jib windows for telltales

[casem]

I'm thinking about putting in a small one for my middle set of telltales on my jib. I can see through the jib okay when it is backed by the sun, but not at all when the sun is on the other side, or in the evening when the sun starts to set. I bought the window material, and am getting ready to start sewing, but it has occurred to me that not many people do this. In fact, I can't think of a single boat I know that does it. So I figured I'd give everyone a chance to talk me out of it. Any opinions?

[Kim Whitmyre]

Arvel Gentry has a chapter on such windows to help with trim in "The Best of SAIL Trim," edited by Charles Mason, published by Adlard Coles Nautical.

[Dan McCosh]

The windows are pretty common on racing sails. Most have them around here.

[Wild Wassa]

Windows in sails are good. Both the crew and helm should look up through windows, to see such things as, what is happening to the leech telltails on the jib and where is its stall point and evaluating jib twist. This can be hard to see for the Skipper and crew without a window. The correct tensionings of the jib and jib sheets, can be difficult to do (precisely), when not well sighted on some racing boats. If the window allows you better vision without having to rock the boat all the better.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid198/p01d01458a72bccab3517dd904c1dea37/f0baf2ec.jpg

If you are intending to go fast, this window cuts-down on the insurance claims (and could be more valuable).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid198/p7478ad94ffb8befe6285efcd88ab002f/f0baf2f8.jpg

... the top window helps you to tune the bits and keeps you moving fast. As crew, I look up continually, looking for the stall point. John Tracy above, training for the coming FF Championships.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/p6ed8285dc6a45a6eac243f2218517c41/f5a60a09.jpg


NS14s have a good window for the Skipper and crew.

[ 01-06-2006, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Boatmik]

This is my OPINION. Feel free to disagree!!!

I think that people get used to using what is available.

Too many tuft windows weaken and distort the sail.

My choice is to have one window in the jib luff - keep it large enough so that the tuft won't snag on the stitching. So the tuft also needs to be kept at a sensible length.

I have the standard three tuft sets at different heights up the sails.

I also have three leach ribbons on the main and one about one third the way down the jib.

It depends on how much crew you have, but if you set the sails right before a race using all the tufts and know where the sails have to go because of marks on the sheets then you don't need to use the tufts in the body of the sail much at all.

The steering tuft in the window can be invaluable as you say, but the most important information comes from the leach tufts.

It allows you to see if the sail is oversheeted.

If the twist is minimised with sheet/vang/lead adjustments WITHOUT upsetting the leach ribbons then you are not too far off.

The leach ribbons don't need a window and are quick to interpret

It is tolerable for the leach ribbons to drop in behind the leach occasionally upwind and maybe 3 or 5% of the time on a reach.

So I don't use the tufts in the body of the sail much at all.

HOWEVER the one time I do use them is if the steering tufts and the leach ribbons are all OK, but I notice that the windward tufts in the body of the sail won't fly. This means the sail is too deep and needs to be flattened. The windward tufts are always visible - so you don't need windows.

Note that most racing boats don't have tuft windows - including a lot of very successful ones.

As far as windows for seeing other boats. In 35 years of racing many types of boats I don't think I have ever seen something through a window that I hadn't noticed by looking around the sails and by keeping a track of where the other boats are in my head. They are never in the place that you need for a particular situation and are so small that the thing you need to see disappears just as you need to see it the most.

Add to that the salty misting that occurs within a few minutes of starting to sail - or the water droplets from spray and I think they are just about useless.

The large ones shown in the NS14 pic are a great improvement, but for accurate information I often find myself looking around the sail anyhow.

Horses for courses, but minimising the number of windows is, I think, a good idea.

Michael Storer

my web page (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm)

[Dan McCosh]

Why does the title of this thread sound like the title of a computer manual?

[casem]

Like "Jib Windows for Dummies" maybe?

