Apprenticeship boat

[RyanGillnet]

Here's a question (or three). We've all poured through plans, dreamt, pondered, mulled, and got bent out of shape trying to decide what boat to build. We've asked ourselves and the forum to help us decide based upon a set of criteria regarding everything from where the boat will be used, to building difficulty, to good looks. So here's a new set of requirements to think over:

Lets assume that the boat will never be launched. :eek: Lets think of this as your apprenticeship into wooden boatbuilding. There aren't any size limits, use requirements, or aesthetic considerations. The only goal is to REALLY learn the boatbuilder's craft. What would you build? Pick two: one traditional, one, well, not-so-traditional.

To all the forumites making a living building and restoring: if a young pup showed up at your shop, and you took that pup under your wing to teach him/her your craft, what would the single boat be that you would have him build? If she showed up at your door with a boat on a trailer as a resume, what would you want to see?

Remember, we're building to learn the craft. The boat doesn't need to fill any particular 'useful' requirements. Heck, I guess it doesn't even really need to float. (is that still a boat?) So, what would you build or have that kid build?

R

[mike hanyi]

Build the WB skiff, a great simple starter boat that you can actually get done- Dont take on something that you cant see the light at the end of the tunnel on your first boat, your confidence will remain high if the project is realistic, I have seen too many bite off too much just to get depressed from trial and errors and not seeing the reward (a finished boat) If it was rewarding you can always choose your second project more challanging.

Mike
Kuggom Boatbuilding School
Finland

[Thorne]

Sounds totally wrong from the get-go to me -- a boat that won't float? If you want to teach people about boats, the finished product needs to float.

[RyanGillnet]

I like your hat Thorne. :)

Ok, the not floating comment was just to make a point about this build just being about the building. Learning skills and techniques. Of course we want the end result to be a boat, but the question is more along the lines of 'would you build a Lumberyard Skiff or a Friendship Sloop to gain an education?' Nevermind that you don't want, won't use, or don't like, the particular design.

Maybe this was a bad thing to start... :o

[RyanGillnet]

I should also mention that this isn't relating to me, specifically. Just a hypothetical.

[Uncle Duke]

The only goal is to REALLY learn the boatbuilder's craft. What would you build? Pick two...
I think that there a couple of problems with the question, though more experienced people than I will have better comments.
First - I'm not sure that anyone can really learn the boatbuilder's craft with just one or two boats. My understanding is that to really learn the craft takes years. So the question then becomes "what can really be learned in the first two boats?" - and this is where smart people should chime in.;)
My guess would be that you could learn some lofting as well as how to construct framework (keel, keelson, stem, transom, frames, etc) and plank it (carvel or strip). Not the fancy stuff, just the basics - and probably you'd learn how but not much why.
Second - I think it might make a difference if you were to define what kind of boat is of interest. The skills needed for a nice runabout are different than the skills for a heavy displacement ocean cruiser. (Again, smart people needed here....).
Last - it makes a difference what kind of construction methods you want to learn. Carvel vs cold-molded vs strip planked vs stitch-and- glue, etc., are each specialties and I think it would take at least 2 boats to learn any one of them.
So - can you narrow the question?
Just my $0.02....

[mike hanyi]

Well I got an opinion just like something else everyone else has.

If it was a first boat I would tend to stay away from glue boats(epoxy construction) its just not so rewarding playing with the goo and mess and drips and the woops with the ratios and the sanding -Its just work and not as pleasurable compared with working with hand tools and proper fastners,

My first boat was a 2 chine boat built upsidedown on laminated frames, the plank seems were were battoned and the keel was inner and outer,
screwed together. all in all it was a rewarding experence and it looked perfect when it was done with really high compliments= good morale

so I guess I could say this type was a good first boat that was a bit more challanging then a lumberyard.

The bresthook was probably the most difficult piece.

mike

[Thorne]

I agree with Mike, in theory the WB Lumberyard skiff would give a beginner a good taste of the skills needed for trad boatbuilding.

[RyanGillnet]

I guess I'm learning my lesson about broad questions here on the forum... :o

Maybe if I answer my own question: I happen to be interested in traditional building. I have an interest in learning carvel planking, and I'd like to learn lofting. As an example, I think that if I were to go about building a Mackinaw Boat to the plans available from our host, I would learn a great deal about building a traditional wooden boat. The learning curve would be high, mistakes would be made. I think it would be a good education, even though a Mackinaw Boat really isn't the best pick if you factor in where I live, what I'd use the boat for, etc.

My brother couldn't care less for traditional methods. I asked him this question and his answer was that if he was going to take the time to learn boat building full time he'd want to learn about cold-molding or plywood construction. 'So which boat would you pick to educate yourself on?' I asked. He mentioned a small dinghy that didn't require lofting designed for cold-molding and some big plywood Bolger design.

