Generators

[Katherine]

My parents live out in the Styx and would like to get a back up generator large enough to power the furnace and well pumps. Since they're not much for the computer, I've been charged with researching it. They'd like to get a propane powered one because gas and diesel gum up if they don't get used on a more frequent basis then this thing would get run. Any ideas on what size to look at and where to start researching?

[bamamick]

not of the type that have to endure a Michigan winter. Someone will be along to help soon, though.

Mickey Lake

[Norman Bernstein]

Katherine,

3-4 kW should do it, presuming they've identified just the furnace and pumps as the items they want to keep alive through a power outage.

The generators aren't all that expensive, but the wiring, by a licensed electrician, to make it easy to switch over from utility power to generator power, can cost a few bucks.

Some people 'cheat' on this. I'll tell you how it's done, if you promise to insist that your parents do NOT do this! Most furnaces usually have an outlet box installed on the side, often used to power humidifiers or dehumidifiers, and/or the condensation pumps associated with air conditioning or dehumidification. The 'cheaters' make up a power cord with plugs on BOTH ends... in the event of a power failure, they first open the breaker associated with the furnace, and then plug one end of the cheater cord into the furnace outlet, and the other into the generator.

As I indicated, this is NOT advisable.... if they fail to turn the furnace breaker off, and power comes back on, there's the potential for some disaster... also, a double-ended power cord with plugs on both ends is dangerous, itself.... it's easy to forget that it might be 'live'.

Anyhow, the generator ought to be sized for the furnace and pump loads, plus a generous margin. Presuming they will have a proper switchover installed by a licensed electrician, they could size it up to provide for a few lighting circuits, as well as the refrigerator.... the incremental difference in generator cost might not be all that large. I suspect that an average house can be fully powered, with the exception of A/C, on a 7kW or 8kW genset.

[paladin]

Katherine....yer gonna need more info....
On the furnace...you need to know the continuous run current drain and start-up current drain....same for the well motor........then figure that they probably want the refrigerator and freezer to run...maybe the tv.
The current drain for the fridge will be low compared to compressor start up drain.....add all the currents together for continuous drain....say 35 anps...then figure the start-up drains....maybe 50 amps.....the generator would be based on 120 volts (110 or 117 nominal) times the current (4200 watts) times 5% (4410 watts) so you would need a 4500 watt generator with a 120 volts times 50 amps equeals 6000 watt surge plus 5% margin equals a 6500 watt surge or momentary rating......then you should really rig a 120/220 volt relay to the main power box to transfer just the base requirements to the generator, and when the power comes back the load will transfer......there would be no problems if they would systematically turn off all unnecessary lights and accessories around the house when the generator is running...

if you want, I can run off the charts that I use for determining power requirements for floating homes.....that's how you size the engine/generator requirements.

[merlinron]

propane might be a liitle more convenient,fuel storage-wise, but on a generator, with a limited supply of fuel (as in, bad weather, heater going strong and the lights go out with only 25% in the lp tank) an lp generator will eat that up quickly. generator motors are under load most of thier run time, remember and lp engines under load aren't very fuel efficient. you will see big natural gas engined generators at commercial buildings, but the fuel supply there is pretty much unlimited and if they are propane, they are hooked up to 1000's of gallons. when you say they are "shticks" how isolated are they? they may be better off with a small honda and couple 5 gallon cans of gas, they'll run all day on a 3 gallon tank full.

[Norman Bernstein]

The trick to keeping a gas or diesel generator 'ready' is 1) run it every month or two, for 20-30 minutes, at least until it reaches operating temperature, and 2) add a fuel stabilizer to the gas. Most people who own snowblowers will attest that they start up readily, as long as they get a little periodic 'excercise', and as long as the fuel has had some stabilizer added.

