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Kaa
04-16-2007, 02:22 PM
Interesting reading...

http://www.bioethics.net/journal/j_articles.php?aid=1140

(Warning: not for the sqeamish)

Kaa

PatCox
04-16-2007, 02:26 PM
Supermax is torture too. But 'murricans love torture. They love to see kindergartners handcuffed, they love the smell of leather jackboots and the sight of spattered blood, as long as its not their blood.

S.V. Airlie
04-16-2007, 02:36 PM
I was at Gitmo.. they told me I couldn't have a boat muchless a wooden one. I nearly died..offered them anything and everything.. Pure torture.. I hope never to have to go through that again.

TomF
04-16-2007, 03:05 PM
Dunno what can be said that hasn't been already.

Those of us who think this is barbaric, still do.

Those who will disagree, or say it's not "torture," or it is "torture" but is justified somehow ... will still say the same.

Makes me want to vomit.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-16-2007, 03:38 PM
Yep, there has been a lot said about this, here, and all over the world. The majority of americans don't care, or at least care enough to stop it. That's what happens when a country enters moral bankruptcy.

glenallen
04-16-2007, 03:51 PM
I had hopes that the Dems would have curtailed some of GW's lawlessness by now.
Just dreaming, I guess.
Congress has proven to be absolutely gutless.
Whatever happened to "balance of power"?

Kaa
04-17-2007, 10:20 AM
Well, but now we know the proper terminology. For example,


'The worst thing in the world,' said O'Brien, 'varies from individual to individual. It may be burial alive, or death by fire, or by drowning, or by impalement, or fifty other deaths. There are cases where it is some quite trivial thing, not even fatal.'

...

'By itself,' he said, 'pain is not always enough. There are occasions when a human being will stand out against pain, even to the point of death. But for everyone there is something unendurable -- something that cannot be contemplated. Courage and cowardice are not involved. If you are falling from a height it is not cowardly to clutch at a rope. If you have come up from deep water it is not cowardly to fill your lungs with air. It is merely an instinct which cannot be destroyed. It is the same with the rats. For you, they are unendurable. They are a form of pressure that you cannot withstand, even if you wished to. You will do what is required of you.

...

'I have pressed the first lever,' said O'Brien. 'You understand the construction of this cage. The mask will fit over your head, leaving no exit. When I press this other lever, the door of the cage will slide up. These starving brutes will shoot out of it like bullets. Have you ever seen a rat leap through the air? They will leap on to your face and bore straight into it. Sometimes they attack the eyes first. Sometimes they burrow through the cheeks and devour the tongue.'

The cage was nearer; it was closing in. Winston heard a succession of shrill cries which appeared to be occurring in the air above his head. But he fought furiously against his panic. To think, to think, even with a split second left -- to think was the only hope. Suddenly the foul musty odour of the brutes struck his nostrils. There was a violent convulsion of nausea inside him, and he almost lost consciousness. Everything had gone black. For an instant he was insane, a screaming animal. Yet he came out of the blackness clutching an idea. There was one and only one way to save himself. He must interpose another human being, the body of another human being, between himself and the rats.

The circle of the mask was large enough now to shut out the vision of anything else. The wire door was a couple of hand-spans from his face. The rats knew what was coming now. One of them was leaping up and down, the other, an old scaly grandfather of the sewers, stood up, with his pink hands against the bars, and fiercely sniffed the air. Winston could see the whiskers and the yellow teeth. Again the black panic took hold of him. He was blind, helpless, mindless.

'It was a common punishment in Imperial China,' said O'Brien as didactically as ever.

The mask was closing on his face. The wire brushed his cheek. And then -- no, it was not relief, only hope, a tiny fragment of hope. Too late, perhaps too late. But he had suddenly understood that in the whole world there was just one person to whom he could transfer his punishment -- one body that he could thrust between himself and the rats. And he was shouting frantically, over and over.

'Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia! I don't care what you do to her. Tear her face off, strip her to the bones. Not me! Julia! Not me!' this would be called "an incident deemed properly authorized to “exploit individual phobias.”"

Kaa

Gonzalo
04-17-2007, 01:46 PM
I had hopes that the Dems would have curtailed some of GW's lawlessness by now. Congress has relatively little power over the executive branch unless there are veto-proof majorities, which there aren't in this Congress. This is especially true with a president who issues signing statements for almost all restraining legislation explaining why he doesn't need to obey the law.

The only real power the Democrats in Congress have is the power of investigation. They haven't gone as far with that as I'd hoped, but I never expected them to have much power to change the course of this administration, especially so since their majorities are so slim.

Majorities are too small for impeachment and conviction, but if it were possible we'd have President Cheney. Now that's real impeachment insurance.

LeeG
04-17-2007, 05:15 PM
it's worth reading James Yees book on Guantanamo. The interrogation techniques aren't entirely by design. The cultivation of fear and deception in the civilian branch allows for traditional systems of checks and balances in the military to be weakened as subordinate commanders like Miller go the extra mile for the executive branch.

