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Nicholas Carey
03-14-2007, 03:28 PM
Looks like the Christian Right is leaving the sinking ship...

The National Association of Evangelicals (http://www.nae.net/) has come out against torture and for the Geneva Conventions.

Here's the NAE's press release (http://www.nae.net/index.cfm?FUSEACTION=editor.page&pageID=419&idCategory=1), and the 18-page manifesto, [i]An Evangelical Declaration Against Torture: Protecting Human Rights in an Age of Terror (http://www.evangelicalsforhumanrights.org/Declaration.pdf), that the NAE's Board of Director's approved.

The lead from [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2032616,00.html"The Guardian[/url]:
The uncoupling of American evangelism from the administration of George Bush gathered pace yesterday when one of the largest national umbrella groups of socially conservative Christians issued a statement critical of US policy towards detainees and repudiating torture as a tactic in the war on terror.

The National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), which represents about 45,000 churches across America, endorsed a declaration against torture drafted by 17 evangelical scholars. The authors, who call themselves Evangelicals for Human Rights and campaign for "zero tolerance" on torture, say that the US administration has crossed "boundaries of what is legally and morally permissible" in the treatment of detainees.

John of Phoenix
03-14-2007, 03:59 PM
I'd love to hear cheney's reaction. :D

George.
03-14-2007, 04:08 PM
If they were real Christians they wouldn't have taken three years to figure out that torture is wrong.

john l
03-14-2007, 04:27 PM
amen!
for that matter if they were really christians, they would not engage in killing, killing equipment, threatening, lying, disparaging, misinforming
etc. hell, if they were simply humanistic and not exclusively finanically
motivated they would act this way. i think the greed and power is blinding and the real moral bankrupter.

Keith Wilson
03-14-2007, 04:35 PM
and not exclusively financially motivated . . . They're not. I don't defend the Christian Right very often, but this is a misconception. A few are corrupt, just like a few in any other segment of society are corrupt, but most aren't. Most are truly convinced that they're on God's side, doing his work. That may be more dangerous.

George.
03-14-2007, 04:48 PM
After almost two decades of dealing with the Brazilian government, I have concluded that the corrupt are far less harmful than the incompetent and the ideologically driven. At least you can negotiate with the corrupt in order to accomplish something positive.

BrianW
03-14-2007, 05:10 PM
If they were real Christians they wouldn't have taken three years to figure out that torture is wrong.


Well since they're not real Christians, then I guess the article is talking about non-Christians.

Good.

John of Phoenix
03-14-2007, 05:11 PM
Neo-Christians? :D

CGrant
03-14-2007, 05:52 PM
amen!
for that matter if they were really christians, they would not engage in killing, killing equipment, threatening, lying, disparaging, misinforming
etc. hell, if they were simply humanistic and not exclusively finanically
motivated they would act this way. i think the greed and power is blinding and the real moral bankrupter.

Really? I'm confused by your post. Are you saying that humanists are, by the very definition of the word, immune from greed and power and moral bankruptcy? Really? Really?

Who sets up "morality" in a humanistic world view? Just curious.

Osborne Russell
03-14-2007, 05:57 PM
After almost two decades of dealing with the Brazilian government, I have concluded that the corrupt are far less harmful than the incompetent and the ideologically driven. At least you can negotiate with the corrupt in order to accomplish something positive.

Now that's conservatism. Let's get real.

Osborne Russell
03-14-2007, 05:58 PM
Who sets up "morality" in a humanistic world view? Just curious.

An omniscient inter-galactic mud shark.

Osborne Russell
03-14-2007, 06:11 PM
Well since they're not real Christians, then I guess the article is talking about non-Christians.

Good.

You may not want to go there.

David Koresh, Jim Jones, Jim and Tammy Baker -- shall we take everyone who says they're a Christian at their word? Fine with me. But then spare us the jazz later on about "wackos in every religion who aren't really part of it."

CGrant
03-14-2007, 07:22 PM
An omniscient inter-galactic mud shark.