[George Ray]

Honda inverter technology generators are the cats meow. Seems to be a top choice of RV folks.
You can parallel them to increase output. I run two 2KW units for total of 4KW and run compressor or small welding machines. It's the starting current that get you when sizing for a generator. Pay close attention to Paladin's advice/comments.
When/if one dies you are back to 2KW until repairs are finished.
They make 1KW, 2KW, and 3KW. All can be paralleled (Honda only supports paralleling same size units but RV'ers report mix and match with no problems. They have a carb bowl drain to help if they are stored for long periods.
I have total of (3) 2KW@47lbs/ea, and (1) 1KW@27lbs/ea.

Best place to buy seems to be:
http://mayberrys.com/honda/generator/html/invertgenerator.htm
(I bought three of my four units from them.)
http://mayberrys.com/honda/generator/Images/inverter/eu1000i.gif
http://mayberrys.com/honda/generator/Images/inverter/eu2000.gif
http://mayberrys.com/honda/generator/Images/inverter/eu3000is.gif

[Katherine]

They have talked about having it plumbed into the hous's gas supply or at least setting it up so it could quickly hook in. One thing Dad knows how to do is take care of a diesel engine. The problem is Mom doesn't. She needs a fairly simple set up since most of the crap happens when Dad's away.

[paladin]

Personally, I would address Normans remarks on the fuel.....Gasoline is a better alternative in most situations.......I would use caution on the fuel stabilizer. If the fuel is not consumed in a year or two, it should be discarded and fresh fuel placed in the tanks. The fuel stabilizer can be added twice in 12 months, but thereafter it may cause problems. You will lose octane ratings no matter how well sealed the tank, and microscopic critters will still grow in the fuel with the stabilizer added. The generator tank is best kept empty if possible, and the fuel tank filled when you are rerady to run the machine....or add fresh fuel at each use, burn at least half of it out, then replenish the fuel, and make sure that you run the generator at least once a month. Fuel was my worst problem. I did not use the engine often enough, my towed generator kept the batteries topped off, and I had (initially) a 50 gal. fuel tank and most of it was used as stove fuel...

[jack grebe]

Check out a few "Onan" generators for Motor homes. A 6.5 kw would be more than enough for most homes and can be gotten in gas/diesel/ or propane. You will want to go larger rather than smaller and finding out you are to small at the wrong time will not be fun

[Bob Adams]

I cheat too. Before starting the 5kw diesel genny that I back feed from the garage, I shut off the main breakers along with all the high amperage stuff. A properly installed transfer switch would certainly be a better idea. The genset is run every few months for "exercise".

[paladin]

all military generators are run for 3 hours at least once a month, and most on two week cycles.......seems to work well....

[Paul Pless]

Katherine, each of my kennel buildings has an emergency backup electrical outlet next to its main breaker panel. We simply plug the generator into the outlet which feeds directly into the main breaker panel through an intermediary panel which locks pwer from 'flowing' back into the utility grid. The generator then supplies power to the entire panel of breakers leaving you to decide which switches to turn on and off as needed. Not a lot of extra wiring really.

We use both permanently installed and portable Onans. The system has been up for over ten years and we've had no problems at with it. We end up using it about once per year for two to three days, usually do to a winter storm, but also during the week after Katrina.

[Rick Tyler]

Permanently installed = big bucks.
Over 6-8kw = big bucks.
Honda = big bucks.

I have a 4kw Generac on which I run a 25 cu ft fridge, a gas furnace, and some lights in the family room and bedroom. With the switching panel, which I installed myself, the whole installation was about $850. It's probably a little underpowered for the start-up drain of the fridge when the furnace is going, and I understand the risk of damaging motors running in an under-voltage condition, but even when the fridge and furnace are both running the lights don't dim, and the power meter on the switch box doesn't show more than 20 amps. YMMV. We get about 8-10 hours on 2-1/2 gallons of gas (although I've never tried to measure it with any real accuracy).

If you plumb into natural gas, it won't work if the natural gas service is disrupted. This is a big deal here in earthquake land, but maybe not so much in the snow belt.

