your target.

Oh, probably more than the guy shooting semi-auto clips (zero), but less than 33. That's my guess.

Memphis Mike
04-17-2007, 11:56 PM
For a clearer picture of the effect of banning firearms, I'd like to see stats that reveal:

-Gun homicides before the ban vs. after
-Total homicides before the ban vs. after

A homicide is a homicide. No need to discriminate against firearms if other tools of murder take up the slack when firearms aren't available.

I bet that kid could not have killed 32 people with a knife as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I bet he could not have done it with a long gun either.

geeman
04-17-2007, 11:56 PM
I wonder,,,, how many here that are so brave, have experienced facing down the wrong end of a barrel? its not fun.
Or, how many here have actually had to unholster their weapon if they were armed?
Those kids ,were terrorized,I cant imagine what they were going thru.If I were to guess, ,,,, they were stunned, saying in their minds over and over "this cant be happening, this cant be happening.
Our kids are used to being protected,most have never experienced any sort of REAL violence.
This guy was a nut job, he was going to kill people,period.

Tom M.
04-18-2007, 12:15 AM
This might be a little radical here, but the notion is nothing new---we ask what's wrong with us? Why do these killings happen? I find its more useful to ask why we are so upset by these events. Not that its bad (or good) to be upset. Its just that I've always found it strange that people are so quick to condemn the ones that commit these acts as "sick", "crazy", "deluded", "inhuman" "sociopath" and on and on. To me, it always seems like people are trying to distance themselves from the one who committed the act. No why would we do that? There's a lack of willingness to really understand. Norman and Jami had an exchange on this tread about "trying to understand the incomprehensible." I think that's a worthy mission, and an intensly personal one as well. To anyone trying to understand an act like what happened at Virginia Tech, I suggest you begin by looking inside yourself.

Tom M.
04-18-2007, 12:19 AM
I bet that kid could not have killed 32 people with a knife as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I bet he could not have done it with a long gun either.

I think he coulda been more deadly with a rifle if he was competent. But that's beside the point. I want stats.

Tom Montgomery
04-18-2007, 01:04 AM
Where have we gone wrong?

My 2 cents...

As a society we have become obsessively interested in violence. Witness popular entertainment, the sensationalist nature of television news coverage (if it bleeds, it leads), and our nation's constant involvement in military conflict.

It appears that this young man was mentally ill. Severe mental illness often manifests itself in late adolescence and early adulthood. Is it really so surprising that, in todays society, delusional ideation is often of a violent nature? And that perhaps this type of violent delusional ideation was not so common 50 and 100 years ago?

Kaa
04-18-2007, 01:21 AM
And that perhaps this type of violent delusional ideation was not so common 50 and 100 years ago?

You have any evidence for that statement? I doubt it very much. There were two world wars in that period and you think young men were less violent..?

Kaa

Tom Montgomery
04-18-2007, 01:32 AM
No, no evidence. This is just my conjecture. Perhaps I should have said, "100 and 150 years ago."

However, it is not a conjecture about "young men" in general; it is a conjecture about the changing nature of the manifestation of mental illness. I would be willing to bet that the nature of delusions and the expression of illness changes as the culture changes. Are there any mental health professionals here who would care to comment?

ishmael
04-18-2007, 04:15 AM
Tom,

As I alluded to earlier, one shift in the mental health scene over the last couple decades is the proliferation of powerful drugs. Not just the anti-depressants, a whole new range of anti-psychotics as well. Concurrently there's been a cutting of in-treatment, so people who aren't well adapted are more often on the streets, their medications not well supervised. People who previously would have been locked down because they were considered a danger to themselves or others are much more likely to be shuffled through the system quickly and given one or more prescriptions. As with all things this chemical revolution has positives and negatives, but my impression when I worked in the trenches was that a lot of people were slipping through the cracks.

That doesn't explain this young man. From what I've read of the story there were signs he was pretty troubled, though probably nothing commitable. What, proactively, can we do about such disturbed young men? Other than working to shift the culture of violence which gives them permission to act out, and encouraging mentoring by older males, I don't know that there's much. I wonder if a strong male mentor at the right time might have avoided this tragedy. I'll also be interested to hear his psychiatric history--if we ever do. Dollars to doughnuts he was on anti-depressants.

Phillip Allen
04-18-2007, 05:59 AM
We live in a "fix-it" culture. It's not a bad attitude to go through life with. If something's wrong, fix it. However, there are things we can’t fix and there's the rub. When, as in this case, we can't fix something we scurry around, sometimes blindly, and feel a strong desire to "fix" something. There are predators in high places who know this and this is when they come outa the wood-work demanding higher taxes and sacrifices (generally either their neighbors' sacrifices or one of their own that they weren't concerned with losing in the first place). Now we will feel national guilt and someone will demand we fix it by giving up more personal autonomy...click goes the ratchet.

Like the “what-if” I posed for my cousin about the 9-11 tragedy where the men tried to take back the plane, there have already been “what-if’s” posed about this tragedy. With that in mind, what if a relative of one of the victims begins litigation to the school for not allowing the (now dead) student to carry a weapon to defend himself. He had no means of defense (imposed by the school) and the result is wrongful death…reckon the news would pick up on that?

Beach Party
04-18-2007, 06:23 AM
The answer to the gun problem we have in our country is not more guns.

This is as ignorant as it gets. It isnt a problem with guns it is a PEOPLE problem.


And by the way- I trained with the best in combat situations. Not braggin just telling it like it is.

Beach Party
04-18-2007, 06:26 AM
We live in a "fix-it" culture. It's not a bad attitude to go through life with. If something's wrong, fix it. However, there are things we can’t fix and there's the rub. When, as in this case, we can't fix something we scurry around, sometimes blindly, and feel a strong desire to "fix" something. There are predators in high places who know this and this is when they come outa the wood-work demanding higher taxes and sacrifices (generally either their neighbors' sacrifices or one of their own that they weren't concerned with losing in the first place). Now we will feel national guilt and someone will demand we fix it by giving up more personal autonomy...click goes the ratchet.




One of the best posts I have seen on this forum- well thought out Phillip Allen and dead on.

BZ

Rational Root
04-18-2007, 06:32 AM
When you look past the Gun Laws and the reasons and the arguments about solutions and causes, there's the Parents.

Imagine how they are feeling as they wake up today.

As a parent, looking down at my 5 month old daughter, I cannot imagine how the parents of the murdered children feel now.

My heart goes out to them. To the brothers and sisters of the dead. To their friends.

Phillip Allen
04-18-2007, 06:44 AM
When you look past the Gun Laws and the reasons and the arguments about solutions and causes, there's the Parents.

Imagine how they are feeling as they wake up today.

As a parent, looking down at my 5 month old daughter, I cannot imagine how the parents of the murdered children feel now.

My heart goes out to them. To the brothers and sisters of the dead. To their friends.


Those parents are in shock no doubt. They are making arrangements for the funeral, accommodating the gathering of friends and relatives and getting together in small or large groups and talking about what their lost friend or relative would have wanted. Dinners will happen spontaneously, small children will play much more quietly than normal...they know this is the time to keep the noise down. Most of these children are stressed because their parents are stressed...often the gathers will have a surreal aspect.

ishmael
04-18-2007, 06:59 AM
Some worthwhile observations about male psychology were made by Robert Bly a couple decades ago. Our young men, their fire and fear, is not being well sheperded these days. One of Bly's points was that the hierarchy has been lost. Read his "The Sibling Society." This young man's violence, if contained and focused by an older man who understood his native aggression and anger, and had authority, might have ended very differently. But the culture has undercut that authority, made us all siblings. Male authority has been degraded in general. Distinction, black and white reasoning, right and wrong, important aspects of male psychology have all lost ground in the last 100 years.

There are things that are right, and there are things men should channel their energies into which they are willing to fight and die for. Much of modern culture is a strange twisting of potentials.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 07:11 AM
some details are coming out , although i try to avoid any hype tv reporting , maybe listen to a radio report only , truly awful for the families and friends and students and faculty

would like to hear more about them

Gary E
04-18-2007, 07:24 AM
If you really are carrying a gun to school, I hope you are caught.

