What is now acceptable.

[S.V. Airlie]

It is amazing to me how much we, as a nation, have changed.
In the early sisxties... we had trouble accepting a Catholic running for president. Heck, we had trouble with that in 1928.
In one national convention, we had trouble accepting Eagleton as a running mate because he had some serious mental issues.. corrected.
In the 80's, we frowned upon those who have been divorced.
We have changed our tune...
In the past, divorce was a bell signalling doom.. Not anymore.
We have Rudi now.. We have the past Gov. of MA running who is a mormon.
Boy, have we changed.

[Tar Devil]

You name it... this year it's running for President.

[PatCox]

I'm not sure Kerry's catholicism might not have made a 1% difference in the vote, in some areas.

In my lifetime, a black person and a white person could not be married, it was against the law. Blacks were not permitted in the mormon church, I believe. Black and white couples are now common.

Premarital sex seems to be accepted, the ettiquette books now quibble over whether parents should give an unmarried couple one or two rooms when they visit.

Divorce is also no scandal.

[S.V. Airlie]

Pat..no..no.. I don't think the issue of religion applied to Kerry.. I'm dropping back to 1960..when religion was an issue.. Remember Kennedy's speech in W VA.

and ya kinda made my point.. religion and divorce did not play a major role in Kerry's race... Thank you. In fact, I don't recall it really being brought up and taken seriously.

[Norman Bernstein]

Pat..no..no.. I don't think the issue of religion applied to Kerry.. I'm dropping back to 1960..when religion was an issue.. Remember Kennedy's speech in W VA.

I couldn't disagree that things have changed dramatically.

However, I think there is still a lot of religious and racial rejudice below the surface. We may have eliminated nearly all sorts of institutional discrimination, but there is still plenty of personal discrimination in terms of attitudes. I suspect, for example, that Romney daces the fact that there are many who believe Mormonism to be a 'cult' of sorts.

[S.V. Airlie]

Norman.. I will agree that personal feelings are not really addressed here. I was thinking more of the media making an attempt to make such issues an issue.
I mean, how many here know that your ex gov. is a Mormon? It has really not made a splash in the media.. hence, I would suspect that overall, his religious affiliation is not well know. Why, because the media has not made an issue of it.
Personally, I have no problem with a candidate that has been divorced, seen a shrink, is Catholic, Aethiest, Protestant, Morman.
I want someone who is capable of doing the job.

[Chris Coose]

I like this idea dems have a woman and a black man out front at this time and there is very little undercurrent about their minority status in government.

Money raising is an indicator of their popularity but I hope it begins to take a very distinct second seat to substance.

Glenn Beck is a Mormon too. That ain't saying much.

[S.V. Airlie]

Chris.. I have no complaints about that.. but I also have heard rumors that Obama is not black enough.. For whatever reason, he does no seem to have the black community support one would expect.
An interesting commentary.
I don't care what color one's skin is... If the media wants to make something of it fiune..
Just give me a candidate I can believe in.

[Chris Coose]

he does no seem to have the black community support one would expect.


Oh really.
See the break down of contributions?

[S.V. Airlie]

BARACK OBAMA (D-IL)
Top Industries

The top industries supporting Barack Obama are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $2,464,360
2 Securities & Investment $1,117,132
3 Retired $857,601
4 Real Estate $620,760
5 Education $542,966
6 Business Services $509,266
7 Misc Finance $415,498
8 Health Professionals $363,713
9 TV/Movies/Music $299,233
10 Commercial Banks $282,553
11 Printing & Publishing $186,293
12 Insurance $183,132
13 Non-Profit Institutions $175,720
14 Misc Business $150,991
15 Hospitals/Nursing Homes $146,175
16 Civil Servants/Public Officials $144,069
17 Lobbyists $127,800
18 Computers/Internet $125,333
19 Construction Services $119,910
20 Electric Utilities $102,700

well, this is what I found.. I don't see a breakdown by race...

[geeman]

I'm not interested in a candidates marital status,his/her race, religion,or lack of it,or if he/she had depression at some time in the past.I dont care if he/she smoked a little weed back in the 60's ,or if premarital sex was their pastime.I simply dont care. What I Do care about is what they believe the future of the country should be,what direction we need to go as a country.Thats what I care about.
A black president is just fine with me as long as he can do the job.A woman president is fine by me if SHE can do the job.Except this woman running now, her I dont care for.

