To receive a Dishonorable Discharage...

[J. Dillon]

NPR this morning interviewed that soldier that refused to go to Iraq along with I think a year in prison. What does a dishonorable discharge look like ? I guess not as fancy as an Honoralbe one. How will this effect his future? Some of course will scorn him, but others shake his hand . Where do you stand ?

JD

[Hwyl]

He could have done something even more deplorable
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6364585.stm

[TomF]

My views on the Iraq war are no secret. I think it's bad policy, badly executed, and ultimately destabilizing.

But I must say, I find it very odd indeed that people sign up in a volunteer army, promising to follow legitimate orders, and then refuse to serve in the war zone their government defines. But a friend of mine has a number of acquaintances who signed up, and are flabbergasted at being asked to go to Iraq.

"Why'd you sign up?" he asked.

"For my college tuition, to learn a skill. Didn't think I'd ever go to a war zone."

"Uhmmm. So what did you think all that weapons training was for?"

It's appropriate that the person would receive jail time and a dishonourable discharge - these are expected consequences. It's also, I think, an honourable thing to live through such consequences, if once in the army, you find that your conscience won't let you follow the order to go into a war zone.

But it might have been a good idea to do that thinking first.

[Milo Christensen]

...How will this effect his future?...

I'd heard that he was doing pretty well on the speaking tour. He'll write a book in the stockade and become an operative for the Democratic party.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ten men in the Royal Scots Borderers got dishonorable discharges yesterday for failing a drugs test.

Serves them right.

[Milo Christensen]

Mister Dillon!, Mister Dillon!!, Mister Dillon!!!

Are you referring to Ehren Watada?

Because he might not go to jail after all.

The Army Blinked. (http://eatthestate.org/11-12/ArmyBlinked.htm)

[geeman]

If he doesnt go to jail he can thank public opinion on the war.
Which I think is wrong.I agree with TOM here.If your not willing to go to war if your called up,dont expect to reap the benefits.
I have the utmost respect for our military,be it peace time or war
What I cant stand tho is the "guys" that sign up for service and then expect to NOT GO to WAR if ordered up.

[John of Phoenix]

Watada's original courts martial was declared a mistrial. The judge says he can't sign a confession and plead not guilty so they start again next month.

Regarding the DD, Calley got one in 1971 (and a "life at hard labor" sentence) for My Lai. He was paroled in '75 and went into the insurance business. I had always heard a DD was the equivalent of a felony conviction, but I guess not.

[John E Hardiman]

A Dishonorable Discharage will make him ineligible for most positions of trust or government/public service. However, as has been pointed out, it may make him a shoe-in for politics.

I also agree with TomF and geeman; there is no such thing as a 9 to 5 military. In a larger sense though, one really does not fight much for abstract ideas, however much they may be the overarching concept. One fights for thier friends, unit, ship, tribe, etc. Even I go out because the crews of my ships expect me to, and I go because they may need me there. If I write a procedure that places them at risk, I also should be willing to take that risk, even though the possibility of dying in an accident is real and a risk I do not have to take. However, going lends me creditability, and makes for better service to the ship, fleet, and country which in the end is the whole idea.

It is not like the person didn't know this was comming, they read the UCMJ to you point by point regularly. For someone to volunteer then back out before even going shows a lack of moral commitment to the people around them who they relied on, and more importantly, relied on them. Realisticly, such an untrustworthy person needs to be pruned from the unit before they can harm the unit, which is what happens when even one person begins to spread discord (you'd be suprised how fast a malcontent is removed from a submarine). If person just wants out in good faith before the government has sunk a lot of money into them, a "Good of the Service" discharge is available. If they have taken the government for an education and a good hunk of change, then a DD, which will last as long as a diploma, and the stockade for the rest of thier time is suitable.

[WillW]

Ok, agreed that simple disengenousness is insufficient grounds for exculpation. What about the deserter who argues, as several have, that Iraq is an illegal war? Supposing that the war is illegal, would that relieve the deserter of responsibility?

You can argue that he is required to follow orders regardless, but remember that during Nuremberg trials following orders was not considered a defense in crimes against humanity. Or, suppose a soldier is ordered to participate in military coup -- surely that would be an illegal order.

