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dreyer
04-02-2007, 02:30 PM
Hi all,
Does anyone have any experience with cutting a spruce mast for transport?

The mast is about 5 years old and 43 foot long. It would make my life so much easier if I could put a cut in the mast head or foot about 4 or 5 feet from the end so I can transport it easily then glue/scarf it back together? It sounds extreme but as the mast is essentially made up of a number of glued sections its not so un-reasonable. Am I correct?

Is there a specific type of cut I should make?

Thanks.

mmd
04-02-2007, 02:40 PM
I agree with Jim - there is always a better way.

Hell, I had a fully-rigged 63-ft mast air-freighted from NYC to a wee island in the southern Caribbean for about $50 more than had I shipped it conventially. The air freight company took photos and used them for promotional material.

dreyer
04-02-2007, 02:48 PM
The journey (if it happens) would be from california to NZ in about 18 months or so. The boat will be squeezed into a 40 foot container and as mentioned it would be fantastic if I could also put the mast in there but it is about 3 feet too long.

If not then I will have to fit it into a long section of heavy duty pvc pipe and ship it individually.

Just looking at my options at the moment.

Thanks for the advice.

hansp77
04-02-2007, 02:56 PM
for the curious (who here isn't)
got any photo's of your boat?
Is it new?
whats your story?
etc, etc...

no harm in filling in a little time, and bumping the thread.

Oh, and while I am at it, a silly idea, but a 40 foot container, and a 43 foot mast?
what is the longest diagnal you could get in that container?
might it make it?

EDIT-
here are some dimensions of 40 footers.
Length -----
40 feet (12.192m)

Width ----- 8 feet (2.438m)

Height ----- 8.5 feet (2.591m) and 9.5 feet (2.896m)

if only I could remember the maths.:o

Hwyl
04-02-2007, 03:11 PM
40 squared 1600 + 8 squared 64 = 1664

square root 40.7921

or 41.1 if you go with the 9.5

emichaels
04-02-2007, 03:15 PM
41 feet is the diagonal, actually a little less as the HIcube (9.5' outside dim is actually only 8'10" high on the inside. also remember it is 7'8" wide by 39'-5" long ID) Humm interesting problem When the wife gets home I'll ask her. She arranges ocean transport for huge machines. Much bigger than 40'. I'll get back to you. There must be provision for this via ocean transport. Though air is probably gonna be the choice transport.


This is her quick off the cuff answer, more later.

"They do make 45' containers but not all ports and routes use them.

At Goettsch I shipped some overdimensional machines on flat racks (ocean version of a flatbed). We paid extra for over-height and over-width. I never dealt with over-length but I assume they have provisions for that too."

More info: Contact these people at UPS they do oversized shipments also full and partial containers.

http://www.ups-scs.com/contact/survey.html

Eric

riggertroy
04-02-2007, 03:15 PM
Diagonal about is a bit less than 41ft. is the mast deck stepped, or keel stepped? Might be an idea to crop the foot off the mast the minimum you have too.
Have been seen a topmast that had the foot badly rotted have a new foot scarfed on, the shipwright used a "birds eye" splice as he called it. No problems and the vessel has been sailing for the last 2-3 years with no problems.

JimConlin
04-02-2007, 03:19 PM
f<SNIP>

Oh, and while I am at it, a silly idea, but a 40 foot container, and a 43 foot mast?
what is the longest diagnal you could get in that container?
might it make it?

The containers are about 8' x 8' x 40'. The diagonal of that is sqrt(8^2+8^2+40^2) = 41.5'. Also, carving a hole for the mast that went diagonally through the boat might be no bargain, either.

hansp77
04-02-2007, 03:24 PM
Is that really the longest (3D) diagonal?
With the boat in there It probably still wouldn't make it,
but lets say theoretically if the boat wasn't in there,
and you went from (say) the front bottom right corner, to the top back left corner... (in the higher container)
what is it then?

considering the boat would be in there, you would get nothing like the potential length, but you could certainly get a little more than the longest 2D diagonal.
or am I wrong:confused:

EDIT-
Ok, my bad, I see that you have already calculated for 3D. It is certainly time for bed (have done an all-nighter):o .

JimConlin
04-02-2007, 03:35 PM
Longest 2-dimension diagonal is sqrt(8^2 + 40^2)=40.8
Longest 3-dimension diagonal is sqrt(8^2 + 8^2 + 40^2)=41.5

hansp77
04-02-2007, 03:39 PM
it just didn't seem enough.:D

Cheers,
Gnight.

emichaels
04-02-2007, 03:47 PM
FWIW those calculating diagonals, use the ID. The flat diagonal, the only practical way with a sailboat in the way is 40' 1-7/8".