[Norman Bernstein]

BARACK OBAMA (D-IL)
Top Industries

The top industries supporting Barack Obama are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $2,464,360
2 Securities & Investment $1,117,132
3 Retired $857,601
4 Real Estate $620,760
5 Education $542,966
6 Business Services $509,266
7 Misc Finance $415,498
8 Health Professionals $363,713
9 TV/Movies/Music $299,233
10 Commercial Banks $282,553
11 Printing & Publishing $186,293
12 Insurance $183,132
13 Non-Profit Institutions $175,720
14 Misc Business $150,991
15 Hospitals/Nursing Homes $146,175
16 Civil Servants/Public Officials $144,069
17 Lobbyists $127,800
18 Computers/Internet $125,333
19 Construction Services $119,910
20 Electric Utilities $102,700

well, this is what I found.. I don't see a breakdown by race...

Where did this list come from?

Surely, it can't really be an 'industry' support list, since the third largest entry is 'retired'.... I suspect it's probably a categorization by work/profession of the contributor.

If so, then I find it interesting that 'retired' is the third largest category.

[S.V. Airlie]

Norman.. I was googling to respond to Chris' comment.. google contribtions...
Neeldess to say, I could not find a breakdown by race... Chris seems to have done so..
So, Chris, since I could not find a breakdown, two requests:
One, can you lead me in the right direction..and
2) If this candidate has the support of the black community, Jackson and Sharpton have been very quiet about coming out in support. I mean,, rainbow coalition etc... I would have expected them both to have come out in support as leading members of the " black " community.

[Chris Coose]

That breakdown does not add up to over 25,000,000 in this first reporting period.

You will find average contributions are 75.00 and under. Suppose that is coming from white Iowans?
Nope.
Most individual contributors are supposed to be middle and upper income blacks. They are just begining to open their wallets with the understanding there will be lots more to come. He is rolling strong.
No other contender has these prospects for resources.
I heard these stats on NPR last week.

[S.V. Airlie]

Chris.. I googled.. I tried to find a breakdown. You post does not answer anything exxcept that contributions av. 75.00.. Now as Norman pointed out.. retired folk are ranked third. Are they blacks or just ytour typical middle class whites on a set income who can't afford to give more?
I really do need a breakdown here. I made a statement that Obama did not appear to have the support of blacks.. You said I was wrong.. Okay.. umm, prove me wrong.
Personally, I like the guy.. Who knows, he may actually beat Hilary for the nomination. I'd like that.
You did say to look.. okay, I did.

[Norman Bernstein]

I really do need a breakdown here. I made a statement that Obama did not appear to have the support of blacks.. You said I was wrong.. Okay.. umm, prove me wrong.

Hmmm... I think it would be far more appropriate for you to prove your contention, Jamie, than for insisting that someone else needs to disprove it. What's the basis of your contention?

It's possible, and even probably, in my view, that this is being over-thought. This early in the campaign cycle, name recognition matters more than anything, and despite near parity in fundraising, Hillary Clinton has been a national figure for 14 years, while Barak Obama has been in the national spotlight for barely one year. Support of any candidate depends on name recognition... people need to know a candidate before they express thier enthusiastic support. Obama's biggest challenge is simply geting known, more than anything else.

Finally, I think the correlation between black candidate and black vote is irrelevant.. and even offensive, to a degree. It's been proven several times over that race affinity is by no means ever assured or guaranteed. If it had any truth to it, Al Sharpton would have gathered a proportional vote in the last primaries... and he didn't. Sure, affinity does count.... but it's certainly no 'lock'.

[S.V. Airlie]

Oh really.
See the break down of contributions? (Chris..)

Nope Norman.. the ball is in the other court. He has written I am wrong. I have asked him why Jaclkson and Sharpton have not come ou in support.. Now that by itself is proof...that something is missing. If he had the support he supposedly has, Jackson would be right there on the podium.

I think, as I suspect you do, Jackson has a great deal to say and his support is boundless.

[Norman Bernstein]

Nope Norman.. the ball is in the other court. He has written I am wrong. I have asked him why Jaclkson and Sharpton have not come ou in support.. Now that by itself is proof...that something is missing. If he had the support he supposedly has, Jackson would be right there on the podium.

That is proof of absolutely NOTHING, Jamie. This is politics. Sharpton's base is centered in NY, and Hillary is especially popular there... it makes sense for him, politically, to support her and not Obama. Jesse Jackson has similar motives. To his credit, Obama has NOT exploited race so far in his candidacy, despite the fact that his political enemies are scouring his every word for evidence that he is. So far, you've said nothing to support your contention.

