Douglas Fir questions

[capefox]

1.) For a boat that will be trailered 80% of the time versus left in the water, why not use 3/8 - 5/8 thick Douglas-Fir lumber for planking and structural components in lapstrake boats? It's supposed to be decently rot resistant and I wonder, if with generous steaming, the the green lumber can be steam-bent where the curves are not extreme. (DF is very cheap here.)

2.) How do you get 3/8, 1/2, or 5/8 in. thick Douglas-Fir for planking. No lumber yards here in the Rocky Mountains have anthing thinner than 3/4 or 1 in. thick. Planing one third of a board away seems like a big waste of material, and how can you saw a 1in. thick board into two 1/2 in. thick planks?

Thanks

[kc8pql]

2.) How do you get 3/8, 1/2, or 5/8 in. thick Douglas-Fir for planking.

You resaw it yourself on a bandsaw. If you need 1/2" planks, resaw 5/4 material. The saw kerf will take 1/16 to 3/32".

[Bob Cleek]

The main reason you wouldn't use Doug fir in a small lapstrake boat is because of its weight, which isn't huge, but surely more than, say, yellow cedar. Also, unless you get really clear Doug fir, you will inevitably run into problems with knots when fairing your faying surfaces. You have to do a lot of fitting with lapstrake and so the easier the wood is to plane, the better. Doug fir has a lot of variation in quality, ring tightness and so on. You want tight grained clear stuff, if you can find it. Also, make sure it is Doug fir. There's a lot of "white wood" out there that isn't, but some yards won't know the difference, or tell you. No problem with trailering, of course.

Ditto to the above. You are better off resawing the stuff anyway, then running it through a thickness planer. That way you can loft a single plank out of thick stuff and then cut in in half and have two planks, port and starboard. For planking, you should get flitch cut stock, with the bark still on it. It's a lot cheaper and if it has any sweep to it, you will find it much easier to get planks out of it with less waste.

I don't know what you mean by a slight bend. If you're thinking of frames in a small boat, or even a larger one, Doug fir really isn't bending stock. You can steam a plank now and then for a tough spot, but you won't be able to bend frames with it. Good all around wood for boatbuilding, thought, as long as it's boat building grade Doug fir.

[capefox]

By bending I'm thinking of the ability to serve as planking. thanks for your advice

[Thorne]

My Chamberlain dory skiff is fir over oak frames, built by the SF Maritime Museum boatbuilding class in '94. Heavy, yes -- but that has a lot of benefits when sailing. I wouldn't think twice about building another lapstrake boat using clear fir, unless weight was a critical factor.

Out here White Oak is cheaper than clear Doug Fir, so why not use it for framing if the prices are similar in your location? The frames take a lot of strain and have to hold fasteners really well, which WO will do better than DF...


http://www.luckhardt.com/wooded1.jpg

http://www.luckhardt.com/scraper1.jpg

http://www.luckhardt.com/final-fulllength.jpg

[Lew Barrett]

Another Doug Fir thread.

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=60734&highlight=douglas+fir

[Bob Smalser]

Getcher wood handbooks out and you'll find the weight difference and seasonal movement differences between DF and the heavy cedars like AYC, POC, Eastern Red and Spanish Cedar is small. It's almost kind of silly to spend 7 bucks a bf for AYC or POC when you gain so little over 2 bucks a bf Doug Fir. DF is almost identical in weight to Baldcypress and Sassafras.

But DF is stronger and harder, in addition to heavier. You can use planks thinner than specified for cedar, and make up some of the weight difference. For either lapstrake or carvel, get out one plank in 5/4, then resaw and plane to get a matched plank for each side.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3223936/39972445.jpg

The down side of DF is seasonal movement and not being either as rot resistant or the pleasure to work cedar is. Shortcuts you can get away with using H. Mahog or WRC will come back to bite you using DF. Riftsawn or qsawn stock and narrow strakes are called for. The upside to that is 25" is about the minimum size log milled, and unlike with smaller trees, VG stock is easy to produce. Wide DF strakes are more likely to split than with a more stable wood like H Mahog or the light cedars like Western Red, Northern White and Atlantic White.

[donald branscom]

Getcher wood handbooks out and you'll find the weight difference and seasonal movement differences between DF and the heavy cedars like AYC, POC, Eastern Red and Spanish Cedar is small. It's almost kind of silly to spend 7 bucks a bf for AYC or POC when you gain so little over 2 bucks a bf Doug Fir.