Whose gona save your @ss Mike?
some idea of tolerance and divergence??
At least that Marine will try...

Popeye
04-18-2007, 07:28 AM
..some idea of tolerance and divergence..


such lectures can be found in most universities around the world

George.
04-18-2007, 07:39 AM
BTW,

England's non-murder/rape crime rate has increased since the gun ban, above that of the US.

Hardly the place to use as an example. I suspect Brazil would be a better choice.

It would not. We have a still-active frontier, a fiercely individualistic mentality, an incompetent police force, and a skyrocketing crime rate. As a result, we have plenty of gun advocates and gun owners - legal and illegal.

A recent referendum to ban guns was defeated, and they are still freely available. Kids get them all the time, and kill people with them.

The difference is that we never get freaks shooting up a school or McDonalds full of strangers. Our gun crime rate is higher, but it is not "senseless." Guns are used to steal or defend gang turf, not to kill dozens of people people for no reason. That seems to be a peculiarly American phenomenom.

Like I said - it's not the guns. It's the culture.

Chris Coose
04-18-2007, 07:40 AM
Live peace.
Teach peace.

ishmael
04-18-2007, 07:48 AM
Hm, guns. I'm natively libertarian and figure if you want to pack, and aren't a wack job, you ought to be allowed.

The only somewhat personal experience I have is from my brother. He lived in Fresno, CA, and would often pocket a little Beretta when going out and about. Insurance. The one time he might have used it was in a convenience store robbery he happened to be in the midst of. The robber had the drop on everyone, so brother decided not to make an issue. He was packing illegally, BTW. The robber was a scared kid who wasn't about to shoot people willy nilly.

The Rambo issue, having a pistol and taking out the bad guy(s) isn't what usually happens. The scenarios we see like VT are pretty rare. That said, I wouldn't have a problem with competent people having the right to carry on our campuses. It likely would have saved lives dealing with this nutcase.

Gun culture is an odd complexity. I've never been big into them, though I do have a few around. I like things well made, mechanical, ballistic, so I understand how people get involved. I wager every home within spitting distance here in rural Maine has a firearm, more or less primed. I never think twice about it. We all know and respect them. Good, honest folks. The thought of any of them doing something crazy is ridiculous.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 07:53 AM
i thought guns were meant to ward off the british

Milo Christensen
04-18-2007, 07:55 AM
Where have we gone wrong?

Interesting speculations early in this thread, nearly all of which will prove to be wrong.

Where we go wrong is not paying more attention to the extremely isolated young people who are crying out for help, witness the "creative" writing of the shooter, which was so disturbed that his professor told counsellors and even the police that the shooter had a problem.

What did the people notified do? THat's the question that has to be asked again and again, because the answer is nothing. That's where we went wrong. This shooter, like so many others, behaved in ways that fit the profile we've come to know so well. Despite showing very disturbing signs of violent thoughts, he was allowed to buy the 9mm Glock 36 days before the shooting. When you let crazy people buy guns, crazy things happen.

brad9798
04-18-2007, 08:33 AM
I agree, mostly, Milo ... but with nothing in his background to suggest, how is the gun dealer to know?

Even if he did know, and he said no to the kid ... well, it is actually easier, usually cheaper, and much faster to get a gun illegally ... based on my experience.

DESENSITIZED, I am beginning to believe that, Memphis.

Hell, in the last week around here, folks have been saying how wonderful THE 300 is ... the new Tarantino movie, etc.

Heck, I was watching the Shield on FX last night ... one of the most brutal scenes I've ever seen ... tv or film happened on that show ... very disturbing.

Brad

Milo Christensen
04-18-2007, 08:42 AM
... but with nothing in his background to suggest, how is the gun dealer to know? . . .

Nothing in his background to suggest is the problem. Note that I didn't blame the gun dealer, but a background check should have had some kind of "don't sell to and call the cops if he trys to buy" flag on this shooter. This shooter was so isolated that he probably would have been unable to connect to an illegal source. Very strange case. Unique, really, other than the feeling that the "in" crowd was putting him down, that's a common theme among the lone shooters.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 08:46 AM
not many can see their own attributes , we are here for a short time you know , and we have an opportunity to lay some good things on the next generation

too many failings in too many ways , listen to the message

Milo Christensen
04-18-2007, 08:50 AM
...

too many failings in too many ways , listen to the message

And you, my rock dwelling friend, have been getting weirder and weirder of late.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 08:58 AM
and the alternative proposal is to gun down disturbed people

geeman
04-18-2007, 09:06 AM
In my area, there are a lot of the "Goth" crowd.The black clothes with spikes on them,the dyed black hair,or sometimes streaked hair etc.
It's part of my job to make sure these kids dont cause a problem in our Mall.Sometimes they do, most times they dont.
When I Do have to come down on a few of those kids ,I try to follow up on the kids problems.In almost every case I find a difficult home life, where the parents are well to do but have no time for the kids. I also find that a lot of these kids feel left out of the "normal social" scene, so they join a group that is almost sure to except them. I see this pattern over and over.
The reason I do investigate these kids isnt because I'm out to get these kids, but just the opposite.I try to find a way to reach them.To get them to understand that,,,,
1 I understand how they feel but,,
2 We have a business to run and I cant allow them to disrupt it.
Usually, I ban them from the Mall for a time,usually a week.To these kids, this is a life altering experience.Not being allowed in the Mall in our town here ,cuts them out of a great deal of the "social" scene.And yes I know I stand a chance of making it worse,pushing them over the edge,but still,I have to make an effort to reach them on some level.When I let them back in the building and grounds I explain to them WHY I banned them, and that by allowing them back in I'm trusting them to behave in a more socially reasonable manner.
This works almost 100% of the time.Not EVERY time, but enough to make it worth my time and effort.
BTW, after these kids age a bit, ,sometimes years later they come back,ask to shake my hand and thank me for being hard on them and showing some interest in them.I have heard them say that most people just brushed them aside and made the problem go away by making THEM go away.They thank me for not taking that easy way out.

Gary E
04-18-2007, 09:12 AM
Nothing in his background to suggest is the problem. Note that I didn't blame the gun dealer, but a background check should have had some kind of "don't sell to and call the cops if he trys to buy" flag on this shooter. This shooter was so isolated that he probably would have been unable to connect to an illegal source. Very strange case. Unique, really, other than the feeling that the "in" crowd was putting him down, that's a common theme among the lone shooters.

THAT is called DESCRIMINATION....

What do you want others to prevent you from buying?
He met ALL the requirements of the Feds...and the State and now you want him to check in with YOU??

Dan McCosh
04-18-2007, 09:17 AM
It's not because Americans have easy guns. Not that simple.

Americans are conditioned by their culture to believe in a shoot-them-up solution to issues. For example, in the typical American cop show or movie, the crime is "solved" and the bad guys are punished, not through intelligent investigation and well-done legal prosecution, but by the "good" guys shooting the "bad"guys - no trial, no doubts, no errors, no consequences.

Maniccheism, moral certainty, and guns. In that order.

What accounts for the horrific murder rate in Brazil?

geeman
04-18-2007, 09:18 AM
As I mentioned in a post a few minutes ago.I have some real life experience in this area of "in crowd"
I dont mean to answer for Milo but what I think he means is schools need to at least attempt to follow up on cases like this.That there needs to be some method of working with the locals or feds for listing such a person as a possible threat or a sort of "red flag" that goes on record.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Milo here, but I believe thats what he saying .

George.
04-18-2007, 09:18 AM
A bunch of madmen use airplanes as mass murder weapons once - and some Americans accept turning airports into hell, relinquishing all privacy, adopting torture as a means of "self-defense", and generally subordinating even their hallowed Constitution to preventing another incident.

Madmen shoot up schools and other public places consistently, on a yearly basis - and those same Americans evoke their hallowed 2nd amendment to resist any restriction, no matter how mild, on the "right" to own weapons of war.

The 2nd amendment is absolute. The rest of the Constitution is contingent and subordinate to paranoid fears and adolescent fantasies.

Milo Christensen
04-18-2007, 09:20 AM
THAT is called DESCRIMINATION....

What do you want others to prevent you from buying?
He met ALL the requirements of the Feds...and the State and now you want him to check in with YOU??

