Problems painting with Kirby's in warm temps [Archive]

RodB

07-05-2005, 05:46 PM

So I got my Kirby's semi-gloss light gray alkyd enamel and was ready to paint my boat, starting with my console. Since its stitch and glue all the panels are glassed and primed with a sandable base coat.

My first attempt (console only) was mixing the paint about 30 % with even amounts of Penetrol and mineral spirits...temp around 86 degrees... used a 2" badger brush...results not good at all. The second attempt was 30% Penetrol only, temp about 80 degrees...rolled and tipped... results much better but still about 25% of surfaces will need to be sanded and repainted. I was rolling and tipping. The paint just dries too damn fast so there is not time for it to blend and settle. Coolest temps here in Dallas are 80 degrees at 0600.

Any suggestions would be welcome. I realize it will be better with two people and plan to try that. My console has lots of nice radiused corners and is about 48" from bow to stern, and 25 inches across...so lots of surface to cover quickly. I don't want to wait until October for cooler temps... help!

RB

[ 07-07-2005, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

pcford

07-05-2005, 06:00 PM

Brightsides or Petit Easypoxy.

Enthusiasm for Kirby Paint does not extend much further than the boundaries of the screen you are looking at. It's one of the strange things about this forum

They've got some good old-timey colors though.

Peter Malcolm Jardine

07-05-2005, 06:17 PM

......and sometimes it's just to hot to paint. :(

Bob Cleek

07-05-2005, 06:57 PM

Eighty degrees is really the upper limits of amateur painting, I'd say. If you want to lengthen drying time, you will need Penetrol and a slow drying thinner. These are made specifically for the purpose. Check with your paint store. Also, too much Penetrol will affect the paint coating. Use it as directed (or maybe a little more.) Penetrol is a paint conditioner, not a paint thinner.

Now, with due respect to people who think otherwise, the problem you are experiencing is most likely caused more by your "rolling and tipping" than anything else. Learn to paint like a painter. If you work properly with a decent brush, you shouldn't have any problem laying down a good finish coat if you keep your wet edge moving. I am not the least bit surprised that you are having brush stroke problems if you roll the paint on in 80 degree weather and then go back and fuss with it with a brush! Give whoever gave you this "rolling and tipping" idea a good kick in the ass!

[ 07-05-2005, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

Todd Bradshaw

07-05-2005, 07:20 PM

I get great results rolling and tipping paint and varnish, and I'm almost as old and cranky as Bob - BUT, there are limits to the technique. The thin paint film applied by the roller gets too stiff to mess with really fast in hot conditions and as Bob indirectly pointed out, you probably don't have time to finish the two-step application process before it's too late to touch the stuff. A good brush is most likely a better option unless a nice big cold front blows through. Even then, there are some surfaces which are either too small or too irregular in shape to be worth rolling and tipping.

RodB

07-05-2005, 10:09 PM

One of the main reasons I picked Kirby's was the availability of semi-gloss plus all the positive feedback on how beautiful it came out.

The first attempt was with a badger brush, but 85 degrees, and I know the paint was thinned more than 30 percent with even amounts of mineral spirits and Penetrol. I could not keep a wet line but did manage to get a coat of paint on her that was easily sanded with 180 grit. My badger brush is a 2 inch model that is quite thick... from Lee Valley. If a better tool (brush) is recommended I will get it.

Its funney, I did have a few recommendations on using Alkyd enamel as it is supposedly easier to get a nice finish than the Polyurathanes and the Linear Polys for amautuers. Also lots of folks have commented on the ease of getting a decent finish with roll and tip...technique. My mistake for thinking 80 degrees was OK to try...

On my second attempt I saw the advantage of moving across the side of my console rolling and tipping but I was not able to do as fast as I would have liked... although it came out more or less uniform over about 80% of the surface, the other 20% was crummy. I can understand why some folks take up spraying paint, but I am determined to become decent at hand applications...besides, I know I have over an inch thick of printed threads from this forum on painting... I guess I'll start reading them for recommended brushes and techniques.

Hey Bob, give me the name of a slow drying thinner.

RB

[ 07-05-2005, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

pipefitter

07-05-2005, 10:22 PM

Ever notice how warm a wood boat feels to the touch in that temperature? I was outside the other day thinking that it surely had slow baked the primer. The hull was quite warm. Not nearly as much in the morning though. You might consider covering the boat overnight so no moisture settles on it and then painting it earlier before it gets too warm.

Canoeyawl

07-05-2005, 10:44 PM

Retarder...
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/prodimg/EPI-F-1000.JPG

RodB

07-05-2005, 10:46 PM

Hey Jake,

Does it work with Alkyd Enamels?

Hey Pipefitter, I already tried it at around 0700 and still the ambient temp was over 80 degrees.

RB

[ 07-05-2005, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

Bob Cleek

07-05-2005, 11:05 PM

It may just be too hot to paint. This happens, although I've not had major problems with weather in the high seventies or eighties. SHADE helps big time. If you are painting topsides, try to time it so that you are painting the one side in the shade and then as the sun moves over, you are painting the other side in the shade.

Now, for "sanding easily with 180 grit," WOW! If you are at the finish stage, you should need only be "dulling" the surface with a Scotchbrite pad. Years ago, we would use 220 by hand (not on a sander) to skuff the surface, but the Scotchbrite is really great. It does the job and you don't even really have to worry about dust, since it is so fine it doesn't matter.

I don't know exactly how big an area you are painting, but the drill goes like this. Thin your paint until it is the consistency of cream, or maybe half and half. Then, using a brush that is large enough (don't attempt topsides with a two incher! For that a four incher is called for), lay the paint down fast and tip it off, moving against the wet edge. Don't fuss with it. Trust the paint to level itself. If you see something you missed... IT'S TOO LATE! LOL Just figure you will catch it the next coat. In my opinion, most crummy paint jobs are a result of 1) poor paint mixing, 2) poor environmental conditions (too hot, too dusty) and 3) people trying to go back and "touch up" an area that has already started to set. Think of it this way, if you have dipped your brush in the paint since you painted an area, it's too late! Also, don't make yourself crazy buying badger brushes. They are wonderful, but not necessary. A good Purdy natural bristle brush will do just as well, if you use it right. The brush has little or nothing to do with the paint job. It just carries paint to the surface. It's all in the wrist!

Canoeyawl

07-05-2005, 11:27 PM

Rod, I have never used this product but suspect it is compatible with all simple paints and varnishes (it is advertised as such). It is a tung oil product as near as I can make out. I would not hesitate to try it in your situation and am considering trying it rather than my own custom sauce when I varnish Sally this winter (at about 70 degrees -LOL).
try google, "epifanes easy flow"

Wild Wassa

07-06-2005, 12:08 AM

RB, following on from the Jedi. Another tack is, cool water bath all of the chemistry over night. 80F ambient temperature is probably close to 80 in the can as well. Keep adding the odd ice cube to the bath.

