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Another One
03-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Okay, so I'm only a scot (and a scott) by marriage, but will someone please inform the rest of the American population that scots are not at all the same as irish? And will someone please explain to me why I keep getting scottish-based jokes labeled with things like "Happy St. Patrick's Day"? A basic geography / history lesson seems to be in order.

Oh, and I understand that Ice Bowling is not necessarily a beacon for the more sensible pillars of society, (http://www.sheboygan-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007703170537 ) but I fail to see why a guy would show up in full highland dress to mingle with the dozens of blinky green tiaras, green and white hats and other pseudo irish wear.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:mRSmcSgClCCARM:http://www.johnnyamerica.net/archives/spbeermughat.jpg

Just my thought for the day.

Jami

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 12:29 PM
Scots wear clothing with no zipper...

pss. I'm a Scot and I can say this without getting yelled at...

Another One
03-19-2007, 12:33 PM
Exactly. You'd think that someone who owned (or at least had access to) an 8 yard kilt, sporran, flashes, the whole kit, would know that it doesn't have much to do with an irish-american holiday. Unless of course he regularly dresses that way - but if so, he really would have stood out before now in a small primarily dutch/german area.

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 12:37 PM
You should see my derk.. No one messes with me regardless as to what I am wearing...
And as any Scot would know, a dirk without a pair of matching forks and knives for eating at someone else's castle just isn't a Scot.

Damn, I wish hat I had found a place in NS to replace the bagpipes that were stolen..

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 12:43 PM
The Irish raise and produce potatoes. The Scot raise and produce sheep. Sheep eat potatoes.
Then again, they will eat anything...

Another One
03-19-2007, 12:46 PM
http://www.kilberry.com/

I understand the inventor of the bagpipes was inspired when he saw a man carrying an indignant, asthmatic pig under his arm. Unfortunately, the man-made object never equalled the purity of sound achieved by the pig.
-Alfred Hitchcock

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 12:50 PM
Are ya nuts? No Scot in his right mind, even after a few drams would ever consider owning a PIG...

Bloody heck.. I think I've been insulted... Gotta think..
Leave it to the Fin.. to .........

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-19-2007, 12:54 PM
The Irish and the Scots do have one significant thing in common... they both liked killing Englishmen. My family is border Scot. Always fighting with someone.

Has anyone noticed the popular reemergence of the Scottish nationalists? There is some fear by the English that they may win the next election... Hmmm I wonder if there is a ancestor of Robert the Bruce out there...:D

Another One
03-19-2007, 12:55 PM
All in fun, Jamie. :) Personally, I enjoy a good bagpipe band. But I did find a website dedicated to humorously insulting the bagpipes and anyone who cared to play them.

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 12:55 PM
1701.. umm.. 1701.. A day that will live in infamy...

Hey, Jami.. if I can't laugh and tease myself and my culture.. well then heck.
I've got knobby knees, a gray beard... etc. I have no problems with ribbing myslef or my heritage.
Never fear...
I still get a kick out of the Boston Brahine ( sp.. because I don't really care )crowd marrying a Jew and producing moi.. Boy do I get a kick outta that.
So.. bring it on...

Popeye
03-19-2007, 01:00 PM
i like it when a good bagpipe band falls off a high cliff and hit the jagged rocks below

they make a funny weezing sound on the way down and kind of a big blatt sound at the bottom

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 01:02 PM
Popeye, they art just having trouble with the " grace notes ". Don't hold that against them..

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 01:16 PM
A Scot is standing in line behnd a Rabbi. Both are looking for tickets to a NYC city show. Average price is 100.00 dollars.. Prime seats are 175.00 each.
The rabbi gets to the counter and asks for 40 tickets for the best seats at 175.00 each... He gets them, pays for them and leaves..

The Scot comes up to the counter and the woman asks whether she could help. The Scot goes through his bag, looks up and says " No thank you, I think I have already seen the show."

umn I'm glad I am both jewish and scot...

Bob Cleek
03-19-2007, 01:47 PM
I think the Scots, the Brits, the Welsh and the Irish were pretty much all cut from the same cloth until the Saxons moved in. Another example of what a lax immigration policy can do to a people!

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 01:50 PM
Bob..no no no...
The Scots can not and should not be placed in the same category as the Irish or the Welsh,, Shame on you!!!
I'm gonna fling my kilt in your face.. me friend... Not that close a friend but a friend...LOL...

1745.. live on!!!!!

and Prince Charles is the umm what of Whales? Us Scots would never have accepted that even after 1701...
I wear a kilt in defiance.. in defiance....No gov. is gonna tell me that I can't wear a skirt...

A piece of paper.., wow.. The real Scots never gave up!!!

John B
03-19-2007, 02:09 PM
Wasn't the first Scot an Irishman?

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 02:11 PM
I'm dying.. I'm dying...
Ah the insults.. the insults... brought to you by one of those non Scots...

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-19-2007, 02:19 PM
As the first actual Scot to post on this thread - I'd like to say that some of the Irish are fine people (there are others I've not met) - likewise the welsh and some of the cornish.

But for raw paranoia nothing beats Rutland.

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 02:22 PM
And what the heck. I an actual Scot? I wear a kilt, ( family tartan ) have knobby knees... I like haggis, used to play the bagpipes...
what the blazes do you want?

Another One
03-19-2007, 02:33 PM
What's yoru clan tartan, Jamie? Just curious.

