What on earth is a 9 metre?

[John B]

News to me

Waione building ,21 sept 1907.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p25e9b32c5ee77db6be11122fb0de4220/ea665c4a.jpg

[htom]

I think the reference is to the International Metre Rule, a scheme for dividing sailboats into classes. The 12 Metres that were used in America's Cup racing until recently were designed under or to that rule, only with "12" instead of "9". Different than the Square Meter rule.

[John B]

I know a bit about the metre rule Ok htom, just never heard of 9 before. 6 , 8 10 12 etc but 9 ?
and its peculiar because 2 other boats which are 'more powerful' larger displacement boats from the same/similar period are apparently designed for 8M. So its all a bit of a puzzle.

[Paul Pless]

misprint possibly???

Which 'rule' does Waione most closely conform to? Was she originally built to a measure rating rule?


One of these days I'm gonna sucker that 'History of Waione' out of you.:)

[bamamick]

the classifieds recently that they had called a 7-metre. The inference was that the designer built his own boat by adapting the International rule to fit a criteria of the owner. Is it possible that your boat's designer (bless him) used elements of the International rule in drawing up your boat?

Mickey Lake

[John B]

According to our most emminent yachting historian, there were several attempts to get M rule boats going in NZ in the early 1900's.There's 3 sixes, a couple of ( possible) Eights's and another later one thats gone now, but the comment was made that we had such good Victorian raters still sailing that there just wasn't the interest in the Metre boats to get them going in classes. Small population see, I don't know that it would have big enough in its post colonial glory to be able to sustain them anyway.
An interesting little footnote about Waione though isn't it.( to me anyway).
Paul, there's plenty of written history on waione. I wrote something that would be in the Sheerlines archives on our CYA site . I'll try and find it. May be tomorrow though.

[waters'l]

My guess would be that at the begining of the metre rule, designers had boats of all the different sizes possible and the 6, 8, 10, 12, 23 became the most popular classes. IIRC, the cutter, Tuiga is an 18 or 19 metre boat but you don't hear about that class either. If it is a true 9-metre, it would be a cool piece of early history.

[bamamick]

one that was vandalized and burned? Makes the blood boil thinking about it, doesn't it?

Wow. Your boat has a big birthday coming up, doesn't she?

Mickey Lake

[Nanoose]

...about 30 feet....

[Kim Whitmyre]

"Mr. T. Bone?" I think the whole article is a hoax.:)

[S/V Laura Ellen]

I know a bit about the metre rule Ok htom, just never heard of 9 before. 6 , 8 10 12 etc but 9 ?
and its peculiar because 2 other boats which are 'more powerful' larger displacement boats from the same/similar period are apparently designed for 8M. So its all a bit of a puzzle.
I saw some plans a while ago for an 11 meter, first I had seem a mention of it anywhere.

[The Bigfella]

Sydney-based member Chris may know something about these - he has a 6 IIRC.

[Jase]

from what I understand, John also has the exact launching date now too :)

[Steveh]

Good call Paul. Hey you never know. The journalist could have been a young’n sent out on his debut article and just got it wrong. 9M is certainly an odd ball down here in NZ.

Waione is certainly similar to say Prize that Chad considers an 8M along with Tamatea. Vastly differing boats visually BTW. Would you consider Waione part of the 8m?

John, I’ve always wondered why Ngatira wasn’t slotted into the A class fleet when you look at comparative lewngths to Waione and say Victory at 38’ if memory serves me well. Harold has stated rating, which just went over my head. I’m feeling Ngatira was out of the picture and just didn’t feature at the time of class numbering changing to A class.

I digress. It’s all very interesting tho.

[HS]

I believe Joe White's "Acrospire IV" which was here in Melbourne until around 1969/70 rated 9m. I think it's still sailing out of Freo.

