A new Bob Perry schooner

[Hwyl]

It's veneer over foam, Bob is discussing it on the Sailing Anarchy site. It's for a client in San Francisco who needed the shallow draught.

She has single halyards on the gaffs (with provision to change)
http://www.perryboat.com/images/crhper-kbill-n40ftsch-slge.jpg
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=38957

[paladin]

dunno look shallow draft. Whatizzit?......and I really love the rudder...;)

[Hwyl]

Five- five chuck on a 40 footer, so it's on the shallow side.

It was built by Jespersens.

[PeterSibley]

hmmmm. nup

[MAGIC's Craig]

Here is a photo of her coming out of the building shed.

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=38957

[paladin]

got to admit it looks better for real than the profile drawing....still don't like the rudder....

[Presuming Ed]

Why not? If you're going to have a separate rudder, and benefit from the improved manoevrability, it looks fine to me.

[bamamick]

He seems to be able to adapt and satisfy his cumstomers whether they want a gaff schooner or a sport boat. And of course his big cruising boats are famous for their aesthetic beauty.

I have always enjoyed reading his design reviews in 'Sailing' magazine. He has shown a real appreciation for the classic lines of the metre boats and I like that. I like that a guy like Mr.Perry can show that he enjoys the work of other people.

Mickey Lake

[PeterSibley]

The photo looks a LOT better than the drawing but I'm with Chuck on the rudder...it's a worry !

[John B]

Why is it a worry? ( I must be missing something)

[Ian McColgin]

Some folk mistrust an independent spade rudder. Figure it'll fall off or something. Read LFH's remarks on why that's silly. Or maybe look at some even among better glass boats (a Bristol I surveyed comes to mind) where it turned out that the skeg, far from supporting the rudder, was being held to the hull by the rudder.

One does want a robust rudder post and especially wants a bit less draft in the rudder than the keel. I wonder if this plan is enough. I came in over a bar in a newly commissioned sloop with a spade rudder and the shoal keel configuration, which put keel and rudder at the same depth. The depth sounder read 2' more water than actual. I'd watched the installer check with a lead line but did not realize that he'd turned the adjusting screw the wrong way. So we smacked the dirt, bending the rudder post and jaming the rudder against the horn. Had about 50 yards to shoot a mooring by sail trim alone!

So, after all those years in Granuaile, I say the independet spade rudder is in principle the most powerful and effective rudder on can have, but keep the bottom up a little.

All rudders on proper boats are protected from the ground somehow. The rudder at the end of a fu ll keel is an inch or so up, at least. The barn door catboat can swing freely when the boat's aground. Many designs have kick-up rudders and many triditional designs will let the rudder lift off the gudgeons in a grounding. Frankly, the only rudder configuration I consider silly is the semi-spade and skeg - neither fish nor foul.

[Ian McColgin]

By the way, this schooner is classic Perry at his best - he's got the long waterline firm bilges shape down. I've sailed a number of his boats, starting years ago with a Valient 40 I much coveted but could not afford. Perry makes very intelligent compromises to get reasonably fast, seaworthy and pretty boats. The only ciritque I'd have is that given my propensity for taking the ground, I'd want to sacrifice some serious living space to make a workable lifting keel and pivoting rudder.

The main gaff on this boat is a good deal more horizontal than I'd like. I'd like to see it peaked up 45-60 degrees and have fittings for a topmast and topsail. I think the fore gaff is a bit flat and short as well, but that can be shaped with a vang and it's often more important to fill in the space between the masts. Also, I've sailed one schooner that had a fore gaff longer than the space between the masts. Fine when set but a real pain if you'd struck the sail on one tack and then went to hoist it on the other.

But these are quibbles. Neat boat.

[JimD]

...and I really love the rudder...;)

When sailing backwards the rudder protects the fin keel from deadheads and other submerged hazzards.

[John B]

I like the boat but I don't like the low gaff angles.

