Building a boat backwards

[Don Z.]

Here's a strange question to ponder, as I've found my life spending more time away from home than at home...

Suppose you wanted to build a boat. Traditionally, you'd loft, then lay a keel, etc... and when it was all together you'd make the masts, the fittings, all the other details needed to get it ready to launch.

The problem with that is, based on occupation, I've spent only one of the last five years actually in my house. I don't see that changing a lot any time soon, and I know that when it does, there are so many other projects that will need to be done.

Then, of course, after spending years a-building, there would be more time as you moved to the fitting out stage.

Suppose we were to reverse it a bit. Suppose one were to start by counting all the blocks and cleats in the rigging plan, and worked on those first. Then make the spars, including bowsprit. From there, fashion a tiller, unless the boat requires a wheel. If that's what it needs, build that. Once all the little stuff is done, move on to the lofting and the keel laying. When the hull is done, all the "parts" are there for fitting out. Does this make any sense at all?

I guess I'm thinking it's similar to spending years scrounging hardware before building. Some things could not be done without the hull (no cabin soles, no gratings, no rigging. Perhaps dorade boxes or skylights... but you would need them handy in order to fit them into the deck.

How many projects are there that are "hull complete", before a builder loses interest?

Just wondering on a Sunday afternoon...

[Dolly Varden]

I would still do the lofting first even if you dont start on the hull.

The lofting can be used for a multitude of rough fittings, patterns, and seeing what parts are going to look like prior to actually having the hull in hand

Dutch

[ 01-22-2006, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Dolly Varden ]

[Billy Bones]

Hiya Don Z! Haven't seen you around much these days.

I once thought that my study-plan wanderlust might be reined in a bit if I built some of the specific bits of a particular boat first, like the centerboard and its case, in my spare time. By building components as time allowed, the overall workshop burden could be minimized, I reasoned, since the hull could be built, components then could be installed, and often tedious fiddling time would be kept to a minumum.

Didn't work. I sold a beautiful transom of one boat for next to nothing, and the centerboard and case of another for about a quarter the materials value.

Your mileage may vary but I eventually arrived at a convergence of design decision, need, economy, shop availability and ready cash and jammed out my first boat accordingly.

Good luck

[Wiley Baggins]

That's an interesting proposition. I think (and I'm sure you know) the biggest factor is your personality. Is a boat built from scratch something you'll want to complete or would you rather restore an existing boat or finish out a bare hull? The second is your confidence that your wants won't change between the start of the project and its ultimate completion. A hedge against minor rather than dramatic change is to build only items that will be useable on any boat that you can reasonably foresee wanting to build. Components of the specificity and magnitude Billy Bones referenced with his transom might not be as prudent as the blocks, cleats, and dorade boxes you referenced. The skylight(s) might be pushing it a bit and I think the spars might be as well. Hatches might be a reasonable pre-fab item, though. As I said, an interesting proposition.

[Bruce Hooke]

One thing to think about is will the seamingly endless work on small parts wear you down and sap your energy more if done before there is a hull in the works than it would after you've got the hull built. Once you've got a hull built you might find it easier to push through the detail stuff because you will see the light at the end of the tunnel. Just something to think about. As someone else said, it depends on your personality.

[Ken Hutchins]

I think it is partly a good idea, the finished small parts can be an incentive to work on the hull. What I'm doing because my boat is a large project is working on the small stuff mostly during the winter and bad weather days. The small stuff I work in the basement heated shop and leave to large work in the fresh air boat shed for the good weather. With a little luck all the small things will be finished at just about the same time as the completed hull. Also sometimes one just feels like splicing lines, making blocks, deadeyes, or patterns for castings instead of doing things on the hull. smile.gif

[J. Dillon]

Knowing your occupation , it's a good idea. It helps the dream stay alive. I think it was a great cruiser from Argentina ( forget the name ) that started with just the compass and went on from there. Good luck & BTW thanks.

JD

[RodB]

I think the design itself can answer some of your questions or rather how the plans are supplied... For example John Hesp (john@hespj.plus.com) , the designer of the cutter "Hope" supplies plans that do not really require lofting (they are already computer lofted with extreme accuracy) offering the advantage of building many components prior to framing the hull, thus minimizing the amount of time you actually require a boatbuilding structure...as you would only require the full sized structure/shed when you began to actually assemble the hull.