Jami

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 02:41 PM
Jami

Umm, I'll try to post the tartan.. but JOHNSTON(E) as in my last name.. lol...
I like the ancient.. not that color makes a difference... It's the threads and the pattern.
And if I could ever look reasonable.. fairly decent, kinda cute, I'm probably wearing a kilt.
But I ain't going there.

huisjen
03-19-2007, 03:15 PM
Ancient Johnstone Tartan:

http://www.scotlandshop.net/images/swatches/ijk/johnstone-ancient.jpg

I've seen worse. For instance, Katey is a subset of Buchanan, which is a bit loud.

Dan

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 03:17 PM
What do you mean you have seen worse? I mean this tartan is BEAUTIFUL..
Better than any Finnish tartan I have ever seen.. LOL...

Another One
03-19-2007, 03:20 PM
Here's Clan Scott (well, one of them):
http://www.scotclans.com/img/IB-Wool-tartans/ScottBrown_mod.jpg

And Buchanan:

http://www.scotclans.com/img/IB-Wool-tartans/Buchanan_anc.jpg

halflin
03-19-2007, 03:21 PM
Hi Guys, from a snowy Strathspey, contrary to most opinions, there are some differences between us Scots and the Irish, we drink whisky
(The Macallan preferably) the Irish ,if they're not on the guinness ,drink
whiskey!
We have our kilts and family tartans, but the Irish also wear a kilt .
in a neat grey plaid.
The main difference this week tho ' was they beat us at the rugby by 1 point. Murrayfield was a sea of jubilant Irish faces as we tried to sneak away un-noticed. But don't take my word for it come and check out the "differences" for yourselves.

huisjen
03-19-2007, 03:22 PM
Jamie, you know we have a brother in Finnland, and Finnish nephews. But the brother is mostly a pompus ass. Please, bash the Finns all you care to. :D

Dan

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 03:22 PM
Nope.. glad I am a Johnston... I like mine a lot more...
Again, the colors don't mean a thing but those colors hurt the eyes.
I look good in a kilt. Without the kilt and the tartan, well, it is just me...
And Dan calls mine umm.. for lack of a better term, okay...

pss. Don't ya just love families Dan...?

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 03:26 PM
Not just whiskey.. whiskey spelled Glenfiddich...

paladin
03-19-2007, 03:30 PM
Now folks....didn't the Irish join the Scots to help stomp eddie longlegs or sumthin........and my grandpappy on my daddies side sed that the Saxons or Normans never managed to whup 'em(the welsh) in a fight...they couldn't catch 'em....

Tom Montgomery
03-19-2007, 03:32 PM
Montgomery: Norman, Scottish, Irish.

My grandfather Thomas N. Montgomery was a presbyterian born and raised in Belfast. He emigrated to the U.S.A, in the early 1900's. I recently met an Irish emigrant living here in Louisville who told me he knew lots of Montgomery's in Belfast.

http://www.scotlandshop.net/images/swatches/m%20200x200/montgomery-mod-200.jpg
Roger de Montgomery followed William the Conqueror to England in 1066. He was the Regent of Normandy and given the Earldom of Arundel in Southern England. The county of Montgomery is named after him. Robert de Montgomery was the first of the family to come to Scotland with the first High Steward of Scotland as part of his staff under the reign of Scottish King David I. His descendant John Montgomerie of Eaglesham was the distinguished warrior who captured Henry Percy called Hotspur at the Battle of Otterburn in 1388. The clan became established in the lowlands of Scotland. Sir John Montgomery captured Sir Henry Percey (called Hotspur) in the battle of Otterburn in 1388. Percey was Ransomed and the money was used to build Polnoon Castle. He married Elizabeth de Eglington and obtained the lands of Eglington and Ardrossan.And the Normans were the Vikings (North Men) who settled northern France. Grandfather Montgomery married Hannah Lundahl -- a Swede -- in Philadelphia. And so we come full circle....

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 03:33 PM
Naw.. you got it backwards.. The Irish screamed for help.. the Scots rolled up their kilts and threw them over their shoulders and said, " okay , we like a good fight! "... "We can wear blue, we can scream, and we can put up one heck of a fight. We will be there... but we ain't gonna live on potatoes."
Now that is the real story...

John B
03-19-2007, 03:34 PM
Border Scots here too( a component) Porteous family.
and Irish,Ryan.
and northern English , Bertenshaw.and southern English Waymouth, and etc etc.

But back to my statement/question... wasn't the 'first' Scot family Irish. thats what I was told. Serious question.

halflin
03-19-2007, 03:35 PM
Youv'e mispelt Whisky again, Glenfiddich is distilled and bottled 20 miles from us in Dufftown, if you want to include the "e" you must go across the sea!

Take my advice... buy a few more bottles and check out the labels,

This shall help to keep our economy nice and bouyant.

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 03:36 PM
John.. I really don't know...