Rudders, yes I've run whole threads lamenting the use of inapropriate materials for rudder posts based on what I've seen or heard of from sources pretty close to the action.
One story which still sticks is the SP 42( I think that's what it was) which lost its skeg on passage from Fiji to NZ. The boat had been bought in Florida and was being sailed here.
anyyy way, this is the boat that busted out the bow pile mooring next to Waione last year and very luckily laid into the other side berth rather than shoving her self steering gear up and down through our boom , sail and coamings.

rudder , yes, I'll get there.
I got talking to the owner after all the crap had settled and he told me how they were sailing along quite nicely on their passage home when the helm went mushy.He observed the rudder deflecting side to side and discovered that the 6 or 8 bolts holding the skeg on had had enough of life and dumped it in the middle of the pacific.The skeg was a goneburger.
Before the rudder post could slog out its bearing and bend the shaft, they hove to and dropped the rudder out of the bottom and saved it.
Here's the interesting thing. With the skeg gone, an important part of the lateral plane of the boat had also gone, and there was nothing that could be done to make it steer with a jury rig. They tried all the usual things, a no go.
Fortunately they were cruising with another boat. They rigged all their chain into a long tow and sailed 400 odd miles home in tandem.

interesting, I thought, it made me think that at least with a balanced spade rudder you could jury rig some helm should it be lost.

[Ian McColgin]

Just noted the remark about a single halyard. That could account for the rather flat gaff angles.

[John B]

It must have a purchase running down to the throat for it to work. something like masthead to peak to mast to throat to mast and down. surely.

[Hwyl]

That's not what he says John. I'm at work at the moment and my concience stops me from researching on the other site.
If I remember, someone said something about having a track on the gaff to alter the angle of the lead. Sounds bogus to me.

I'll post from home later.

[Hwyl]

I'm home now: here's the quote
Schnick is right. Both masts have single halyard systems so there are two halyards but one on each mast indtead of throat and peak halyards on both masts

And here's the thread http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48750&pid=1073293&st=0&#entry1073293

[John B]

Going by the drawing I can't see how myself but hey.
There is a pretty little dynamic we get going on when we have 2 reefs in. The peak halyard is at such an angle and has the height seperation where it takes very close to all the halyard load and the gaff saddle gently floats with no thrust load on the mast. I love it because as the breeze increases there is actually less bending load on the mast. ( especially down away from any shrouds or backstays). It all stays beautifully in column.

maybe its something like that?

Yes, I see now. The span could be fixed to the 'peak' halyard and preset the gaff angle so it hoists and sets off the one halyard. No span showing though is there.Hmmm.

[rbgarr]

More Perry boat design reviews than you can shake a stick at:
http://www.sailingmagazine.net/perry.html

[bamamick]

it works or why he drew it up that way you can send him a pm from Sailing Anarchy. He posts there just about every day on the FT10 forum.

Mickey Lake

[Ian McColgin]

Single halyard has worked just fine for a few hundred years. It's a bit more common on where the gaff is both curved and short, as is seen on some Dutch boats. The principle is a bit like balanced lug, from which it may have evolved, only later to evolve to the more complex but more versitile throat and peak hallyard rig.

The system put less compression strain on the gaff. It does add some bending strain but this is shared with the sail itself, creating a self-flattening effect as leach and luff tensions are increased with higher wind.

It's actually really cool, but takes a bit of getting used to for full advantage. I've only sailed one boat rigged this way and not nearly long enough to get more than a hint as to it's utility.

Sidelight for conventional gaff sailors. If the gaff is at all highly peaked, a good deal of the purchase may well lead down to the throat hallyard pullys at the mast truck, leading to a feature I discovered quite by accident and have since learned that many traditional sailors knew anyway.

One can often get to the first reef without touching the peak hallyard.

Just easing the throat and trimming away at the first reef clew and tack lines will pull the whole rig down with the gaff staying in about its same peak angle but the peak hallyard is running about between the truck and the gaff bridel as it repositions from pointing down to pointing up. This does not always work exactly on all boats but even if you must tweek the peak hallyard at the end, it still expedites getting to the first reef. At least for a boat like Marmalade, this does not work in reverse as the pressure to raise the throat against an increasingly tensioned peak will defeat you.

G'luck

[rbgarr]

Here's single halyard rig on short gaffs.

Wild Duck
http://i12.tinypic.com/3ys1egg.jpg

Similar boat for sale here: http://tinyurl.com/2rzvvr

[Mark Giegel]

I like the lines of the Perry Schooner. It reminds me of the Paul Gartside design # 111 which is a 38' gaff rigged sloop with a skeg hung rudder. www.gartsideboats.com
Mark

[John B]

see , Wild Duck has her halyards meeting the gaffs at 90 degrees or close.IE , no compression on the throat. The first drawing on the schooner clearly has a wider angle caused by the low gaff angle ,which must compress the gaffs in towards the mast (with the result that the throat will thrust down).
Thats the part I don't get.