When our power went out for six days in the windstorm in December, we ran this generator for about 16 hours a day. Started every time, and worked a treat. We have about 125 hours on it now, so it's getting treated to a trip to the generator shop for a once-over.

[Mrleft8]

Take a look at WWW.Northerntool.com

[oldsub86]

I have one of these.

http://www.generac-portables.com/generators/generator.cfm?id=197&use=&price=&wattage=&order=3

But I would really like to have a setup like this.

http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html

Randy

[Ron Joslin]

Katherine, due to the hurricanes down in Florida my Mom has has a Gasoline powered(Briggs&Straton) Craftsman Generator from sears. Her circuitbreaker box was rebuilt so you can plug the generatior intio it which then provides power to select parts of the house.

CAUTION: This must be done right so as not to send power out into the powerline system putting someone in danger working on the downed lines.

The generator is on wheels in the garage,is big and heavy and my Mom can hardly move it around. I would like to see her have it installed in a "shed" beside the house. One more thing, my mom is not big and strong and cannot lift a full five gallon can of gasoline so I got her a bunch of small ones and she empties them into her car to avoid the old fuel thing but the last time I was there all cans where empty ,it was November , she said well the hurricane seasion is over.:rolleyes:

[rbgarr]

But I would really like to have a setup like this. http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html
Randy


That rocketboy site is great. Thanks!

[ebent05]

Katherine, I didn't have much time but found this site, at least you can get an idea of the costs. http://www.norwall.com/

Home Depot in my area has sold stand-by generators, seems like the price was approx. $2500.00 +/-.

The transfer switch is around $500.00 +/-

You need the transfer switch to prevent ( as noted by ron joslin above) feeding power back out to the main lines, and injuring/killing the person working on the line. Ed

[Dan McCosh]

They have talked about having it plumbed into the hous's gas supply or at least setting it up so it could quickly hook in. One thing Dad knows how to do is take care of a diesel engine. The problem is Mom doesn't. She needs a fairly simple set up since most of the crap happens when Dad's away.


Using the heater fuel to run a generator is a fairly common practice. If the furnace uses CNG, Propane or fuel oil, then you can use a generator that runs on CNG, Propane or diesel, respectively. This avoids the problem with diesel fuel getting stale, as well. From what I've, seen, however, such an installation done commercially costs about as much as a marine genset, which tend to be pretty steep. Without the furnace, you can get by with a small portable. We've gone a couple of days with just lights still running. Our heater doesn't take electricity, though--it's an old-fashioned gravity hot water system.

[moTthediesel]

Kathrine,

When we had the big N.E. ice storm ('96 or '97?) we were without power here in Northern NY for 21 days -- in January.

We ran our whole house (oil furnace, oil water heater, water pump, lights, etc.) off a 5k gas generator. To extend run times we put two 6 gal OMC outboard tanks up on saw horses next to the geny.

Funny how the local power Co. (Niagara Mohawk) handeled it. For the first couple of days they were on TV (if you could watch :<) telling people under no circumstance should they back feed their houses. By about the forth day, when they knew how bad things were, their spokesman was on TV showing folks how to back feed "properly"! Whenever you shut off the generator there was a buzzing in the air from all the other homes with their's running. Kind of eerie!

If your folks house dosen't have any big current electric heaters (like water heater, stove, or drier) 4 or 5 k will be all they need. Surprizing how many people here had electric stoves and so couldn't cook for all that time. So many of our friends brought turkeys over to roast in our gas oven that we were sick of turkey for a long time after.

It is a considerable expense to put a proper transfer switch in along with the generator, but it's certainly the best way to go. If you want to spend the money, you could even install an automated system that will do everything for you. A friend of mine is a caretaker for a large estate here in the Thousand Islands. During the big outage, after a day or two of struggeling to keep his own family and those of neighbors warm, he went over to check that property. Opening the door, he found that massive "camp" lighted and holding 65F with it's owners 1800 miles away in Fla. It's a crazy world --

moT

[Dan McCosh]

Might add that when the last big power outage hit for three days, we moved down to the boat at the dock. Lots of stars at night.