John B
03-19-2007, 03:58 PM
here ya go,

http://www.magoo.com/hugh/scotskings.html

"The Scots were originally the Irish of Ulster, some of whom moved to Argyll. The Scoti of Scotland came from Ireland. "Scotus" was the Latin word for Irishman—or at least the tribes in and near the northern part of county Antrim, and probably all of northeastern Ulster. The tribes of Ireland in Ulster, especially the the Dal Riada, gave Scotland its name:

"Dal Riada - in descent from Cairbre Rioghfhoda (Ríada), son of Conaire, in the line of Heremon. Dal Riata was the tribal and territorial name of the early tribes of County Antrim, particularly the northeast portion. The area later known as the Route (Rúta), in northern co. Antrim, is often equated with the Dal Riada. The Dal Riada extended their kingdom into Scotland probably during the 3rd to the 7th centuries. The early term that the Romans referred to these and other tribes from Ireland was the "Scoti", thus the legend of where Scotland received its name." Ancient Uladh—Kingdom of Ulster, from Ireland's History in Maps."

etc etc . quite a good read.

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 04:01 PM
The old saying.. "Go west young man, go west!" Ireland is west of Scotland. I can't imagine anyone would want to backtrack.
So, not sure whether John's post/C&P holds true here.

Scots came first.. Then Ireland, then St. Patrick..

John B
03-19-2007, 04:13 PM
Ahh, the egyptian swimmer raises his head once more.....

John E Hardiman
03-19-2007, 04:21 PM
But back to my statement/question... wasn't the 'first' Scot family Irish. thats what I was told. Serious question.

John B is sorta correct here. The original inhabtants of Scotia were Picts, like the welsh small and dark. When the goths pushed the franks out of the rhine basin into the gealic lands, that pushed the celta-iberians out the country and they went to Ireland. After that some got into trouble with the high king and were forced to emmegrate (BTW a "scot" is a payment made to wronged party hence the term to "get off scot free"). The scots that settled in among the picts were taller and fairer and began to intermarry. Next the Danes showed up and began rading the coast. The Scots formed a centeral government ~700 under Maclombe Clanmore, thus ensuring that scotland was spared the Anglo-Saxon invasion. The scots king was historically elected by "the eight great earls" which retained their own rights, forming the basis for all the following internal wars, fighting, and problems with the English. With the arrival of William Rufus, some of the earls invited some Anglo-Norman across the border which makes the lowland scots distenct from the mid-land scots which are differnet from the highland scots. (BTW, the scots economy was dependant on cattle and horses until the '15, i.e. there where very few sheep. Sheep were introduced to supply english woolen mills, they were not indiginiously raised).

John B
03-19-2007, 04:23 PM
another little c and p ( how unusual of you John... Yes you're right, I don't often do it, do you always speak to yourself, you know what that means ,.. yes, actually I do from time to time.)

"In the time of Ptolemy, the Scoti occupied much of Ulster, including (some say) county Monaghan. Ultimately, the Romans used the word Scotia to refer to all of Ireland (Roman writers referrred to Ireland both as Scotia and Hibernia.), and Scoti to refer to all Irishmen. Early in the first millennium, the community of Dal Riada included both the north and northeast part of what is now county Antrim in Ireland and what is now county Argyll in Scotland"

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 04:23 PM
Ah yes.. but did the Pics ( and you are correct ) move east to west or west to east? Ireland is west.. Scotland is east of Ireland. Hence, Scots were there first.. got tired and decided to head west. and discovered a potato field waiting for the blight.... makes sense to me.. LOL...

John B
03-19-2007, 04:33 PM
a small diversion you reminded me of Jamie.

friends who have just shifted from the city have bought this wee Irish dog terrier unit , ugly little mother that it is, as part of the whole shift to the country coast get jobs and live a lifestyle the polar opposite to the one they had thing.

So there we are on the beach after meeting up on our christmas cruise ,with this ugly dang pup that cost $1500 buckaroos ( 1500 !!) and they want a name for it.. one with an irish connotation.

" Potatoe!" says Sue.

So the whole evening and subsequent evenings .. and even months later, and its irish accent noight with " well, oil be wonderin how Potatayyyyto is to be sure" etc etc.

would ye be interested in lookin at the spud?
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pab4fd0da6d08fb1c1ee9df1f1e3cbeab/ea4179ca.jpg
because there he is over on the right.:rolleyes:

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 04:38 PM
John.. my father bought one of those for my mother back in 1988... Told us the pooch was sold by the ounce.. I think he was right.
Mother died in 1994.. dog still alive..
Dad remarried at 85. Dog was best pooch at the wedding.. Kids not invited or did not know about this.
Dad died in 03. Pooch was a pall bearer...
Pooch became deaf. not that he ever listened and blind as a bat...
Step mother finally put him down at Christmas 06...
The bloody door stop was 18!!!!!

Yowza...

Vince Brennan
03-19-2007, 04:40 PM
(BTW, the scots economy was dependant on cattle and horses until the '15, i.e. there w(h)ere very few sheep. Sheep were introduced to supply english woolen mills, they were not indiginiously raised).

Is it true, then, that kilts were introduced soon after the sheep? (It's very good hearing they're after having, I've been told.):eek:

And we spell it "whisky" too.... we just leave out the auld rubber tyres. (Seriously, McCallan's is wonderous stuff although I'll pass on the Laphroaig.)

:D

Claidheamhan mòr at five paces? :D:D

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 04:42 PM
Vince.. read my first post.. that should conVINCE you.. LOL.

Vince Brennan
03-19-2007, 04:43 PM
My baaaaaahd.

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 04:44 PM
EWE!!!!

mmd
03-19-2007, 04:48 PM
http://www.gov.ns.ca/playground/images/tartan.jpg

Nova Scotian tartan...now, that's beautiful! <wink>

The blue and white in the tartan stand for the sea, the greens represent the forests, red is for the royal lion on the Shield of Arms, and gold for the province's historic Royal Charter.