For God and Country

http://www.amazon.com/God-Country-Faith-Patriotism-Under/dp/B000MKYKTK/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4408784-6878366?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176848008&sr=8-1

A searing indictment of justice gone awry and unchecked, systemic ignorance, Yee's story is sure to stimulate its share of discussion on a volatile subject at a crucial time.

jack grebe
04-17-2007, 05:24 PM
Congress has relatively little power over the executive branch unless there are veto-proof majorities, which there aren't in this Congress. This is especially true with a president who issues signing statements for almost all restraining legislation explaining why he doesn't need to obey the law.

The only real power the Democrats in Congress have is the power of investigation. They haven't gone as far with that as I'd hoped, but I never expected them to have much power to change the course of this administration, especially so since their majorities are so slim.

Majorities are too small for impeachment and conviction, but if it were possible we'd have President Cheney. Now that's real impeachment insurance.
Wow......no kidding, I have been saying that since the Dems. claimed to have taken "power"

Controling congress don't mean shyte

WX
04-20-2007, 12:21 AM
Talking of torture....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6544149.stm

George.
04-20-2007, 06:00 AM
In 2005, Egypt's prime minister acknowledged that since 2001 the USA had transferred some 60-70 detainees to Egypt as part of the "war on terror".

...

The report details the case of Abu Omar, an Egyptian resident in Italy who was allegedly kidnapped by CIA agents in Italy in 2003 and handed over to the Egyptian authorities.

Abu Omar was held without charge in Egyptian jails for nearly four years and in testimony given to an Italian prosecutor he has alleged that he was whipped, subjected to electric shocks and raped.

He was never successfully charged and was released in February 2007.

AI also highlights the case of Mamdouh Habib, an Australian national of Egyptian descent.

He alleges that he was detained and tortured in Pakistan in 2001, handed over to US officials and then flown on to Egypt.

There he was tortured, including in a "water cell" in which he had to stand on tiptoe for hours in order not to drown.

Under torture, Mr Habib says, he confessed to training the 11 September 2001 hijackers in martial arts.

He was later taken to Guantanamo Bay, from which he was finally released in January 2005. He was never charged.



It appears that innocent Australians and Italians have more to fear from Bush than from bin Laden.

Ian McColgin
04-20-2007, 06:41 AM
Another superb essay on the modern history of US torture was delivered March 17, 2007 at the Psychoanalytic Institute of Northern California (PINC) conference by Stephen Soldz:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/15/527/

It is more than a little alarming that any professionally trained psychologists are so stunningly devoid of either moral values or scientific integrity.

There are no excuses for the crimes our nation is committing.

carioca1232001
04-20-2007, 06:42 AM
It appears that innocent Australians and Italians have more to fear from Bush than from bin Laden.

It has happened to innocent Canadians too, in a recent much publicised incident involving no less than Canada´s RCMP.

The innocented man´s wife, a Canadian-born lady mathematician who fought to the bitter end untill he was released from custody, has filed a suit for millions of dollars in damages.

In order to qualify for detention and torturous interrogation, it takes little more than to have an Arabic/Persian/Muslim first name or surname, or affiliation with persons with such names

Robmill0605
04-20-2007, 09:55 AM
Send Me to GITMO!

By Janet Ellen Levy (http://www.americanthinker.com/janet_ellen_levy/)


Whenever I hear of rich people like Martha Stewart, Dennis Kozlowski or Leona Helmsley being convicted and sent to prison, I find myself wondering how these jet-setting sybarites withstand incarceration. In sympathetic identification, I project myself into their circumstances and embark on a mental sojourn of the accommodations and appointments found within the correctional facility.

My quest for the perfect incarceration location was satisfied recently on a visit to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which truly rates an entry in the Michelin Guide to Correctional Facilities. I've informed my lawyer, family, close friends and associates that if I'm ever convicted, send me to GITMO!


"Why GITMO," you ask?


The location is ideal, the climate sublime, food selection vast, the accommodations well ventilated, recreational opportunities abound and cultural sensitivity is king. Besides, I'd fit right in with the GITMO inhabitants. I'm a middle class college graduate, educated at a Western university. I'm not an explosives expert, but I did set off some illegal fireworks on the 4th of July once. All right, so I'm not a terrorist trainer, recruiter, aspiring martyr or financier, but my stint raising three boys has to count for something!


Yes, GITMO is definitely the choice for me. But I know my rights and have a few simple requests.