All paint has an optimum window of about 62-72F (or close enough). I like the paint to be at about 60-64F. I like paint coldish.

Using a levelling agent like Penetrol, that's the go as well, as I see that you do.

I change brushes often when I paint sometimes every 4 minutes or there abouts ... or the moment I see skinning on the bristles (at the tide mark). This one is a hard ask though. Duplicating tools, good brushes are expensive.

I wonder if you could be applying too much paint to the brush/roller and trying to level with the roller a bit too much creating problems by over-rolling?

You can also add a bit of extra oil. Nothing slows oil based/alkyd paints from skinning like adding oil. Just a drop or two of refined linseed ... not a good slurp otherwise the paint might take until Xmas to set.

If you do add oil measure all quantities ... for accurate repeatable results.

Warren.

[ 07-06-2005, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

RodB

07-06-2005, 12:40 AM

Now, for "sanding easily with 180 grit," WOW! If you are at the finish stage, you should need only be "dulling" the surface with a Scotchbrite pad. Years ago, we would use 220 by hand (not on a sander) to skuff the surface, but the Scotchbrite is really great. It does the job and you don't even really have to worry about dust, since it is so fine it doesn't matter.

Bob, Prior to starting painting, I finish sanded all epoxy/glassed surfaces with 100 grit on my ROS. Once I primed with my high build base coat primer, I sanded with 120 grit on my ROS. All looked pretty damn smooth and most of my complaints are not about the underlying surface smoothness, but the lack of uniformity of the coat of paint I had applied.

I was using 180 grit sandpaper on a rubber block because there were enough raised drips and thickened areas that needed to be knocked down level from my first attempt at 85 degrees plus. BTW, at almost 100 degrees these days as a high that Kirby's paint sure was hard and sanded well with my rubber sanding block but in some areas I took off more paint than necessary.

On rolling and tipping I was using a 7" standard foam roller pad cut in half on a 3" paint roller frame. I rolled an area about 5-6 inches wide and then immediately brushed across from dry to wet with a 2" foam brush. . ...and then rolled the succeeding section next to it. If moving fast I was able to get the paint from the succeeding rolling swath to blend with the first via the foam brush...but within just a few minutes, I could tell the paint was needing more thinner or something...and also that the paint already laid down was setting up too fast. . . and my paint was diluted 30 % with Penetrol and or mineral spirits. Kirby's suggested adding equal amounts of mineral spirits and Penetrol to a level even more than 30 %.

I will try a larger brush. I also wondered if turpentine would be better than mineral spirits? AND I can try adding some linseed oil.

Jake,
I will try your suggestion, it can't hurt...thanks.

I can also try cooling the paint per suggestions above. Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Bob...trying to paint the console first...and perhaps my paint is too thin... definitely as thin as half and half. After applying several large sections of non-skid (taped off and ground black walnut shells sprinkled into the paint and locked down with two thinned layers of paint) , I will be painting between these sections later on. All decks and interior of cockpit and non-skid will be light grey. I will be painting the topsides white, later on as the final step after taping the water line and the underside of the rubrail.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid175/p8c8bfb815f33993e81b54eb9b226e746/f37b7e15.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid175/p835119b262ffab2dd3a1af7b7ad6bb64/f37b7e1f.jpg
Console is 48 inches from bow to stern...and 25 inched wide.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid175/pb5d2336b7b87e4ef569d8407cefedc8a/f37b76c6.jpg
All primed ready for Kirbys...I only sand the area I'm ready to paint.

RB

[ 07-06-2005, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

pipefitter

07-06-2005, 01:19 AM

Also,the first coat over the sanded flat primer will dry faster than it will over the surface once it is sealed with a coat of paint. It will flow further on the brush too and probably stay wetter longer.

Scott Rosen

07-06-2005, 05:32 AM

Here's what I see.

There's no surface big enough on that boat to justify roll and tip. You should probably use a brush for the entire boat.

If you're getting a lot of drips and uneven coverage, it's partly because of your technique and partly because of your choice of applicators.

Foam brushes have no place with Kirby paints. The paints are just too full-bodied for a foam brush.

Try this: get yourself a 3" or 4" natural bristle brush, like a Purdy. Thin the paint at least 30%, maybe even more with Penetrol and turpentine or naptha. Use more thinner than Penetrol. When you apply the paint, dip the bristles about 25% in the paint; do not wipe the brush on the side of the bucket. Lay down the paint from the full brush, making sure you brush it out really well to get a thin, even coat. Then tip lightly in one direction. Quickly move on to the next area to keep the wet edge. If you are having trouble brushing it out, then add more thinner. You should be striving for an even coating. It won't look great after the first coat, because the primer will show through in spots. That's why you do a second coat.

Also, semi-gloss paint doesn't flow as well as gloss. It's almost impossible to eliminate the brush marks completely. However, when the paint is fully cured (a few days, at least), the surface will appear much more even than when it is first applied.

Matt J.

07-06-2005, 06:42 AM

1. See Misc. Boats - topic on overfinishing. ;) I painted Rarus' topsides in a bit over 80 degrees. It was a beast, but the yard was pleased with the paint and the finish. It's a 5 foot job to me, but folks are complimentary, and I've learned to say thank you like I mean it.

2. Kirby's lays down a LOT over a day or two. My embarassment at my paint job was eased by the following evening.

3. Roll and tip didn't work for me either with Kirby's. Just couldn't lay it down right. I brush everything now, with whatever decent brush I find at the hardware store - not the cheapos, just appropriate for oil based paints. Decks are this weekend or next, topsides couple weeks ago, cabin top last weekend, bulwark, too - and it's never been much under 80 in the shed she's in. See No. 1 - only you see the horrific brush lines unless you point them out.

4. Shade. The sun will be murder to paint in. Last spring I did Rarus's topsides in gloss white... oof. 4 coats later, it was looking "good enough" with 220 grit RO sanding between. Remove the sun and you'll give yourself a longer window to work in... the shed this year was heaven compared to last year.

5. See No. 1. :D

Sorry I probably repeated most everything.

RodB

07-06-2005, 10:36 AM

Thanks again for the imput. I think my expectations were a bit too high, and I'm starting to realize the limitations of the process and of course my inexperience. I was hoping for better than a "5 foot job" and am determined to end up with a nice finish. I have tried to maintain a fairly high level of construction finish on this boat to now and do not want to settle for a mediocre paint job at the end... but now I will have a more realistic attitude.

By the way, I hang a tarp over the boat for shade unless its a cloudy day...I pretty much work with the boat tarped 99% of the time. ..although the heat radiated under the tarp ain't nothing to sneeze at.

I will get a larger brush and try again. Mr Kirby gave me a call per my call to him a few days ago. I appreciate his following up on my use of his product. He suggested using turps in lieu of mineral spirits, which I plan to do plus thinning the paint a little more. He also commented on the use of rolling and tipping could be some of the problem.

