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View Full Version : We missed surrender day!



PatCox
04-09-2007, 11:07 PM
April 9th was the day Lee saved the Union by stopping his effort to overthrow the lawful government by force of arms.

Is it true that southern states traditionally find some pretext to fly the flag at half-staff this day, saying its because of the death of some postmaster or something, but really, its in mourning for the death of the dream, the dream of slavery now, slavery forever?

geeman
04-09-2007, 11:46 PM
Not even going there,
You do enjoy pushing the "slavery" issue dont you?
Not rising to the bait on this one.

Art Read
04-09-2007, 11:51 PM
"Is it true that southern states traditionally find some pretext to fly the flag at half-staff this day, saying its because of the death of some postmaster or something, but really, its in mourning for the death of the dream, the dream of slavery now, slavery forever?"

Twisting the knife, Pat? Personally, I have no problem with our fellow countrymen marking the memory of a valiant struggle and lost, brave, young men. Implying that the motives that played a part in creating the conflict 140 odd years ago invests the sentiment of the memory of a pivitol turning point in ALL of our histories seems a bit churlish to me, and yes, even condescending. We should ALL mark this day...

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-10-2007, 12:32 AM
Sure wish I could find an image online to post of Yosemite Sam in that confederate uniform from Southern Fried Rabbit. "Civil Wa...er, War between the States." Sorry, was raised on Bugs Bunny, it's my Rosetta Stone on the world.

I worked in TN for a few years, it was nice to experience the south and dispel a lot of stereotypes. But not the diet, that's all true.:D

(I've just been corrected that the "War between the States" interjection was from a Rocky and Bullwinkle episode, not Bugs Bunny. What can I say, R&B also were critical influences on my formative years.)

S.V. Airlie
04-10-2007, 04:13 AM
I thought the south was still fighting.
What surrender day?

Phillip Allen
04-10-2007, 06:21 AM
overthrow?

Mrleft8
04-10-2007, 08:28 AM
My in-laws call it either"The war of northern aggression", or "The great conflagration", and most of them agree that the south won.... I just smile and nod....

geeman
04-10-2007, 09:06 AM
If truth be told,most of the young around here,the ones that drive the ole beat up pickup trucks flying HUGE Confederate flags,and there are still a few that cruise thru Gatlinburg on weekends,have no idea what really happened.Nor do they want to know,they simply dont care.
I do have some fun when I ask them which state was the last to secede and 1st to rejoin the Union.They dont know,they have no clue.Nor are they interested. They dont care that Tennessee couldnt make up its mind until it was forced to.Nor that even AFTER seceding,the State was torn all thru the war on which side they were on. They only know their Southerners and their "confederates".So they push the "southern confederate" image as hard as they can.

S.V. Airlie
04-10-2007, 09:07 AM
Ignorance is bliss.

geeman
04-10-2007, 09:21 AM
Some here may know that I'm not from Tenn, I just choose to live here now.
I'm a Virginian ,born and raised.What I was taught in school in Virginia and what actually happened were not even close.It was glossed over,due to the schools being "southern schools"
But then again, I went to school in a school system that had schools named Robert E Lee elementary,Jeb Stuart Elementary etc.
The roads I traveled were named Jeb Stuart highway, and so on.
My war education I picked up after I had left school many years later.
I have read many books on the war,as much as I can get my hands on.I still have much to learn.I do want to know all the facts ,why I'm so interested I dont know. But somewhere in the middle lies the truth,and I want to know what that is.

S.V. Airlie
04-10-2007, 09:27 AM
Umm.. didn't the Scopes trial take place in Tennessee?

geeman
04-10-2007, 09:43 AM
It did Jamie.The whole trial was a joke.

Mrleft8
04-10-2007, 10:01 AM
"Some here may know that I'm not from Tenn, I just choose to live here now.
I'm a Virginian ,born and raised."
Ah yes..... Land of William Ruffin. Long believed to be the man who fired the first shot at Ft. Sumter, and who apparently, according to ledgend, wrapped himself in the confederate flag and shot himself in the head on learning of Lee's surrender.....

Bruce Hooke
04-10-2007, 11:43 AM
If truth be told,most of the young around here,the ones that drive the ole beat up pickup trucks flying HUGE Confederate flags,and there are still a few that cruise thru Gatlinburg on weekends,have no idea what really happened.Nor do they want to know,they simply dont care.

In some ways not so dissimilar to the way many people view pirates today. The history of pirates being basically murderous terrorists is largely forgotten in favor of the more romantic image that has somehow taken root.

Please note that I am NOT saying the southern soldiers were in any way similar to pirates, just that both are cases where the the modern image is in some ways divorced from history.

S.V. Airlie
04-10-2007, 11:54 AM
Bruce.. in some cases it was political.. Umm.. Morgan comes to mind.. Was he not put in charge of Bermuda...? by the king no less?