Please, I know it's hard, but try harder to comprehend what's being said. When a college professor refers someone to counselling for extreme anti-social behaviour, do you want them to be able to buy a gun?

Popeye
04-18-2007, 09:20 AM
looking beyond trees , normally one spots a forest

geeman
04-18-2007, 09:23 AM
One other thing,all the news of this around the world blaming the US and its citizens is just to put us down.Countries now love to show how "crude" we are and will point out any area that they can to show our faults.The fact that a lot of countries go thru this sort of thing EVERYDAY seems lost in reporting how bad we are.

George.
04-18-2007, 09:23 AM
What accounts for the horrific murder rate in Brazil?

A weak and incompetent government, police corruption, the illegality of selected drugs, decades of left-wing class warfare propaganda and right-wing hard-line attitudes, a dismal Gini index, a selfish and cynical elite, an ignorant and indolent populace, bloated, failed cities, a slow and lenient system of justice, and the easy availability of firearms.

If you want more details, start a new thread.

Milo Christensen
04-18-2007, 09:26 AM
. . . I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Milo here, but I believe thats what he saying .

O.K., I'll ask you the same question: Do you think a person exhibiting extreme anti-social tendencies should be allowed to buy a gun?

As I mentioned in my original post, which I don't want to be overlooked, the problem is that the shooter was identified as having a serious problem and was referred and apparently there was no followup.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 09:28 AM
The fact that a lot of countries go thru this sort of thing EVERYDAY seems lost in reporting how bad we are.

china has over 500 missiles aimed at taiwan as we speak

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-18-2007, 09:37 AM
Defender Of The Realm

Reigny Knight in Georgia?

George.
04-18-2007, 09:42 AM
Dan, you cant mention Brazil to George. George will simply tell you that we really dont want to talk about Brazil so therefore its not on the table.

George what amazes me is you come from a culture that handles street children and the homeless by employing contract killers. It must be convenient to not want to talk about your culture but rather the US.

Go stuff it George.

You go stuff it, C223. I'll discuss Brazil with you or anyone, anytime - preferrably in a specific thread, but hijacking this one, if you insist.

And because I am not a coward or an idiot, I will not need to use whining and personal attacks to keep people from commenting on my country's problems. I will neither hide my head in the sand, nor become agressive when others notice Brazil's shortcomings.

Try it yourself, if you have the balls and intellect.

BrianW
04-18-2007, 09:42 AM
Gents,

I only mentioned Brazil as an alternative to Britain, or maybe just England. Not to change the topic.

There must be a better model for gun control than Britain though, because that one didn't work out well.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-18-2007, 09:44 AM
It's the problem of getting the genie back in the bottle.
It seems the only way to get rid of guns is to get rid of them ALL - government included, or no one will feel (or be) safe.
AFAIK only one country has ever tried to do this and had any sort of success and that's Japan.
Ultimately that too was a failure.
Since getting this particular genie back in his bottle is impossible...
that leaves us with the social engineers who trust the government to always do the right thing and the realists who don't.

Please explain. I rather think that the elimination of firearms under the Tokugawa shogunate was a complete sucess, and has continued to this day.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-18-2007, 09:47 AM
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/18/news/japan.php

Gary E
04-18-2007, 09:48 AM
Please, I know it's hard, but try harder to comprehend what's being said. When a college professor refers someone to counselling for extreme anti-social behaviour, do you want them to be able to buy a gun?


I damn sure dont want any college prof to determine that...
If you leave the worlds rules up to them, we're all screwed.

By the way.. are you a college prof?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-18-2007, 09:49 AM
For the umpteenth time, the crime rate in Britain

HAS NOT RISEN FOLLOWING THE BAN ON HANDGUNS

Do I have to post the official UK crime statistics on this forum for the
fourth time, or will you just take my word for it?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-18-2007, 09:51 AM
<accent=on mode="Robert Robinson">
Ahh, but why let an inconvenient fact spoil a good argument?</Accent>

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-18-2007, 09:55 AM
Followed, as is customary after these rather regular events, by the good people of the United States assuring each other that the fact that the killer could just go out and buy a Glock semi-automatic pistol and fifty rounds of ammunition from a dealer had nothing to do with it.

Nicht neue in dem West.:(

Tom Hunter
04-18-2007, 09:59 AM
I looked at a Wall Street Journal forum on this before coming here. That one instantly sank into a illegal guns vs. legal guns debate which is a pretty stupid way to discuss the what happened. Kudos to this group for being smarter than that.

A few things I have noticed while trying to understand this and what we as a society might do, and what an individual can do.

1) These mass shootings happen more often in the US, partly because we have more people and partly because we have something like 200 million guns in private hands.

2) They also happen in societies with much stricker gun control laws. If you could enact UK style gun controls in the US you might have fewer shootings of this type.

3) Political reality makes changes to the law unlikely

4) But even if you could change the law there are still 200 million guns out there, and we already know that at best tough guns laws reduce but don't eliminate these kinds of shootings. There is also a cultural problem, lots of people in the US really do care about their freedom (as they would describe it) to own guns. Making them illegal would make these people very angry, and probably create some of the same problems we had when alchohol was illegal. I'm not certain of this, but the law of unintended consiquences could easly take effect.

5) Looking at mass shootings the worst ones happen in gun free zones. There are a number of mass shootings in recent years that ended with fewer casualties because some one, sometimes an off duty law enforcement official but often a shopkeeper or other private individual, had access to a gun and interviened. In a country that swims in guns there seems to be a substantial price to pay for banning them IF a mass shooter shows up. We can see this in the current case, once he chained the doors shut the shooter new he was safe until the police broke the doors down.

6) In the US it is against the law to stop someone from preparing for an event like this. A number of people were very concerned about this shooter and none of them were able to take action capable of stopping him though to their credit several people appear to have tried. If the shooter is smart they can almost certainly stall authorities until they are ready to act.

These are all just facts based on the evidence I have found reading about this case and others. I don't own a gun and have no desire to change that.


A few other observations

I suspect that one reason we have so many of these shootings around the world (more in the US, but they happen everywhere) is moden media makes everyone aware of them and people copy this idea just as they copy every other idea both good and bad. 100 or 150 years ago if something like this happened few people would know about it. Now everyone does. I don't think its the only reason but I suspect its a contributing factor.

I don't agree with Shane that video games or movies cause this behavior, they are simply not that powerful. I can only speak for the US and New England where I have lived all my life, but there have been huge changes in the way we look at violence in my life. Its accepted in the movies, TV and games, but it is completely unacceptable in schools and larger society. When I was a kid we did things every day that would get todays student expelled or maybe even arrested. We were much more violent to eachother, but we saw much less of it on TV and in the movies, there were no computer games in those days. I don't know if this is healthier or not, but the move from low level real world violence to high level virtual violence is a big change. So is the move to intolerence of any real world violence and tolerance of any virtual violence. Before we seemed to tolarate a little of both, but not too much of either.

I don't know what to do about a guy like the one in Virginia, but I do feel its a complex problem that will require complex solutions, I appreciate the comments here, thanks to everyone who is wieghing in.

George Roberts
04-18-2007, 10:04 AM
Perhaps we could just have better people in the world.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-18-2007, 10:08 AM
It's just the US form of suicide bombing. Nothing to be concerned about.

George.
04-18-2007, 10:41 AM
There are a number of mass shootings in recent years that ended with fewer casualties because some one, sometimes an off duty law enforcement official but often a shopkeeper or other private individual, had access to a gun and interviened.


References, please.

Kaa
04-18-2007, 10:43 AM
This was originally written after 9/11, but it works quite well for the VA shootings as well..


Of course the [...] are a uniquely tragic event, and it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. However, we must also consider if this is not also a lesson to us all; a lesson that my political views are correct. Although what is done can never be undone, the fact remains that if the world were organised according to my political views, this tragedy would never have happened.

Many people will use this terrible tragedy as an excuse to put through a political agenda other than my own. This tawdry abuse of human suffering for political gain sickens me to the core of my being. Those people who have different political views from me ought to be ashamed of themselves for thinking of cheap partisan point-scoring at a time like this. In any case, what this tragedy really shows us is that, so far from putting into practice political views other than my own, it is precisely my political agenda which ought to be advanced.