I'm also glad that using a brush alone has been recommended because I was feeling rolling and tipping was a two person job and I feel more comfortable with just having at it with a good brush. I have never had any problems painting trim etc on houses so I expect to get satisfactory results here one way or another. I will try again at the earliest light and coolest temps.

Thanks Scott for the more detailed technique recommendations, I appreciate it. I may try the cooler water bath too.

Thanks to all,

RB

[ 07-06-2005, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

Matt J.

07-06-2005, 11:41 AM

Rod,
I've never done what I consider less than a 5 foot job, but my wife's never thought it was more than a one foot job, and the pros at the yard were flatteringly complementary. My point is sometimes it's hard for me (you, us, whatever) to see past the microscopic flaws, and the game is to reduce them to where we're happy.

I like the cold bath water idea.

The yard put it best while observing (supervising) my paint job on the topsides - always end the brushing with a long stroke back into the previous area to blend them - that's the wet edge everyone talks about. Our hosts book (Painting and Varnishing) describes the method, too; that's where I saw how it's supposed to be done.

hikingchrs

07-06-2005, 12:53 PM

The instructor at my last boat building class said
"Stop sanding boys and girls that is the bottom of your boat, not the top of your dinning room table."
Chris

pcford

07-06-2005, 01:03 PM

RodB,

You’ve received a lot of answers to your question; some advice is good and some rather less so. First, remember that painting ain’t easy. Varnishing gets the flowing praise, but paint is harder to do. With paint you are seeing just the surface of the wood; all has to be perfect.

1. Paint. Kirby’s (like CPES) has a fanatical group of followers which are contained within the four corners of this screen. CPES has its value…I suppose, though I’ve never used it. Some reading this forum would think that it is absolutely essential. Kirby’s, in my humble opinion, is even more overrated. Use a modern paint like Brightsides or Petit Easypoxy. Paint formulation is a complicated business these days. A small company just can’t afford the infrastructure to develop paint. No one I know uses Kirby paint. I did see some many years ago in a shop which was oriented toward classical boats. Its owner was from the Northeast. Like Woodenboat magazine, perhaps he tended to promote products from that area.
2. Thinner: You need to use a paint which has proper accelerants and retardants. USE THE THINNER THAT IT SAYS TO USE ON THE CAN!!!!!! The manufacturer has spent years developing their product. They know more about their product than you do. THEY WANT YOU TO SUCCEED!!!! It’s a simple lesson, but it’s one that took me years to understand. Use of Penetrol, generic paint thinner and turpentine is to be avoided. Penetrol is not compatible with some paints. Can you guess which ones? I can’t either. I know that single part urethanes don’t like it.
3. Tools. Roll and tip is the way to go. Those that disparage it just don’t know how to do it properly. Rollers get the paint distributed evenly. Uneven distribution is the cause of runs. Runs can be caused by a too-thin coat below a thicker film. The best professional brush painter in the area uses the method. Kim Lazare is a Zen master of brush painting. He could paint a car with a brush and it would be a credible job. (80 years ago, cars were commonly painted with brushes. There were very fine quality brushes for cars) If you can get someone to help you roll and tip, it is better. Then you have four eyes inspecting the work progression. Also the labor division seems to make things go better. You are concentrating on either rolling or tipping. The areas on your boat are certainly large enough for roll and tip. HOWEVER, you need to use the proper tools. You can’t use just any roller. Tiz rollers are the ones available ‘round here. They are yellow and the foam is very thin. Bristle brushes are much better than foam. However, I tell amateurs to use foam brushes, at least at first. Foam brushes have a negative quality that they don’t apply the paint in a thick film. For an lnexperienced painter this is a plus. You could certainly do a credible semigloss paint job. I would use a 3” foam brush though. Get the ones with a wooden handle. The ones with a plastic handle are not worth a darn. Once you gain more confidence, you should use a bristle brush. I personally don’t like badger brushes. Too thick and are impossible to clean. I like top grade Purdy brushes. However, for build coats I’ve had good luck with cheap Corona brushes. Just toss ‘em when the coat is done.
4. Application. Proper thinning is a tricky thing. Can’t tell you how much to use, except to say that you will not find 30% thinning in a professional paint. Proceed in small amounts until the paint flows properly. In weather as hot as yours you should be using retardant of course. It should be possible to do a good job in 80 degree weather; if the wind is blowing it is more difficult. I would sand undercoat to 120. Build coats 220. Before the final coat sand with 320. Remember! A holiday is always preferable to a run. Until you gain confidence, put the paint on thin. A dry foam brush can be used to wipe away runs.

As I said above, high quality painting is difficult. Some of the procedure, like how much thinner to use or how the brush should feel can’t really be described. You just have to do it. There are many ways to skin a cat. However, what I have described is how professional brush painters in the NW would proceed.

And good luck to you sir.

pcf

RodB

07-06-2005, 01:44 PM

PCF,

Let me explain my rationale on choosing Kirbys. One of my highest priorities was the availability of a semi-gloss and my second priority was the supposed ease of application for the beginner with the creamy alkyd enamels (I chose Kirby's as one of the alkyd enamels that seemed to have good reports and came in a semi-gloss). I would even prefer a "satin" finish over a glossy, just my preference.

I would much rather choose a single part Polyurathane or a linear P if it was easy to get a semi-gloss and the application was straight forward. I realize the Linear Poly's and Polyurathane paints last longer and are tougher but I also planned on keeping my boat covered and so I would expect several years out of my paint job with alkyd enamel. The repainting with the alkyd enamel was also quite straight forward from what I have been able to ascertain.

So there you have it. The Polyurathanes and L. Polyurathanes were high gloss and more difficult to apply...from the literature etc I have been able to read.

My entire boat is primed with a fast drying base coat: #1640 Overlay from Parker Paint by Great Northwest Paint (interior/exterior Alkyd flat primer finish). . . which sands beautifully, and is thinned with Xylol (Xylene) and adheres very well to clean sanded epoxy. I don't know if using this primer pretty much makes me committed to Alkyd enamels but I assume so.

I have not found much information on adding flatners to the Poly paints either and the Kirbys already had a semi-gloss available.

BTW, the information I got on using Turps, Penetrol and mineral spirits came from Kirbys.

I have invested about $150 for 3 gallons of Kirbys and hope to make it work, but am open to suggestions...always.

RB

[ 07-06-2005, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

Bruce Hooke

07-06-2005, 01:44 PM

Regarding the debate about Kirby's...I think a lot depends on what you are looking for...if you are looking for a traditional looking, lower-gloss paint in traditional colors then clearly Kirby's has a lot of attraction, if you are looking for a "modern" super high-gloss finish then clearly it does not make much sense to use Kirby's! It does stike me as rather absurd to suggest that Kirby's is only popular "on screen" -- there are clearly a lot of experienced people around here who actually use the stuff and like it...