John B
03-19-2007, 04:49 PM
The owner of the dog is a Newfie ( another completely gratuitous piece of information)

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 04:49 PM
Geez.. mmd. I spent a month in NS. All I could find were german descendants.. Not a Scot in sight... nSo, I guess this tartan doesn't sell well.

mmd
03-19-2007, 04:51 PM
Wrong neighbourhood...

...all the Scots gravitated to the hills of Cape Breton & surrounding areas.

http://www.johnwalshbagpipes.com (Antigonish)

Vince Brennan
03-19-2007, 04:54 PM
EWE!!!!

:o smiling sheepishly...

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 04:55 PM
mmd.. Those damn'd railroad tracks get in the way...

mmd
03-19-2007, 05:01 PM
Oh, man! If you found railroad tracks in Lunenburg County, I want some of what you're drinkin'! (They tore up the HS&W (Horribly Slow & Wobbly... er, Halifax South & West) rails in the early '80's.)

P.S.- look closely at my avatar... yep, NS tartan suspenders!

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 05:03 PM
Propeller on a good day.. Cranberry juice on a bad one.
No, didn't find any railroad tracks regardless.. but I still could not find any Scots in Lunenburg...

John E Hardiman
03-19-2007, 05:19 PM
Is it true, then, that kilts were introduced soon after the sheep? (It's very good hearing they're after having, I've been told.):eek:


I'll ignore the sheep joke.

The plaid (pronounced play-e-d) predates the kilt (a Dutch word for pleated or folded BTW). Scots dress was a linen leine, or shirt, that reached the knees, and a plaid (the name which means blanket, tartan is the cloth patterning) which is combination cloak and blanket that was belted around the waist. The proper term for a plaid worn as an outer garment is a feileadh-beag or feileadh-mor depending on the size (i.e. wether is has a boodle or not). The feileadh-beag was specifically outlawed after the '45, and when it was re-introduced by the POW in 1803, it was made in the modern form so as to have cleaner lines and not require re-pleating every time you wanted to wear it.

Note two things. 1) paintings and movies be damned, you did not fight in your plaid, you dropped it and fought in your leine. 2) there was no concept of "clan" tartans untill after the re-introduction of highland dress in 1803. While you could tell where a man was from by the colour (i.e. natural dyes) and sett (pattern) of his tartan, that was only identified with local styles, not an individual family.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-19-2007, 06:48 PM
Two Scotsmen come across a group of German soliders sleeping in their trench. The one Scot whispers to his friend..."Should we shoot them now or wait to take them prisoner?" His friend replies " Nah, lets wake them up and start a fight!"

Whats the difference between a Scotsman and a Rolling Stone?

A Rolling Stone says " Hey You! Get off of my cloud!"
A Scotsman says "Hey Mcleod! Get off of my ewe!"

JimM
03-19-2007, 06:57 PM
The one thing all Scots should be greatful for is that Irish monks taught the Scots how to make Whiskey. Though the Scots never learned to distill their whiskey three time like Irish whiskey. An impatent lot.

Cuyahoga Chuck
03-19-2007, 07:17 PM
Enough of this folderal (sic).
Fortunately or unfortunately, ( I am only a neutral observer) a lot of "Irish" had Sottish ancestors. At least I've been told that.
Around here we had a whole bunch of Greenhorns who originated in County Mayo. Can't get more Irish than that. One married a friend of mine. Her surname was "McDonald". In my ignorance I asked her about it. "Oh, we are Scots-Irish". I hadn't a clue what she was talking about.
Dated a pretty Greenhorn lady from Akyll (sic) Island. Prettiest date I ever had. She loved the sauce more than anything. I hope she found her way to the "Pioneers" but I don't know for sure.

S.V. Airlie
03-19-2007, 07:48 PM
1802 or 1803..
So, where does the ancient tartans come in?
From what I understand, the ancient Johnston tartan was discovered by archeologists or what have you in a bog where a battle was fought between Johnstons ( I guess ) and another clan in the 1300s. Being a bog, those that died were fairly well preserved as were the dress they were wearing. Hence, a new color.. not a new plaid was discovered.
Don't burst my bubble.. It sounds good.

and wasn't highland dress outlawed in 1745 and not back in favor until Queen Victoria.. 1837-1901.. 1802 sounds way outta line here.

clancy
03-19-2007, 08:58 PM
Damn, I wish hat I had found a place in NS to replace the bagpipes that were stolen..

You should know by now that the majority of pipes sold in North America are imported through Kearny, NJ.

Bruce Hooke
03-19-2007, 09:33 PM
I've got a bit of Highland Scots in my background in the form of some Ferguson ancestors.

I think the Ferguson tartan is rather distinguished looking:

http://www.jhiggins.net/tartan/Images/tar_ferguson_mod.jpg

(from http://www.jhiggins.net/tartan/tartanfinder/tartans_farquharson-fergus.html )

However, I should say that most of my ancestors came from the south of England, from Bristol among other places.

Pagie
03-19-2007, 09:52 PM
The Irish sold the bagpipes to the Scots but the Scots haven't seen the joke of it yet. And proper Whiskey is spelt this way. That stuff from Scotland people put Coke in to make it taste better.

