black locust & honey locust

[centroid]

i'm talking to a sawyer about buying some BLACK locust down the road for frames. he's got two kinds, black and honey. he said some folks say this is black locust and other folks say the other stuff is black locust. so the best way is to describe the color.

1) yellowish/green
2) reddish/ orange

which is which ? i'm thinking its #2.

[pjwalsh]

My wood encyclopedia sez:

Honey Locust (Gleditsia Triacanthos)
Wide yellowish sapwood with light red to reddish brown heartwood.

Black Locust (Robinia Pseudo acacia)
Narrow creamy white sapwood with greenish yellow to dark brown heartwood.

If the tree is standing it is easier: honey locust has thorns, black locust does not. In my part of new england there is quite a bit of black locust around but they are generally pretty small trees.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by pjwalsh:
Black Locust (Robinia Pseudo acacia)
Narrow creamy white sapwood with greenish yellow to dark brown heartwood.
That's what you want for boats. And in a couple years it'll be ready to use. Or steam it green.

[Wilson Fitt]

Black locust has a distinctly greenish tinge when freshly cut. It fades to brown with exposure to air. Wonder why it's called black?

[centroid]

i know honey locust is not as rot resistant, but if it was used by mistake, would it still be useable ?

[reddog]

Wilson;
Did you source your locust here in Nova Scotia?If so do you mind me asking where.
Earl

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by pjwalsh:
. . . If the tree is standing it is easier: honey locust has thorns, black locust does not. In my part of new england there is quite a bit of black locust around but they are generally pretty small trees.Honey Locust has very long spike-like thorns. Black locust has thorns in a shape similar to those of a raspberry or blackberry bush, only larger. Black Locust will grow to a good size. Trunks 15- 18-inches in diameter are common around here.

Wayne

[pjwalsh]

Wayne,

never noticed any even small thorns on the black locust trees around here, but next time I'm tramping about the woods I'll look more closely.

In general the range of these trees in western mass seems to be in the lower elevations close to rivers but not in wet soil. They range in size from shrubbish to maybe 12" diameter and 50' tall. Even at 12" diameter there is not a lot of lumber in them, but some of the guys with bandsaw mills do work with them

[dadadata]

"never noticed any even small thorns on the black locust trees around here, but next time I'm tramping about the woods I'll look more closely. "

Some black locust doesn't have thorns. Honey locust seed pods are larger.

I'm sure honey locust would be OK in any kind of boat 90% of us are likely to build.

[centroid]

dadadata-
"I'm sure honey locust would be OK in any kind of boat 90% of us are likely to build."

what's in other 10% boat ? i'm building a 24' lyle hess cutter. plank on double sawn black locust frames.

not sure about the thorns for black locust, but would it be more definite to select black locust by the greenish yellow sap to dark brown heartwood ??

[Sailing-Randy]

Okay, I've got "The Tree Identification Book" by George W.D. Symonds in front of me. (good book, many pictures with little discription and presents a nice way for IDing trees)

On the differences between Black and honey he says Honey has far longer thorns (my words-not his) However, he also points out that the two trees have different bark. Honey Locust has a flat scaly type bark, while the Black has a bark more like cottonwood.

In this neck of the woods (pun intended) there are quite a few "Thornless Honey Locusts" planted for their beauty. :rolleyes:

I am assuming the wood is the same. I have a fire log size piece in the garage waiting for me to have enough time to mess with. I am hoping to use it for blocks.

[Seth Wood]

I think the wood is not exactly the same (black vs. honey), though without proof that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

I've seen black locust with thorns, at least when it's young. The bark is generally, around here at least, deeply striated -- think Godzilla-skin from the old movies -- and blackish.

The wood is indeed green and kinda acrid-smelling when cut.

There was an article in WB several issues (years?) back about black locust; surely you can find it through the online index.

Caution: much black locust, though tremendously rot-resistant, for some reason is rotten in the center of the tree. Pardey warns about this, and I've seen it first-hand when a 14" diam. black locust blew down onto my boatshed during a summer storm. Salvaged the wood for cleats, a tiller and and samson post. That'll teach it fall on my shed.

Also see this online wood guide:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm

Or maybe a trip to the library for tree books.