I suspected as much. :p

paladin
03-14-2007, 07:38 PM
just visit Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas......look at the biggest, flashiest church that you can find.....go to one service....and you will invariably find someone preaching to the high heavens in a white suit, gucci shoes, gold/diamond rolex and a pompador haircut, with an on site hair stylist to take care of him/her, preaching with only the intent of separating folks with low income and nearly empty purposes to give all they can, then when the service is over, out the back door to their chauffer driven limo.......I grew up in the middle of those folks...that's what kid brother aspires to......I'd feed all of them to the sharks and 'gators....The church is legally incorporated, but check the records for the land and leases on all the material there, and you will generally find that the "Pastor" holds the paper...

Milo Christensen
03-14-2007, 07:38 PM
No more torture? Just when it was beginning to work.


The alleged mastermind of the September 11 terrorist attacks, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, has reportedly admitted responsibility for those and other major Al Qaeda attacks.

stumpbumper
03-14-2007, 07:44 PM
They're not. I don't defend the Christian Right very often, but this is a misconception. A few are corrupt, just like a few in any other segment of society are corrupt, but most aren't. Most are truly convinced that they're on God's side, doing his work. That may be more dangerous.

I agree. Conservatism has beguiled them very effectively for a couple of decades now. Why were they such an easy target? They swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

SamSam
03-14-2007, 08:19 PM
After almost two decades of dealing with the Brazilian government, I have concluded that the corrupt are far less harmful than the incompetent and the ideologically driven. At least you can negotiate with the corrupt in order to accomplish something positive.

Cripes. And here we are with an alchoholic ideological incompetent driven by corrupt puppetmasters. Crapola.

George.
03-15-2007, 07:51 AM
No more torture? Just when it was beginning to work.


I bet I could make you confess to being behind 9-11, if I could keep you at my mercy for five years... ;)

Milo Christensen
03-15-2007, 08:05 AM
I bet I could make you confess to being behind 9-11, if I could keep you at my mercy for five years... ;)

Aboard Dalia? :D Is self-rendition a possibility? :p Want me to bring along some inquisitors? :eek:

Or held in seclusion on that tropical island? :eek: I'll construct the compound with my own barbed wire. :p Will I be guarded by young Brazilians of the female persuasion? :cool:

George.
03-15-2007, 08:12 AM
Sure, aboard Dalia, at first. Being more sophisticated than the CIA, I would use both sticks and carrots... :D

Keith Wilson
03-15-2007, 08:22 AM
Who sets up "morality" in a humanistic world view? Humans. Exactly the same as in a non-humanistic world view, except that humanists don't claim divine origin for their ideas.

BrianW
03-15-2007, 09:00 AM
You may not want to go there.

David Koresh, Jim Jones, Jim and Tammy Baker -- shall we take everyone who says they're a Christian at their word? Fine with me. But then spare us the jazz later on about "wackos in every religion who aren't really part of it."

Uh, whatever dude...

Lay off the pipe before posting. :D

CGrant
03-15-2007, 08:01 PM
Humans. Exactly the same as in a non-humanistic world view, except that humanists don't claim divine origin for their ideas.

Not true. The humanists see themselves as gods. Christianity does NOT postulate that man is God, or "a god," for that matter. That makes it rather unique.

Regardless of your prejudices, it'd be nice if you'd at least get the basic tenets of the religion you mock, straight.

stumpbumper
03-15-2007, 08:20 PM
Not true. The humanists see themselves as gods. Christianity does NOT postulate that man is God, or "a god," for that matter.

Perhaps I'm just ignorant of it, but I never was aware humanism was a religion. It started as a reaction to the unreasonable constraints that the Catholic church placed on individuals and society during medieval times and, concurrently with the Renaissance, placed more emphasis on individual achievement rather than the glory of God. Humanists, such as Petrarch, did not deny the existence of God or of Christ. They just promoted a new spirit of creativeness and independence from the old religous ball and chain.

Lynn

johnw
03-15-2007, 08:48 PM
Perhaps I'm just ignorant of it, but I never was aware humanism was a religion. It started as a reaction to the unreasonable constraints that the Catholic church placed on individuals and society during medieval times and, concurrently with the Renaissance, placed more emphasis on individual achievement rather than the glory of God. Humanists, such as Petrarch, did not deny the existence of God or of Christ. They just promoted a new spirit of creativeness and independence from the old religous ball and chain.

