How much leaking is too much?

[david quillin]

My 39' Hooper Island Draketail leaks quite a bit. After running it, usually kicks on bilge pumps every hour or so, decreases somewhat after being at the dock for awhile. I don't know exactly where the water is coming from, but it is around the keel, and probably has something to do with the keel not being a single piece. In other words, it is not a planking issue. There is no rot, the boat is strong. I have four bilge pumps on two separate electrical circuits just in case, but other than being annoying, is there any problem with this? Keeps the bilge really clean with all that turnover... thoughts?

[sdowney717]

perhaps not so fine if your bilge pump fails and then the boat could sink.
I could see on my boat where the water came in, it was pumping every 15 minutes and I had a complete ecosystem growing in there. Worms, clams, craps, etc... And I swear I could even hear the wood worms chewing on the stem.

[Dan Payne]

I like a dry bilge, and I hate to hear (and see, if you're on the dock) the pump running so frequently. Assuming you're in salt water there's no real detriment to that water being there (other than unwanted ballast and wet feet if you're healing), but you should really want to know the WHY? Are the 2 parts in the keel where the water's getting in moving and stressing? A sign of problems to come.

[david quillin]

Thats a good point, and it stresses me not knowing exactly where the problem is. There is a steady stream of water flow that comes up near the stern from between the keel and the keelson. I have tried packing the seam with oakum but that just moved the water outflow to a different spot, didn't address how the water was getting there in the first place. The puzzling thing is the water stream comes up through the keel at a point above the waterline. Mysterious. I have a knowledgeable boatyard that has reviewed the issue, and they think short of rebuilding the keel (and thus pretty much the whole boat), I should just live with it. Any other thoughts out there?

[sdowney717]

There is another concern. If you have oil in the bilge from an oil leak, it is possible that a boat that is a pumper could pump out an oily discharge, then you could be in trouble with fines etc...
I have seen boats where oil floats on top of the bilge water. Not too much problem if the water is still. But if it is wavy, the pump can pump oil along with the water. And I have seen that too.

[John B]

It'll wear at you and end up spoiling your boating. Every haul I walk around looking for obvious leaks, identify where they are and attempt to fix them.I've found some 'unique' ones over the years ;) .
That much should be fairly easy to spot from the outside when you're out next.

[Patrick Miller]

In the great tradition of this forum I don't have a practical solution for you David. Instead, if you haven't read it, get hold of Farley Mowat's funny story The Boat Who Wouldn't Float . A reissue edition is only US$4.50 from Amazon (see web page (http://www.schoonerman.com/book/boatwf.htm) )

If I remember correctly, after several costly attempts to find his leak, he claims he used to find a friendly mudbank, stir up the mud with his prop wash, then allow hydraulic pressure to drive the fine particles into his leak where they effectively sealed it for a time. Sounds far fetched to me, but the book is a scream. I'm sure it has been read by hundreds on WBF.

[bugeye]

Hi,
God I love those draketails. I'm a die-hard sailboat guy, but if nobody was looking, I'd love to build a draketail. Have you considered that the rudder shaft tube might be the trouble? Or does it have a wooden rudder trunk? While I was doing some work on the skipjack Rebecca Ruark, her rudder trunk was leaking so badly that if the pump quit overnight, when I'd get to the boat in the morning, there'd be three feet of water in her. Anyway the water didn't look like it was coming from the rudder trunk, but it was. Have you re-caulked your keel rabbet? I want to call it the garboard seam, but it ain't. When the boats were built, this was the only seam in the whole bottom that was caulked. Usually, the maintenance that this gets is somebody driving cotton into the seam with a large screwdriver and a claw hammer, with the boat hanging in the slings , and water running out of the very same seam. I just have to look the other way. Forgive me if I'm telling you what you already know. If you've got big problems with your keelson, start looking for a nice pine tree with a sweep near its butt, and in the meantime, put lead flashing bedded in roofing cement over the seam and keep enjoying what I think is one of the prettiest power workboats ever. I'd love to see a picture of her, if you're able.

[Gary E]

If it's leaking that fast, and you dont want to pull it out for repair, I would try this.