Canoeyawl
04-02-2007, 04:00 PM
Sure, You could just cut it as a scarph joint.
I would do something over 12/1 to eliminate any worries.
It will take time to do it properly and that may not offset another method of shipping.
If you enlisted a professional boatbuilder (spar builder) at each end of the journey to do this work, it is possible.
What part of California?

Some details that I envision are…
The mast will be slightly shorter and rigging issues may arise.
Remember that the scarph joint is long; a 10 inch dia mast will need a ten foot (120”) scarph. A birds-eye scarph can reduce this by half but will add cost.
Cutting it cleanly enough to just re-glue it at the end of the journey.
(I have split masts in a bandsaw fixture, hollowed them and simply glued then back together again with no joining work).
Is the mast hollow? (This could complicate things) And where would be the best place to make the cut?
The joint itself will be fragile at the feather ends and should be reinforced for travel, i.e. attach some plank stock to protect it.
The mast will probably not support itself in a horizontal position and should be packaged accordingly.

Dan McCosh
04-02-2007, 04:00 PM
How about cutting a hole in the bottom of the container, and then disguising the part that sticks out? Maybe put a pair of pants on it.

emichaels
04-02-2007, 04:07 PM
dreyer check your PM's (upper right corner of the screen )

Eric

John B
04-02-2007, 05:07 PM
This is the Rhodes, isn't it.
Just cut the top off nice and square and deal with it when you get it here. I'll put you in touch with Peter Brookes, the boatbuilder who did exactly that to get Natica here in a container from the UK, and he'll help you work out the scarfs for the repair.

In fact. I just rang and he confirmed it.
just do it ,even if it hurts.

dreyer
04-02-2007, 05:19 PM
for the curious (who here isn't)
got any photo's of your boat?
Is it new?
whats your story?
etc, etc...



Hi Hans,
Your right, I should introduce myself properly. Im a young (23) New Zealander and I am currently bosun/2nd officer on board a 200 foot motor yacht that is in san diego for a refit/yard period.

I got my passion for classic yachts & motor yachts after spending 3 years working on a 1954 dutch built (de vries lentsch) 42m motor yacht. She was absolutely fantastic, 2 strokes, direct reversing, telegraph controlled, acres of brass, varnish, traditional machinery, a carvel limousine & riva speedboat as tenders. Basically everything on board was original as built in the 50s.

She was the tender to a 1938 53' William fife cutter named solway maid who races in the mediterranean classic circuit & I was fortunate enough to race as bowman aboard her for two years. All I can say is that she is a masterpiece.

These two boats were more than enough for me to get the wooden/classic boat bug. Hell, I was spoilt rotten to be honest. They were also a great source of education for me as almost all maintanance was done in-house by our crew. Sadly, most professional large yacht crew often wouldnt know maintanance / carpentry / painting if it hit them in the face.

So onto my boat:

She is a philip rhodes designed coast rhodes 33 as built by south coast boat works in Newport beach during the 50s.

I found THERAPY at the shipyard we are in and she was about to be scrapped. Something that I obviously could not allow to happen so I snapped her up for next to nothing & have been looked after by the yard exceptionally by way of free storage and haul out.

She has badly rotten frames at mid ships and some very poorly replaced garboard planks. I am going to steam bend about 30 new frames in, Replace the centre floors, garboard planks and another plank or two here and there.

Time is obviously an issue as once we finish our refit its back to our cruising schedule & I will have little time to spend on Therapy. I basically want to get her hull sound, get her back in the water and then I can take a few months holiday later in the year and focus on a new deck and re-installing all the cabinetry.

I would love to have her at newport for a few years and get some time sailing on her home harbour.

Just for a bit of boat porn, here are the ladies that gave me the passion i have today:

Solway maid:
http://www.klassischeyachten.de/solwaymaid/fotos1.php

Istros:
http://www.istros.co.uk/

I think I was born 50 years too late as i have such a love for old boats, cars & motorbikes.

Enough from me.

Good to have found such a helpful forum.

Regards,
James.

S.V. Airlie
04-02-2007, 05:54 PM
Thanks for the background.. I hate to say it, as your doctor, you have the " bug " and there ain't a cure.
Good luck...

ps.. if ya had not responded, we would have done a background check to be sure you weren't all there. LOL....

dreyer
04-02-2007, 06:04 PM
Its also good to see i have managed to get some of you lot using the old pythagoras theorem! Probably turning a few gears that dont get oiled too often. I thought about doing this then went with the hands on route of a tape measure & a 40 foot container.