Tern, the LFH leeboard ketch ,has single halyards on short gaffs too , they're more like Wild duck or even shorter. They work fine as far as I can see.

Anyway, for all my slow brain pondering, It certainly is refreshing to see a fine modern traditional boat like that enriching the seas with its presence. Look like it should and go like a cut cat I bet.
A lovely thing.

[bob perry]

My schooner was designed as a custom project for a SF Bay owner. He wanted the low angled gaffs as it reminded him of the SF Bay scow schooners. The single halyard system will be a work in prgress for some time. But we have put a lot of effort into making this work. It wa a client requirement. I also designed the spars so w could go to a two halyard system in the future. I do recognize that going with a single halyard eliminates control over the sail shape but once again, this was an owner request.

The rudder is a "semi balanced" spade. It is all carbon fiber so the stock and the blade are esentially monocoque. It is extremely strong. I chose a spade rudder because they work better. This boat will back up perfectly and that is not always the case with attached rudders. I have not sailed the boat yet as it is still being rigged but I am confident that the rudder will provide good fell and control. Argue all day about the benefits of attached rudders if you like but I would always do a spade or at least a half skeg if I had my choice.

Jespersen's is a fabulous yard. The quality of this boat is amazing. The project was a joy for me from day one. I am very proud of this design. No it's not really traditional but that was never the goal. The owner specifically did not want a "recreation". I think of this boat as a hybrid.
I have no interest in trying to "outdo" what the old designers did so well. I have tremendous resepct fpor the designers who came before me. I just like doing it my own way so the resultant boat reflects my design ideas. If I can, at the same time. echo some of the styles and aesthetics from the past then I am happy.

[bob perry]

Braam:
That's exactly correct. I need clients to keep my busines alive. I design to the client's outline of exactly what he wants in a boat. It's my job to make sure that client's don't ask for anything that would put the safety of the boat at risk. I give them both sides of the argument in terms of performance compromises. I never want to compromise performance. In this case I argued vehemently against the schooner rig and for a cutter rg. I lost that argument the went ahead and did the best schooner I could. In my new book, due for publishsing this year, I work hard to connect client requirements with the creative and technical sides of yacht design. Custom boats must be evaluated as reflections of the client's personal image of his life on the water. I have no trouble doing this while maintaining my own satisfaction with my work. If I am asked to draw a feature that I am totally against I just tell the client, calmly, "It's your boat you can do what you want but I will not draw that."

[WindHawk]

If I may be so bold as to venture, Bob's Sailing Magazine review's are classic's. Every single one is worth a read, and many are worth rereading time & again. You must remember one thing, however, he'll only review boats that he likes. It's understandable why, with the business being so small, and a rotten design might just be the early work of the Next Best Thing Ever; but just once, I'd like him rip on a boat. Kinda' like burnin' the tires on Daddy's Cadillac, it shouldn't be done, but it's so much fun...

[bob perry]

Windhawk:
that is very kind of you.

I review boats that I think are dcent designs. These are not always boats I like but that crosses over into the subjective side of things and I don;t want my own personal taste to limit what I review. If I think it is an unsound design (read that an way you like) I choose not to review it.

That way I do not have to "rip" boats anymore. From time to time if you read closely you will find me transgressing into wine, recipes and music. That is a clue that I am not in love with the boat I am reviewing. I have no desire to trash another man' dreams in SAILING magazine. Part of me would like to on occasion but I choose the higher road at this sage. Just watch for those clues.

[bamamick]

(as an aside: IT IS SO FREAKIN' AWESOME TO SEE PEOPLE LIKE THIS ON THIS SITE). Sorry.

Anyway, one of our regular posters (DonZ) owns a boat built by Jespersen's yard. The 8mR 'Octavia' was built up there and Don has her now in Annapolis.

Once again, welcome to the board.

Mickey Lake

[John B]

Thanks for the insight Mr Perry. We see a few of your designs down this way, virtually all arrived on their own bottoms as far as I can see, and every one worth a look at too.

[Lucky Luke]

I am VERY curious to hear more about the single halyard ....and quite curious about the two wood veneers on foam construction???? Hope that we shall have infos here, without having to go to anarchy;)

Lovely design, indeed!