Not only are my political views vindicated by this terrible tragedy, but also the status of my profession. Furthermore, it is only in the context of a national and international tragedy like this that we are reminded of the very special status of my hobby, and its particular claim to legislative protection. My religious and spiritual views also have much to teach us about the appropriate reaction to these truly terrible events.

Countries which I like seem to never suffer such tragedies, while countries which, for one reason or another, I dislike, suffer them all the time. The one common factor which seems to explain this has to do with my political views, and it suggests that my political views should be implemented as a matter of urgency, even though they are, as a matter of fact, not implemented in the countries which I like.

Of course the [...] are a uniquely tragic event, and it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. But we must also not lose sight of the fact that I am right on every significant moral and political issue, and everybody ought to agree with me. Please, I ask you as fellow human beings, vote for the political party which I support, and ask your legislators to support policies endorsed by me, as a matter of urgency.

It would be a fitting memorial. Kaa

peb
04-18-2007, 10:45 AM
Here are my thoughts about some of this.

Crime rates in US vs Europe: Based on only anedoctal evidence of my travels throughout Europe, I would say small time crime (muggings, pickpockets) are worse in Europe than the US. Murder would definitely seem worse in the US (or the Europeans leave it out of their newspapers.

Gun control: I own guns, I enjoy using guns (full disclosure). I feel like the concealed carry laws don't make much difference either way. I think we should have the technology for instant background checks on all gun purchases that would only allow guns to be purchased on the spot by those with clean criminal record and no record of mental health disorders. If you have a record of mental health problems, require some type of review period and for certain problems don't let people buy them. This is not extreme. I have first hand experience with family members with mental health problems and they go through periods where gun ownership would not be a good thing.

Also, Require a licence to own any handgun.

Other thoughts: we live in a culture of violence and death. When people are unstable, our culture itself tends to push people over the edge.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 10:48 AM
.By the way.. are you a college prof?

not sure he can be trusted with pointy scissors

Milo Christensen
04-18-2007, 10:51 AM
I damn sure dont want any college prof to determine that...
If you leave the worlds rules up to them, we're all screwed.

By the way.. are you a college prof?

I don't want college prof's determining that either, but in this case the prof saw a problem and made several referrals. Focus on the issue. It's not a disarm the people issue, it's a mental health issue. So, in a way, it becomes a disable the nut jobs from buying a handgun issue.

Answer my question: Should someone with violent, extreme anti-social tendencies be able to buy a gun?

And yes, I have taught college courses at the adjunct level.

Dan McCosh
04-18-2007, 10:51 AM
The lengthy history of periodic outbursts of mass killings in the US. (Frank Lloyd Wright's home; Charles Whitman come to mind.) seems to preclude the idea that recent social changes are the "cause." The nature of our society makes it vulnerable to the occasional alienated psychotic. The gun advocates might look at how many US policemen run amok--something I've never seen any data on, but news stories are pretty common. Another question--how many were--like Whitman and McVeigh--in the military?

Keith Wilson
04-18-2007, 10:56 AM
I feel like the concealed carry laws don't make much difference either way.Minnesota changed its concealed carry law a couple of years ago. It used to be very difficult to get a license; now it's fairly easy. AFAIK there has been no discernible effect so far.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 10:56 AM
And yes, I have taught college courses at the adjunct level.

there's the case cracker right there

BrianW
04-18-2007, 10:57 AM
For the umpteenth time, the crime rate in Britain

HAS NOT RISEN FOLLOWING THE BAN ON HANDGUNS

Do I have to post the official UK crime statistics on this forum for the
fourth time, or will you just take my word for it?

Okay, but Wikipedia says this...


Homicide and firearms crime

In 2005/06 there were 766 offences initially recorded as homicide by the police in England and Wales (including the 52 victims of the 7 July 2005 London bombings),[15] a rate of 1.4 per 100,000 of population. Only 50 (6.6%) were committed with firearms, one being with an air weapon.[16] The homicide rate for London was 2.4 per 100,000 in the same year (1.7 when excluding the 7 July bombings).[17]

By comparison, 5.5 murders per 100,000 of population were reported by police in the United States in 2000, of which 70% involved the use of firearms (75% of which were illegally obtained).[18] New York City, with a population size similar to London and similar firearms laws with almost all firearms prohibited to normal citizens (over 7 million residents), reported 6.9 murders per 100,000 people in 2004.[19]

The rise in UK gun crime is a long term trend that is apparently unaffected by the state of UK firearms legislation. [20] Before the 1997 ban, handguns were only held by 0.1% of the population,[21] and while the number of crimes involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 24,070 in 2002/03, they remained relatively static at 24,094 in 2003/04, and have since fallen to 21,521 in 2005/06. The latter includes 3,275 crimes involving imitation firearms and 10,437 involving air weapons, compared to 566 and 8,665 respectively in 1998/99.[22] Only those "firearms" positively identified as being imitations or air weapons (e.g. by being recovered by the police or by being fired) are classed as such, so the actual numbers are likely to be significantly higher. In 2005/06, 8,978 of the total of 21,521 firearms crimes (42%) were for criminal damage.[23]

Since 1998 number of people injured by firearms in England and Wales has more than doubled[24] from 2,378 in 1998/99 to 4,001 in 2005/06. "Injury" in this context means by being fired, used a blunt instrument, or as a threat. In 2005/06, 87% of such injuries were defined as "slight," which includes the use of firearms as a threat only. The number of homicides committed with firearms has remained between a range of 46 and 97 for the past decade, standing at 50 in 2005/06 (a fall from 75 the previous year). Between 1998/99 and 2005/06, there have been only two fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales. Over the same period there were 107 non-fatal shootings of police officers - an average of just 9.7 per year.[25]

Not trying to insult your fine land, just mentioning some facts which have been listed.

Gary E
04-18-2007, 10:59 AM
I don't want college prof's determining that either, but in this case the prof saw a problem and made several referrals. Focus on the issue. It's not a disarm the people issue, it's a mental health issue. So, in a way, it becomes a disable the nut jobs from buying a handgun issue.

Answer my question: Should someone with violent, extreme anti-social tendencies be able to buy a gun?

And yes, I have taught college courses at the adjunct level.

THe Feds and the State have examined ALL potential handgun buyers and found that in THIS CASE HE PASSED ALL THE TESTS...

I DO NOT want any college prof to have that much say so over ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING... conclusinon... sell'em the gun

Now... also permit the rest of society to carry a gun and maybe, just maybe someone in that school building would of ended that crap before to many were killed.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 11:03 AM
i always felt better when i knew the hall monitor was packing heat

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-18-2007, 11:06 AM
Gary, no disagreement with those numbers.

We've seen a substantial decrease in property crime (burglary, mugging, etc) and an increase in crimes against the person short of murder; overall, the crime rate has fallen. Quite possibly, much of the remaining property crime is drug related, as is a good deal of the firearms crime.

It's also possible that property crime is just "less worth while".

Edited to add: I still own a Webley pistol - but it's a .177 air pistol. Still a nicely made little thing.

BrianW
04-18-2007, 11:19 AM
i always felt better when i knew the hall monitor was packing heat

Interesting point.

Check out this letter written to the editor of the Roanoke Times after the August 21st 2006 incident at VT...


Unarmed and vulnerable

Bradford B. Wiles

Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.

On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: "You need to get out of the building."

Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.

It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.

Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.

I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.

First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.

Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.

Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.

Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.

That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.

I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, "I would feel safer if you had your gun."

The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry in Virginia needs to be changed.

I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government.

This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.

What's more ironic, is the reply...


Tuesday, September 05, 2006

Larry Hincker

Hincker is the associate vice president for university relations at Virginia Tech.

After the fear, and dare I say, panic from the events of Aug. 21, it is absolutely mind-boggling to see the opinions of Bradford Wiles ("Unarmed and vulnerable," Aug. 31).

I once worked for an out-of-touch manager who gave rather absurd directions. My colleagues and I would do as directed and dubbed it "malicious compliance," knowing the task to be inane and the manager's foibles would soon be apparent.

The editors of this page must have printed this commentary if for no other reason than malicious compliance. Surely, they scratched their heads saying, "I can't believe he really wants to say that."