Lynn

Wait, are you telling him to get the tennets of humanism right before he mocks it?

stumpbumper
03-15-2007, 09:28 PM
Wait, are you telling him to get the tennets of humanism right before he mocks it?

I was trying to be somewhat tactful.

Osborne Russell
03-16-2007, 01:56 PM
Not true. The humanists see themselves as gods.

That is often true, but not a tenet of humanism.

zenda
03-17-2007, 12:27 PM
I hate listening to ideological debates. They quickly degenerate into insults and misunderstanding. Here are what I consider very credible expressions of both religions/world views/ideologies.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto1.html
http://www.rzim.org/resources/essay_arttext.php?id=18

I am a Protestant Christian, but I am disgusted by the way the American Church has declined from a body/fellowship into an institution. By that I mean that the majority of it's resources and time go to perpetuating itself rather than pursuing the tenets/priorities of the Faith. I believe it is this institutional mindset that causes the Evangelical Right to support the Bush administration and the Republican Party generally; they see a Republican-shaped America to be a better environment for the continuing health of the institution. Personally, I think both parties are self-serving cesspools; I'm an ideological Libertarian

Sam F
03-17-2007, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by CGrant
Who sets up "morality" in a humanistic world view? Just curious.


An omniscient inter-galactic mud shark.

This points to a certain... ah... blindness.
Did Nanook rub some of that yellow snow in your eyes too? :D

Joe (SoCal)
03-17-2007, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by CGrant
Who sets up "morality" in a humanistic world view? Just curious.



This points to a certain... ah... blindness.
Did Nanook rub some of that yellow snow in your eyes too? :D

And there he goes :rolleyes: mention the word Christian and ya wake ol SamF from his pew nap

http://www.thebackpew.com/backpew/images/just_say_amen.jpg

Tom Montgomery
03-17-2007, 12:51 PM
nevermind

Memphis Mike
03-17-2007, 01:19 PM
just visit Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas......look at the biggest, flashiest church that you can find.....go to one service....and you will invariably find someone preaching to the high heavens in a white suit, gucci shoes, gold/diamond rolex and a pompador haircut, with an on site hair stylist to take care of him/her, preaching with only the intent of separating folks with low income and nearly empty purposes to give all they can, then when the service is over, out the back door to their chauffer driven limo.......I grew up in the middle of those folks...that's what kid brother aspires to......I'd feed all of them to the sharks and 'gators....The church is legally incorporated, but check the records for the land and leases on all the material there, and you will generally find that the "Pastor" holds the paper...

Add Tennessee and Mississippi to that list. You got her pegged. On Sunday mornings, the Dubya's campaign busses were parked on the parking lots of these places when he was running for president.

S.V. Airlie
03-17-2007, 01:40 PM
At least you can negotiate with the corrupt in order to accomplish something positive. Quote frm George.

I suppose it depends on what you have to offer them in return.

Sam F
03-17-2007, 02:24 PM
Well Osborne, I hope you at least appreciated that I got your joke. Apparently some here didn't. :D

stumpbumper
03-17-2007, 08:27 PM
Well Osborne, I hope you at least appreciated that I got your joke. Apparently some here didn't. :D

I did!!:D :D :D

But, MMike's quote of Paladin is well-taken. So typical of how conservatism has beguiled the poor well-meaning religious people with single issues that they never intended to do anything about, and probably couldn't.

Sam F
03-17-2007, 10:05 PM
I did!!

Do you see a pancake breakfast in Osborne's future too? ;)


But, MMike's quote of Paladin is well-taken. So typical of how conservatism has beguiled the poor well-meaning religious people with single issues that they never intended to do anything about, and probably couldn't.

Replace the word "conservatism" with "politicians" and we'd be in total agreement.

stumpbumper
03-17-2007, 10:21 PM
How the hell do you spell, "toucheeeeeee"!!!!