John sites this as one of the great advantages of his designs...that you can get so much work done before the actual hull is assembled.
This offers lots of advantages and many designers are starting to offer pre-computer lofted designs. As time progresses one could say that really complete plans for building a design would be provided computer lofted, thus you would be supplied with exact instructions to build a particular craft...nothing left to chance...complete information to build from.

The basic frame laminating/bulkhead construction x, y coordinate table...
http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126814534.jpg

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126814530.jpg

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126814531.jpg

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126814525.jpg

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126814524.jpg

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126821162.jpg
http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126814521.jpg

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126814520.jpg

RB

[ 01-22-2006, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

A few more photos of "Hope"

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126819099.jpg

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126820742.jpg

http://pic15.picturetrail.com:80/VOL595/4284825/9007612/126820743.jpg

RB

[JimConlin]

For me, it would be difficult to work that way.

In building something, whether software, boat or house, I tend to start with the general shape of the thing, its skeleton and key structural elements, and progress from the skeletal, 'big picture' start toward the minutiae of the eventual full implementation. The detailed makeup and layout of hardware comes very late in the game and that's good because i've had a long time to be thinking about the details. There's great value to being able to put your body in the actual cockpit before determining where that winch or cleat should be located.

[RodB]

Although I would like the foolproof method above in building a boat I must agree with Jim as to the order of things is important to either your psyche or your personality. How I see organization would make me want to see the entire structure go together and then all the various accessory systems. . . but building the basic hull and interior bulkheads per Hesp's methodology above would be fine. Working on blocks, cleats, rigging etc would, to my mind, come at the end.

RB

[Dolly Varden]

Originally posted by JimConlin:
[QB]For me, it would be difficult to work that way.

In building something, whether software, boat or house, I tend to start with the general shape of the thing, its skeleton and key structural elements, and progress from the skeletal, 'big picture' start toward the minutiae of the eventual full implementation./QB]thats what lofting is about

Dutch

[ 01-22-2006, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Dolly Varden ]

[JimConlin]

thats what lofting is about
As a loftsman/draftsman, i am not skillful enough to be able to envision/feel the ergonomics of a space on paper or the lofting floor.
Right now. i have a boat whose cockpit is structurally complete and i can (weather permitting) sit in it and test how readly to hand the various sheets will fall, whether a winch handle will poke someone in the back, etc.
There are still LOTS of details in my project to be worked out, but i'm convinced that, at my skill level, I'd be wrong to box myself in before i needed to. Though i've had the locust for a couple of years, I am deliberately saving until the very last the shaping of the tiller. There's some art in this.

[pipefitter]

It's the hull shape that you fell in love with in the first place in front of your eyes as real that helps motivate.Then you get to sit in it and imagine and all the while with time to think about where you want things.Time to maybe come across more sales and bargains on parts/hardware you do need that are not so crucial to the bulk of the work.I ended up with a free outboard motor out of the waiting to finish. I also built all my small parts on the bad weather days.Sure beats cabin fever.

[Thorne]

I found it easier to restore a small traditionally-built pulling boat and rig it for sail -- sort of a warm-up for building one from scratch, but great for acquiring the necessary tools and skills.

http://www.luckhardt.com/dory1.html

You might consider doing something like that while you ponder the perfect design and wonder how you will find the time and money to built it.

;=0 )

(edited to add:) Not to rain on your 'build from scratch' parade, just reading between the lines of your original post where you seemed to be saying that you weren't home long enough to build a boat completely.

[ 01-23-2006, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[RodB]

Don Z...

What are you going to build?

RB

[Don Z.]

Originally posted by RodB:
Don Z...

What are you going to build?

RBWell... I'm vacillating a bit, but.

B. B. Crowninshield schooner, 40', designed in 1911 for his own use...

[skuthorp]

I'm building a smaller boat that way, an Outred Elf. Spars and blocks, rudder, and most of the internal fittings at least part finished. Stem and stern laminated but not finished of course. I had to wait for space to build the hull. It's worked for me but with a bigger boat I don't know. Circumstances change, health, employment, partners, children. It's a risk with such a long term project.

[RodB]

Hey Don,

How about some pictures or drawings?

RB

[Don Z.]

[ 01-24-2006, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Don Z. ]

[Don Z.]