JimM
03-19-2007, 10:56 PM
England invaded Ireland and Scotland. About the time of Henry 8th the Irish and Scots were forced off their land. The Irish being Catholic were not allowed to won land, practice their religon ect. The Scots that lost their land in Scotland were forced to move to Ireland and became tenant farmer for the English landowners. They were trusted because they were not catholic. The English miscalculated since the Scots hated the English as much as the Irish.

These Scots where moved mostly to Norther Iserland (Ulster) but also to other communities. The Ulster Scots-Irish were the first group of Irish emegrents to leave for America and since they hated the English a large number of the Scot-Irish fought in the Revolution. They were also the pioneers that opened Kentucky/Tennesse. The Irish catholics didn't come to American in any numbers until the Potato Blight of the 1840's.

John E Hardiman
03-19-2007, 10:58 PM
1802 or 1803..
So, where does the ancient tartans come in?
From what I understand, the ancient Johnston tartan was discovered by archeologists or what have you in a bog where a battle was fought between Johnstons ( I guess ) and another clan in the 1300s. Being a bog, those that died were fairly well preserved as were the dress they were wearing. Hence, a new color.. not a new plaid was discovered.
Don't burst my bubble.. It sounds good.

and wasn't highland dress outlawed in 1745 and not back in favor until Queen Victoria.. 1837-1901.. 1802 sounds way outta line here.

The modern term "ancient" tartan just refers to using muted looking natural dyes (such as woad and heather along with natural black and white for Johnston....don't ask about the yellow...;) ). As I said earlier the idea of a "clan tartan" is modern, the setts are old. Johnston is of the "check with overchecks" family of tartans, the second oldest. That means that they are the easiest to set up on the loom and weave the pattern. As everone from a local area or village most likely saw each others patterns and the dyes were local to an area, it is almost certainty that plaids woven in the same area looked similiar. This does not mean that everone was a member of a certian clan, but rather that the clan was dressed alike because that was what was available.

Yes, I went and looked it up, and 1803 is too early. The real date is the summer of 1822 and King George IV's visit to Scotland. Well orchestrated by his friend, Sir Walter Scott, getting the King into a kilt was a great coup (the act against highland dress being repealed in 1782 after 36 years). Indeed, all "clan" tartans date from this visit, as all the chiefs, eager to catch the eye on a King noted for a short attention span, need to get a tartan that stood out. The problem was, that there were only a few setts being woven at the time after being against the law for so long, and most cloth being woven in English mills instead on local hand looms. At this time the two Allen brothers, a pair of English hucksters who eventually passed themselves off as "gentlemen" from Poland related to Bonny Prince Charlie. they published the Vestiarium Scoticum and The Costume of the Clans...in both of which would "research" and place the "true" clan tartan....for a price. Some truely horrid setts can be traced to these two men.

Paul Fitzgerald
03-19-2007, 11:57 PM
The owner of the dog is a Newfie ( another completely gratuitous piece of information)

We had one of those dogs years ago, it was called Fleabag.

Whats the difference between Welshman and an Irishman?
The Welshman's ancestors couldn't swim.

So if the Welsh went to Ireland, and the Irish went to Scotland, the Scots should be good swimmers.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 03:49 AM
Maybe this should be in the "Differences-USA" thread but...why do so many Americans identify as Scots, Irish, Italian etc., when they were born in the USA and have American citizenship?
My forebears a couple of generations ago came from Scotland and England and while it's been interesting to see where they came from and to meet my Scottish and English relatives, they think of me as an Australian, so do I and so did my parents.
There are a few Scots who are quite bemused by American tourists claiming to be "Scots", but the Tartan industry (a fine example of Scottish cunning) is too profitable for them to say anything impolite about it.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 06:19 AM
steve...
In the US, we all come from somewhere else. And yes, many who have come have assimulated. However, this does not mean we do not appreciate, respect, or, on occasion, celebrate our various heritages.
The difference with many immigrants now is the emphasis on their willingness to assimulate and still maintain their cultural differences and backgrounds. Many seem to have this concept reversed. We have to assimulate to theirs.

John Hardiman... Thanks for that post. I found that extremely interesting and informative.
I agree that the ancient tartans are lighter due to the dyes.. makes sense... And I have seen various shades used on various Johnston kilts ranging from the modern to the ancient. I think there are actually four listed if one wants to buy one. All slightly different.

LeeG
03-20-2007, 06:57 AM
http://www.utilikilts.com/

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 06:58 AM
steve...
In the US, we all come from somewhere else. And yes, many who have come have assimulated. However, this does not mean we do not appreciate, respect, or, on occasion, celebrate our various heritages.
The difference with many immigrants now is the emphasis on their willingness to assimulate and still maintain their cultural differences and backgrounds. Many seem to have this concept reversed. We have to assimulate to theirs.Everyone in Oz came from somewhere else too...around 30% of the population of Sydney was either born overseas or their parents were and yet it's virtually universal for Aussies to describe themselves as just that...'Australian".
If we're born here, we're Australian and nothing else. It isn't that we don't appreciate our backgrounds. Most Australians are of Anglo-Celtic ancestry and IIRC, Britain is one of the most popular travel destinations for us, but we carry Australian passports,the Brits think of us as Australian and so do we, generally.
I've never heard anyone here describe themselves as Scottish or German or Greek or whatever, just because their ancestors came from those countries.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-20-2007, 07:01 AM
Some very recent genetic work has shown up that there is almost no difference between the English, Irish, Welsh and Scots. Needless to say, since this nugget of scientific fact runs counter to centuries of politics and religion, not to mention the heritage industry, it will probably be ignored.