[S.V. Airlie]

and neither has Chris.. is this a standoff?
And Jackson has more than a local folowing. My comment stand.

[Norman Bernstein]

To support the point I've been trying to make (From the National Black Press):


WASHINGTON (NNPA) – U. S. Senator Barack Obama’s rock star-like following in his Democratic bid for the presidency has now overtaken Sen. Hilary Clinton’s support in the Black community, causing two former Black presidential candidates to skeptically say Obama really could become America’s first Black President – if he overcomes major hurdles.

“I guess anyone has a chance,” says activist Al Sharpton, a Democratic candidate for president in 2004. “But, the poll challenges him more than anything else. I see the poll saying that he was better than he was, but he’s got a long way to go before he talks about winning.”

A Washington Post-ABC News poll shows Clinton at 36 percent and Obama at 24 percent generally consistent since January.

But, in Black support, the poll shows a dramatic shift since January when Clinton led Obama 60 percent to 20 percent. The most recent poll late last month showed Obama with 44 percent to Clinton’s 33 percent. The margins of error were three percentage points.

[Norman Bernstein]

From the Washington Post:



The opening stages of the campaign for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination have produced a noticeable shift in sentiment among African American voters, who little more than a month ago heavily supported Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton but now favor the candidacy of Sen. Barack Obama.

Clinton, of New York, continues to lead Obama and other rivals in the Democratic contest, according to the latest Washington Post-ABC News poll. But her once-sizable margin over the freshman senator from Illinois was sliced in half during the past month largely because of Obama's growing support among black voters.

[S.V. Airlie]

So I googled and didn't see that.. Can you specifically prove it?
Yup.. nice to see it summed up i the meia but where are the facts to support this?
I did not find them Norman... I posted what I found. I tried to find a brerakdown.. okay, no luck. If it there I don't know.
If you have proof, I'll plead ignorance and go to church on Sunday..I'll count the number of " Hail Marys ". and check out the numner of beads.

[Norman Bernstein]

Jamie, the problem might simply be that you're about 4 months behind.

In googling 'Obama Black support', I found several articles dating back to January, questioning Obama's appeal to black voters...

...but the recent stuff, especially the latest polls, are pretty clear; there's been a huge upsurge in black support for Obama.

As one article pointed out, and as I contended, the surge is supported by the idea of 'voter familiarity'.... as Obama gets better known, he attracts more support, not just from blacks, but from everyone.

[S.V. Airlie]

Fine.. I have an old computer.
Time will tell now won't it?

If you have that infoprmation.. post it.. don't allude to it.

[S.V. Airlie]

Here is a sum.. If nothing else, Sharpton is not nec. regional.

harpton and Obama
by HERB BOYD
Special to the AmNews
Originally posted 4/5/2007

Last week, when it was announced that the Rev. Jesse Jackson was throwing his considerable weight behind Sen. Barack Obama’s presidential bid, there were rumors that the Rev. Al Sharpton might be backing Sen. Hillary Clinton.
Reached in New Orleans where he is among several activists and organizations upset that the feds have not forked over the promised funds to rebuild the Gulf Coast, Sharpton said there was no truth to the rumor.
Many pols believe Jackson’s move effectively blocks Sharpton’s support of Obama—and the alleged feud between them is now being played out in cartoons—and consequently limits his options.
“I have many options,” Sharpton began. “I could go with Obama, Ms. Clinton or do nothing. When I talk to many of my colleagues in the movement and ask them should we be endorsing somebody or do what we’ve always done and see where they stand on our agenda items, they say we should make them more accountable.”
Citing an example of an important agenda item, Sharpton said that last year he and his organization, the National Action Network, spent a lot of time in Michigan campaigning against forces seeking to abolish affirmative action. “Obama and Hillary were both in Michigan campaigning for their senatorial races and neither said anything at all about this issue,” Sharpton asserted.
“This isn’t ‘American Idol,’” he continued. “Each candidate has to deal with the issues and if we silently accept them during this election then we lose the capacity to challenge them on any other future election.”
Sharpton explained that it has always been his procedure and that of his organization to weigh each candidate after they had appeared at his House of Justice, something he has done with mayoral, gubernatorial, senatorial and presidential candidates in the past. “Not only do we have this process of hearing a candidate before we endorse them, I had to go through it myself when I ran for president,” he said.
“It’s as though people are sacred cows that can’t be touched nowadays when you ask that they be accountable and deal with certain issues,” Sharpton continued. He then recounted a chapter of political history, citing other candidates who had to face an inquiring electorate.
“When Shirley Chisholm ran for president in 1972, the Black community wanted to know if she was more Black than feminist, and this is something I can vouch for because I ran her youth campaign,” said Sharpton, recalling the late congresswoman from Brooklyn. “At the National Black Assembly in Gary that year, they didn’t even endorse her.”
The minister then noted that the Rev. Jesse Jackson was asked whether he was going to distance himself from Minister Louis Farrakhan during his presidential bid in 1984, and whether he was right about his “Hymietown” remark, or Dr. King’s blood on the sweatshirt he refused to take off for several days.
“They hit me with the same sort of questions, asking me whether I was running to help the Republicans and whether they were giving me money, all kinds of questions,” Sharpton said. “We all had to deal with these questions, so we shouldn’t ask Obama questions?”