[brad9798]

Would that be the River Styx ... or in the sticks!

:D

[Greg Nolan]

"She needs a fairly simple set up since most of the crap happens when Dad's away."

You should check out the Generac Guardian systems. They start automatically when the power goes out, and shut down autormatically when the power is restored. They automatically run themselves off-line once a week for about 20 minutes to keep their starting battery charged. And they do the job even (or especially) when no one is home, or when the person who is home is unable/unwilling to handle the tasks of cutting the house off from the grid, connecting the generator to the house wiring, starting and stoping the generator, and reconnecting the house to the grid.

Because of the automatic circuitry, they are a bit pricey, but worth it, in my opinion.

We have had a Generac 12 KW system (electric stove, among other needs) for two years now in an area of Maine that loses power regularly (both summer and winter), and it has always performed well when the power has gone out.

http://www.generac.com/industrial/products/RLC_Series.asp

http://www.norwall.com/

[Katherine]

Thanks all for the input. I need to question Mom & Dad more closely to see just how extensive a system they want and if they want it to have the automatic switch over.

[Rick Starr]

Some thoughts from Genny-land.

Propane is inefficient and comparatively costly. It has been used here but most owners will tell you it was a mistake.

After decades of experience, most genny owners here fall into two categories: the diesel-with-auto-transfer-switch-and-maintenance-timer group, who have thier units serviced once a year and fuel up periodically, and the Honda-5500w-with-manual-house-transfer-switch group who save some money but have to do more maintenance. After many years of experience I fall into the second category, but then we live here year round and the genny has its own building, etc etc.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: those who cobble their own gen connection should be lynched. Make that electrocuted. Unfortunately it is almost always not themselves but the poor lineman who is out in miserable weather trying to restore their power that such idiots end up killing by some idiotic backfeeding scheme. Idiots! Jesus. The power you generate goes back into the lines in such situations and once someone goes to repair it the poor bastard takes every amp your machine can pump out, till it and the person dies.

Our power outage profile is that the routine outage lasts up to 6 hours and the gen will run this entire time. We get these monthly. Every hurricane season but for a few, we get a storm-related outage that can last from 10-180 days, depending. Hurricane Hugo's outage lasted 6 mo in places. Hurr. Marilyn knocked me out for 42 days. In these instances you run your genny for 3 hrs in the morning before work and 3-4 hours in the evening while cooking and cleaning up, trying to make sure the fridge runs for at least 2 hrs after the last time it was opened.

Good luck.

[JimM]

Working for a Public Utility, I have to second Rick Starr's comment. Don't hook-up any outside power source to your home wiring without a transfer switch. Don't even use a welder to thaw frozen pipes without removing the meter to disconect your house for the grid. You don't want a lineman to come into contact with a line he or she thinks is dead and grounded.

[paladin]

the other thing to think about...is the systems they wanna use all 110 volt or is there some 220....there's not much to the transfer switches and it shouldn't take a competent person much between 30 minutes-1 hour to install if everything is there waiting.....

[Bill Griffin]

Katherine, check out a Kohler 12kw or maybe Onan of approx. same size. Here in Maine that setup with a transfer switch, and 300 gal. propane tank will run around 5k installed. They can be programmed to self-start for about 20 minutes each week. A genset that size will provide power for 3-4 days at full load (furnace, refrigerator, circuits to some lighting, and the well pump if they are not on municipal water.