Wiles tells us that he didn't feel safe with the hundreds of highly trained officers armed with high powered rifles encircling the building and protecting him. He even implies that he needed his sidearm to protect himself against the officers.

On that fateful Monday, campus was understandably on edge. Elvis-type sightings of the escaped prisoner around campus were rampant. People were legitimately concerned about where he might be. And although the police were relatively confident they had the suspect cornered (they were ultimately proved right), the anxiety level elsewhere on campus was very high.

Panic calls from within the Squires Student Center quickly morphed from facts into rumors, including a frantic call alleging a hostage situation. The police had no choice but to move a massive force from the manhunt site to that side of campus to deal with the hostage rumor.

The writer would have us believe that a university campus, with tens of thousands of young people, is safer with everyone packing heat. Imagine the continual fear of students in that scenario. We've seen that fear here, and we don't want to see it again.

Who among us thinks the writer of the commentary would not have been directly in harm's way if he showed himself to those tactical squads while displaying a deadly weapon? Would he even be here today to tell us the story? Contrary to his position, the writer's commentary actually gives credence to the university policy preventing weapons in classrooms.

Guns don't belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 11:32 AM
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/monaco2/images/muttjeff.jpg

Memphis Mike
04-18-2007, 12:05 PM
Seems like another case where the warning signals were not heeded. This kid should not have had access to guns.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/?GT1=9246

Tom Hunter
04-18-2007, 12:18 PM
I have not done a really in depth study of mass killings but here are 3 that were in the opinion section of the Wall Street Journal

Pearl, Miss., high school in 1997, where assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a handgun from his car and apprehended a school shooter.

Or what happened at Appalachian Law School, in Grundy, Va., in 2002, when a mass murder was stopped by two students with law-enforcement experience, one of whom retrieved his own gun from his vehicle.

Or in Edinboro, Pa., a few days after the Pearl event, when a school attack ended after a nearby merchant used a shotgun to force the attacker to desist.

There was another at the Trolly Square Mall in Salt Lake City, they have a no gun policy but an off duty cop happened to be breaking it when a shooter showed up.

I am sure the author of the peice has his own axes to grind, don't we all?

My particular axe is not so much pro or anti gun, as I am against acting without thinking through the possible consiquences. There are some really good reasons to ban guns in various places, but protection against this sort of incident does not seem to be one of them.

It is a really difficult question, how to actually stop this kind of thing from happening. Guns certainly matter, if he did not have one he could not have killed all these people. But so does mental health, if he had not been psychotic these people would all be alive too.

This terrible thing happened because a series of events, much as airline crashes do. There was a chance to stop him with some kind of psychotherapy, a chance to catch him after the first shooting, he apperently stalked a couple of girls if they had filed charges then he could not have gotten the guns legally. There were many opportunities to head this off, but that did not happen.

Osborne Russell
04-18-2007, 12:19 PM
If the SWAT team arrives and everyone has a gun, don't they have to shoot everyone?

Tom Hunter
04-18-2007, 12:28 PM
Osborne,

There is a considerable body of evidence that they may shoot you if you don't have a gun, or if you do.

Wild Dingo
04-18-2007, 12:32 PM
Tom I have no problem with anyone not agreeing with my comments

What I was trying to say with regard to the programs movies music computer games and yes video games was that we are impressing there themes and messages on IMPRESSIONABLE minds... a young child that is constantly seeing and playing or listening to these things will become to a degree conditioned to their theme... that is that if one gets in your way you kill them... killing them does NOT imply to them pain suffering or any of the other emotions that go with death but simply a means to their ends... it also adds a level of excitement and power... in other words they become conditioned to having no feelings about killing.

Most children will grow up without this having any lasting impact on their lives just as we did when we grew up playing cowboys and itchybums or re-enacting the war movies of the day imitating our heros... the trouble is that the kids of today have few heros as we knew them to imitate...

Actors? is the actor Bruce Willis a good hero for a child to follow in say watching Die Hard? or even Arny in any of the Terminator movies? what of the music is say Metallica a good role model? or Marylin Manson? compared to say John Wayne or Bill Ford of our day or Elvis or Johnny Cash or even such as Jim Morrison?... I know we had our "bad boys" such as say Alice Cooper and Black Sabbath even ACDC but compared to todays output of gangsta rap and goth music do they really compare?... the incessant boom boom boom into their minds direct from small speakers plugged into their ears at mach 10 volume? while playing some death based win at all costs computer game?

See in my view as these have evolved and such heros created so the target audience has grown younger and younger... our daughters are following sluts like Brittany and Shikira et all humping their asses all over the screen and many parents think its cute when their daughterr behave like them... when our children begin dark playacting yet parents think nothing of it... when our children abuse our old people without a second thought there is something indecent happening to their minds... so whats directly affecting their minds? what they watch what they play and what they hear... from a young age girls are encouraged by their music heros to be sluts and hos while the boys are encouraged to be gangsta and treat all and sundry with complete contempt... and yet many many parents dont seem to see it happening do nothing to discourage it and smile

Did we also not have programs of music such as we had here of Countdown wherein the musicians of the day were bought onto the small screen in our homes? of course we did... and yes during that time we had the mini and the bump etc but did we have the almost pornographic bump and groping grind of todays? no we didnt... so the effect was less than what is seen by todays children

No Im not saying every child is affected to such a degree that they become sluts hos gangstas and evil minded basturds killing people at whim but... they are contributing factors to the decline in the morals and humanity of our children...

Children as young as 6 selling drugs and taking drugs children as young as 10 shooting people without remorse or expectation of the very real fact that the other kid they shot is DEAD... children as young as 12 raping our elderly children behaving increasingly violently toward others including adults... children as young as 9 believing they have the power to standup to abuse and do whatever they like without any recourse... its happening all to frequently and with increasing violence... theres so many ways this society is letting our children down in our justice system in our child welfare departments in our cencorship of television movies and music videos and definantly in our lack of cencorship of computer games and within the home within the school and even within the police departments themselves who have become handcuffed in how they deal with these ever increasingly anti social children

As far as the issue of mental health goes mostly the departments concerned dont investigate... even here so Im not precluding Australia in this Im purposely INCLUDING it... but when our departments themselves fail to act on a person who others have noted some or many flags of serious mental health issues that could put themselves their families or others in danger then theres something very wrong with our societies... as a counsellor in another life I saw this constantly when I in that role would report a clients increasing psychosis increasing anti social behavior increasing depression increased suicidal tendancies and was ignored the client not helped in any way and that client dies because of that lack of intervention... we failed them just as the departments that were told of this young mands increasingly unstable state of mind did nothing they failed him... but more so they failed the community in which he lived and so the result was what happened... with intervention he may well have been helped and this sad appalling even may never have happened but they didnt they failed to take the reports seriously and so 33 people died.

We our societies failed... reports of increasingly unstable minds by professors by teachers by police by counsellors by psychiatrists by parents must be taken seriously and investigated AND acted upon!! to help these people BEFORE such as this happens.

I wont go into the gun issue simply because I dont agree it works... there have in the last month 3 shootings within 100 klicks of me one drug related one suicide and the other outright murder all with guns... so the knee jerk reaction to the Port Arthur massacre is NOT working so I wont get into the pros and cons of that.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 12:35 PM
wow , just imagine , no more overdue books at the library

Presuming Ed
04-18-2007, 12:37 PM
From a UK perspective, I thought that Andrew Marr in today's Daily Telegraph was a well written piece:



One of the endless problems of journalism is the awful, big event which is basically resistant to analysis, as in the Virginia university massacre. Rightly, any newspaper or TV organisation thinks it should show respect, and "proper news values", by describing the killings and the killer at some length. But it's also one of those stories which, frankly, tells us absolutely nothing about the human condition we did not already know, and has nothing to say about life here in Britain.

People go mad, driven that way by early abuse, chemical imbalances, frustrated lust or unconstrained power. They may commit evil acts. Where there are guns readily available, they may use guns to kill others. Perhaps Americans will now have the same debate we had after the Dunblane shootings, but I doubt it. They have a very different history. And that, really, is it. Yet because of the awesome number of deaths we will now have printed acres and broadcast hours of journalism scrabbling for something to say.