I get rather sick of the posts that claim that people with a lot of experience who do or do not like a particular techinque must be damn fools because of their opinion that particular technique. It is more helpful to say why a particular technique works for you and how to apply the technique, and keep in mind that even if you have a great deal of experience there may be reasons why your preferred technique would not work well for someone else...

Dan McCosh

07-06-2005, 01:59 PM

In 86 degrees, sunlight could be heating the surface to 150 degrees or so. That would make any painting impossible. Shade is a start, but I can't visualize painting in that temperature in any case. How about painting at night?

pcford

07-06-2005, 02:45 PM

RodB,

Linear polyurethane is very expensive,toxic and hard to brush apply. Single part polyurethane (Petit Easypoxy) is easy to use.

Easypoxy has retardants which Kirby's does not. Easy poxy does not have semigloss in your color out of the can, but they have flatting solution.

Three gallons (!) seams far too much paint for your boat.

There is no doubt that you can do a decent job with Kirby's paint. It will just be much harder. Why bother?

If I were you, there is no doubt that I would send the Kirby's back. You won't use all the three gallons anyway. Try fisheriessupply.com. They are a major supplier here in Seattle. It'll be easier in the long run.

I have no idea if Kirby's will roll and tip; maybe you should ask the manufacturer. Whatever you use, it's important to use the right tools.

By the way, Parker Paint is ok, used some in the far distant past. However, you should always use the undercoat suggested on the can. Again, follow the instructions on the can.

regards,
pcf

hikingchrs

07-06-2005, 03:02 PM

pcford

07-06-2005, 03:07 PM

I painted my boat on a nice evening in the fall not to hot with kirby's #9 cream paint straight out of the can rolled and tipped off, used no primer painted directly on top of the epoxy most people think I sprayed it on I think it is just too hot and adding too many chemicals. I am no pro but I think I have less than a 5' finnish Sure. But RodB's reason for posting originally is problems with high temperature. You can apply finish from just above freezing to the 90s. But it's easier at a moderate temperature.

RodB

07-06-2005, 03:31 PM

I ordered a couple of gallons of light gray because I figured I would use up a bit of paint applying the non-skid to several sections on the boats decks and cockpit floor...at least 3 coats to lock down the non skid ground black walnut hulls. I ordered a 3rd gallon of white for the topsides even though I will not need near that much as I thought a quart was too little.

BTW, just because photos show boat not covered, all my work is under a blue tarp...no direct sun and I plan to paint early early morning before the sun comes up.

Maybe the paint has too much additives, maybe starting at a 30% addition of Penetrol and mineral spirits is a mistake, perhaps I should leave the paint thicker and see how that works in the low 80's in temp.

I think I agree with the criticism of the badger brush, I just bought a nice Purdey 3" and just playing with it, it seems it would be easy to get a smooth finish.

RB

[ 07-06-2005, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

pcford

07-06-2005, 04:07 PM

RodB

Purdy brush is much better. I think ox hair is top of the line. I think you'd be better off to start with a 3" foam brush. But whatever you use, be sure to err on the stingy side when applying. Important!!! Holidays are better than runs.

Add only enough thinner to allow the brush to pull easily. This will be learned by experience

RodB

07-06-2005, 04:33 PM

The top of the console seems will be easier with a brush, but there are lots of larger flats that will be perfect for rolling and tipping. I will be experimenting with both.

RB

CaseyJones

07-06-2005, 06:09 PM

I got very nice results with my Kirby's by rolling & tipping. I used a 6" white foam roller and a 4" foam brush. I didn't thin the paint at all, but probably could have.

[ 07-07-2005, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: CaseyJones ]

Gary E

07-06-2005, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by hikingchrs:
I am no pro but I think I have less than a 5' finnish
ChrisWhatz that?

Bob Cleek

07-06-2005, 07:09 PM

I once wrote a long post on painting topsides which has found its way into the FAQ's, I believe. I'm not going to write it again, nor will I argue with the "rollers and tippers." Each to his own. All I know is that I won't settle for less than a "zero foot" finish and I regularly get one. I might add an additional observation which I am sure everyone has heard before. A perfect paint job is ninety-nine percent preparation and one percent application. If you have a perfectly smooth surface, getting a perfect finish is simply a matter of not putting on too much paint and not fussing with it after it starts to dry. If you have problems with curtains and drips, you are putting too much paint down and/or not spreading it out enough. Finish coats should be put on thin and built up, coat after coat. The technique is as Scott described above. Take a good load on your brush, don't scrape it off on the edge of the can. It should be as much as the brush holds, but not so much that it is dripping on the way to the paint surface. If there's too much, just tap it against the inside of the can, not scrape it on the edge. They you take that puppy and slap it on the area you are going to paint. Don't be bashful, you have to work fast. Your first strokes lay the paint on the surface. It takes some practice, but you are aiming to put a bunch of paint from the brush to the area you want to paint, with enough distance between the paint you lay on and the wet edge that when you spread it out, it will be even.

Now, I often will lay it out in an X shape, with one stroke from one side of the loaded brush and the other from the other side. This puts the paint on the surface and off the brush. Then you brush it to spread it out over the area you are painting. Now, painting areas like this is all in the ARM, not the wrist. You should be taking good long relaxed strokes, two or three feet long. I'm talking about topsides here now, so those long strokes should be taken with a good sized brush, like a four or six incher. For smaller areas, a smaller brush is appropriate. The size of the brush will dictate how fast you can lay the paint over the area at hand. Spread the paint thinly so it covers, but don't fuss with it. Then move on down the line until you are done.

Your first finish coat will be thin and probably show some of the dull undercoat surface. That will be covered with later coats. For any topsides job from the base coat up, you should expect to lay down at least three coats and perhaps even five. Thin coats built up, not thick ones that will drip and sag.

Now, there isn't any magic in Kirby's paint, except that George Kirby is a great guy and you can talk to him on the phone and get whatever advice you need. They also will mix whatever paint color you want and have a great selection of stock traditional boat colors. (Try to find any color but white at your local WasteMarine!) Kirby also makes stuff that is almost impossible to find in anything less than 55 gallon drums, like white lead paste and red lead primer. Other than that, it is only a good quality alkyd based oil paint. Simple stuff that you can thin and treat as needed with nonproprietary thinners and such. On the other hand, Petit 'poxy is a pain in the butt. I spray it on occasion, but I find it takes unusually long to dry and lacks the amount of pigment to really get the coverage you can expect from an alkyd paint. As said above, those fancy polymer compounds are also very fussy when it comes to additives and conditioners. The maker's designated thinner will have their name on it and cost more for a quart than five gallons of ordinary turps!