But DF is stronger and harder, in addition to heavier. You can use planks thinner than specified for cedar, and make up some of the weight difference. For either lapstrake or carvel, get out one plank in 5/4, then resaw and plane to get a matched plank for each side.

This makes me think of George Beulher boats. Hope i spelled that correctly.

[Bob Cleek]

Smalser has a good point there. The cost of Alaskan yellow or Port Orford makes Doug fir more attractive.

[dmede]

I belive Arques in Sausalito uses DF for some planking. And I think the NW School of Wooden Boat Building lists a few boats that have DF for planks as well.

No experience usig it for planking but I love it as a substitute for WO in structural parts.

[pcford]

It's almost kind of silly to spend 7 bucks a bf for AYC or POC when you gain so little over 2 bucks a bf Doug Fir. DF is almost identical in weight to Baldcypress and Sassafras.



If you can get AYC for $7 and air dried DF for $2, I would advise you to buy plenty. You can make a bundle. Two hours ago, Edensaw quoted 8/4 AYC at $11 and DF at $9. Seems like I paid substantially more recently for AYC at retail...$13 I think. (Home Builders in Seattle.)

[Bruce Hooke]

The cheaper prices were probably for buying direct from the guy who milled it rather than from lumberyards. Of course going direct to the guy who milled it works best if you are looking for lumber that grows in your area (or close enough to your area to make it viable).

[Spokaloo]

pcford, try looking at Hood Lumber (a mill that does some retail) in Oregon. DF prices are similar to what Smalser said.

E

[pcford]

pcford, try looking at Hood Lumber (a mill that does some retail) in Oregon. DF prices are similar to what Smalser said.

E

Are we talking about boat lumber now or just doug fir sticks? I would be very, very surprised if you can buy doug fir boat lumber at $2 bf. That's less than 25% of what it goes for at a specialty lumber place here in Seattle. Not a high priced woodworking "enthusiasts" boutique. It would be nice if I were wrong, but I don't think so.

Can't find the Hood Lumber mentioned above.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Geesh, You guys are killing me with your price quotes for D fir.

I paid over $5.00 a BD ft at Maine Coast lumber recently for VCG.

Best price locally.

[pcford]

Geesh, You guys are killing me with your price quotes for D fir.

I paid over $5.00 a BD ft at Maine Coast lumber recently for VCG.

Best price locally.

I checked with one of my colleagues in the business. He said he can get AYC as low as $4.50, but this in some quantity, (100s BF), direct from mill and with squirrels removed but no drying.

In smallish quantities expect to pay around $10BF for high quality air-dried DF and AYC.

[djswan]

Did someone say Doug-Fir? Skunk Cedar? The prices of all softwoods are inflated because of import taxes on Canadian softwoods. Just adding some food for thought.:)

Derek

[Frederick Bolton]

Hi Capefox,

Frederick here, a fellow Rocky Mountain first time boat builder. I too was first looking for quality doug fir because I know we grow some very nice stock here in Colorado. What I found was that most lumber suppliers were carrying what they call doug fir, but is actually Hem-fir. It is much softer, very white and even grained, but almost no rot Resistance. I have used it in other applications around my farm and it doesn't last long. Can't imagine it would be good for boats.

I did find a local supplier that could order vertical grain free of heart real doug fir, but my diamond level credit card only has a 50,000 dollar limit so I opted out of that. I had almost given up when I found some excellent old stock Western Red Cedar. Very nice wood and lighter than DF. I am currently starting my boat using it. So far I love working with it and I believe it is going to make a fine boat.

You might consider WRC instead of DF. I know that the good quality DF can be found, but price will scare you to death.

Good luck, maybe we can share pictures as we construct our boats. What part of the Rockies are you in?

[Bob Smalser]

The best way to buy boat wood is to back your pickup up to a local mill capable of riftsawing and offbear those run-of-the-mill boards straight into your truck. Or the closest you can come to that. Then sort and season it yourself. It doesn't go bad stacked and stickered and you'll find a use for all of it if you're a woodworker. Less than a pickup load, specifying all clear, all VG or both, will drive your price way up, because someone has to offbear, sort and stack it, and then instead of the customer having a few poor, utility-grade boards to use as formwork or bearers, the sawyer winds up with whole stacks of them that will never sell. You pay for those utility-grade boards one way or the other, might as well have a few to use for your money.