Lynn

stumpbumper
03-17-2007, 10:38 PM
On the other hand, you can't deny that the extreme conservative fringes have beguiled the "flock" with single issue messages such as "abortion", which nothing can be done about other than to provide safe ones. The other "ringer" issue is gun control. The administration is no longer even enforcing the Brady Bill. We Mississippians have a few priorities and they are the right to bear oozies and to pick our noses and chew Copenhagen or Red Man.

Keith Wilson
03-17-2007, 11:20 PM
(Quotes from CGrant)
The humanists see themselves as gods. I know quite a few humanists and some atheists. Not a single one of them claims to be a god. Most are good most of the time, they all screw up some of the time, but not a single one acts like a god, or sees himself as such. They'd laugh at the suggestion. They seem to get along just fine without gods.
Christianity does NOT postulate that man is God, or "a god," for that matter. That makes it rather unique. In no way does this make it unique; this is common to just about every religion that ever existed.
Regardless of your prejudices, it'd be nice if you'd at least get the basic tenets of the religion you mock, straight. Excuse me? Basic tenets wrong? Which ones, please? Are you saying Christians do not claim divine origin for their moral principles?

stumpbumper
03-17-2007, 11:34 PM
[SIZE=1]In no way does this make it unique; this is common to just about every religion that ever existed.All religions deal with man seeking God or the right "way" but Christianity is the only religion in which God came to man, rather than man just seeking God or the right path. I respect all of the Eastern religions and feel much is to be learned from all of them, but Christianity is unique in this respect.

Lynn

PeterSibley
03-17-2007, 11:46 PM
Not true. The humanists see themselves as gods.

You seem a little confused ....:D

PeterSibley
03-17-2007, 11:52 PM
After almost two decades of dealing with the Brazilian government, I have concluded that the corrupt are far less harmful than the incompetent and the ideologically driven. At least you can negotiate with the corrupt in order to accomplish something positive.

This will be somethng to consider as the US begins to negotiate with a new Shia Iraqi government ....should that much stability ever happen ,(it will be Shia ), rather than Sadam, a man very much to the liking of Western governments for a very long time .

stumpbumper
03-18-2007, 12:28 AM
Do you see a pancake breakfast in Osborne's future too?

Osborne would be welcome there. I mean, hell, they let me in those things!!

Lynn

Sam F
03-18-2007, 10:42 AM
Osborne would be welcome there. I mean, hell, they let me in those things!!

Lynn

Even at Saint Alphonso's? ;)

Btw, I agree that politicians mislead and con Christians and cultural conservatives on various issues. As an occational reader of what folks call "Christian Right" literature, I can testify that at least some of the CR's leadership have been warning about political backstabing for a very long time. It's the same thing politicians do to Liberals with their cherished hopes. I mean when did Al Gore get so green? It sure wasn't when he was VP. If huge environmental improvements occurred during the 8 years of the Clinton-Gore enviro-paradise, I missed them.
And what about the Liberal dogma of gun control? Heck! I can even buy a canon if I have the dough. How's that "progress"? :)

Keith Wilson
03-18-2007, 10:51 AM
I can even buy a canon if I have the dough.Don't they give canons away free to anyone who wants them? Press them on you, even? ;)

Sam F
03-18-2007, 11:02 AM
Don't they give canons away free to anyone who wants them? Press them on you, even?

I wish... but a short time ago a fellow tried real hard to sell me a 6 pdr.
Nice gun, but it wouldn't fit in the gun rack in my Pickup's rear window. :D

glenallen
03-18-2007, 01:54 PM
....."Nice gun, but it wouldn't fit in the gun rack on my Pickup's rear window." Sam F

LMAO

SamSam
03-18-2007, 02:17 PM
I can even buy a canon if I have the dough.

That's what I've always suspected, thank you for clearing that up.

Osborne Russell
03-18-2007, 03:57 PM
This points to a certain... ah... blindness.
Did Nanook rub some of that yellow snow in your eyes too? :D

Takes faith to see her. No mocking.

Keith Wilson
03-18-2007, 05:40 PM
Nice gun, but it wouldn't fit in the gun rack in my Pickup's rear window.I think you could mount it facing aft - a stern chaser, like - and it would discourage tailgaters wonderfully. But it would still be a cannon. ;)