[Bob (oh, THAT Bob)]

When my dad built his last two houses, he wired parallel circuits to all the critical appliances (furnace, fridge, etc.), so there are two plugs next to each; one circuit for utility company current (from the breaker box), and one circuit for emergency power (source outlet in the garage to hook up a generator to). During a power outage, one must simply switch the plugs at each appliance. (And he made the plugs accessible, thus the fridge plug is not behind but beside the fridge.) Thus, this is a "manual override" system. A little effort required but no expensive circuitry. Obviously your house is already built, but you could do the same thing with extension cords running from the generator to each appliance, thus no danger to anyone at the power company as the generator is totally isolated from outside lines, yes? (Someone correct me if I am wrong.) Walmart has 100 foot outdoor rated extension cords fairly cheap (the orange ones).

Another cheap approach in an emergency is use of an inverter (converts 12 volt DC to 110 volt volt AC). These things have gotten unbelievably cheap (and small) if you knew how much they used to cost (and how large they were 20+ years ago). About $100 or less for 1500 watt peak/750 watt continuous, with generally linear progression in size vs. price. Walmart is good source locally up to 1500 watt, Harbor Freight or other discounters are good for 3000 watt and up. Drawbacks: 1) These produce a modified sine wave, not true sine wave; most motors don't mind but some delicate electronics do, modern electronically controlled heating pads for instance will not run. My cell phone charger and laptop power supply do not mind, they have made those more tolerant of "dirty" power evidently. 2) Small currents (laptop, etc.) can run off a car battery for hours, but furnace, etc., will require running inverter off a running car; You are using the car engine as the generator. Good for a short period of time but you don't want the car idling all night; not economical and not good for the car. 3) Inverters used to be a small fraction of the cost of a generator, but now I am seeing generators at Harbor Freight for only twice the cost of similar size inverters, so go with a generator. These are cheap Chinese made gas engine ones, but most things are made there these days. I would expect a diesel generator to cost WAY more. For occasional use, the fuel savings don't justify it. The main reason for a diesel is frequent use, but more importantly, common fuel supply if you are using it in a diesel-powered motor home. Also, less fire danger with diesel fuel. But diesels are also harder to start in cold weather. When it got down to 17 degrees F a couple of years ago in TN, I had to use my other emergency gear (10,000 BTU multifuel mountaineering stove) 6" underneath the oil pan for an hour to heat the diesel engine on my truck to start, and that was with the block heater plugged in all night! (though this is a heavy duty diesel with no glow plugs, broken intake air heater, and 380,000 miles on it.) And I am from northern MI, +17 F is nothing there, it'll get -10 F quite commonly as you know, occasionally -20 F and the power tends to go out when it is the coldest or hottest.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

[Bob (oh, THAT Bob)]

Other thoughts:

Diesel fuel gets wax particulates in it and will "gel" in very cold temps unless you add anti-gel additive BEFORE it gets cold, another vote against a diesel engine for cold temps and occasional use.

Also, Schuck's (discount auto parts) and other similar auto part stores are often selling generators as cheap as the discount tool places these days. Now with these cheaper generators, you cannot chain them (connect multiple ones on the same circuit) like you can with the Hondas, so get one large enough for everything. Or at least large enough for the largest appliance, then use another generator for the other things separately if you want multiple generators for redundancy.

As far as the no-electricity approach, if you have a wood stove for heat, gas lanterns and stove (propane or white gas, I prefer the multi-fuel ones that run off white gas, gasoline, or kerosene), and a small inverter to run the computer or TV (not simultaneously), you are set, at least if the phone is working (does with no power if the lines are not down, perhaps not with a cable modem). The wood stove is a bit of money but the other things are really cheap so you might want to plan those as back up anyway. LED flashlights are modern miracles and are vastly more efficient than conventional ones, I highly recommend the Dorcy Metal Gear 1 watt available at Walmart, runs for over 8 hours on a set of batteries, that has a very focused beam and is indestructible, or one of the LED headlamps that are very inexpensive now. If you get gas lanterns and/or stove, please make sure your folks understand the carbon monoxide danger, it's amazing that people still asphyxiate each year due to this. If you get a multifuel stove, I have recommendations, talk to me.