Get a 1 lb coffee can with the plastic lid (maybe bigger if the leak is real big) and rig it with 2 lines so you can move it in place under the boat. The 3rd line is attached to the lid so that a tug on it will pull the lid off. Weight the can with fishing weights, and fill it with sawdust. Position the can under the boat where you think the leak is and yank the lid off. Or if your a member of the polarbear club, go for a swim. The sawdust will float up aginst the boat's bottom and should find the leak where with some luck it will fill the hole and stop the leak.

[sdowney717]

that worked for me on my stem leak for about a week. Slowed and then completely stopped. But there was too much damage and it opened up again. I had a worm problem right where the stem meets the water a few inchs down. Perhaps his keel leak is due to worm tunnels. Worms are not the only pest, now with the water getting clean, Gribbles are making a big comeback, voracious eaters. They will easily sink a boat, and are what sank Christopher Coloumbus's boat in the new world.

[dunbarpm]

Here is a pic of my old Draketail, Miss Chevrolet. She leaked just enough to keep the rain water honest. Bay Draketail (http://home.earthlink.net/~dunbarpm/Rozinante/Miss Cheverolet.jpg)

[dunbarpm]

hmmmm. try this http://home.earthlink.net/~dunbarpm/Rozinante/Miss Cheverolet.jpg

[dunbarpm]

I give up. there is a picture there somewhere. Built on the lower Bay in 1928, now at the annapolis maritime museum.

When we bought 'er a young kid had a big V8 for an engine. He took us out and the boat would get up and go so fast that it would lift up onto the keel then flop over on one chine, lift up agin and flop over onto the other chine, etc etc. We put a 4cyl volvo into her and she went just fine.

[pcford]

I tell clients that they should be able to leave their boat for a week with the pump off and not worry about it. Pump should of course be normally on; you should take a look at your boat once a week.

[sdowney717]

http://home.earthlink.net/~dunbarpm/Rozinante/Miss%20Cheverolet.jpg

[Paul Silverman]

Another sawdust method that I have used (and it was effective) is to put a lot of fine sawdust in a garbage bag. slice it in several places with a knife. tie it to a long pole and wave it under the boat in the approximate place where the leak is. The pressure of the leak causes the sawdust to enter the crack(s), it then swells, and leak is "fixed" possibly until the next haul out.

[david quillin]

Great, interesting feedback thanks. Bugeye, interesting thought about the rudder post tube. I don't think thats it, but you just never know with a wooden boat. As for the keel rabbit, there is no garboard, as it is cross-planked. When hauled water came out all along that seam, obviously a partial source of the problem. Last year my boatyard put a triangular section strip of cedar all across the seam, both sides, bedded in caulk. It slowed the leaking a bit. This year I got caught in some really rough water and ever since it is as bad as ever. I have tried the sawdust trick a few times and it doesn't seem to have much effect. No evidence of worm damage, thank god, but don't know if it is usually visible. I am in Maryland coastal waters, don't think we have too many critters here, but not sure.
Dunbarpm, beautiful boat! Not many draketails left anymore. I repowered (boat had sunk under previous owner) with a big gas engine. I run her real easy, but have opened her up once in a while, does just what you describe- flops from chine to chine. Definitely not meant to be a planing hull! But god she goes easy through the water at 12 knots!

[david quillin]

p.s. I would love to post photos but can't figure out how to do it. I have tried an image server, but I am on a Mac and it doesn't seem to work.

[dunbarpm]

I've replaced several of those cross planks in my old draketail but true to the methods around here, never caulked or bedded the planks, either between planks or at the keel. left a gap measured by a folding rule thickness and it would swell tight. Now that you remind me, we did replace the top of the keel in the way of the shaft log one spring to resolve a nasty leak. you may not have that option -- the leaking was pretty evident in our case.

depending on the age of the boat, you should watch for iron drifts vertically through the topsides planks. The draketail was so long and narrow with very limited thwortship structure to preserve clear working space I would guess, they drifted the topside planks together for strength (mine were around 12-15" wide). In any event, after 50 or 60 years these iron drifts would corrode, expanding a bit as they did. This would trap water in vertical pockets, causing rot. It drove me nuts every time I hauled out cleaning out a few every haulout and patching those long wide topside planks. sort of sad.

great boat though, 42ft long, toothpick wide, just slide through the water. had to drag baskets to convince 'er to go trotline speed. The museum tells me old Miss Chevrolet was a known rum runner, but they all seem to claim that distinction...