John of Phoenix
04-10-2007, 12:27 PM
Do radio and tv stations still play Dixie instead of the Star Spangled Banner?

Bruce Hooke
04-10-2007, 12:40 PM
Bruce.. in some cases it was political.. Umm.. Morgan comes to mind.. Was he not put in charge of Bermuda...? by the king no less?

Piracy certainly spanned quite a range, from "licensed" privateers who were basically just one more way for countries to engage in war in those days, to completely lawless figures who just took from whomever they found and cared little who they killed. So, all "pirates" should not be put in the same category, but I do have to say that across most of the range, I don't really get the "romance," but then I also do not get the "romance" of war, so I am maybe not the best person to ask about this.

geeman
04-10-2007, 12:57 PM
LOl I've never heard a local TV station play Dixie instead of the Star Spangled Banner! LOL Man!!!!! what stuff you yankees here lol

John of Phoenix
04-10-2007, 01:16 PM
No yankee here. I spent lots of time in AL, TX, LA, GA, NC when I was in the Army.
Only place they never did it was LA where the local radio station played a snappy little Cajun ditty - in French dontcha know. :)

paladin
04-10-2007, 02:12 PM
You damn yankee carpetbaggers never git it right.......and Patcox....slavery is how you define it....I'd like to own a couple of yankees....:D...only problem..ya can't git any work outta 'em.

PatCox
04-10-2007, 04:17 PM
Slavery is $5.10 an hour.

bamamick
04-10-2007, 04:34 PM
Alright John, where exactly did you hear them play 'Dixie' instead of the 'Star Spangled Banner?' When were you in the army in Alabama, in the '50's? It may interest you (and of course, drive many here crazy) to know that the new Alabama state car tags have an American flag waving across it with the words 'In God We Trust' enblazoned across the bottom of the tag. Alabama has supplied more soldiers than any other state, per capita, to the military since we began all of this fighting in the desert, what 15-16 years ago now? Just another example of how ignorant people in Alabama are, I suppose.

And Pat, I call BS on you for your general attitude towards the south. Have you ever been south of New Jersey? Never mind, it's trolling. Trolling of the most despicable kind because you aren't even imaginative in it. You pull the same crap over and over again. You just keep hiding in your own little world. Beware the boogie man down south, cuz.

See you guys later, I have Klan rally to attend.

cs
04-10-2007, 04:53 PM
Pat, I've hesitated to post to this all day because this is an obvous troll, but I do have to just because.

For one, I've lived in the South my whole life (except when other places on active duty) and I've never seen flags flown at half mast on what you call "Surrender Day." In fact I had never really heard any attention at all paid to the day except for the first time from you this morning.

And another thing I've never heard a TV station or a radio station play "Dixie" in lieu of the National Antham.

I think that probably most of us down here in the South have probably moved on. Can you say the same about Don Imus?

And hey, I'm from TN and I choose to live here.

Chad

John of Phoenix
04-10-2007, 05:23 PM
In the 60’s, 70's and early 80's last I was there. Specifically, there was an AM radio station in Enterprise, AL that operated sunrise to sunset that would play it twice a day - sign on and off. It was about the only station we could get on the ADF radio in the helicopter and the first couple of times I heard it seemed kind of strange. The subject came up occasionally at Club and it turned out that one or two of the Dothan TV stations did it too when they signed off at night - they played the poem "High Flight" followed by Dixie. Pretty funny combination really.

My sister lives in NC (hubby was in the klan) and he tells me they did it in NC too. Very proud of it as you might imagine, though it could well be BS knowing him.

Happened occasionally on the radio in TX in the early 70’s. Never could figure out the schedule, maybe an anniversary of some sort.

When did they drop the “Heart of Dixie” line on AL plates? That must be fairly recent.

I was kidding about LA.

bamamick
04-10-2007, 05:56 PM
thing a long time ago. For the past several cycles we have had 'Stars fell on Alabama' as our car tag slogan. This new tag kind of caught me by surprise since I had not even heard that they were doing it and it is normally the result of some sort of contest.

You CAN buy a car tag holder with 'Heart of Dixie' on it and many people have them. When I was a kid we had school off for Jefferson Davis' birthday/R.E.Lee's birthday (it was celebrated on the same day. Don't have a clue when they really are). The kids today have that day off as Martin Luther King, Jr's birthday. When I was a kid Confederate Memorial day was celebrated by many, but it was not a government holiday to the best of my knowledge. I can easily imagine some station owner playing 'Dixie' on some small town station as a sign-off back in the '60's. If they were doing it in the '80's then it was some guy who was trying to prove a point and probably a locally owned station. Where I grew up in Mobile we certainly never heard that.