Perhaps we need a new typeface which announces: dreadful, nothing to add.

ishmael
04-18-2007, 12:52 PM
My understanding is this. The UK has always had much lower gun crime rates than the US. Much lower violent crime rates. But when their handgun ban went into effect the rates made a significant uptick. I believe that's borne out by the stats.

Our gun violence rates vary so much from place to place. This country is wildly diverse. I lived in Baltimore, MD when it was the murder capitol of the US. Where I live now I'll bet there are as many or more guns per person, yet it's really rare to have a murder. Make what you will.

George Jung
04-18-2007, 01:00 PM
I've tried to 'catch up' on this thread, but it's moving fast....

Just a few comments. Several have noted this young man had been identified by several professors, and I'd add, several of his friends/former roommates (who reported him several times and had him referred for counseling), and yet, he 'fell through the cracks'. I would tell you, from my personal experience, this was predictable. It's hard to believe how difficult it is to have someone like this placed in a situation (I'd suggest in-patient psychiatric) where they could actually get the help they need, and to protect the general public. I've had folks committed, who were evaluated, and quickly released, with a recommendation for out-patient care (which they frequently fail to follow through on); in their defense, I've not had any go on a mass murder spree. Therein lies the rub. We can't infringe on anyones personal rights, and unless that person is an obvious threat to himself or others, that's where it end. If you go on a murder spree, and don't kill yourself, you are then eligible. Insane, yes.

Several have posted on the current state of affairs in Hollywood, and all the good influence our current 'culture' may have on such behavior, and respect for life etc. Many good points, and it's not going to change that i can see.

My beef, however, is with the news media. After Columbine, they poured on 24 hr/day coverage for a week; you couldn't escape the attention. It was as easy to predict 'copycat' efforts, as falling off a log. Still, when this happens, what does the media do? Same ol', same ol'.... and we're seeing the results already. Bomb threat this morning at VT; yesterday, a highschool in Rapid City, SD, was shut down after a student entered with a gun. I expect there are similar scenarios elsewhere.

George. mentioned this is only a US phenomena; to an extent, true, but I recall after Columbine, there was a shooting in Canada, and I believe some incidences in Europe (could be wrong). Unfortuantely, we're being homogenized, and with world communication, we are one. I'd love it if the news media woudl show some smarts/ responsibility, and report like they gave a damn what their efforts might spawn. Maybe they should be held responsible.

An aside - I'm aware of one incident ( maybe last summer ?) where an off duty cop shot/killed a gunman at a mall; put a very short end to that spree; but I don't recall details.

Oh yes, one more detail. I've heard nothing about this guys family, home life etc. I really have to wonder about that; did they have concerns about his mental status? Did they try to intervene/help him previously? That could be illuminating.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-18-2007, 01:11 PM
Extra Balderdash. Want to kill a bunch easy? Just run your car through a group of students like a lunitic did a few years ago. I don't remember any hue and cry to ban the Caddilac he used as a weapon. One person carrying a weapon could have stopped the VT carnage. The victims were rendered defenseless by the university's zero weapons tolerance policy. That policy did not deter the shooter.

(My emphasis on the boldface above)
And there you have it in a nutshell, the problem with gun control at large; you disarm the wrong people. It is difficult to control a social problem by controlling the supply, be it alcohol, drugs, porn, guns, explosives, unless it is really really REALLY difficult to manufacture, and we can't even control NUCLEAR proliferation, and that's pretty difficult to manufacture.

George.
04-18-2007, 01:15 PM
I say, having to choose between guns and senseless violent movies and video games, keep the guns and chuck the rest.

That said, some of the "logic" on display here would make you support allowing airplane passangers to carry guns - 9-11 could have been prevented!

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-18-2007, 01:16 PM
...what if a relative of one of the victims begins litigation to the school for not allowing the (now dead) student to carry a weapon to defend himself. He had no means of defense (imposed by the school) and the result is wrongful death…reckon the news would pick up on that?

VERY interesting thought. Much larger implications too.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 01:19 PM
the guy who did the 'maggie and jiggs' comics , always left out the pupils when he drew the eyeballs

i think he coulda used a coffee or something

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-18-2007, 01:29 PM
It's just the US form of suicide bombing. Nothing to be concerned about.

Also an interesting comment. I don't think it applies perfectly, as I don't think there were any political motives, but it does make you think and compare our situation with countries where suicide bombing is commonplace. I'm impressed with people here thinking outside the box, kudos.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-18-2007, 01:39 PM
I say, having to choose between guns and senseless violent movies and video games, keep the guns and chuck the rest.

That said, some of the "logic" on display here would make you support allowing airplane passangers to carry guns - 9-11 could have been prevented!

Umm...what's your point? You said it, not me...The Twin Towers and surrounding buildings, 3000 lives there, a couple of wars with tens of thousands dead and maimed there, almost a TRILLION DOLLARS, yes trillion, not hyperbole. They've even proved that an errant bullet through a window or fuselage skin would NOT cause explosive decompression, just a slow leak.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-18-2007, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Popeye http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?p=1553289#post1553289)
...

too many failings in too many ways , listen to the message


the guy who did the 'maggie and jiggs' comics , always left out the pupils when he drew the eyeballs

i think he coulda used a coffee or something


And you, my rock dwelling friend, have been getting weirder and weirder of late.

I agree. I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing with me or making wild unsubstantiated claims (as is so often the case), but many of his posts are, well, seemingly irrelevant. So...is he disturbed? If so, what do we do? This is not a rhetorical question, based on your posts. Not trying to be snitty here, it's just seems a relevant question. Then again, weird is not the same thing as threatening.

geeman
04-18-2007, 01:52 PM
I have no problem with a waiting period.I have no problem with digging into my background (tho most would find it boring).What they would find is old background checks,several in fact from the FBI and different agencies.
I've always been a strong "law and Order" man.
Before I moved to Tenn,my best friends were cops.As I had a working relationship with these guys, they knew me to be sensible,and trusted me completely. More then one time I assisted law enforcement in dangerous situations, to the point I'd have my weapon out right along beside them,backing them up. And they were glad I was there.
The cops knew what I did for a living and knew there were people who took exception to what I did in my work.They knew I had threats on my life from time to time and would double check as friends when they saw me to MAKE SURE I WAS ARMED.
I had my concealment permit had all the required training PLUS EXPERIENCE, and was totally within the law.
Having said that,I havent felt the need to carry a weapon in over 20 years, not since I got out of that line of work.
Until recently.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 01:54 PM
bob oh bob that mind melding bob

TomF
04-18-2007, 01:55 PM
Dunno, Popeye's charm has rested on the alternation of incisiveness and absurdity.

I disagree with the whacks he's taken at Ian, but then he prolly thinks I'm a religious loony. Keeps the place lively.

Popeye
04-18-2007, 01:58 PM
agree, i shouldna put ian on the spot , just rubbed me the wrong way , but i pulled my horns in
he's an american and isn't expected to know all the canadian persnickerty nuances

(i didn't know you were religious , tomf)

geeman
04-18-2007, 01:59 PM
"Without changing our patterns of thought, we will not be able to solve the problems that we created with our current patterns of thought."

~ Albert Einstein

Keith Wilson
04-18-2007, 01:59 PM
You are a religious loony, Tom, but at least you're the right sort of religious loony. ;) :D Popeye's alright - makes me laugh. Sanity's overrated. http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon14.gif

TomF
04-18-2007, 02:26 PM
A religious loony having a near death experience.

I made the godforsaken mistake of suggesting on another forum, thickly populated by US police and military guys, that your 2nd Amendment doesn't provide a check-and-balance preserving democracy from a rogue government anymore. That instead, it confers a specific kind of property right.

Loony, yep. That's me.

Keith Wilson
04-18-2007, 02:31 PM
Got 'em excited, eh? You mean the technological gap between military equipment and what folks have at home isn't greater than it was in the 1780s? I'll be damned! :D

TomF
04-18-2007, 02:42 PM
That pretty much nails it, Keith.

