Propane Question ....

[DavesFlatsBoat]

This is a complete ignorance question, but I've never seen any cruising boats using propane as their single fuel - engine, heat, cooking.

Is this ever done?

[Nick C]

One reason might be is that it is considered a wet fuel, meaning that somehow it creates moisture when it burns. Boats have enough humidity problems.

[kulas44]

availability, simply put. I have ran trucks on propane for many years, my brother-in-law owns a propane co. so I get it wholesale, about 50 cents cheaper than retail per gallon. It would be great boat fuel if you could get it delivered to your boat. The biggest problem would be getting the delivery guy to pump it into your boats tank, (regulations and all that stuff). I have two 500 gallon house tanks that I use for motor fuel (no road tax) It is a simple matter to fill a truck, just use the pressure differential and vent the truck tank. It would be very easy to convert a boat to propane, probably a dual fuel setup (propane/gasoline) would be the way to go. You could get propane delivered to your home (no road tax) then put it in your boat. You could also switch over to gasoline if you ran outa propane.

[seedtick]

several reasons NOT to use propane on a boat. It's heavier than air, a leak underdeck would stay there until ignited by a spark. Vapor pressure of propane at 70 F is 110 psi. A small leak with a 110 pound differential would leak a lot of propane. Storage containers for propane have to be built to to hold a lot of pressure. That would make them very heavy. The propane tank would weigh almost as much as the propane in it. Even if you accept the flammability issues and can stand the weight of the tank, in very cold weather the vapor drops dramatically and you may need a heater to get enough propane out of the tank to run your boat.

[Gary E]

In boat??? Propane is heaver than air and settles in the bilge...
it also makes a real big B O O M if a spark happens...

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Propane can be a very safe and workable system. The heavier than air problem is solvable by having a system that doesn't leak and has sniffers. My family had propane for cooking and refrigeration on wooden boats for years. I have blowers on my boat for gas fumes, but I personally inspect my fuel system every year. It has solid lines, and each joint is pipe doped. It doesn't leak.

Insurance companies don't like propane, and that's that. I suspect it would be very expensive to get insurance on a propane boat. The boats that use it for cooking have outside tank storage, usually in the console for the flybridge in a powerboat.

[ 12-28-2005, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

[kulas44]

Propane is no more dangerous than gasoline, maybe less because a gasoline leak will pool in the bilge and dissapate very slowly. At least the propane can be removed with a good blower, wet gas can't. Also there is ZERO chance of an accidental spill getting in the water. The tanks do not weigh as much as the fuel. They can be made of aluminum, or even fiberglass or carbon fiber (nothing new here). All tanks must be fitted with internal safety shutoffs (federal regulations) in case a valve gets sheared off or a line breaks. They must be isolated from people spaces by a firewall (regs, again). Propane doesn't produce the same amount of power in an engine designed to run on gasoline. However, propane has a much higher octane level and will not detonate even at very high compression ratios. If an engine is built to take advantage of this(at least 13.5 to 1 c.r.), and uses the latest in electronic wet injection systems (Ford has a great setup)(wet propane injected into the intake air lowers the incoming charge temp. SUSTANTIALY, increasing volumetric efficiecy) power and economy is right up there with gasoline, sometimes even better in constant output situations, like a boat. The newest injection systems are also dual fuel compatible. Neat stuff !!!!

[emichaels]

With the millions of boats around the world, if it were a viable option in marine applications, wouldn't someone have taken advantage of the market ?

Eric

[kulas44]

Diesel is still better,

[Dan McCosh]

As an alternative to gasoline, propane has a relatively high octane and is quite clean-burning. Problem with marine use is that this puts it in competition with gas engines, which are mainly used for high-speed powerboats where the weight and complexity of the tankage is a major problem. Compared to diesel it has less BTU content, and a spark-ignition engine is inherently less efficient than a diesel to begin with, hence the fuel consumption goes up. Add to this the difficulty of finding the stuff on the waterfront, and it's not too practical. CNG would also make a good engine fuel, but the tankage issue is still problematic.