My 79 year old grandfather wants to build a 45' schooner. Never mind that we live in Pennsylvania. :)

So what do you want to learn and what boat would you pick to educate yourself on? It might be your first build, or your tenth. Thorne, maybe you're interested in building a Viking longboat without nails? You'd get to buy a new hat. ;)

[Green Boat]

When I took a evening course in boat building at the NSCC we built a small 10'er called the Fisher Boy. It was simple enough for a beginner and I learnt some very good skills whilst doing it. Plywood over sawn frames. Very nice little boat, sadly I never had a chance to see it in the water, but still a smart looking boat.

[Garth Jones]

I agree with Uncle Duke. Having built a Ness Yawl - a glued lap plywood boat, I'd say I've learned a heck of a lot about building that sort of boat. She's great -and what I wanted in a daysailer, but building her did not come close to a complete education in boat building. What I've learned:

1. I know how to build a glued lap hull - my second one would be MUCH better! Making stems, keelsons, etc. seems generally applicable.
2. I can fit all sorts of interior pieces to a hull (CB trunk, deck beams, etc. etc.). That would translate very well to any other boat construction method especially since most of the parts are solid wood, not ply.
3. I now have some experience with spars, rigging, hardware choices, etc. that would good with any other small daysailer and definitely not a big cruising boat.

In all, the Ness Yawl was a great introduction to boat building, but not a master course. If you really want to build a carvel planked boat, that's great, just find one that's not too big or has a complicated hull form and go to it. But whatever you chose, make sure it's a boat that you love, since you're going to spend several hundred hours of your like on it, no matter how simple it is.

Hope this helps,
Garth

[ishmael]

Interesting question. The first boat I built was the standard apprentice boat at the MMM Apprenticeshop. Called a Susan, I can't remember the designer. Flat bottom, lapstrake pine or cedar sides, and a caulked bottom. Building it gave a pretty good range of skills. I was a complete beginner, and what I learned was a good start. I think it's still a standard boat in Rockport.

I love the Zimmer(?) Mackinaw, partly because I spent time as a kid around Mackinaw Island, but it's a fairly big project. Maybe the Catspaw for what you are after? Building a boat like the Mackinaw. Not having a place to use it is going to cut into the enthusiasm factor, but hey, it'd do the trick. Just make sure it's love and not infatuation. One of our regular posters, Mr. Left, built a Catspaw and can give you all kinds of advice.

Best of luck.

[OEX]

[/URL]
Here is my 2 cents. This will not be a surprise coming from me. Restore an old boat in need of just about everything...... Why?
-- You will see how it fits before making a new one
--- You can see mistakes and the result--rot, frame breaks, etc--the "that's why they did it that way"
-- you will do everything twice---take it out, make a new and or improve it.
-- you will learn why building new might be easier next time, but might not feel the same for good or bad.
-- you will save a boat in need (plug here for WBRF)
-- you will, by the end, have a very clear idea as to what boat you would like to build new and what construction type.

cheers, Bruce
[URL="http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/"]www.woodenboatrescue.org (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org)

[RyanGillnet]

Hey Bruce. Brilliant response. And a great plug for WBRF. I really hadn't thought of the restoration route, and I bet quite a few others hadn't as well. Everything you say makes sense. Thanks for the post.

[Salted Nuts]

I agree 100% with you Bruce. My only question is where do you get the lofting experience when restoring?
I would like to think if I were to build, I would build a decent model of my dream boat first. Of course if your dream boat is a 10footer, probably no point in making the model but if larger, you would then have something to refer back to. Just a thought...

[kentjw]

I agree with a restoration first. How about a Beetle Cat. Plenty of them around that need fixin'. Parts and advice easily available.

[Thorne]

I've always thought that if someone is planning on building a larger boat, they should build their dinghy first. This gives them experience in many things, including a reality-check on the time and tools it takes to build boats.

[TerryLL]

Okay, I'll bite on this one.

Since the premise here is that boatbuilding skill is the desired outcome, here is the strategy I would recommend, and have used myself over 40 years of trying to learn the art.

1. Pick a design that is seriously challanging, but not impossible.
2. Build a model at 1.5 inches to the foot.
3. Build the real thing if time and money permit.

My first boat was a 32" model of the Beachcomber-Alpha dory from Gardner's Dory book, followed soon thereafter by the real thing, built batten-seam in ply-epoxy. The real boat was a lot easier than the model.

My last boat was a 42" lapstrake skiff, steamed frames in cherry, planked in spruce (also steamed) copper-fastened. I have no plans to build the real boat, but the skill is there now if I need it.

The best, Terry