JimD
03-20-2007, 07:07 AM
They sure know how to make dogs in Ireland:

http://www.windhundwelt.de/images/!!irish-wolfhound-095.jpg

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 07:08 AM
steve..
Of course I am an American. And of course I have a US passport, and am considered to be an American first. Perhaps here, the difference is being an American is a given. Being of say Scottish descent and being proud of it is the icing on the cake. It is because I am an American, I can tout my ancestery.
And this includes ethnic foods, dress, Scottish games, March 17th,
Where else other than say Ireland does one and can one celebrate Mar. 17th.

Bruce Hooke
03-20-2007, 07:11 AM
Everyone in Oz came from somewhere else too...around 30% of the population of Sydney was either born overseas or their parents were and yet it's virtually universal for Aussies to describe themselves as just that...'Australian".
If we're born here, we're Australian and nothing else. It isn't that we don't appreciate our backgrounds. Most Australians are of Anglo-Celtic ancestry and IIRC, Britain is one of the most popular travel destinations for us, but we carry Australian passports,the Brits think of us as Australian and so do we, generally.
I've never heard anyone here describe themselves as Scottish or German or Greek or whatever, just because their ancestors came from those countries.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that so many Americans identify themselves as being from some other place. I don't think I've ever met anyone who was born here who does not think of themselves first as an American and only secondarily as a German or Norwegian or whatever.

That said, as an American I am very glad that people here have held onto some of the cultural traditions and connections because I think it makes for a much richer country.

JimD
03-20-2007, 07:11 AM
The Scottish version:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Deerhound_305.jpg/645px-Deerhound_305.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Deerhound_305.jpg)

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 07:21 AM
I'm not sure where you got the idea that so many Americans identify themselves as being from some other place. For starters...posts#2and #4 in this thread.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 07:24 AM
Well, that be me steve...And I just happen to be proud that I am an American of Scots/Russian/English/Dutch and who knows descent.

And I am sorry for you steve for not having much interest in your heritage and family history. You miss out.

An American!!!

JimD
03-20-2007, 07:49 AM
Barney is an Irish name, isn't it?

http://www.kqed.org/about/newsevents/images/barney.jpg

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 07:51 AM
I think it is spelled Blarney.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 07:56 AM
Well, that be me steve...And I just happen to be proud that I am an American of Scots/Russian/English/Dutch and who knows descent.

And I am sorry for you steve for not having much interest in your heritage and family history. You miss out.

An American!!!Actually...I am quite interested in my family history. On one side I can trace my English ancestors back to 1066,in direct line of descent , and on the other side (the Scottish side), back to the 15th century. My maternal family name indicates much longer residence in Scotland. I spent about a year or so in the land of my ancestors, two of whom are buried at Culloden.
That doesn't ,in any way,make me either Scottish or English.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 07:58 AM
Don't worry steve. Queen Victoria really wasn't THAT English.

And I certainly can't go back to 1066. Records were a wee tad scanty back then unless you were royalty. And even there, I have some doubts as to direct lines.. I'm thinking of the Romanov line.. I've got questions about some paternal lineages especially in the 18th ( late ) and early 19th centuries.

JimD
03-20-2007, 08:06 AM
Here's Barney's castle. Apparently you can kiss Barney's stone there. Although I don't know why you would want to:

http://www.lookintoireland.com/blaIMG_4404mod1.jpg

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 08:07 AM
I hear there is a bottle of listerine.. or good Irish Whiskey to the right of the stone.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 08:09 AM
Well, that be me steve...And I just happen to be proud that I am an American of Scots/Russian/English/Dutch and who knows descent.Are you....'Dutch" too?

(couldn't resist that one!)

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 08:13 AM
seems so... I have not read the biography of the guy But it is out there.
Alexander Bryan Johnson ( on the cover leaf ) is described as descending from a long line of distinguished Rabbis in Holland.He changed his name somewhere along the line.... Although he called himself English. He married John Adams' granddaughter which, if the truth had been known would have created a serious family issue in 1814.

JimD
03-20-2007, 08:15 AM
The Blarney Stone

http://www.iol.ie/~discover/bla3.gif

Kissing the Blarney stone

The world famous Blarney Stone is situated high up in the battlements of the castle. Follow one of the several long, stone spiral staircases up to the top and enjoy the spectacular views of the lush green Irish countryside, Blarney House and The Village of Blarney.

The stone is believed to be half of the Stone of Scone which originally belonged to Scotland. Scottish Kings were crowned over the stone, because it was believed to have special powers.

The stone was given to Cormac McCarthy by Robert the Bruce in 1314 in return for his support in the Battle of Bannockburn.

Queen Elizabeth I wanted Irish chiefs to agree to occupy their own lands under title from her. Cormac Teige McCarthy, the Lord of Blarney, handled every Royal request with subtle diplomacy, promising loyalty to the Queen without "giving in". Elizabeth proclaimed that McCarthy was giving her "a lot of Blarney", thus giving rise to the legend.

You too can acquire the gift of eloquence by kissing the stone!

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 08:16 AM
You too can acquire the gift of eloquence by kissing the stone!

Next trip...

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 08:19 AM
Don't worry steve. Queen Victoria really wasn't THAT English.