[ssor]

Jerry cans lashed to the rail are rather convenient and easy to use when refilling the diesel tank. Besides you can load one on a bike and carry it back to the boat.

[emichaels]

Besides all this other stuff, you can run a diesel on veggie oil !

[ssor]

I wonder if you could use bacon fat, just have to keep it melted. :D

[emichaels]

Originally posted by ssor:
I wonder if you could use bacon fat, just have to keep it melted. :D Same issue with veggie oil in a colder climat. You have to run the engine on diesel for a warmup period and the hot water hoses heats the veggie tank to make sure the oil will flow then you switch it over. Our vet runs a diesel Mercedes on this system, buys the oil in 55 gal drums from a resturant supply place, cheap fuel.

[DavesFlatsBoat]

Thanks for the education .... now, how about heating, cooking, and engine fuel from biodiesel ... hmmmmmm

[kulas44]

I have researched this topic extensively. My conclusion is that everyone else needs to give up the idea. I can get used oil cheap, even free, it's way easy to use in a diesel engine, just add a little heat to it and a small auxillary diesel tank for warm up and pre-stop flush and it's good to go. I ran a Onan generator on plain used frying oil, no heat or anything else added, for 3 days, no problems at all. I plan to collect about 4,000 gallons next summer for boat fuel.

[Murray Campbell]

At the risk of taking the thread further off topic...

I'm hoping to do a biodiesel trial in my Dickenson stove by next month. For me though, the holy grail would be a straight vegetable oil system, maybe with a diesel fuel pre-heat and some kind of coil to heat up the veggie oil tank.

Has anyone been down this road yet and tried anything with a dickenson? I don't have a fan in mine and i hope to get away without one as i can't spare the electricity...

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

Originally posted by Gary E:
In boat??? Propane is heaver than air and settles in the bilge...
it also makes a real big B O O M if a spark happens...What Gary said...whilst propane is very common as cooking fuel, it is much more dangerous than diesel, and similarly petrol (gasoline) is not the greatest thing to have in a boat.

I would utilise propane as the best cooking fuel PURELY AS IT IS THE BEST/MOST CONVENIENT OPTION, but with all the safety checks of solenoid valves, turning off at the tank after use, etcetera. Would never touch it for either heating or propulsion. Not worth the risk, IMHO.

But that's just me...!

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

Originally posted by Murray Campbell:
At the risk of taking the thread further off topic...

I'm hoping to do a biodiesel trial in my Dickenson stove by next month. For me though, the holy grail would be a straight vegetable oil system, maybe with a diesel fuel pre-heat and some kind of coil to heat up the veggie oil tank.

Has anyone been down this road yet and tried anything with a dickenson? I don't have a fan in mine and i hope to get away without one as i can't spare the electricity...I tried running my 2.5L non-turbo land rover for a tankful last summer on supermarket vegetable oil - apart from smelling like a deep-fat frier (!) it actually ran more smoothly - but then again Dr Diesel DID design his namesake engine to run on palm oil.

Apparently the problem is the purity of veggie oil can lead to gumming up injectors and glazing problems over the longer term. Don't see why it should not work for a heater as long as it will not be more likely to go out...also it thickens in the cold, which may give you issues with flow though pipes - but you've covered that point in your post already.

[crawdaddyjim50]

Originally posted by kulas44:
I have researched this topic extensively. My conclusion is that everyone else needs to give up the idea. I can get used oil cheap, even free, it's way easy to use in a diesel engine, just add a little heat to it and a small auxillary diesel tank for warm up and pre-stop flush and it's good to go. I ran a Onan generator on plain used frying oil, no heat or anything else added, for 3 days, no problems at all. I plan to collect about 4,000 gallons next summer for boat fuel.There is a plant grown as a hedgerow in the Islands because it will grow from cuttings stuck into the ground and will grow in the poorest of soil and is very drought tolerant. It is called Jacuras Ponca I believe. It produces a seed pod that contains oil in good quantity. This oil needs no refining except filtering for solids. It will run in a unmodified diesel and has no sulphor content. Just a thought if you had a few spare acres..