and I will wait to see if Jackson really comes out in support of Obama.. To date, just a rumor that the media has latched on to.

[Norman Bernstein]

What that article demonstrates, Jamie, is simply this: black activist leaders have a narrow agenda, and what they seek is support for their agenda.

Presidential candidates can't have a narrow agenda, and they need, for pragmatic reasons, to stay away from agenda issues that can't help them in the primary race, and the especially need to stay away from activists who are volatile, controversial, and possibly perceived by mainstream America as being extremist or fringe.

In other words, Obama wouldn't mind Sharpton's support, or Jackson's support... but he's sure as hell not going to co-opt his effort by wasting time supporting thier narrow agenda items, which might result in getting burned. This clearly pisses off Sharpton and Jackson, who probably feel that Obama is disrespecting them.

I think this is especially applicable to Obama... and it's the reason why he's the only candidate which has gotten my interest. Of all of the candidates, Obama strikes me as the only one who is genuinely a pragmatist and has the ability to effectively be bipartisan.... while at the same time espousing fundamental principles which I mostly agree with.

[S.V. Airlie]

Norman.. I ain't gnna disagree about a narrow agenda.. I am gonna say though they have a good audience.

[PatCox]

Now think of the opposite, what was once acceptable that is now regarded with horror:

smoking
3 martini lunch
wolf-whistles
a pinch on the bottom
corporal punishment

What else?

[S.V. Airlie]

Pat.. wow.. now I gotta think.. This might turn into an interesting thread..
The start is good.. thanks.. I think.. I really do want to feel depressed this afternoon.:eek:

[Keith Wilson]

Now think of the opposite, what was once acceptable that is now regarded with horror:Blatant public racism. I'm reading a biography of Huey Long, inspired by Jacks thread on All the King's Men, and despite being a populist, his speeches were astounding from a modern point of view - "niggers" this, and "damn niggers" that - and that was not at all uncommon for a Southern politician in the '30s, at least for local consumption. Ah, the good old days! At least now folks have to keep it quiet.

[ishmael]

Ever since the Tawana Brawley debacle, where Sharpton knew both she and he were lying, yet kept up the heat for weeks, he's had about as much credibility for me as any other demagogue. Jesse isn't much better. Why people of any stripe continue to see either of them as leaders is beyond me. Both bright men, but I've long thought both were playing the race card for personal advantage rather than out of principle. No one should care who they endorse, but I guess people still do.

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

I suspect, for example, that Romney daces the fact that there are many who believe Mormonism to be a 'cult' of sorts.

Without trying to offend someone...:D , I will say that the Mormon church is the only "mainstream" church in America that I am not allowed to walk into their temple and pray. Catholic, Baptist, Episcopal, Jewish, Lutheran, Buddhist, you name it...I am welcome to walk into any of their churches and worship...

Can't go to the Mormon Temple in SLC or in DC.

I think that says it all.

Kinda like the Scientologists; Any religion that bases how far up the ladder you go on the amount of $$$ you "contribute".... :p


AFA the candidates; Obama is untested, we don't really know what his positions are.
Hillary; we will have had 20 years of Bushes and Clinton, I don't see the country going for 4 or 8 more years and let's face it there are still people in this country who won't vote for someone b/c they are black or female.
I could care less; I just don't like Hillary and I don't see much in Obama.

And the funny thing is I'm leaning towards hoping we get a Dem for prez, something I've never wished for!:D

[Chris Coose]

.. You said I was wrong..

Wrong again.