As for "rolling and tipping," I've never seen it done by a professional painter. I can't imagine a pro taking the time to roll when he can work with the brush in one hand and the can in the other and whip it out quickly. Less mess and clean up, too. But, somebody here says otherwise. What do I know, I'm just related to a family that ran one of the biggest commercial painting companies in the SF Bay Area and I only know what I've learned over a half century of slinging paint. LOL

BTW, just to make you really crazy, I'll mention that I prefer to do nonskid by laying a coat of epoxy resin down and then pouring sand in the chosen grit size on top of it to a depth of about an inch. The weight of the sand will press it into the wet epoxy without your having to mess with it and insure the nonskid surface is uniform. You can tape off the epoxy area with that puke green lacquer proof 3M masking tape. Don't use anything else because the solvents in the epoxy will scoot right under the tape.

After the epoxy has cured, take your shop vac and vacuum up all the loose sand. Brush the surface lightly with a broom to break the sand that is just barely adhered off and vacuum that up, too. Then paint over the surface. You will have a super nonskid surface that will not wear off like walnut shells and will look a lot more uniform. You can control the roughness by picking the size of sand you use.

[ 07-06-2005, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

RodB

07-06-2005, 07:29 PM

Thanks Bob, I much prefer the brush and have no experience with roll and tip.. . although I need to learn both.

Additionally, I wanted to avoid putting non-skid in the epoxy and put it in the paint, because of the ease of re-doing it later on...touching up areas etc. I did some tests and like what I came up with with 20/30 grit ground walnut shells... even if it doesn't last as long as sand. I went a little larger in grit than I would have in sand, but expect it to be functional and look good. I also like the fact that the walnuts are just hard wood and easy to sand off.

I would hope to be able to do a decent paint job with only a brush but have read many times about the ease of getting good results with roll and tip method. I want to become quite adept with a brush but remain totally open minded. Thanks for the comments.

RB

[ 07-06-2005, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

Todd Bradshaw

07-06-2005, 08:14 PM

Would Gougeon Brothers count as professionals who advocate and use the roll and tip technique? They seem to know a thing or two about boats.... I learned how to roll and tip by reading their books long before there were any Internet forums telling me that the technique was a waste of time. As far as I can tell, the rolling is just another way to put down a uniform coat of paint that doesn't sag and the tipping part of the process is no different from those final careful strokes used on an area of brushed-on paint before moving on to the next one. The facts are that it does work and can work very well - and there are plenty of boats out there with nice paint jobs that prove it. It's simply another means to achieve a nice even surface. Some like it better than brushing, some don't, but it's hardly radical enough to spawn a big debate. The fact that certain professionals have been using the same technique for 50 years may mean that that technique works well, but certainly doesn't mean that it's the only technique that will work.

...edited to add that if I can roll and tip epoxy resin filler coats (which I do regularly) I can't imagine that there is an enamel that is too thick for it to also work, but you still need a certain amount of pot life on the surface in order to complete the process and without that the technique just isn't going to produce the results you're after.

[ 07-06-2005, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

Ed Harrow

07-06-2005, 08:43 PM

Rod, this reminds me of a meeting at my old employer - Pose a question to the ten parties attending the meeting and get 12 different opinions. ;) (you don't need mine, LOL)

Hughman

07-06-2005, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
BTW, just to make you really crazy, I'll mention that I prefer to do nonskid by laying a coat of epoxy resin down and then pouring sand in the chosen grit size on top of it to a depth of about an inch. Bob, how do you get rid of the non-skid sand when you want to change/renew/fix the surface?

RodB

07-06-2005, 10:03 PM

I definitely got the feel of rolling and tipping during my 2nd attempt on my console, but still the paint was drying too fast and I didn't get an overall decent job over about 15% of the surfaces. Both brushing and roll and tip require some practice and attention to temp, paint thinning,etc... I want to be decent at both methods...but in the future will have someone help me when rolling and tipping.
RB

[ 07-06-2005, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

Scott Rosen

07-07-2005, 09:17 AM

You know, Rod, you could rent or buy a spray rig.

For semi-gloss and flatter paints, spray gets the best finish by far. When spraying a semi-gloss, you will need to use a faster/hotter thinner. If you use an HVLP setup, you will need to thin at least 30%, maybe more, no Penetrol. For the gloss paints, you can do as well with a brush (or roll and tip, I suppose), once you get the hang of it.

What makes a paint semi-gloss is the addition of silica or talc or some other minerals. In other words, rocks. Those additives hinder the paint's ability to level and flow. That's why some of us will thin a semi-gloss paint by 30% or so. Many of the commercially available paints, like pettit, interlux, etc., are easier to apply because the manufacturer adds the thinners and flow enhancers at the factory. In a sense, they are dumbing down the paint for ameteur use. George Kirby doesn't do that. The true "professional use only" paints come very thick, with very few thinners, retarders, enhancers, etc. added. They leave that to the painter, who is supposed to know how to best mix the paint for the conditions.

I just repainted my dingy after three years. It's stored out of doors year 'round, no cover. The hull is painted with Kirby's. It's lasted longer than any other oil-based product I've used, (except Rivale polyurethane, which has the best longevity I've seen, but is the fussiest to apply). I'm in awe of how long the paint job lasted. The only signs of paint failure were in the transom, which had some checking. It's Sapele plywood, so the checking is more the fault of my prep work than the paint. The original paint job was CPES followed by Kirby's primer followed by three very well thinned coats of Kirby's #1 Green/Gray semi-gloss. I applied it by brush. I would consider it a 1 foot or better paint job, judging by the comments I get.

For this repainting, I stripped the transom, primed it with a few coats of Interlux 401/404 epoxy primer and then topcoated with Kirby's.

Here's a secret. Any gloss alkyd enamel will become semi-gloss pretty fast with exposure to the sunlight. You could paint with gloss, which would flow and level easier, and by the end of the season, you would have an almost-semi-gloss finish. LOL

RodB

07-07-2005, 12:50 PM

All and all, I'm not interested in spraying for several reasons but mostly I am determined to become adept at hand applications.

The dry Kirbys on my console looks pretty good in a significant percent of the surface area, and the paint is really quite hard. If I can just get a decent final application where it stays wet long enough to blend and settle... so it looks more uniform...it will be fine. Looking over my first two attempts allows one to see the potential if you can get a decent application. I did do a better job with the roll and tip attempt than with the brush, but in fairness, the 2" badger brush was too stiff and thick and I'm sure I can do better with the 3" Purdey brush I bought.

Next attempt on console, Sat Am...early. I want to stay with the Kirbys because I have plenty of paint and it is a quality Alkyd enamel that is semi-gloss and a great color...plus the non-skid ground walnut shells look great with this paint.

I'm going to use turpentine instead of mineral spirits as it is slower supposedly...and I'm going to go with 50/50 turps/Penetrol.... as thinner...78-84 degrees at 0700 ...

I also plan to do a couple tests with less and more thinner...just to satisfy my curiosity as I have pretty much started with 30% additives... and nothing more or less. I have three smaller panels that can be painted separately (seat, front panel and hatch cover) so I can experiment with them as they are about 25" by 18" or there-abouts. I plan to try these before doing the console again. I want to paint one with no Penetrol, turps only.