Hans

[ingo]

There are only few 9-metres. But they are a regular class. In Kiel we have the SANTANITA

Look at http://www.fky.org/prestodata/record.php4?idnr=schiffe-XAD03X1907&config=sch&mask=ext&language=eng

http://www.fky.org/yachtsportarchiv/bilder/yachtbild/CY15-82.greiser98.jpg

[ingo]

My guess would be that at the begining of the metre rule, designers had boats of all the different sizes possible and the 6, 8, 10, 12, 23 became the most popular classes. IIRC, the cutter, Tuiga is an 18 or 19 metre boat but you don't hear about that class either. If it is a true 9-metre, it would be a cool piece of early history.

Tuiga is a 15-metre.

There are 7-metres and 6.5-metres, too ;)

[John B]

Thanks Ingo.
Big size discrepancy compared with us though

Technical dates
Length over all: 15,5 waione 12.5
Length of waterline: 10,5 waione 9.4 ( orig say 8. something)
Beam: 2,8 waione 2.7
Draft: 2,3 waione 1.9 Now orig say 1.8
Displacement: 11 . waione say 8 to 8.5
Sailarea close_hauled: 90 waione 110( gaff)
spinnaker: Spi
Rigg: Sloop 3/4tel
Inboard motor:
Material of Hull: Holz
Material of Mast: Alu



Just a far bigger boat than us eh. I always thought she'd be pretty close to an 8 but....

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Acrospire IV is on the Australian Register of Ships, home port is Fremantle.
Length is 54 feet, rated 9.31m when she raced in the Sayonara cup before WW2.
In those days the cup was between 8m boats, more recently Dragons.
Cant find a picture, but still looking.

[John B]

There's a gaff Acrospire in melbourne and she's around that size but I don't know her #( whether she's IV or not)

[John B]

It's Acrospire III I know of.
http://www.ldyachtbrokers.com/Boats/AcrospireIII/listpage.htm

[Lucky Luke]

Possibly 9 R (= Racer) or 9 CR (= Cruiser Racer), not 9 (= International). I will see if I can find any old documentaion...not sure.

[martin schulz]

I know a bit about the metre rule Ok htom, just never heard of 9 before. 6 , 8 10 12 etc but 9 ?
and its peculiar because 2 other boats which are 'more powerful' larger displacement boats from the same/similar period are apparently designed for 8M. So its all a bit of a puzzle.

Well there is even a 4mR (one of 2 existing) in Marstall at EBBE Boatyard.

A quite famous 9mR (in this area at least) is the LILLEVI owned by Oliver Berking (Robbe & Berking Classics).

http://www.fky.org/aktuell/Lillevi%203.jpg.gif

Another quite spectacular mR class are the 5,5.
They started out as a more practical 6mR but shortly evolved to be the playground for modern design. When the keel was shortened so much that the attached rudder was almost useless on downwind courses, the class decided to try a new approach and establishes the detachment of keel and rudder. Nowadays 5,5 are a very modern high tech class, with fin keels long rudders and peculiar hull shape and are more or less little experimental cuppers.

http://www.5.5class.org/images/aus82_myshout_medemblik_06.jpg
http://www.5.5class.org/

And don't forget the CAMBRIA. She is rated as 23mR.


By the way the 12mR world championship 2008 will take place in Flensburg!

[martin schulz]

Could also be we are talking about a 9KR.

[Don Z.]

Another quite spectacular mR class are the 5,5.
They started out as a more practical 6mR but shortly evolved to be the playground for modern design. When the keel was shortened so much that the attached rudder was almost useless on downwind courses, the class decided to try a new approach and establishes the detachment of keel and rudder. Nowadays 5,5 are a very modern high tech class, with fin keels long rudders and peculiar hull shape and are more or less little experimental cuppers.

http://www.5.5class.org/images/aus82_myshout_medemblik_06.jpg
http://www.5.5class.org/



The 5.5 metre rule and the International Rule are not related. The formulas are completely different.

[martin schulz]

The 5.5 metre rule and the International Rule are not related. The formulas are completely different.