Well, this is the sister ship... Actually, it's the original, I'd be building the sister...

http://www.psc.edu/~deerfiel/Photos03/Chi03/ch103-2-7-17_thumb.jpg

Edited to add a link to the bigger picture:
Schooner in ludicrous size (http://www.psc.edu/~deerfiel/Photos03/Chi03/ch103-2-7-17.jpg)

[ 01-24-2006, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Don Z. ]

[RodB]

Looks great but the pix is pretty small... any line drawings of the hull...

RB

[Don Z.]

Originally posted by RodB:
Looks great but the pix is pretty small... any line drawings of the hull...

RBI have a set of lines drawings, but I haven't scanned them in yet. They can be found in the January, 1911 issue of The Rudder...

[RodB]

Looks as pretty as Malabar II.

RB

[kc8pql]

Nice boat. Mine's about the same size. Build the hull first if you really want to finish. As time goes on, having that big thing that you've already put so much into sitting there, and the fact that everybody you know (and a lot of people you don't) are going to start every conversation with "How's the boat coming?" will keep you motivated.

[RodB]

I spent about 3 years completing my 18 foot skiff and that was losing about 8 months with foot surgery. I got a little tired of folks asking "whens that boat was going to be finished..."

I got to where I just answered, "when its done"...rather than give any kind of explanation as to where I was in the process. I was determined to follow the plan of the original concept and never cut out anything or took any shortcuts. I'm glad now and am totally happy with the end results.

RB

[JimD]

RodB, Hope is truly, really, extremely beautiful.

[TomMcKinney]

I think it is a great way to go. That way many of the small details won't get rushed at the end. In his book on rebuilding fiberglass boats Don Casey points out that one should do the hard stuff with the least reward first, when the enthusiasm is high, and save the "low hanging fruit" for later. In addition, many will note that the hull is just the start, especiallly in cost. Think about paibting- the painting part is easy-- applying the stuff with a roller. etc.--and it looks so goo so quickly- the hard part is the prep, sand, fill sand, prime,sand sand and more sanding etc . . . .

[Wild Dingo]

Originally posted by Don Z.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RodB:
Don Z...

What are you going to build?

RBWell... I'm vacillating a bit, but.

B. B. Crowninshield schooner, 40', designed in 1911 for his own use...</font>[/QUOTE]This twould be none other than Fame eh Don? GREAT CHOICE!!! :cool:

One that I myself have more often than I wish to remember drooled over! Thanks to Thad I also have the plans and prior to the great washout of 2005 also had the offsets now alas I only have the plans (a replacement set sent courtesy of Thad) but without the offsets unable to be built or considered for building... :(

But truely mate a fine boat to be considering :cool:

Oh and that doesnt look like any of the photos ive seen previously of Fame... Soooo I know Fame was built for his own use and still sails Boston waters (I think) if not Fame then which?

[Donn]

<img src= "http://www.psc.edu/~deerfiel/Photos03/Chi03/ch103-2-7-17.jpg" width= "947" height= "634">

[Don Z.]

Originally posted by kc8pql:
[QB(and a lot of people you don't) are going to start every conversation with "How's the boat coming?" will keep you motivated.[/QB]Just to be clear... it's not a question of motivation. It's more of a case of phone calls at odd hours, with information like "The good news is, the President sends his greetings. The bad news is, he's asked you to go to {fill in the blank} for a year."

I'm not complaining. They've not asked me to go anyplace more dangerous than downtown New Orleans, which is good. But I think the payback for the current trip is going to be huge.

Ah well... at least it will get me to two Woodenboat shows in a row!

No, motivation is not the issue. That's there in spades. It's much more a time related thing.

Shane... Fame has been on Lake Michigan for years. That photo is with Chicago in the background. There's an interesting story to it, I wish I could find the link. Short answer is they were sailing her one night, and the boat sank, with all standing. She landed "flat", which meant six days later they could see the mast heads, so they raised her, made repairs, and she still swims.

A Malabar would be nice. One of the reasons I want this one is that I want to learn how to sail a schooner, and I think Fame is about as small as one can go and be useful. We'll see!

[ 01-25-2006, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: Don Z. ]

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Don Z.:

No, motivation is not the issue. That's there in spades. [/QB]Motivation is never a problem in the beginning. It becomes an issue when you're five years into it and realise that you're only half way done.