As a bunch of these guys are in fact service personnel, they know the disparity much better than I do. The only way I could envision any citizen militia defying, well, what's deployed in Iraq is by adopting insurgent tactics. For that you don't need Glocks, Yugo-Mausers, shotguns and snub nosed revolvers. You need IEDs and cellphones. I doubt that either fall under current interpretations of the 2nd Amendment.

Ah well. It's an interesting near-death-experience.:D

BrianW
04-18-2007, 02:51 PM
If the 2nd Amendment were allowed to die due to advances in technology, then the laws which restrict the spread of said technology should be considered illegal as per the 2nd Amendment. ;)

Sam F
04-18-2007, 03:29 PM
Please explain. I rather think that the elimination of firearms under the Tokugawa shogunate was a complete sucess, and has continued to this day.

I agree that it was a complete success and eventually that success lead to a complete failure... It was a failure because Japan, while it may be an island, it is not a world.



It's the problem of getting the genie back in the bottle.
It seems the only way to get rid of guns is to get rid of them ALL - government included, or no one will feel (or be) safe. Ultimately that too was a failure.[/

The operative word here is “ALL”. What the Japanese succeeded at was the removal of "ALL" the guns (with the exception of a few leftovers in arsenals and a few coast defense cannon).
The reasons why are unique to Japan and unique to the moment of history when this decision was made. Only a rigidly classed society with the ruling class whose raison d e’tra was threatened by the existence of guns would ever do what Japan did.
Guns leveled the playing field and made any peasant the equal of the most highly trained samurai. This was an intolerable situation for the upper classes. It was just an intolerable for the European knights, but they had no choice but to adapt to firearms. The Japanese, under very different governmental conditions chose to, and were able to, suppress firearms.
Only by the greatest freak of history could those conditions ever be replicated anywhere again.
For an excellent treatment of this episode read (if it's available over your way) Giving Up the Gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879 by Noel Perrin.
Mr. Perrin is definitely on your side of this issue. Unfortunately, the history that he recounts so well works against his idealistic gun-banning view.
True, Japan is an example of a society did in fact give up guns - but as noted earlier, that was ultimately a failed policy. One that, had it gone on much longer, would have had disastrous consequences for Japan.


Since getting this particular genie back in his bottle is impossible... that leaves us with the social engineers who trust the government to always do the right thing and the realists who don't.

Considering 20th Century history, it's a mystery to me why Europeans tend to trust their governments so much - but there's a short tradition there of political freedom and long one of following orders.
The English, of course, are different and have a long history of political freedoms and thus trust, while at the same time the average citizen didn’t have much use for firearms and thus there was little domestic “gun culture”. However, the things I read about the English justice system’s efficiency (or lack thereof) combined with the practical illegality of self-defense would lead me to believe that some day that may well change.
In anything short of a police state, the problem is, and always will be, that the criminal is on the spot and the police are often miles and hours away. This leaves the citizen to fend for himself in any crisis.

Given the subject matter being discussed it may be of some interest that a year or so ago a group based at James Madison University (some 100 miles North of VA Tech) agitated to have the gun-free zone status of State Colleges revoked. The rationale, considering what just happened, is starting to look a bit more sensible.

stevebaby
04-18-2007, 03:32 PM
Iraq was one of the most heavily armed societies in the world...not in terms of its military, but in terms of personal weapons. Like the USA, Iraq (and Afghanistan) has a very strong gun culture.
Why were those personal weapons ineffective in allowing a tyrant to rule their country?
Got any actual evidence of the number of people killed by Saddam Hussein?
If he killed so many people and there is evidence of this...why was he only tried for murdering 148 people?

Kaa
04-18-2007, 03:36 PM
The only way I could envision any citizen militia defying, well, what's deployed in Iraq is by adopting insurgent tactics. For that you don't need Glocks, Yugo-Mausers, shotguns and snub nosed revolvers. You need IEDs and cellphones. I doubt that either fall under current interpretations of the 2nd Amendment.

Well, the point of an armed citizen militia in our times is not really in trying to defeat an army on a battlefield. That's kinda stupid :-) The point is more in upping the stakes.

Consider an uprising of unarmed populace in, say, a town. What do you need to put it down? Some water cannons, some rubber bullets, tear gas, etc. Nothing too serious, just your regular police action. Impact on the ability of the government to govern? Low to medium.

Now consider the same uprising armed (with Glocks, shotguns, and Saturday night specials). Rubber bullets and tear gas aren't going to cut it any more. To put down this uprising you would need serious firepower -- machine guns, tanks, helicopters. You would need to call in the army. Impact on the ability of the government to govern? Very high.

Kaa

Sam F
04-18-2007, 03:39 PM
Got 'em excited, eh? You mean the technological gap between military equipment and what folks have at home isn't greater than it was in the 1780s?

Yes it's greater, but I think you may be underestimating the gap in the 18th century.
For instance, a country like... oh let's say England... could lead a hit-and-run amphibious assault on your town... spearheaded by specialized canon-firing landing craft... fire volleys of hundreds of muskets... use field artillery for close-in infantry support... bombard the town from a distance with heavy naval cannon... use mortars to drop huge explosive bombs over fortifications... fire rockets at you...
Not too much of that hardware lurking about in your average 18th century basement, eh?
The point has never been an equality of firepower - it's about making it as hard as possible for the enemy - or criminal to meet his objectives.
As to how well asymmetric warfare works... ask an insurgent.


I'll be damned! Your choice! ;)

stevebaby
04-18-2007, 04:53 PM
That's all that was needed

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030404-1.html

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?storyid=2063

http://www.gbn.com/ArticleDisplayServlet.srv?aid=2400&msp=1242

http://www.iraqfoundation.org/news/2003/ajan/27_saddam.html
Got any credible evidence?

ishmael
04-18-2007, 06:06 PM
As to the ability of firearms to disrupt matters, even if they can't bring down the formal military, look no further than the sniper in DC five years ago. Partially because of the media and its hand wringing, two men with a rifle put a huge crimp in the DC area for a couple weeks. Imagine, ala Iraq, hundreds of men sniping, and also using whatever other means like IEDs are at their disposal.

Unless you want a Huxley nightmare, where the utopianists attempt to control everything, I think it's better to live with our violence. Attempts to stop the pump, which are going to be met with huge resistence, are probably good. I get shot down by the likes of Pat, but "Leave it to Beaver" was a better thing to pump into the mass mind that has been "The Sopranos."

BrianW
04-18-2007, 06:08 PM
Got any credible evidence?

Yeah few3... you know, like maybe a thread from the WBF. :)

geeman
04-18-2007, 06:25 PM
You will NEVER get ALL Americans to give up their guns.They will except a certain amount of paperwork,but ALL Americans will NEVER agree to , nor will they EVER turn in ALL their weapons.
My kids grew up with guns in the house (all unloaded except my personal weapon) which was with me at all times.But not one of my kids showed the least amount of interest in firearms.So I dont see that kids always copy their parents. At least it didnt happen in my house.As far as I know, none of the kids have guns in their house today.
At the same time I didnt go out of my way to try to interest them ,either they were interested or they were not, They chose to ignore them.
My kids were not exposed to assault weapons or the mindset that sometimes goes with them either.That wasnt my house.They were used to seeing me armed on a daily basis.They just didnt care.
I think they viewed guns in my house as tools I used at work,and that was all.
Now days because we live in a rural area,and being closer to town cant happen because of housing costs closer in,I do have loaded guns in the house.
Response time for a call for assistance is at LEAST 30 minutes.That is assuming that the locals will respond at all.Considering my last 2 calls to report an indecent exposer case went unanswered ,I will keep my guns loaded and ready in case I need them.We are out in the country, the mountains of Tenn.You must assume here that you will have to take care of yourself in an emergency ,its as simple as that.

Sam F
04-18-2007, 06:35 PM
You will NEVER get ALL Americans to give up their guns.They will except a certain amount of paperwork,but ALL Americans will NEVER agree to , nor will they EVER turn in ALL their weapons.

I wouldn't count on that. If the anti-gun crowd get enough votes to push it through guns can be criminalized. After that its only a matter of time. In the case of Japan, it too took years to disarm the country, but it was done in the end.


Response time for a call for assistance is at LEAST 30 minutes.That is assuming that the locals will respond at all.Considering my last 2 calls to report an indecent exposer case went unanswered ,...