:D

S.V. Airlie
04-02-2007, 06:07 PM
I still think you can ship it separately. I mean, ya take off the rigging, all ya have is a long piece of wood. Can put that practically anywhere on a freighter. Won't even be seen.

Nicholas Carey
04-02-2007, 06:26 PM
I still think you can ship it separately. I mean, ya take off the rigging, all ya have is a long piece of wood. Can put that practically anywhere on a freighter. Won't even be seen.The Center for Wooden Boats had a Camper & Nicholson 6m ERICA (K-57, ex-HECATE, ex-ERICA), which we sold and shipped, from Seattle, to her new owner in the UK (where she is apparently doing quite well in the "classic 6m" circuit).

I helped take ERICA apart and ready for shipping...as I remember it, ERICA in her cradle fit (just) in a 40-foot open-top container, with her sheerline a bit above the top of the container. Her mast was, I believe, somewhat too long to fit in the container.

If I remember right, though, (it's been something like 7 years), we built cradles for the mast on ERICA's decks, put the mast in the cradles and strapped it down, through ERICA's cockpit to the floors, so the spar essentially was above top of the container, overhanging its ends. The shipping firm was down with it.

Arrived in England in good shape and without incident, after a nice trip through the Panama canal.

hansp77
04-02-2007, 08:25 PM
Thanks for the story James.

Good luck with it all, and keep us updated.

P.S. is this (http://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/rhodes33.htm) the design?
http://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/rhodes33-sketch-s.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/rhodes-33-dock-2-s.jpghttp://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/rhodes-33-sailing-2-s.jpg

Mrleft8
04-02-2007, 08:39 PM
Kinda like cutting the queen size matress in half to fit it up the staircase.....

Dan McCosh
04-02-2007, 09:20 PM
Assuming the joint is below the deck, I could think of a sleeve that would work and allow you the disassemble it at will.

dreyer
04-02-2007, 10:11 PM
Thanks for the story James.

Good luck with it all, and keep us updated.

P.S. is this the design?



Hi Hans,
Yes that is the design. And the boat in your photos is 'Madness' I have been in contact with the owner and looked over her & photos of her restoration. The owner is exceptionally helpful and knowledgeable on the rhodes 33s ; he has been sailing them since the late 50s/early 60s.

Regards,
James.

dreyer
04-03-2007, 12:26 AM
pretty tough driving that to New Zealand Mate....

Paul Fitzgerald
04-03-2007, 05:42 AM
Page from me :) - 81.95.145.234/index.html
This is the Rhodes, isn't it.
Just cut the top off nice and square and deal with it when you get it here. I'll put you in touch with Peter Brookes, the boatbuilder who did exactly that to get Natica here in a container from the UK, and he'll help you work out the scarfs for the repair.

In fact. I just rang and he confirmed it.
just do it ,even if it hurts.

John, why would you cut it square? I had an extra few feet spliced into a spruce most I broke on my 12 foot skiff years ago. It was a great job, with two 12:1 splices meeting in a V along the centerline of the mast.
I would have thought cutting a 12:1 V at the top of the mast would allow you to glue it back together with resourcinol quite easily.

Its not a masthead rig, so I would think it is better to cut the top, rather than the bottom of the mast, so the splice is above the forestay fitting.

John B
04-03-2007, 02:02 PM
As I said, I rang Peter Brookes, the boatbuilder who did exactly this to get a similar sized boat in a container to bring it from the UK to here. Thats what he did after much consideration. He actually just clothespin scarfed each piece back in and 'its as strong as it was before'. ( his method re used the masthead) (Oi where's Jims post gone .. that was a goody.)

I'd imagine that its possible that you could set up a jig and handsaw or sabresaw a single clothespin scarf into the mast but even the best cut is going to need cleaning up and I'd think you could quite easily lose 1/2 an inch or so( depending on how good a job you did) .Even then, you'd be left with some sharp ,delicate scarf ends you have to transport .

Hufflepuff
04-03-2007, 07:26 PM
I'm no expert on the scarfing issue. But I think you can easily sidestep it with either a 45' container (look into NZ ports, talk to shipping companies) which I know are used on a regulart basis in Port of L.A. (Close enough to San Diego to sail the boat) or use the overtall/overlong open-top idea. Talk to shipping companies, I get the feeling they are used to working with unusual cargos. And all freighters have a top layer of cargo. Same to them whether your container is there or on the bottom.

Gorgeous boat...