[geeman]

One of the negatives of war is the victor calls the shots and makes the rules.If the Nazi's had won the war, in their country they would have been heros.Nuremberg is an example, thats war.We won.
You sign up in the service, you sign up agreeing to SERVE your country.It's not your job to decide legality, its your job to fight when and if ordered.

[Ron Joslin]

If the US of A is at war when you sign up to get your seabag or green underwear you had better get your butt in gear. Now if the US of A declares war after you sign up you might bitch a little but you took the oath and so did the rest of us. Thank GOD that some have done their duty. I did mine, now you do yours.

[Figment]

One of the negatives of war is the victor calls the shots and makes the rules.If the Nazi's had won the war, in their country they would have been heros.Nuremberg is an example, thats war.We won.
You sign up in the service, you sign up agreeing to SERVE your country.It's not your job to decide legality, its your job to fight when and if ordered.

Damn Straight! No one put a gun to his head and MADE him sign up! It's not like he had no other options in life that wouldn't have required combat service, right? Was the Texas Air Guard not taking applications that week?

(c'mon, you know it had to be said by someone)

[J. Dillon]

I think John H. put it best. Last night there was a TV about the US
Marine Corps. They showed the OCS training . The commanding officer (who by the way got in the ditch with the candidate) told that you could quit any time. But they would never take you back in OCS. They want totaly dedicated committed men only.

Thank God we have them.

JD

[John E Hardiman]

What about the deserter who argues, as several have, that Iraq is an illegal war? Supposing that the war is illegal, would that relieve the deserter of responsibility?


First, the war is not illegal under US law, which is what matters to the UCMJ. Second, regardless of the legality of the war in other terms, they are still deserters. You can refuse your duty under terms, such as several marines did when Clinton sent troops into Bosnia under the UN command, but you can't flee your duty. Here Watada, comes out much more responsible that the others.


You sign up in the service, you sign up agreeing to SERVE your country.It's not your job to decide legality, its your job to fight when and if ordered.

Not really true. It is the service members responsibility to obey legal orders, not all orders. If the President has ordered troops in, then it is a legal order for officers to order troops into combat. However, it is not legal for troops to follow orders that violate the UCMJ and, extended to by the UCMJ, the GC. It is also illegal to issue such orders, so therefor the order itself is not legal and therefor need not be followed. The hard point right now is that the GC and International Law of War are sadly out of date. While the Military Commisions Act is poorly worded IMHO,it does fill in a lot of grey areas that are now facts of life for the troops on the ground and a big headache for the military.

[TomF]

As I said, I think once you've signed up, you've made yourself aware of the consequences of refusing duty.

Sometimes, it is the moral choice to refuse duty, even after having signed up. In those cases, it is also the moral choice to accept and suffer the consequences you knew would be there.

Either way, being on honest speaking terms with your conscience isn't easy, nor is it for cowards.

[paladin]

as said before..I didn't volunteer for Vietnam...I was ordered there and did my time......This person signed up, was of legal age and sound mind, took the money, then refused to pay......a DD and jail time for refusing the order, and he should be made to reimburse the gov't for his educational expenses that could have gone to someone else.

[WillW]

Not really true. It is the service members responsibility to obey legal orders, not all orders. If the President has ordered troops in, then it is a legal order for officers to order troops into combat. However, it is not legal for troops to follow orders that violate the UCMJ and, extended to by the UCMJ, the GC. It is also illegal to issue such orders, so therefor the order itself is not legal and therefor need not be followed.

Thanks John, that answers my question exactly. It's not enough to say that victors make the justice. There has to be a code to follow.

[jack grebe]

What does a dishonorable discharge look like ?
Rent one of those OLD Disney movies....The ones that have WD sitting on a desk giving a little talk before the movie. Look over his shoulder at the framed pics on the wall, there is his DD on the wall upside down

[Phillip Allen]

Honour is no longer valued or taught in our society

[huisjen]

Legal orders must be followed. I believe there are some orders that are illeagal. I believe this war is a bad idea. However, I don't believe that simply going to Iraq constitutes grounds for refusing an illegal order.