[david quillin]

I am very interested in what you are saying about replacing the top of the keel- my dominant leak is visible as a stream of water emerging from the top of the keel between the rudder post and propellor shaft, and running down the top of the keel towards the engine. The leak actually emerges from between the keel and keelson- an unusual arrangement. My boatyard says they should have just used a single piece keel and I wouldn't have this problem. Can you tell me more about where your leak was and how you fixed it?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Have you tried the white lead paste and grease gun trick?

Can be very effective with this sort of leak.

You need an ordinary grease gun, filled with a mixture of white lead paste and grease (say, 2:1) and a modified end with a coarse screw thread (i.e., drill out a small buttress thread coach screw, and braze it onto the existing fitting.

Drill a pilot hole towards the void where the water is coming from and screw the modified end in, then pump the grease gun until you see white gloop emerging somewhere.

Repeat all along the offending seam.

Very old boatyard trick; works every time.

[RGM]

If you're still looking for the leak(s) round up a small compressor and air hose. Tie the air hose (open ended) to a stick or pike pole. Submerge the end of the hose with air running. Put someone inside your boat. Methodically drag it along the underside of your hull. Usually air will make it's way into your boat thru the leaks, you'll see bubbles and/or hear it. A diver can accomplish the same thing by using his mouthpiece and cruising your hull. Good luck.

[neptoon]

my uderstanding is the boat must be solid at the floor timbers and soundly attached to to bottoms of your frames and lastly your garboards fit well into your solid rabbit at the keelson and firmly secured to your floors...this supports the whole vessel....and caulking is the final support...cotton after it swells puts the final pressure and rigidity you need to lessen the movement of the planks......

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I hate leaky boats. I like a bilge pump that comes on about once a week, and only a couple of gallons.

[sdowney717]

Planks run from keel to chine not for and aft so no garboards right? So I guess its just oakum/cotton pounded between keel and the ends of the planks where they meet the keel. I have heard of some people smearing roofing tar into this area.

I dont know how aggressively you want this fixed but you could do it all yourself, wood the entire hull and use the permaflex and or LRB rubber from www.sanitred.com, (http://www.sanitred.com,) this would entirely seal the bottom in a layer of liquid rubber, so far my own experience has been very positive using this stuff.

Another thing about boats that pump a lot. Typically at a marina if there is oil in the water the suspicion goes toward the boat that pumps all the time.

[sdowney717]

www.sanitred.com (http://www.sanitred.com) (had a comma in there)
Of course my even mentioning this might bring out the wolves.

[seo]

A useful tool for searching out leaks is a wet/dry shop vac. This allows you to get the bilge totally dry, and even suck the water out of the grain of the wood. A leak as fast as the one you're describing will well back up out of the guilty seam quickly, while the surrounding planking remains dry.
Finding a leak underwater is next to impossible.
I have spent hours creeping around underwater, looking for leaks on barges, tugs, etc. One theory is that if you use a small squirt bottle of milk (on the outside, underwater) and squirt it right at the suspect spot, it will stream into the leak. I never got it to work.
Did have success with a very light sheet of plastic. Use pins (wood) or magnets (steel) to spread the plastic over the suspect area. Then use a paint brush to gently press the plastic against the hull. The idea is that the water flowing in through the leak will stick the plastic to the hull right at that point.
I used to have a big (62') old (1933) wood passenger boat with twin shaft logs made out of timber. One had checked right through and leaked like crazy.
I was about to go through the torment of boring the shaft log and fitting a liner, or going with a metal shaft tube, when a very good surveyor named Rick Ferris gave me the idea of pouring melted tallow into the crack. It worked fine. He said it would work even with the boat in the water, but I did it with her hauled out.
The difficult part was finding tallow. I finally had to get some chunks of beef fat from a slaughter house, and keep it heating over a low fire for several days while it rendered, or whatever the word is.
I guess the theory is that the tallow remains plastic, and so can come and go a little. I've seen people try the same thing with hot pitch, and it didn't work. When the leaking joint was finally taken apart, the pitch hadn't penetrated very far.
seo