Lumber prices are way down all over the country right now. None of us locals are selling DF logs yet this year, because the current price is around 37 cents a bf in the log, when I like to get 80 cents or better for export-grade logs. Western Red Cedar isn't much better at around 70 cents when I like to get $1.20. And I have a 70,000lb load of WRC trees waiting, too.

Accordingly, The Home Depot today in Silverdale has a nice stack of 16' Doug Fir 2x6's somebody special ordered. Too bad I didn't have the camera. Around 500bf of S-GRN with no other grade marks, but the usual run-of-the-mill mix of Select, No 1 and No 2 boards. That means "surfaced green", which means this stock never even passed under the shade of a kiln. ROTM stock, but from good logs....about a third of the boards were vertical grain, and about a third clear. A few 4-ringers, but mostly 8 rings or better, especially the riftsawn boards. The price? 80 cents a bf delivered to the customer. You wouldn't waste a fourth of that stack highgrading it into boat wood, and what you did waste you could use for non-boat projects. The mill was Boise Cascade.

[Frederick Bolton]

I agree with Bob. The best way is to back up your truck and load it at the mill. I saw that picture Bob in another thread of your truck loaded with nice wood. It made me jealous. We have a raw log mill here, and this summer, I may do just that. Back my truck up and load it up, stack it and wait. Something tells me that if my first boat turns out half way decent that it won't be my last. But for now, this overlooked supply of left over WRC stock that I found is just what I was looking for. It seems to be just like anything else I have every done, you have to keep a lookout for the whatt you need when you really don't need it. Otherwise, you pay through the nose.

[pcford]

The best way to buy boat wood is to back your pickup up to a local mill <snips>

Could you suggest a few of these local mills in western Washington?

[Bob Smalser]

Could you suggest a few of these local mills in western Washington?

Both run large sawmills on site with employees. Both know wooden boats. Both can package and ship. Both have access to the best old-growth available. Larry has shorter to travel to get it. Wagner imports tropicals in addition to native woods, has a lot of experience in major boat projects, kilns wood as required, and runs a vacuum kiln for his music wood operation. Neither is a retail operation selling a few boards at a time.

Pete Wagner
Pacific Western Timbers
8000 Imperial Way, Port Orchard, WA
360-674-2700

McClananhan Lumber, Inc. Larry McClananhan
P.O. Box 1483, Forks, WA 98331
Phone: (360) 374-5887 Fax: (360) 374-5800

But in quantity, the best priced old-growth I've seen came from this family in BC...the price break over Edensaw was more than enough to pay the freight. They like to sell it in cants for resawing:

Queen Charlotte Island Boat Lumber
PO Box 293
Port Clements BC V0T 1R0
250-557-4282
obrien@qcislands.net

There are also plenty of other small sawyers with stack yards around here. Just not as easy to contact, working at it full-time, as reliable, or all of the above. Cedar Products Company in Bremerton imports nicely-priced WRC from BC, catering to the fence industry, but I've seen some nice boat wood there in both Western Red and Incense Cedar sold as WR.

[Matt-MN]

I love threads like this one. I find them facinating but they remind me how much I don't know about wood. I didn't grow up around woodworkers so I'm trying to play catch up here. Where is a good place to learn some of what is discussed in this thread? Is the book 'Understanding Wood" sold by our hosts a good resource? I think I really need "Lumberyard for Dummies" at this point.

Thanks
Matt

[djswan]

I love threads like this one. I find them facinating but they remind me how much I don't know about wood. I didn't grow up around woodworkers so I'm trying to play catch up here. Where is a good place to learn some of what is discussed in this thread? Is the book 'Understanding Wood" sold by our hosts a good resource? I think I really need "Lumberyard for Dummies" at this point.

Thanks
Matt

Dr. Hoadly's books are very good. Most wood books reference the USDA 1972 Wood as an Engineering Material. If you went the www.tfguild.org (http://www.tfguild.org) you can download the book for free. It's a must have for wood knowledge.

Derek

[Woody Woodside]

A wee snippet to add to Bob's bit on the local mills, is that Petes Pacific Western Timbers can give you sticks around seventy feet in length if you you need some over the lumber yard stuff. No idea what shipping would be like if you are not local.