And I certainly can't go back to 1066. Records were a wee tad scanty back then unless you were royalty. And even there, I have some doubts as to direct lines.. I'm thinking of the Romanov line.. I've got questions about some paternal lineages especially in the 18th ( late ) and early 19th centuries.Land ownership records in England date back to 1066, so you don't need to be Royalty, just have continuous land ownership in the family.
Victoria was English,but her ancestors weren't.
They weren't Scots either,and neither was she,despite all the prancing around in 'Highland dress' and tartan carpets at Balmoral.

JimD
03-20-2007, 08:20 AM
I kissed the stone and it hasn't made me more eloquent. I say the power of the stone of scone is overblown.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 08:24 AM
Victoria was English,but her ancestors weren't..

Well, some had to have been... Ties to Charles 1 ( daughter ). 1625-49.

And my example above. As ABJohnson changed his name, that line is a dead end.. No going back to 1066.
And as far as records. I would suspect that a lot of our ancestors.. at least mine, did not own land. And may have even changed their names periodically through the centuries. Names were anglofied, frenchified, mispelled through generations etc. Very hard to trace I would suspect.

huisjen
03-20-2007, 08:28 AM
If your scones are stones then you need to try a new recipe.

Dan

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 08:34 AM
Anyone tries to kiss my stones will learn all about eloquence from my wife.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 08:38 AM
Just stop wearing that kilt and going to castles..

I think this drift has put this thread on the rocks.. oops. stones or are they scones?

Never mind...

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 08:43 AM
If your scones are stones then you need to try a new recipe.

Dan
2 level cups self-raising flour
1/4 teaspoon salt
1 dessertspoon icing sugar
2 level dessertspoons butter
3/4 cup milk
Sift flour,salt and icing sugar together
Melt butter and add,mix to a soft dough with warm milk.
Knead on floured board, press out 3/4 inch thick and cut to shape.
bake on a greased tray at 220Celsius for 12 to 15 minutes.
Serve with clotted cream and jam, or just break open and butter. Best eaten straight from the oven.
My Scottish grandmother's prize winning recipe.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 08:45 AM
My Scottish grandmother's prize winning recipe.

I thought your grandmother was an Australian? :D

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 08:50 AM
My Scottish grandmother's prize winning recipe.

I thought your grandmother was an Australian? :DBorn in Argyllshire, emigrated to Australia in 1922 and held a British passport all her life. Never became an Australian citizen. Neither did my Scottish grandfather.
Their children were all born here and were therefore Australian.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-20-2007, 09:09 AM
Scotland 13, Ireland 40:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4242465.stm

Next question?

my surname is proof that the English and the Scots don't always fight each other...

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 09:11 AM
Damn.. those Scots should not have been wearing their kilts on the playing field.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 09:16 AM
Scotland 13, Ireland 40:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4242465.stm

Next question?

my surname is proof that the English and the Scots don't always fight each other...Imagine what Scotland would be like today if Charles Stuart had won at Culloden.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 09:19 AM
Saw a 2 hour special on that battle in '45. ( history channel ) It's interesting that the actualt battle was decided in about 45 minutes.. :eek:

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-20-2007, 09:23 AM
Speaking French, probably. And without:

The Wealth of Nations
The steam engine
An Enquiry into Human Understanding
Stephenson's lighthouses

and quite a lot more! :)

But it was a pointless last stand; he'd already been defeated when he lost his nerve at Derby.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 09:26 AM
True Andrew but the program emphasized the point(s) that the English learned how to deal with the weapons of choice used by the Scots.
I can't remember the details but...

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 09:37 AM
I'm surprised that it took that long. It's a very bad place to fight a battle, covered with dense low scrub which prevented the Scots from charging effectively.
The positions of the various clans and regiments are marked on the battlefield. It's interesting that the opposing forces are so close to each other. It says something for the courage of the Scots that they lasted that long against the English grapeshot and musketry.
The battle was more of a Scottish civil war than a battle between the English and Scots.There were many Scots on the English side,Highland and Lowland and IIRC, Lord George Murray surrendered to his son,an English officer.
One of the penalties for treason was confiscation of all lands so it wasn't uncommon for families to fight on both sides to retain ownership of land for the family, whoever the victor.
Two of my ancestors are buried at Culloden, with the Chattos.

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 09:41 AM
steve.. I agree with the description of the battlefield. I stopped by there when I bicycled through... and it was as you described even after 200 plus years.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-20-2007, 09:47 AM
Yes, I've been there too.

I really have no doubts at all that the right side won.

Forget all the shortbread and tartan stuff - the Young Pretender was no democrat - he wanted to re-assert the Divine Right of Kings - monarchical abolutism - and was in the pay of the King of France, another monarchical absolutist.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 09:48 AM
True Andrew but the program emphasized the point(s) that the English learned how to deal with the weapons of choice used by the Scots.
I can't remember the details but...The main tactic used by the Scots was to stand just out of musket range,wait for the enemy to fire and then charge them with swords,hopefully reaching the enemy front line before they could reload and fire again.As the Scots carried shields (targes) they were able to protect themselves against a direct thrust by an English bayonet.
Cumberland countered this by firstly blasting the Scottish lines with grapeshot and also training his troops to thrust their bayonets,not at the man in front of them, but at the man to his right whose targe did not cover his right arm.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 09:55 AM
Yes, I've been there too.

I really have no doubts at all that the right side won.