Of course they are related, but more like grandfather and grandson, perhaps. That the formulas are different is due to the special 5.5 aproach, but they evolved out of the 6mR's. I believe it was Charles E. Nicholson who designed the 5.5 in the attempt to make the boats cheaper than the expensive 6mR class.

[Don Z.]

Of course they are related, but more like grandfather and grandson, perhaps. That the formulas are different is due to the special 5.5 aproach, but they evolved out of the 6mR's. I believe it was Charles E. Nicholson who designed the 5.5 in the attempt to make the boats cheaper than the expensive 6mR class.

The 5.5 metre rule:
0.9*((L*S^(1/2)/12/D^(1/3))+((L+S^(1/2))/4)) shall not exceed 5.500 metres
Where: L = Length for rating (rule 3)
S = Measured sail area (rule 16)
D = Displacement in cubic metres. This shall be taken as the weight
(kg) when the yacht is first measured or when it is re-weighed for
subsequent revalidation's, divided by 1025.

The International Rule:
(L + 2d - F + S^.5)/2.37 = rating in metres (2.4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 23, whichever)
Where:L = Length in metres
d = Girth difference in metres
F = Freeboard in metres
S = Sail area in square metres.

I guess they are related in that they both measure LWL and SA.

[Dan McCosh]

There are only few 9-metres. But they are a regular class. In Kiel we have the SANTANITA

Look at http://www.fky.org/prestodata/record.php4?idnr=schiffe-XAD03X1907&config=sch&mask=ext&language=eng

http://www.fky.org/yachtsportarchiv/bilder/yachtbild/CY15-82.greiser98.jpg

That seems to solve it. Still, it seems as if a 9-meter would be about 45 ft. long. --between an 8 and a 10. The boat in the clip is much smaller.

[martin schulz]

I guess they are related in that they both measure LWL and SA.

No they are related in that the 5,5 was designed by Nicholson realising that the 6mR was too expensive to race and he came up with a different formula for the 5,5. Nevertheless the basic idea was to create a boat in design close to the 6mR but without the 6mR setbacks.

The first 5,5 were still longkeel versions. Seperate rudder and fin keels were introduced later.

Perhaps our misunderstanding is that I perceive the historic "family-ties" while you are arguing about different racing formulas.

[Don Z.]

Yes, and we can also give credit to the IOD and the Dragon for also sharing a common 6mR forefather. Likewise, The Luders 24 owes a bit to the 8mR. We just can't really call any of them a Metre Rule boat...

[ingo]

There are three different metre-rules. And addionally some later derivates like the 5.5 and 5-metres. Long story...

I found another 9-metre: TAMARA IX
She is registered in the French Classic Yacht Register but from San Diego (don't ask me why...)

Her data: http://www.fky.org/prestodata/record.php4?idnr=rfbc-2179&config=sch&language=eng

[ingo]

That seems to solve it. Still, it seems as if a 9-meter would be about 45 ft. long. --between an 8 and a 10. The boat in the clip is much smaller.

45ft is about 14 metres. The boat in the photo is 15.5 metre long

[ingo]

A picture of the skipper of the 9-metre SANTANITA on board:

http://www.bm-jolle.de/9mr.jpg

[Thad]

I know it's a formula and development rule allowing for different configurations, but my impression is that the meter number generally corresponds to a waterline length, as a sort of approximation. The 9 meter boat would be in the 30' waterline group, the 12 meter more like a 40' waterline.

[Thad]

Looks like John B to me!

[John B]

He looks young and fit and like he knows what he's doing so ... no.. not me.:D
I'm much meaner and uglier .lips like razors, eyes like daggers under craggy brows formed in a permanent scowl. a voice like fingernails scratching down a blackboard.

Irresistable to women though so thats something.
(Cough splutter, yeah right)

[martin schulz]

I found another 9-metre: TAMARA IX



You didn't forget Oliver's boat, did you?

[ingo]

You didn't forget Oliver's boat, did you?

No, it's just a 6-metre. A famous one, but only a six :)