[Wilson Fitt]

Reddog: Black locust seems to have been introduced to Nova Scotia as an ornamental. Trees are moderately common along roadsides and in people's yards in the western counties. Once you start looking for them the extremely ropy bark and compound leaves are easy to spot from the car. I have never seen one in the "woods". There is a solitary black locust beside the road in Oakland about a half klick from the main highway, and a fair number along the LaHave. The further west you go, the more common they are.

I spent a bunch of time talking to old guys and finally located a row of a dozed or so nearly dead trees in Mill Village that the owner wanted removed. The standing wood was free and I hired a bandsaw mill operator to mill them on site. He was not terribly enthusiatic, insisting that the bottom 5' or so be cut off because of concern about old fence wire and nails embedded in the trunks. As it was, I paid for a couple of ruined blades that day.

Here's one of the trees coming down:

[/IMG]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid10/p3e65fcd9e2feb160f3d21e9e79475a57/fe03379e.jpg.orig.jpg[IMG]

[Wilson Fitt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilson Fitt:
[QB]Reddog: Black locust seems to have been introduced to Nova Scotia as an ornamental. Trees are moderately common along roadsides and in people's yards in the western counties. Once you start looking for them the extremely ropy bark and compound leaves are easy to spot from the car. I have never seen one in the "woods". There is a solitary black locust beside the road in Oakland about a half klick from the main highway, and a fair number along the LaHave. The further west you go, the more common they are.

I spent a bunch of time talking to old guys and finally located a row of a dozed or so nearly dead trees in Mill Village that the owner wanted removed. The standing wood was free and I hired a bandsaw mill operator to mill them on site. He was not terribly enthusiatic, insisting that the bottom 5' or so be cut off because of concern about old fence wire and nails embedded in the trunks. As it was, I paid for a couple of ruined blades that day.

Here's one of the trees coming down:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid10/p3e65fcd9e2feb160f3d21e9e79475a57/fe03379e.jpg.orig.jpg

[Wilson Fitt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilson Fitt:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilson Fitt:
[QB]Reddog: Black locust seems to have been introduced to Nova Scotia as an ornamental. Trees are moderately common along roadsides and in people's yards in the western counties. Once you start looking for them the extremely ropy bark and compound leaves are easy to spot from the car. I have never seen one in the "woods". There is a solitary black locust beside the road in Oakland about a half klick from the main highway, and a fair number along the LaHave. The further west you go, the more common they are.

I spent a bunch of time talking to old guys and finally located a row of a dozed or so nearly dead trees in Mill Village that the owner wanted removed. The standing wood was free and I hired a bandsaw mill operator to mill them on site. He was not terribly enthusiatic, insisting that the bottom 5' or so be cut off because of concern about old fence wire and nails embedded in the trunks. As it was, I paid for a couple of ruined blades that day.

Here's one of the trees coming down:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid10/p3e65fcd9e2feb160f3d21e9e79475a57/fe03379e.jpg

[Wilson Fitt]

Yikes, what's going on here? I feel like I am trapped in a photocopier! Maybe the Raeliens have infected my post...

[Keith Wilson]

Anybody know if you can steam-bend Black Locust? I have a need for some relatively small frames, say 1-1/4" (32mm) x 1/2" (13mm) with moderate bends, and I may have a source for some green Black Locust. That rot resistance would sure be nice for whoever gets the boat after I'm dead. The original frames lasted 40 years, and I'll do a better job with the second set, so it probably won't be my problem, but it's nice to think I postponed the inevitable as long as I can.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Keith,

At 1/2-inch thick, it's hard to imagine any wood that wouldn't steam bend to a moderate bend.

BTW, only the heartwood of black locust has the exceptional rot resistance. Trim away all the sapwood. The sapwood is no more than moderately rot resistant. It's easy to tell the difference because of the change in color.

Post pictures!

Wayne

[suedebriar]

Black Locust steams just like Oak without the problem of splitting. It can be used anywhere a designer specified white oak. Strenght and weight are similar it is more rot resistant and it steams easily. The only lproblems that you may encounter is it smells like dog **** when you cut it and it may twist as it drys if cut green.

[steve sparhawk]

I've been using honey locust for trim. It is hard, tough, Maybe ??? not as rot resistant as black but black is nearly indestructible in the ground so we're OK. It finishes with a beautiful grain and color. Much nicer than almost any other durable wood. I'm sure it would steam-bend well.I'd have no hesitation about using it for framing below the water line.