The other day a buddy of mine went on the cruise ship that leaves from Mobile. He was assigned a dinner seat with a black couple from Detroit. This couple made a remark early in the cruise that they were SO glad to be on the ship and away from Mobile. They had heard all of the stories about the deep south and were afraid that they would get harrassed by the police or heaven forbid, even lynched. My friend, who is a lot more good natured than I am and much more capable of laughing something like this off, told them that he was from Mobile, and that they could rest assured that they would in all likelyhood return to Michigan in one piece.

I can't tell you how hurtful such things are to many of us. After all that's happened. The MAYOR of Mobile (Sam Jones) is black. So are many doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, small business owners, educators, public servants, etc. This is an insult to those people who have worked hard to get where they are, and an insult to all of us who live and work together every day to make this a better place.

So go ahead and laugh, those of you who will. This will never be a utopia, but it is home. I am proud of it, proud to be from Alabama. I wonder how many people here can really say that?

Mickey Lake

High C
04-10-2007, 06:02 PM
...So go ahead and laugh, those of you who will. This will never be a utopia, but it is home. I am proud of it, proud to be from Alabama. I wonder how many people here can really say that?

Mickey Lake

Bravo Mick! And don't let small people get you down. They're not worth it.

Memphis Mike
04-10-2007, 06:22 PM
Don't let it get to ya, guys. I've lived in Tennessee for twenty years and I've never heard of such a day either.

Memphis Mike
04-10-2007, 06:40 PM
Well what do ya know?



SLAVERY in NEW JERSEY

The west bank of the Hudson River was, like New York and Pennsylvania, originally part of the Dutch colony of New Netherland, and it faced the same chronic shortage of free labor as the rest of the region. The English proprietors who established New Jersey colony after the British take-over in 1664 were even more aggressive than the neighbor states in encouraging African slavery as a means to open up the land for agriculture and commerce. They offered 60 acres of land, per slave, to any man who imported slaves in 1664.
Slavery had obtained legal sanction in New Jersey under the proprietary regimes of Berkeley and Carteret. In 1702, when New Jersey became a crown colony, Gov. Edward Cornbury was dispatched from London with instructions to keep the settlers provided with "a constant and sufficient supply of merchantable Negroes at moderate prices." He likewise was ordered to assist slave traders and "to take especial care that payment be duly made."
"These instructions became settled policy, and the slave traffic became one of the prefered branches of New Jersey's commerce. In rejecting a proposed slave tariff in 1744, the Provincial Council declared that nothing would be permitted to interfere with the importation of Negroes. The council observed that slaves had become essential to the colonial economy, since most entrepreneurs could not afford to pay the high wages commanded by free workers."[1] But while slaves were encouraged, free blacks were not. Free blacks were barred by law from owning land in colonial New Jersey.