That sounds about right except out here the response times are closer to one hour.
One of my former co-workers had a fight and stabbing take place in his front yard. He didn't know any of them - so I guess he's just lucky. 30 minutes after the ambulance left and roughly 1 hour after the incident two cops showed up with guns drawn.
Not very effective, eh?



...You must assume here that you will have to take care of yourself in an emergency ,its as simple as that.

Even if the cops are a block away... a few minutes may not be fast enough.

Nicholas Carey
04-18-2007, 06:45 PM
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/04/contemptible_ghoul_2.php
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/17/the-inevitable-attack-on-science/

We knew this was coming -- according to Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ham), the VA Tech shootings are the fault of teaching evolution in the schools :rolleyes:
We live in an era when public high schools and colleges have all but banned God from science classes. In these classrooms, students are taught that the whole universe, including plants and animals--and humans--arose by natural processes.

Naturalism (in essence, atheism) has become the religion of the day and has become the foundation of the education system (and Western culture as a whole). The more such a philosophy permeates the culture, the more we would expect to see a sense of purposelessness and hopelessness that pervades people's thinking. In fact, the more a culture allows the killing of the unborn, the more we will see people treating life in general as "cheap."

I'm not at all saying that the person who committed these murders at Virginia Tech was driven by a belief in millions of years or evolution. I don't know why this person did what he did, except the obvious: that it was a result of sin. However, when we see such death and violence, it is a reminder to us that without God's Word (and the literal history in Genesis 1-11), people will not understand why such things happen.

geeman
04-18-2007, 06:49 PM
Considering the shooter was Asian, the possiblilty of him NOT being a student of the Bible anyway,I dont see a connection.
I find it offensive for the Bible thumpers to use such a tragedy to further their cause.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-19-2007, 04:57 AM
I'd just like to pick up on comments by Rick Starr, Presuming Ed and Sam F, all of which I agree with.

Comparing modern Britain and Tokugawa Japan with the modern USA is of very limited value.

As Rick says, in Britain, the separation of policing from the State is a "consititutional" issue - we have considered it a fundamental principle of the way in which our nation works for a very long time, and people like me get very twitchy if we sense that it is under threat.

By way of example, we have no national equivalent to your FBI.

Gary W mentioned the Ipswich murders before Christmas last year. It happened that a Government proposal to amalgamate several county police forces into larger units had been dropped, following opposition from the Police themselves, a few months earlier. Suffolk has one of the lowest crime rates and one of the smallest police forces in Britain, and there was an expectation that they would fail to solve these serial killings, which would allow the Government to revive its draft legislation.

What actually happened was that very many police forces seconded staff to Suffolk, and an arrest was made very quickly, after which the killings stopped (the suspect will be going on trial shortly). I know, from chatting to an Assistant Chief Constable very soon after, that the extent of voluntary collaboration between forces (which is formally provided for, but is a matter of voluntray agreement between Chief Constables) was indeed partly a matter of giving the Government no excuse to revive the legislation.

The upshot is that, as Rick says, "trust in the Police" is at a high level and is entirely unrelated to "trust in the Government"(which, right now, is at a rather lower level...)

What could an Englishman do with a gun, if he had one? We are a small and crowded island. There are just three things to do with a gun here:

1. Shoot birds, or indeed rabbits, with a shotgun. Still perfectly legal.

2. Stalk deer, with a rifle. Stll perfectly legal (but you'd better be wealthy!)

3. Shoot at targets. No longer legal with handguns.

As Presuming Ed says, there are really no lessons to be drawn here. I did make the nasty point that the psychology of the suicide bomber is probably similar to the psychology of the "spree shooter", and I stick with it - I don't think politics or religion comes into either case, much, other than by way of pretext or excuse for a course of action already decided on.

And as Sam F says, the circumstances of Tokugawa Japan were unique, although I would add the well known point that Japan still enjoys a remarkably low crime rate, and an exceptionally low firearms murder rate.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-19-2007, 05:02 AM
The Scots are slightly more imaginative - I knew one who was out for a day's informal rough shooting with a shotgun.

Normally you'd think the salmon would be safe....

LeeG
04-19-2007, 06:46 AM
original sin,,I think that was the problem. Other than that it's possible to analyze events on the other side of the planet 24hrs a day so it's kinda important to keep your filters clean.

peb
04-19-2007, 07:27 AM
Well, the point of an armed citizen militia in our times is not really in trying to defeat an army on a battlefield. That's kinda stupid :-) The point is more in upping the stakes.

Consider an uprising of unarmed populace in, say, a town. What do you need to put it down? Some water cannons, some rubber bullets, tear gas, etc. Nothing too serious, just your regular police action. Impact on the ability of the government to govern? Low to medium.

Now consider the same uprising armed (with Glocks, shotguns, and Saturday night specials). Rubber bullets and tear gas aren't going to cut it any more. To put down this uprising you would need serious firepower -- machine guns, tanks, helicopters. You would need to call in the army. Impact on the ability of the government to govern? Very high.

Kaa
A very good point. The second admendment is only there to guard against tyranny. And it is still very important in that regard. Why do we think that we are beyond tyranny? And I am not talking about an over reaching federal government. I am talking about despots taking power.

We may lightly discard it because of our emlightened and democratic government. But our grandkids could have to pay for it.

ishmael
04-19-2007, 07:45 AM
Hm. It's looking more and more that this kid belonged in a mental hospital, and people sensed it, and he slipped through the very wide cracks in our mental health system.

geeman
04-19-2007, 07:47 AM
The kid hated life, and people.He should have been in a cage.All those warning signs ignored

Popeye
04-19-2007, 07:57 AM
on the surface , it sounds like he was left out of the circle by his , somewhat ostentatious and affluent classmates

geeman
04-19-2007, 08:00 AM
There are more people that feel left out then we ever hear about.But they dont solve their problem by going out and killing people.
He should have been in a cage.
I tended to be a loner when I was young too.I know how it feels to not be in the popular group or not be acknowledged by your peers in school.I know how that feels.But it never occured to me to kill those folks.

Popeye
04-19-2007, 08:02 AM
not excusing his actions , he was disturbed

not supporting snooty kids neither

George.
04-19-2007, 08:05 AM
The second admendment is only there to guard against tyranny. And it is still very important in that regard.

Right. A bunch of rednecks with guns are going to "fight" the most powerful military in the world, should its leadership turn to tyranny. :D

Tom Hunter
04-19-2007, 08:06 AM
From recent news reports it seems that he lied on his application to buy the guns. Specifically he said he had never been committed to a mental hospital against his will, but in fact he had. That is grounds for refusing him guns in Virginia.

Unfortunately though the system does checks for criminal convictions very quickly the mental health information is not as centralized so the background check did not catch his lie.

So one action that we could take to prevent this kind of thing is centralize information about people who have been committed as a threat to themselves or others. (In the US "threat to themselves or others" is a specific legal term.)

geeman
04-19-2007, 08:16 AM
Thats a very important point Tom.
The system needs tweaking ,You cannot buy a gun if your classed as a threat,but he still got thru the system.
As far as George's comment,I dont consider myself a redneck.I dont hang out with such people,I agree with few of their ways of life,tho I do live "amongst em".
George's comment assuming all gun owners are rednecks is undeserved , a stereotype that is perpetuated over and over by the IGNORANT..
Once again George steps up to the plate to supply such IGNORANCE.

ishmael
04-19-2007, 08:18 AM
As with all medical records, mental health records are private. If a person doesn't volunteer the information you need a subpoena.

George.
04-19-2007, 08:22 AM
No, geeman. What I am assuming is that the sort of persons who believes that he and others, armed with pistols and shotguns, will be able to resist the imposition of a dictatorship by one of the most militaristic and absolutist governments in the world, is not only delusional, but tends to be described as a "redneck" by his fellow countrymen.

geeman
04-19-2007, 08:28 AM
George,its not about the idea that it could ACTUALLY be DONE.The idea is that we, as a people have the right to TRY.

Popeye
04-19-2007, 08:30 AM
in the midst of mental health issues and failed papers and no study group and attempting english lit in a foreign land

wondering, did anyone ever offer the guy a kind word ?