Best thing is that we have some local stuff planted as ornamental and I snag every one I see coming down around town and off to the bandmill.

[steve sparhawk]

I've been using honey locust for trim. It is hard, tough, Maybe ??? not as rot resistant as black but black is nearly indestructible in the ground so we're OK. It finishes with a beautiful grain and color. Much nicer than almost any other durable wood. I'm sure it would steam-bend well.I'd have no hesitation about using it for framing below the water line.

Best thing is that we have some local stuff planted as ornamental and I snag every one I see coming down around town and off to the bandmill.

[centroid]

any idea what kind of price per bf a guy should expect if getting random lenths and widths, 4/4 rift cuts ?

its sounds like they don't come in wide boards. i'm asking for lots of crooks.

is this stuff good for a porched exposed to the weather since its good rot resistance ? or is it too unstable ?

[reddog]

Wilson;
Thanks for the info.As luck would have it I am about five minutes from Oakland.There is a stand on the Clearwater Road in Mahone Bay just up past the cemetary.They may even be on the DOT right of way.I thought you might have sourced some from a mill and now that you mention it they do seem to be planted as ornamentals.
Earl Woodworth

[Venchka]

Originally posted by centroid:
any idea what kind of price per bf a guy should expect if getting random lenths and widths, 4/4 rift cuts ?

its sounds like they don't come in wide boards. i'm asking for lots of crooks.

is this stuff good for a porched exposed to the weather since its good rot resistance ? or is it too unstable ?I was obsessed with using black locust in my boat. A Google search will turn up sources in West Virginia & Pennsylvania. Another source in Iliinois can be had by contacting a guy named Jim in East Texas-he's listed on the web selling Mesquite & Osage Orange. Anyway, Jim's brother has a bandmill in Illinois and claimed to have access to some large black locust trees.

A & M Lumber in Ontario has a bunch too.

As for price, it varies from cheap cheap to not so cheap to borderline expensive. Just like everything else in this world. Besides, my prices are at least 6 months old. As I recall, the price varied from $1.25 to $6.00 a board foot.

Problem is, it's all mostly green. Fine for small bits and steaming. A few years away from being properly seasoned.

As for movement, reportedly black locust has less shrikage and movement than white oak. A trait which I think explains black locust's use as treenails. The oak would shrink tight around the locust & since the locust is stronger, the oak didn't crush it. Or so it seems.

ps-You wouldn't want me to hand you all of the contact info., would you? That would take all the fun out of the search. Besides, it's all written down at home and I am in the office now.

[centroid]

Venchka- hey if you got any info to share, i would love to have it. i'll skip the fun of searching on the web and go for the fun of building a boat instead !

what kind of board widths are considered small or large ? or what sizes should i try to avoid ?

[Thaddeus J. Van Gilder]

Black locust steams quite well, but in my experience, it splits worse than white oak, but that could be because it is easier to find really straight grained oak, than straight grained locust.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by centroid:
Venchka- hey if you got any info to share, i would love to have it. i'll skip the fun of searching on the web and go for the fun of building a boat instead !

what kind of board widths are considered small or large ? or what sizes should i try to avoid ?A word of caution: Ignore the info. on the web and call these folks directly. Tell them what you want and if it can be made available.

World of Wood-PA (http://www.innernet.net/galleryofwood/pricelist.htm)

Alta-West Virginia (http://www.altalabinstrument.com/wood/marine.htm)

A&M Lumber - Ontario (http://www.forloversofwood.com/canada/pricelist.html)

Texas Mesquite-Black Locust in Illinois (http://www.texasmesquitelumber.com/index.htm)

One more source, the ad with phone number is in the classifieds in WoodenBoat magazine: New England Naval Timbers.

I must be an old softy for doing this. Actually, I would much rather see black locust used in boats rather than fence posts or decks.

You asked about board widths & lengths. It varies all over the place. You have to ask each supplier what's available. Here is an example of what I found last summer at Alta Resources in West Virginia:

"Wayne
I have several hundred feet of 1 x 4 to 12"w x 10 to 14 ft long clear
black locust, airdry @ $6/bf. Also some 8/4, not clear (6-8" x ~8') @
$4/bf AD
regards
Bob"

There it is, the Gospel on Black Locust in North America.

Enjoy! Make sure you post pictures of the boat.

Cheers!