Todd, I agree, if I can get perfectly flat applications of epoxy when glassing panels via rolling and tipping, one would think it would be no problem to do the same thing with paint. You are right, "pot life" is the key and I 'm not getting long enough time here ...that is the problem but short of waiting until fall, I am determined to prevail...besides, I have a lot of Redfish and Speckled trout to catch in October.

RB

[ 07-07-2005, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

Bob Cleek

07-07-2005, 01:26 PM

As for removing sand set in epoxy, there really isn't any way to do it, short of a chisel, I guess. Point is, if not the sand in epoxy that you can't remove, then how are you going to remove the epoxy underneath it? And why would you want to do so? Sand in epoxy is relatively permanent. If you feel the need to retain the option to grind off the surface at some time in the future, I wouldn't advise it. If you put it down, expect it to stay there for the life of the boat. If only paint would do the same!

Figment

07-07-2005, 07:13 PM

The universe works in wonderful ways. Two recent observations....

1) Most boats are juuuuuust big enough for you to really develop a "feel" for good painting technique just in the last ten minutes of the job.

2) Most paints last juuuuust long enough for your wrist to forget that "feel" before starting the repaint job.

:D

RodB

07-07-2005, 07:37 PM

How about the skills you learn throughout the boabuilding process that just as soon as you get it down, you are done with that stage.

RB

Ed Harrow

07-07-2005, 08:01 PM

C223 - My favorite for that sort of thing are what I know as "sash tools". They are round brushes. Mine are ancient (as most here are tired of hearing, LOL), but they are still available.

That con job is a "no-sweat" simple brush job.

I confess to doing my first "Roll & Tip" the other week (a top-sides job), and can confirm the comment about mostly mastering it when I had about ten minutes of work remaining. It might have been faster than painting (esp given the small brushes availableto me), but I'm still not convinced.

pcford

07-07-2005, 08:28 PM

Bob Cleek wrote:
As for "rolling and tipping," I've never seen it done by a professional painter. I can't imagine a pro taking the time to roll when he can work with the brush in one hand and the can in the other and whip it out quickly. Less mess and clean up, too. But, somebody here says otherwise. What do I know, I'm just related to a family that ran one of the biggest commercial painting companies in the SF Bay Area and I only know what I've learned over a half century of slinging paint. LOL

Mr. Cleek's reply reminds me of a typical trip to Home Depot. You ask a question of a clerk and you get a reply that clearly indicates that he thinks you don't know what you are talking about. In fact, the clerk is the one that is deficient.

For small to medium sized boats it is extremely common for painters to use roll and tip. Larger boats, let's say roughly 45 ft. and above are often sprayed. It is evidently true that Mr. Cleek has never seen a painter use the roll and tip method. If he had he would not make the claim that brushing is faster. It clearly is not. That's one of the reasons professionals use it. I never compared times but I'd guess it is maybe a third faster.

As to his claim to knowledge because he is related to a family that ran a commercial painting company; I fail to realize why that necessarily indicates greater knowledge in this instance. How related? I am related to a architect and a cattle rancher. Should that make me able to design a building or castrate a calf? The claim is foolish, even risible. "LOL" indeed. Oh, and by the way, is this a commercial _marine_ painting business? There will be a difference in the process, you know.

...The maker's designated thinner will have their name on it and cost more for a quart than five gallons of ordinary turps!

The cost of a quart of Easypoxy 110 slow thinner is about $13.89 at fisheriessupply.com. I see listings for turpentine at $12 per gallon. I'm sure it would be cheaper in five gallon lots. And who knows, with his "family connection" he might be able to get it cheaper. That is, in the unlikely event that commercial painters even use it any more.. Yes, the cost of these proprietary thinners is higher. But if it helps you get a quicker, better finish, why quibble?

To return to advice for RodB and any newby boat painters:

I have no doubt that an fresh amateur can get excellent results with brushing Kirby's paint. It will just be slower and more difficult than using a more professional grade of paint. Everyone has a different slant on the way to get paint on a boat. Mr. Cleek's advice for the most part is fine; I believe that he can get a good finish with his method. The problem is that he is just not familiar with the roll and tip method. That's fine for him, but for an amateur there are easier to use paints and methods. Use Kirby's if you wish; it'll be the long way around. It's a fine old product I am sure, but the continual touting of it here is a tad precious for me. They do have nice traditional colors though. But you can tint most any paint.

RodB has never answered me as to whether he is using Tiz rollers or something similar. It is absolutely critical that you use an extremely low nap foam roller. The black ones that are sold by the makers of the foam brushes will not work!!!!

I have no idea why Mr. Cleek has so much psychically invested in bashing the roll and tip method. He actually contemplates the justice of physical violence on its practioners. Does he feel that doubting his word will lower his ranking in this tiny, tiny stage on which we appear?

pcford

07-07-2005, 08:31 PM

RodB wrote:

How about the skills you learn throughout the boabuilding process that just as soon as you get it down, you are done with that stage.

Good point RodB. In my advancing years I see the same principle holds true for one's life in general.

But you may build another boat. Being around boats is an addiction harder to kick than heroin.

RodB

07-07-2005, 08:43 PM

Besides, I not only want to use and improve on the skills learned, but also want to come up with other opportunities to use all the cool tools that I have acquired or will acquire.

Seriously, I know it would be much simpler and cheaper to just buy a used FG boat and go sailing but...after building this first boat I cannot shake the urge to build a sailboat next.

RB

pipefitter

07-07-2005, 08:55 PM

And if all else fails you can use some of those words above to remove the badly painted spots and save a wad on sandpaper. My thinking was Mr Cleek's advice was on the heels of you having problems with the roll and tip method. Painting oil base paints with a well seasoned brush can attain very nice results. Semi gloss oils look more to their purpose with the brush marks even if slight. Oil paint says "wooden boat" where poly's say "plastic" If you want that hand made traditional look that isnt so perfect, oil is the right stuff. The poly's are to try to not make it look hand done.
Nice boat,btw. I live here in FL. and I fish for the same species and that boat would be perfect here. I considered the same type of boat.

[ 07-07-2005, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

RodB

07-07-2005, 09:31 PM

Pipefitter,

I have fished the Texas coast many years before conceptualizing this boat...usually in the wrong type of boat or wadefishing. I wanted a total package for a coastal flyfishing skifff...mainly for Reds and Specks and of course Tarpin.. I decided the tunnel boats with hydraulic jack plates, low water pickups, and 4 bladed SS props just chewed up too much of the bottom and had to go too fast to run shallow and plane...and were too heavy. They also need about 15 inches of water to do a "donut" and take off to get on a plane.

My boat will run shallow (5-8") either fast or slow and not hurt the bottom. BTW I have always kept Tarpin fishing in mind as I built this boat. I will be powering her with a 90hp Yamaha 2 stroke... and a mechanical jack plate manufactured by the jet pump folks. I will be able to change over from prop (90hp) to jet pump (drops to 65hp) in about an hour...which offers lots of versatility. This boat will have seat bases for Bass fishing and can hold 4 rigged flyrods.