Alright I'm doing it. Thanks for the opinions.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Stick and/or sew the window to the sail before cutting the hole in the Dacron. Otherwise it can sometimes be difficult to keep the hole perfectly straight while attaching the vinyl window and you can end up with distorted fabric around the window.

[casem]

I got the kit from sailrite which has the double sided tape and instructs to sew it first. But since you chime in, what are your opinions on whether or not to hem the dacron?

[Todd Bradshaw]

It really doesn't need it cosmetically and since the idea is to make the whole thing as smooth as possible and minimize the transition between two rather dissimilar materials, I doubt I would hem the edges of the hole. Even though the hole's edges aren't hot-cut, there is seldom much if any fraying over time along window edges with modern fabric and seam tape.

[Nick C]

Unless your boat is going to be a top contender in races, forget it. If you are not racing at all, don't even think about it.

I used to race a Hobie Cat. This was a great learning experience. First becauses you raced a lot of boats exactly like yours. Secondly, because the boats were fast, so small changes make a bigger difference in how the boat goes.

I found that all I really did with the tell tales was notice how they were flying after I had my sails set. They didn't really help that much. You should be able to trim your sails by pulling them in just past a luff and be set to go.

There are so many things that make a bigger difference in racing than tell tales:
1) Crew weight
2) New Sails
3) Feeling the optimum angle of attack going to weather for your boat and sails.
4) Boat trim
5) Most important, is thinking the race strategy through, and executing it.
6) The start
7) Boat setup
8) Knowing how to set up your sails, battons, downhaul and outhaul for maximum performance for the particulate course.
9)Setting your stays in optimum position.

And that's the short list.
If you think tell tales will make a difference, you are a beginner or obsessive compulsive! About the best thing tell tales can tell you is if your sails are blown out or improperly set up. If you are a racer then you need to replace your sails once a year to be competative.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I think telltales and knowing how to use them can make a big difference. I'll certainly admit to being somewhat obsessive about sail trim, but I think I worked my way out of the beginner phase about 30 years ago. I've put telltales on the last 200 or so sails that I've built and not just for beginners or compulsive types - some people actually use them to make their boats go better.

There are so many gross generalizations and inaccurate over-simplifications in that post that it would take pages to rebutt them and I'm not going to bother. If Casem wants to use telltales for adjusting his sail trim and if he wants to add a little window or two so that they're easier to see, I certainly don't see anything wrong with it. Yes, there are plenty of important factors and adjustments that can help speed and performance on the race course or even for afternoon cruisers who enjoy getting the most out of their boats. Telltales are just one tool that some folks find helpful. I often trim the sails and then use the jib luff telltales to steer the boat by. I suppose adding them might be a waste of time for somebody who doesn't know how to use them and isn't willing to learn, but I hate sailing a boat without them and would gladly toss out the Windex on top of the mast before ditching my telltales. Like almost any other performance enhancing tool, gizmo, adjustment or technique, a five second loss of concentration on the race course will often offset anything gained by them, so the best "gizmo" to have on most boats is usually a good skipper.

I was a Hobie Cat dealer and agree that Hobie racing is a good learning experience. What struck me the most about it was that it taught a lot of Hobie sailors that there is more to sailing than just beam reaching back and forth trying to fly a hull. In this case though, Casem hasn't mentioned racing at all and obviously is interested in using his telltales and making them a bit easier to see. Seems reasonable to me.

[Nick C]

Okay, I'll cut to the quick. Putting tell tale windows in your jib won't have any effect on how long it takes to go from one side of the bay and back.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with putting in tell tales. The point is that people get over focused on solving minor problems and not addressing things that will improve their boat speed more dramatically.

I wouldn't exactly say you're wasting your time putting in tell tales because you will learn something from the process.

[Todd Bradshaw]

"Okay, I'll cut to the quick. Putting tell tale windows in your jib won't have any effect on how long it takes to go from one side of the bay and back"

That well may be true for you, but for someone who knows how to use them it is just another inaccurate blowhard statement.