[RodB]

I'm really glad I worked on a smaller project first (my 18 foot flyfishing flat skiff) as you get to experience all the elements of planning, conceptualizing, building, and finishing a boat thus you become much more aware of what to expect in a larger project. Also you have very realistic expectations and perceptions of whats to come, and can make a more informed decision on what scale of task you want to embark on.

Theres some truth that it could be a smart thing getting some of the mundane things out of the way at the first, when your really motivated to the max. . . and projects do run on and your motivation ebbs and flows over time. Even when it gets as they say 95% done, the other 5% can take a lot of time as the finishing is tedious and cannot be rushed. My boat designer said there was an old statement that had a great ring of truth..."My boats about 95% completed...just another 95% to go".

RB

[bamamick]

Will you be keeping the 8? Sorry if that's too personal.

Mickey Lake

[J. Dillon]

Rod B.,

Your boat is certainly a beauty as well as the posted pix. Thanks.

A question, I'm building a model a bit like your boat and intend to put in ventilators one on the fwd. hatch and two aft on the cabin. I notice no sort of ventilation on "Hope". Is this deliberate and if so is it a bit stuffy below ? I'm sure you designed ventilation in but could you tell how you did it ?

JD

[RodB]

J. Dillon,

I did't build "Hope", the photos are of John Hesps boat, that he built as the method shown. He also designed a 25 foot trailerable model and a 30 footer. Hope has always been at the top of my list of great non-trailerable boats to build.

As far as particulars on "Hope" email John Hesp at: john@hespj.plus.com

RB

[ 01-27-2006, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Jack C]

I think SOME of the small parts can be built in the early stages, but not all. Once you get toward the end of construction, many of those small parts, like rudders, tillers, and so forth, need to match what was built. And there are enough oopses and ohsh$ts and notquiterights during the process that "what was built" doesn't exactly match the plans. The risk is those small parts not fitting. Which means you will be making them twice.

As for homebuilt hulls for sale, not many people understand the enormity of building a boat. They pick something "they really like" that is too big, and once they hit burn out only the hull is finished. The trick is to pick a design so when you hit that burn-out point the boat is ready to splash.

Jack

[Sailor]

Lots of sage advice here from both sides of the fence. I tend to think about building the "small parts" while saving for the rest as well.... to a certain extent. I am currently building a canoe. 18 foot redbird from Ted moore's canoecraft. My father built her at 17'6" as did my brother.I once too a trip with my father and brother and there just wasn't enough displacement to hold all our gear. I decided to extend the hull in the center by adding one inch to the middle stations to add the 6". Before begining the hull I still went to school and lived at my parent's place when not away for "Formal Education" upon graduation I joined the navy and now have a home with a 40x30 foot barn in which to build away. At my parent's place I started on the "Small Things" Last night I finished setting up the moulds on the newly levelled strongback. I already had the moulds and strongback only they were dissasembled. I have moulds ready for planking and stems that are ready for glue and shaping. There are handles, seats, a yoke (That needs to be redone. I built it too long. That's the problem with building the hull last) Enthusiasm is still there though. She is a precursor to another project in mind. Catspaw. also a precursor to another project. That is assuming I am comfortable with my woodworking skills at this point I will begin a large yacht for retirement, cruising and relaxing. I have no delusions about the time it will take to build. ( I see 20 years just in time for retirement) and I see the time required as a way to "mortgage" the vessel or amortise the cost. So.... Practice small, feel out what you're comfortable with then move on to what you really want. Without disillusioning yourself as to what you can bite off and still chew.
Any thoughts??

[Ken Hutchins]

The bigger the project the more oportunities for making various parts long before they are needed, I don't think I would want a completed hull waiting for thousands of hours of work to be done on small items. Here are some examples of parts I've got done, like all the dead eyes, the lanyards which have the Mathew Walker knots and the whipping on the ends, here also is 2 of the 40 blocks, the thimbles, belaying pins made more than needed so I will find other uses for the spares such as hanging up lines in a storage locker perhaps for hanging up foul weather gear then when I accidently loose one overboard I will be able to find a replacement real quick. Heck I even purchased the upholstry material for the interior way back when I was milling the wood for the hull. Every item checked off as complete is inspiration to work on the major stuff, it's all got to be done sooner or later. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p7cc129892a6d681d648b6c9dc131055b/f0509c79.jpg