[Hwyl]

Welcome Bob. I loved the boat when I first saw it. I'm thinking how she'd look with a cutter rig now though

[bob perry]

As I said, the low gaff angles were a client request. I originally drew them peaked up about as much as I thought I could get away with. The client did not like that look. The trick with the single halyard is to get the geometry of the bridle corect so yo get the right angle when the sail is hoisted and then whe you drop the sail so that the gaff lies flat on the boom for furling. It sounds simple but it's more complex than you initially imagine. We have the "halyard" running to a length of track on top of the gaff so that this angle can be adjusted. From the throat w run a short pendant up to a car on the mast track. The "Halyard" runs from this car to the gaff. I think you may be able to make out these details on the drawings that was posted if you look carefully. We are assuming that there will be fine tuning required before we get an optimal setting for these relationships and we are set up to back to a double halyard system if this approach does not work.

The veneers are vacuum bagged over the foam in epoxy and the result is a light and very stiff and strong shell with the look and feel of a wooden boat. I could post the construction drawing if you like but I hate to give away all my secrets. Still, if you really want to se how it was built I could be convinced to post it.

The keel is a long and low aspect ratio fin with a moderate thickness ratio . Draft was limited to 5.5' by the client. Given the the schooner will be windrward challenged compared to a modern, fractional sloop, I did not feel the draft isue was a major compromise. Of course more draft is always better bit in this case the owner's cruising habits prevented it.

[paladin]

Several boats have been built in Thailand using that construction technique. We built a Horstman Tri using Klegecell over a framework, and four layers of african mahogany veneer (1/8th inch) and two layers of Vectra.....after making the exterior support the hull was turned and one layer of Kevlar and 2 vectra layers were layed inside....it was a fast boat...

[bob perry]

We have done several boats at Schooner Creek in Portland using the same method. Schooner Creek has built almost exclusively in that style for years.

[paladin]

We were doing this maybe 25-30 years ago. Started with Baltek, then switched to the foam, and used cedar for the first two layers and Honduras or african mahogany for the outer two layers. The bulkheads were african mahogany plywood with cedar crittendon trusses in the middle, and foam between the truss supports. Originally used nothing except Schindlers T-88 (now System 3) epoxy for the laminations, then switched most recently to M.A.S. for the fabrics. We also used veneers to laminate the spars...found we could make nice spars (lots more work) lighter than aluminum, but heavier than carbon, but considerably less expensive than carbon....labor has gone out of sight in recent years. When I built the last boat it was 8 cents per hour for a 8 hour work day, now with inflation it's up to 11 cents an hour so the yard rate is now $3.50 an hour....extremely expensive for the area. It is compensated for by the fact that we can buy U.S. resins and fabrics etc for less than 1/2 the U.S. wholesale price...:D

[bob perry]

Paladin:
I need your contact information. Are you open to building some of my custom boats?

[MAGIC's Craig]

We certainly echo Bob Perry's comments on the lovely work which has rolled forth from the Jespersen shop over the years - first under the guidance of Bent Jespersen (and our MAGIC is one of these) and subsequently under his son, Eric's careful hand, with Bob's design being the most recent. We have been enjoying watching this schooner come together over the last year+ (even pitched in a bit during one of the vacumn-bagging sessions) and really look forward to seeing her sailing when we return to MAGIC.

My hat is off to you, Mr. Perry for all the detail work you and your staff have done to see this meticuously conceived yacht through to her launching! Lovely drawings - and quite a few of them.

And our compliments to Michel and his crew for the care they took to complete the boat to the clients requirements. Well done!

Craig and Vicky Johnsen
MAGIC

[George.]

We have about 1000 meters of running rigging on Dalia, and generally do not want any more for our short-handed cruising. For example, I can't be bothered with vangs, although I can see they would improve performance.

And yet one adjustment I wouldn't give up is the possibility of easing off the peaks when running or in light airs. Sometimes, it makes more of a difference than fine-tuning all the sheets. An ugly, creased, gybe-prone sail becomes tame and efficient, and you can feel the effect on boat speed without looking at the speed gauge (which we also don't have :D).

And as far as hoisting, if I am alone I pull on both halyards simultaneously anyway, and it is easier to sweat in first one and then the other. And if there are two of us...

I bet that if Bob's client tries two halyards he'll never look back.

[paladin]

The client may not always be right, but he is always the client.....I betcha that after a season or two of sailing, "developmental changes" may occur......