The jet pump offers really shallow draft for fishing the flats of the Texas Coast. The prop is used everywhere else and we go to the lower Keys every year in late May to go flyfishing for Tarpin. I also am considering moving to the east coast of Florida ( the Marathon area, Homestead, or Fort Pierce). I sure will miss the great hunting in South Texas though...but will gain fishing for Permit, Bonefish and Tarpin plus close proximity to cool cruising grounds.

PCFord,
I have the yellow 7" foam rollers that are sold by System III and also a few from West Marine located by the West System Epoxy supplies. They all look to be 1/8" yellow foam rollers. I have built my boat mostly with the rollers from System III, which seem to be good quality. I have the Jen wooden handle 2" foam brushes for tipping and wish I had gotten 3" brushes (from Lee Valley...good quality).

RB

[ 07-08-2005, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

pipefitter

07-08-2005, 01:04 AM

RodB,

I live in the Tampa Bay area and fish for tarpon,snook,cobia and reds. I arrived at my boat much the same way you did yours. From fishing out of aluminum jon boats to mostly wading and some canoes. I fish in the bay itself and we do have some awesome fishing here for the above mentioned. I do love catching trout on jigs. Something about the way they thrash their heads at surface and seeing that bright yellow mouth and gills flared.Reds are my favorite to catch tho. They just keep digging and their fight is almost as strong to the very end.If you ever get down here in summer and want a go at the Tampa area fishing,best time is in summer when it is too hot to be out there. I know alot of spots here in the bay.I still wade tho even with the boat. I am just using mine to get me to the wading spots. That way everyone gets fair advantage and we just catch alot more fish wading.I will fish out of the boat some too when it gets too cold to wade. Our shop has a tunnel hull which is basically a carolina skiff with a tunnel. Ever tried poling a tunnel boat? They only go straight.And it will shake the teeth right outa your head in a chop.I build sightfishing towers for boats yet i wouldnt have one on my own.When we used to take ours I used to tell my boss we are gonna wedge this thing up in the mangroves somewhere and get out of it. I figure if you can see the fish,they can see you too. Wading,the reds come right by my feet yet in that tower boat they are at the very end of casting distance.We have one of those power poles on the tunnel too. Plus a poling platform. Always in my way when casting.Like I said,I think you have an ideal boat for what you are doing.I built a scratch model of something very similar to that what you have. I based the model on a garvey hull with decks alot like yours.We catch permit and dolphin over here too.Pompano and tripletail as well.You are going to have a blast in that boat.I built the Simmons Sea Skiff but this isnt going to be my last. I just fell in love with the boat.It will serve it's purpose just fine for the kind of fishing I do. I am sanding primer now and will start painting this weekend if the hurricane dennis stays away.

RodB

07-08-2005, 02:17 AM

Hey Pipefitter,

Yes I have poled a tunnel boat and "ease of poling" was a factor in the design. The only negative factor is I decided to build the 18 foot version rather than the 16 foot because I wanted to be able to comfortably take 3 or 4 people. .. (I commissioned plans for both sizes early on so I could choose which would be best). As time has gone by I would probably be better off with the 16 foot version simply because it would pole easier (either boat would be two feet longer with the sponsons.

My 18 footer is about 19' 8" LOA including the sponsons. The bottom is a 6 degree "V" with a width of 66 inches. The Beam is 84 inches. Hull weight should be around 750-850 lbs. I think she will pound a bit (not as much as a flat bottom) when running on choppy water but we have learned to just run in shallow water to minimize the effects of the chop. One of the best flyfishing guides on the Texas coast once said to me, "Never give up shallow draft for comfortable ride" because he went on " you need to get to the fish, and you can always run in the shallows to avoid the chop".

South Bay, down by Port Isabel has a very limited channel to enter the bay...but a shallow draft boat has access to hundreds of pot holes full of large Reds when the tide is right, etc...

We have a friend in South Padre Island (Port Isabel) who is a professional flyfishing guide and he owns a Maverick HPX ( 17 foot flats skiff that poles like a dream, hull weight 489 lbs, "v" hull, 70 hp Yamaha pocket drive). ONce you have poled such a boat you realize how easy a well designed boat will pole. One of my good friends is going to try to emulate the 17 foot HPX in Wood epoxy construction.

I also agree with you about wade fishing because we do pretty good with one guy poling and looking for fish, while the other fishes off the deck (we take turns) but sight casting while wade fishing does allow you to get closer to large Reds.

However, we do really enjoy slowly poling a flat with one on the platform and one on the deck...especially on a real soft mud flat.

We love fishing for Tarpin from The Bhia Honda Bridge (spelling?) down to Key West. We use our push pole to stake out on the edge of a flat and wait for the Tarpin to come along from the deeper water and follow the edge of the flat. We also get some great action at night with 12 weight flyrods at the Bhia Honda Bridge...the Tarpin go crazy with the incomming tide there.

You should try a flyrod, you'll never go back. If you get a good powerful Sage or Loomis 8 or 9 weight you can cast no problem on windy days and catching a 10 lb Red is a blast. We use really great small shrimp and crab patterns and boy the Reds and Specks love em.

Maybe I can stop there on my way to Key West next May with my new boat.

RB

[ 07-08-2005, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

Lone Star

07-08-2005, 07:47 AM

Hey Rod,

What a great thread! I’m getting close to painting my Fulmar (17’ Iain Oughtred day sailer) and I’m also in the Dallas area. I’ve been contemplating using Kirby’s as well. So this has been really informative. But then you really got me going when you started talking about flats boats, fishing for reds, specks, and bones… my passion. Here’s a shot from the Texas coast and also a shot from a recent trip to Abaco for some fly fishing for bonefish.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid123/pabf5f6095b352081c3753411274dffb7/f82979fe.jpg

http://coconuttelegraph.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1318&stc=1

Your boat reminds me a lot of my brother’s Weldcraft. We do quite a bit of fishing down around Rockport, Texas (in fact I’ll be heading there again in a couple weeks). I’m looking forward to hearing about your boat’s performance. I guess I’ve taken the opposite tack… I’m working on a sail boat now and my next boat will be a flats boat. I’ve looked at several flats boat designs but have not run across the one you’re building. Maybe I missed it but which design are you building? Did you consider other designs and how did you come about selecting the one you are building? Thanks, and again… great thread!

pipefitter

07-08-2005, 09:41 AM

I agree with the shallow draft vs comfortable ride for inshore fishing like that. I wasnt worried about soft ride either.Anything is a cadillac ride compared to paddling a canoe.If it gets too choppy you just go slower.Still much faster than walking or paddling. When fishing is best here there isn't much chop anyways. I am thinking in that heat one would be begging for a little chop. I like your boat better than the hewes or the maverick. I dont think you will have any problem poling it. Some of the biggest tarpon i have ever seen come up into the bay here and i lived right by Boca Grande for a good part of my life.