Let's start with my religious needs. I won't be needing the Koran that's given to other inmates with a gloved hand to hang on the wall with a surgical mask. You can handle my Bible, the Old Testament, but you have to promise to kiss it if you accidentally drop it. Instead of an arrow on my bunk pointing toward Mecca, I'll need a mezuzah on the cell door and will be forwarding directions certified by my rabbi indicating the exact location, angle and required prayer for proper mezuzah installation. I won't require the customary prayer mat, skullcap and prayer beads. I'll be content with a yoga mat and a block to work on my downward-facing dogs and chatarangas. I also won't be needing the five times daily calls to prayer and the cone with the "P" on it that you place on the floor to enforce 20 minutes of quiet respect during each prayer session. On second thought, the "P" cone may come in handy right outside my cell during monthly cycles when I'm hormonal and dangerous.


By the way, if you could tell the Muslims in adjoining cells that when they're loudly praying about what they're going to do to the "Yahoud" that I know that's the Arabic word for "Jew" and I'm grossly offended! I'm sure they'll understand and modify their incantations accordingly. Oh wait! That's part of the Koran, the holy word of Allah as told to Mohammed; it can't be changed! Well, life is certainly not a bowl full of ball bearings as my late father, PBUH (that's "peace be upon him"), used to say. It just goes to prove that life isn't perfect, even in an idyllic setting like GITMO.


Here's some advice for GITMO soldiers attending to my care. You won't need plastic face shields as I don't plan to toss fecal cocktails in the honored tradition of GITMO detainees. Also, I'm friendly and harmless and won't visit their families upon my release. So, tell the staff that the Velcro® nametags can remain on their uniforms in my presence.


Let's move on to discuss food and dietary needs. I know you provide inmates with six choices per meal. But those meals - regular, vegetarian, vegetarian with fish, soft diet, bland diet and high fiber - won't cut it for me. I'm not going to be pushy and demand kosher food, but certainly you can put together a low-fat spa entrée. I know that you bake fresh bread daily and hope that you can pop a challah in the oven for me on Fridays for my Shabbat observance. No thanks on the baklava for Ramadan but if you requisition a box of matzoh and a jar of gefilte fish for Passover, I'll promise not to report you to the Center for Constitutional Rights for cultural insensitivity.

Let's talk about my recreational activity requirements. Instead of soccer and stints on the treadmill, I'll require an elliptical and a set of weights. The Pashto class won't work for me, but Spanish will. I'm from Los Angeles where Spanish is the unofficial language and will need to keep up my communication skills. You're going to need to add the Classics to your literary collection in anticipation of my arrival. Incidentally, these must be in English, as I don't read Urdu, Pashto, Arabic or Farsi. Sign me up for the gardening project. I've perfected the art of growing exotic herbs and can be a great asset here.


I'm impressed with your 20-bed medical facility, your dental plan and your mental health services. Surely, I'll make good use of the facilities but have a few requests. As part of the twice-yearly dental cleanings, I'd like to schedule a whitening treatment and some Botox injections. I'll definitely require the psychotherapy sessions as I have issues with my mother, my father, my siblings, my husband, my colleagues, my kids, my neighbors, you name it! Don't despair about suicide attempts on my behalf. Unlike the other GITMO residents, my religion prohibits suicide; even homicide, for that matter. I must warn you that hunger strikes do not confer elevated status among my people and it is considered a sin to waste food. Where I come from, instead of psychological evaluations following nine missed meals, a rabbi makes home visits after three missed snacks! Please be advised that I might request an extra nosh now and then. While we're on the subject of hunger strikes, I'm horrified to hear that the average detainee weight gain is 18 pounds! That's worse than the poundage I put on during a recent cruise on the Mexican Riviera!


I must confess that the yearly detainee review process and nine annual Red Cross visits don't work for me. Instead, I'll need an annual meeting with my astrologist to chart my horoscope for the coming year. After all, I hail from Southern California and expect the same cultural sensitivity for our customs that are so generously conferred on the current GITMO inhabitants. As for Red Cross visits, (frankly, I'm surprised it's not the Red Crescent), I'll be meeting with the Mogen David Alom. I know that the Red Cross is charged with mail delivery, detainee-to-family communication and Geneva Convention regulation, but the Mogen David Alom not only gets word to the mispocha, it arranges for a nightly turn down service and chicken soup deliveries when you're ill.


In conclusion, if the occasion arises for an incarceration, I'll certainly look forward to an enjoyable stay at Guantanamo Bay. It certainly has all the amenities I'm looking for in a detention facility. The only downside I can see is that escape route choices are harsh. It's either hightail it through a minefield into the arms of a brutal Communist dictator or hijack a schooner or the GITMO ferry to brave the high seas to Jamaica
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/04/send_me_to_gitmo.html

Enough said for me.

carioca1232001
04-20-2007, 03:52 PM
Ms. Janet Ellen Levy is doing her level best to be funny.

A round of applause for this enlightened lady !

WX
04-20-2007, 11:00 PM
She obviously has thought about the possibility of being outsourced to the Egyptians :D

George.
04-21-2007, 06:37 AM
It is sad to find such Soviet-style propaganda in a site called "American Thinker." The idiots who purvey it and buy it are neither.