Slaves were especially numerous around Perth Amboy, which was the colony's main port of entry. "By 1690, most of the inhabitants of the region owned one or more Negroes."[2] A 1745 census showed that 74 percent of the slaves in the colony lived in 5 eastern counties, even though these were not the most populous counties in New Jersey. From 2,581 in 1726, New Jersey's slave population grew to nearly 4,000 in 1738.[3] Slaves accounted for about 12 percent of the colony's population up to the Revolution.
From 1713 (after a violent slave uprising in New York) to 1768, the colony operated a separate court system to deal with slave crimes.[4] Special punishments for slaves remained on the books until 1788. The colony also had laws meant to discourage slave revolts. Slaves were forbidden to carry firearms when not in the company of their masters, and anyone who gave or lent a gun to a slave faced a fine of 20 shillings. Slaves could not assemble on their own or be in the streets at night.[5] Controls were further tightened during times of crisis. During Queen Anne's War, any slave found more than five miles from home without a pass was to be flogged, and the master was required to pay a reward to the person who had reported the infraction.
Slaves guilty of arson were subject to punishments severe even by Northern standards: they were to be put to death in a way that "the aggravation or enormity of their crime shall merit and require." Thus, in 1735, a slave in Bergen County who attempted to set fire to a house was burned at the stake. Six years later, authorities in Hackensack burned at the stake two slaves who had been setting fire to barns.[6]
Yet in spite of these precautions, New Jersey narrowly escaped a violent slave uprising in 1743. Somehow word had spread among slaves in Burlington County that Great Britain had outlawed slavery and they were being held in bondage illegally. At midnight on a certain date the slaves agreed to rise up, slit the throats of their masters and the masters' sons, capture the women (to be ravished later), plunder the farms, and escape to the French and Indians. A slave let word of the plot slip during an argument with a white man, the authorities were alerted, and after an investigation 30 ringleaders were arrested. Because the plot had not actually gone into effect, only one man was hanged; the rest were sentenced to be flogged or had their ears cut off.[7]
EMANCIPATION
As in other Northern states, the movement toward abolition in New Jersey began during the rhetorical stirring of the Revolution. And as in other states, the crisis of the Revolution provided the excuse for not facing the issue.
Gov. Livingston of New Jersey planned to urge his legislature in 1778 to provide gradual abolition, but the assembly persuaded him to withdraw the message because the country was in "too critical a situation to enter on the consideration of it at that time."[8] But unlike many other Northern states, abolition was opposed strongly, often with racist arguments that would later be remembered only when used in the American South. Africans were unfit for freedom by their "deep wrought disposition to indolence" and "want of judgment."[9]
New Jersey's slave population, unlike that of other colonies, actually increased during the Revolution, mainly through migration from other states. But the white population increased at a much faster rate, and wages for laborers became affordable to employers, while the cost of feeding and maintaining and guarding slaves remained high. By 1786, when a ban on slave importation into New Jersey took effect, the institution was dying an economic death. The 1800 census counted 12,422 New Jersey slaves, but the white population had boomed from 1786 to 1800, increasing at a rate six times that of blacks. This is not surprising, in part because in the same year New Jersey banned importing of slaves it also forbid free blacks from entering the state with intent to settle there.
The New Jersey Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery kept up agitation on this issue through the late 1780s, petitioning, distributing literature, and sponsoring lectures. But New Jersey came late and notoriously unwillingly to abolition.
In 1804 the New Jersey Legislature passed "An Act for the Gradual Abolition of Slavery." It provided that females born of slave parents after July 4, 1804, would be free upon reaching 21 years of age, and males upon reaching 25. Like New York's, this law held a hidden subsidy for slaveowners. A provision allowed them to free their slave children, who would then be turned over to the care of the local overseers of the poor (the state's social welfare agency in those days). The bill provided $3 a month for the support of such children. A slaveowner could then agree to have the children "placed" in his household and collect the $3 monthly subsidy on them. The evidence suggests this practice was widespread, and the line item for "abandoned blacks" rose to be 40 percent of the New Jersey budget by 1809. It was a tax on the entire state paid into the pockets of a few to maintain what were still, essentially, slaves.
Furthermore, New Jersey slaveowners had the option to sell their human property into states that still allowed slaveholding, or into long indentures in Pennsylvania, until an 1818 law that forbid "the exportation of slaves or servants of color."
New Jersey, like other northern states, replaced outright slavery with stricter controls of free blacks. Black voters were disenfranchsed by an 1807 state law that limited the franchise to "free, white male" citizens.
In 1830, of the 3,568 Northern blacks who remained slaves, more than two-thirds were in New Jersey. The institution was rapidly declining in the 1830s, but not until 1846 was slavery permanently abolished. At the start of the Civil War, New Jersey citizens owned 18 "apprentices for life" (the federal census listed them as "slaves") -- legal slaves by any name.
"New Jersey's emancipation law carefully protected existing property rights. No one lost a single slave, and the right to the services of young Negroes was fully protected. Moreover, the courts ruled that the right was a 'species of property,' transferable 'from one citizen to another like other personal property.' "[10] Thus "New Jersey retained slaveholding without technically remaining a slave state."[11]
1. Edgar J. McManus, Black Bondage in the North, Syracuse University Press, 1973, p.13.
2. ibid., p.5.
3. Greene & Harrington, American Population Before the Federal Census of 1790, pp.106-11.
4. Aaron Leaming and Jacob Spicer, eds., New Jersey Grants, Concessions, and Constitutions, Somerville, N.J., Honeyman, 1881, pp.356-7. The eastern division of the colony had had special slave courts since 1695.
5. Acts of the General Assembly of the Province of New Jersey, Burlington, N.J., 1776.
6. Henry S. Cooley, A Study of Slavery in New Jersey, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1896, p.40.
7. "American Weekly Mercury" (Philadelphia), Feb. 26, 1733/34; "New England Weekly Journal," April 8, 1734.
8. Cooley, p.23.
9. "New Jersey Journal," Nov. 29, 1780.
10. McManus, p.178.
11. ibid., p.181.

Memphis Mike
04-10-2007, 06:46 PM
The link:


http://www.slavenorth.com/newjersey.htm

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-10-2007, 07:13 PM
http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/flag/flaggifs3/20000119edhan-a.gif

paladin
04-10-2007, 08:22 PM
John Teetsel......My great grandparents on mommies side came from Dothan and I can tell you it was a died in the wool Suthrin' area....:D

Memphis Mike
04-10-2007, 11:38 PM
It's funny how Mr. Weenie New Jersey Lawyer goes silent when confronted with the fact that his own state harbored slaves and condoned the policies of slavery. Possibly, even before the South held slaves.

geeman
04-10-2007, 11:50 PM
I had stated in earlier how northern slavery.And how the north wanted slavery outlawed in the South , BUT DIDNT WANT THOSE FREED SLAVES COMING UP NORTH.