RodB

07-08-2005, 12:11 PM

Hey Lonestar,
I'd like to see your daysailer. You catch lots of fish for a sailor... nice catch...

Well guys, I always enjoy sharing info on my boat...

The following photos/diagrams show some detail on the design of my boat. I put together the parameters and had Tracy Obrien design it from scratch. I had him draw up both an 18' and 16' version. I designed the console myself and layed out the storage areas. I looked at many flats boats plus consulted a Jet pump expert in Houston who has since become a good friend. I wanted to set this boat up to run with a jet pump and also a prop for maximum versatility. I have layed her out to offer all the ammenities for flyfishing like 4 flyrod holders for rigged flyrods, removable flush mount trolling motor bracket, and flush mount pop up cleat at the bow and flush mount push pole brackets.

Basic lines: http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/pe30e617569402b6224a8b6a6cbf52c51/f35a56c2.jpg

My console based on a bay boat I saw...allows you to stand and see over the windshield with a wind stream projected over your head so water etc does not hit you in the face...then when you sit on the leaning post, you look through the windshield. I will also add a foot rest bar and back rest to the leaning post. The fill directly atop the fuel tank allows for using a dip stick to check fuel level in addition to a fuel gauge.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/pdbe92bbce27e92b5f31b91b204e7d935/f35a56c9.jpg

This photo illustrates the cool design of full length sheer decks that are laminated in place (3/4" square honduras mahogany) and edge nailed ...resulting in extreme stiffness and a hull that won't torque. Once the sheer decks were completed, I turned over the hull to add an additional layer of 1/4" merranti and the hull did not flex at all. . . a very stiff structure ...the sheer decks "closed the box" so to speak.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/p320da4e4e2f6dfe14983c8917549898c/f35a56d3.jpg

Heres the completed bottom, original bottom panel was 3/8" Okoume, I scarfed in place an additional layer of 1/4" Merranti (so total thickness of bottom 5/8") , then radiused and taped the chines with biaxial, then sheathed the bottom with Xynole polyester cloth... and finally two coats of epoxy with graphite powder.
Note: I used the John Henry planer/scarfer attachment on my Makita power planer for scarfing all the plywood.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/p70ec5d289c26ae82e27f47d4d62ca4f6/f35a56d6.jpg

Heres the flooring stringers and the completed cockpit sole. All panel top surfaces were glassed before installation, bottom of floor panels were double coated with epoxy. All joints here were taped with 3" fiberglass tape.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/p1148259d699398f17d12e6ae48f03b1b/f35a56db.jpg

Note tilt steering and binnacle control at same level so very slight movement of hands is required on controls. Also note custom installation of flush mount compass.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/p17148c97d495887e8a869a76950fdd5b/f35a56e3.jpg

I believe the plans for this would only cost about $75 from tracy@tracyobrien.com

RB

[ 07-09-2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

Lone Star

07-08-2005, 01:00 PM

Well... I'm not a sailor yet. Just a sail boat builder at this point. If you're interested in seeing my boat I have an album on ImageStation...

Click Here (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291501381&congratulation_page=Y)

I bonded on the outer stem and keel last weekend but haven't developed those pictures yet. The album shows progress up to the outer stem lamination.

RodB

07-08-2005, 01:20 PM

Lone Star,

Nice job! She'll be a beaut. I want to see her finished. She will look great with Kirby's.

RB

[ 07-08-2005, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

RodB

07-10-2005, 12:32 AM

Well, I had dramatically better results using a 70:30 mixture of Turps and Penetrol (a bit over 30% additive to the paint in volume) The Turps made all the difference and of course my 3" Purdy brush. I still will have to apply the final coat as I did get some drips, but I'm getting the hang of it. The paint has a much better "pot life" with Turps. I plan on rolling and tipping a coat on other parts of the boat.

Thanks to all. By the way, I painted at 7:30 PM tonight so the temp was over 85 degrees easy, probably over 90 degrees, but the paint stayed wet fine with the turps/penetrol mixture.

RB

pipefitter

07-10-2005, 03:06 AM

I was supposed to start painting this weekend but the hurricane Dennis saw to it that it wasn't to be. I guess I could paint the helm box indoors so I could say I did something to it.Was too windy/rainy to even sand my touch up primer spots.

RodB

07-11-2005, 10:24 PM

The console is the most difficult area to paint because of all the radiused corners on all sides. I have tried to end a panel's coverage at the middle of a radius so that the "break" in the paint job falls on the radius. If the paint still seems wet enough, I lightly brush along the radius corner "carefully".

I think the straight areas of the deck etc will be a cinch after painting the console three times. The topsides will be pretty straight forward too. I pretty much have the console close to being finished but still want to apply that one last perfect coat.

The paint thinned as described goes on pretty smooth but is quite thin/runny, I would prefer applying it in a much thicker form...but the coats are thin and I can just keep brushing until I get a really good final coat. At least as it is now, the paint stays wet long enough to blend together as I move along.

I'm taping off sectiions and applying ground walnut shells for non-skid now...in the cockpit floor... progress in spite of the heat.

I'm planning on rolling and tipping the topsides with a helper...just for the experience.

RB

[ 07-11-2005, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

RonW

07-13-2005, 03:13 PM

I enjoyed the fishing pictures and disscussion on fishing better then some of the know it all attitude on painting.

But unless I missed it, no one has mentioned the fact that maybe the boat is wood, but when you cover it with epoxy and cloth, you no longer are painting wood but are painting epoxy. Kirby's is a oil based wood paint designed for wood.
Maybe there is a better choice for painting epoxy. Like easy epoxy or one of the polyurethanes.Maybe the kind of paint being used should better match the type of surface being painted.

RodB

07-13-2005, 03:34 PM

Hey Ron,

From the start I knew I needed to select a good primer for avoiding any problems with paint drying and adherence... My designer suggested the base coat, high build, hot solvent primer mentioned above...you just slather in on with a brush...two coats. I used it and it works great. It sands easily to a beautiful smooth finish, offers a good barrier between the epoxy and the paint, and dries very fast. I think Tracy Obrien has used this primer for many years atop epoxy before painting...and it is a very good product.

This high build base coat is very durable and fills in many small depressions for a nice even smooth surface. I think it is ok to paint directly on epoxy if it has cured for a long time and you make sure to wash it off with an ammonia/water solution then plain water...but a good primer like this just offers several advantages like an easy attainable smooth surface, a good barrier between the epoxy and paint and avoids any paint drying problems.

I also did get some feedback on Brightsides and Petit Easypoxy not being as easy to get a nice finish compared to a good creamy Alkyd enamel...and I wanted a semi-gloss. I made my decision on paint quite a while ago based on Tracy's recommendations for a fairly easy way to get a good finish for a beginner. Although he hadn't used Kirby's he did recommend any good quality Alkyd enamel as fairly easy to roll and tip to a good finish.

RB

[ 07-13-2005, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]