Forget all the shortbread and tartan stuff - the Young Pretender was no democrat - he wanted to re-assert the Divine Right of Kings - monarchical abolutism - and was in the pay of the King of France, another monarchical absolutist.Charles was more interested in the throne of England really.
As you say, even though it was hard for the Scots for a good long while, their interests were best served by an English victory. Eventually.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 09:58 AM
steve.. I agree with the description of the battlefield. I stopped by there when I bicycled through... and it was as you described even after 200 plus years.It's a sad and eerie place isn't it?
I walked there from Inverness just to get a feeling for what it was like for the Scots.
We caught a bus back.
I saw a very good documentary called "Culloden" which was made sometime in the 1960's by a director called Peter Watkin,who also made a very controversial documentary about the effects of a nuclear war in Britain called "The War Game".IIRC,"Culloden was nearly banned (as was "The War Game") because it depicted realistically how savage Sword and Musket warfare was.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-20-2007, 10:01 AM
Well, it was as much a Lowland Scots - English victory, and it is dreadfully easy to overlook the really huge contribution to human happiness made by the Scots Enlightenment over the following fifty years or so.

Yes, the loyalty of the clans to their emigre overlords was admirable, going to the extent of paying a "double rent" - one to their present landlord and another, of the same amount, to keep an emigre landlord in luxury in France, but it was horribly misguided. I think there is far more glory in "what the Scots did next!"

S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 10:07 AM
Yup steve!
Yup Andrew!

Worth visitng though.. and steve.. your tactic described sound correct from what I can remember.

Chris Coose
03-20-2007, 10:10 AM
Scots are nothing but retarded Irishmen.

The Irish were bright enough to get their own island.
Once they get the Pope thing sorted out the invaders/occupiers will leave and they can return to drinking.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 10:15 AM
Scots are nothing but retarded Irishmen.

The Irish were bright enough to get their own island.
Once they get the Pope thing sorted out the invaders/occupiers will leave and they can return to drinking.Tony Blair is a Scot and he isn't the first Scot to become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
Their island's bigger.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-20-2007, 10:30 AM
And he's about to be suceeded by another Scot - Gordon Brown :
"The finest sight a Scotsman ever sees is the high road to Engand!"

Hal Forsen
03-20-2007, 10:50 AM
Scots are nothing but retarded Irishmen.
What a poor, misguided, ignorant bugger you are laddie.:mad:
I guarantee my late cousin Shimi Lovat would've taken extreme umbrage at such a foolish statement.

Take a look at a short list of the things invented or started by the Scots. Your lives would be pretty miserable without many of these.

There are several people here who have a poor grasp of Scottish and Irish history.
We may not be the same but we have MANY things in common including fighting in each others wars.

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S.V. Airlie
03-20-2007, 10:54 AM
and the list goes on and on and on...

Another One
03-20-2007, 12:29 PM
Steve, I come from a long line of Dutch emmigrants - long-lived, stern people with names like Gerrit and Petreje. When I was a child the stained glass windows in my Grandmother's church featured Dutch bible verses. She would use words familiar to me but not my friends, which I later discovered were Dutch. And in certain parts of the midwest there are a host of standard jokes about how frugal, stubborn and solemn the "Hollanders" are. Now, I'm also fifth (or so) generation American, but that Dutch heritage has been a definite shaping force in my sense of self.

Perhaps the ethnic groups stuck together in distinct communities more effectively in the US, passing on their heritage?

Jami

Bob Cleek
03-20-2007, 02:07 PM
Is it the sheep that explain why there are more Irish than Scots?

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 04:44 PM
Steve, I come from a long line of Dutch emmigrants - long-lived, stern people with names like Gerrit and Petreje. When I was a child the stained glass windows in my Grandmother's church featured Dutch bible verses. She would use words familiar to me but not my friends, which I later discovered were Dutch. And in certain parts of the midwest there are a host of standard jokes about how frugal, stubborn and solemn the "Hollanders" are. Now, I'm also fifth (or so) generation American, but that Dutch heritage has been a definite shaping force in my sense of self.

Perhaps the ethnic groups stuck together in distinct communities more effectively in the US, passing on their heritage?

JamiThat's one way of looking at it, another being that immigrants assimilate more effectively in Oz.

stevebaby
03-20-2007, 05:06 PM
Is it the sheep that explain why there are more Irish than Scots?There are more sheep in Ireland than Scotland.

Hal Forsen
03-20-2007, 05:09 PM
Is it the sheep that explain why there are more Irish than Scots?
There's plenty of sheep, wool and mutton in both green lands.
It's the breeding habits of the Papists:
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great.
If a sperm gets wasted; God gets quite irate.

Bruce Hooke
03-20-2007, 06:18 PM
That's one way of looking at it, another being that immigrants assimilate more effectively in Oz.

In one sense that may be, but I have problems with the implied judgment that there is something wrong with the degree to which various people in the US have retained traditions and suchlike from their country of ancestry. I think the US would be a much less interesting place to live if we did not have our ethnic neighborhoods and celebrations and so on. I enjoy being able to go out my door and get good Guatemalan food and a feel of Guatemalan culture at one restaurant near my house, and then go to a deli in the Italian neighborhood and hear Italian banter and get wonderful Italian food, and then go to a festival and see Columbian folk dancing. I also think it makes the US a stronger country -- we need all the connections to and knowledge of foreign countries we can get right now.