I hated being in the USN, but I decided that honorably finishing out my obligation was the only ethical choice for me. If he decided he couldn't follow orders and go back to Iraq, it means one of two things. Either he is an ethical coward, or he places the good of his country ahead of his own personal pride and honor. If I had to judge him, I'd go with the later.

Dan

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

TomF, & Paladin I agree with both of you 100%

Case closed for me.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

"Smart people aviod war if possible."

My friend "Chuck T.", a wounded Viet Nam Conflict Vet .( USMC)
Lost his right leg in 1969.

[PatCox]

Walt Disney never served in the military, though he did serve as an ambulance driver for the Red Cross in France during WWII. Ths story about his DD is totally false. Why is he slandered?

[Donn]

What does a dishonorable discharge look like ?

It looks like a Form DD-214. Somewhere on it, depending on a variety of things, is an entry for "Character of Service." It'll say Dishonorable.

[WillW]

Ok, what about Abu Ghraib prison?

Many of those charged such as Lyndie England were following orders which amounted to carrying out torture. What if they had refused to carry out those orders?

[TomF]

Ok, what about Abu Ghraib prison?

Many of those charged such as Lyndie England were following orders which amounted to carrying out torture. What if they had refused to carry out those orders?I think it would have been the moral, honourable thing to do, to refuse those orders. And to bring up the orders and the rationale for refusing them at trial.

I'd think it rather a badge of honour to be jailed for refusing to torture someone.

[cs]

Dishonorable discharges are given to servicemembers for dishonorable conduct. They are given only by a general court-martial for serious offenses calling for dishonorable separation as part of the punishment. All benefits earned during any time of service can be lost.


General and special court-martial convictions are equivalent to federal court convictions

So keep in mind a dishonarable discharge carries the same weight as a felony.

Now don't get this confussed with Other than honorable discharge. If I'm not mistaken that can be upgraded to a honarable disharge after six months with the proper paperwork.

Chad

[Tylerdurden]

Ten men in the Royal Scots Borderers got dishonorable discharges yesterday for failing a drugs test.

Serves them right.

As my Grandfather served in that unit and fought the Turks I think it serves them right. I do believe back in the day it was "The Kings own Royal Scottish Borderers"
He was one tough Bastard I will tell ya.

[Tylerdurden]

TomF, & Paladin I agree with both of you 100%

Case closed for me.

I must say I agree too. I have some different feelings about the officer who refused deployment to Iraq but offered to serve in Afghanistan.
As an NCO I Think the boys under you count on you unlike officers.
That demands you stay with your unit.

[John E Hardiman]

Many of those charged such as Lyndie England were following orders which amounted to carrying out torture. What if they had refused to carry out those orders?

First lets put all the other names of the convicted to this:
Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick II 372nd Military Police Company,
Sgt. Javal S. Davis 372 MPC,
Cpl. Charles A. Graner 372 MPC,
Spc. Jeremy Sivits 372 MPC,
Spc. Roman Krol 325th Military Intellengence Battlion,
Spc. Armin J. Cruz 325 MIB
Spc. Sabrina D. Harman 372 MPC
Pfc. Megan M. Ambuhl 372 MPC

Frederick and Davis were the senior NCO's on the night shift for the guards. By their own statements they, like the men that slew Beckett, were never directly ordered to commit what they did. It was infered, and they complied even though they knew it was wrong. Abuse yes, following orders...no.

From the Taguba report:


SGT Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company, stated in
his sworn statement as follows: "I witnessed prisoners
in the MI hold section, wing 1A being made to do various
things that I would question morally. In Wing 1A we
were told that they had different rules and different
SOP for treatment. I never saw a set of rules or SOP
for that section just word of mouth. The Soldier in
charge of 1A was Corporal Granier. He stated that the
Agents and MI Soldiers would ask him to do things, but
nothing was ever in writing he would complain (sic)."
When asked why the rules in 1A/1B were different than
the rest of the wings, SGT Davis stated: "The rest of
the wings are regular prisoners and 1A/B are Military
Intelligence (MI) holds." When asked why he did not
inform his chain of command about this abuse, SGT Davis
stated: " Because I assumed that if they were doing
things out of the ordinary or outside the guidelines,
someone would have said something. Also the wing
belongs to MI and it appeared MI personnel approved of
the abuse." SGT Davis also stated that he had heard MI
insinuate to the guards to abuse the inmates. When
asked what MI said he stated: "Loosen this guy up for
us." Make sure he has a bad night." "Make sure he gets
the treatment." He claimed these comments were made to
CPL Granier and SSG Frederick. Finally, SGT Davis
stated that (sic): "the MI staffs to my understanding
have been giving Granier compliments on the way he has
been handling the MI holds. Example being statements
like, "Good job, they're breaking down real fast. They
answer every question. They're giving out good
information, Finally, and Keep up the good work . Stuff
like that."

And a list of those that didn't "follow orders":

CPL Matthew Scott Bolanger, 372nd MP Company
SPC Joseph M. Darby, 372nd MP Company
SPC Mathew C. Wisdom, 372nd MP Company
SPC John V. Polak, 229th MP Company
SGT Samuel Jefferson Provance, 302nd MI Battalion
SGT Neil A. Wallin, 109th Area Support Medical Battalion
SSG Reuben R. Layton, Medic, 109th Medical Detachment
Torin S. Nelson, Contractor, Titan Corp., Assigned to the 205th MI Brigade

[WX]

I would shake his hand, it takes guts to do that.

[paladin]

Yeah...the enlisted dude gets a DD....but ya can't give a DD to an officer and a gentleman.....so the officer gets off with something else...

[Tylerdurden]

Yeah...the enlisted dude gets a DD....but ya can't give a DD to an officer and a gentleman.....so the officer gets off with something else...

Right on with that... Thats why its my opinion that officers should be the first to stand up. Also thats why I give Watada credit before the enlisted man who deserts or misses movement.

[Chris Coose]

I listened to the guy talk a couple of times. He sounded clear in his objection. What difference does it make what sort of clothing or uniform or medals placed on that clothing when a person changes their mind on a choice they made?
Time in a prison?
If he is truely committed to his objection he'll do any time standing on his head and when he is let out he may become president.
Happened in India and S. Africa.

[Ron Joslin]

Not on my watch. What do you think the military is for? You like the pay,education, and other benefits but do not want to fight??? I know you dont want to get hurt or killed -- So, WHY DID YOU SIGN UP?
I'll go with Joe, case closed on this one.

[John of Phoenix]

The guy said he wouldn't deploy to IRAQ. He's willing to fight on the Eastern Front in Afghanistan, but he believes Iraq is immoral an illegal.

It's admirable that he's willing to stand up for what he believes, but there's not an armed force in the world that lets you pick and choose where you're willing to fight.

So he’s made his decision – protest. There’s also not an armed force on the planet that allows its members to do that.

Good luck at your trial LT, you’ll need it.

[paladin]

We had a weenie in South East Asia....a Captain......squadron commander.....had been passed over three times for promotion......
I came to his attention when there was a small problem with the enlisted ranks.....
Seems the captain and first seargent had a game going. All enlisted personnel below the grade of E-5 had to contribute $15 per month to the "houseboy fund"....there were well over1000 people of those grades in the squadron.....we had about 50 houseboys on the payroll at 35 bucks a month....but the houseboy fund was always short......we had 30-35 permanent hire KP's.....at 100 bucks a month...
If you didn't pay your houseboy fees ya ended up on KP dooty......
I went TDY for 90 days....returned, next day was ordered to report to commander..."counselled" about not paying the KP fees and was ordered to report to KP duty.......I was not happy and made a remark to another airman that I thought I could bring this program to a screeching halt.....obviously the word got to the Captain.....
About two weeks later a letter arrived, addressed to me from a state senator....The mailroom weenie, trying to make points, carried it directly to the captain....first sgt calls me at work and instructs me to get my butt to quartes, get into class "A"s and report to captain...captain hands me the letter and orders me to open it stating he wanted to see what was inside. I declined. He got very upset. threatened me with courtsmartial...etc....I reported it to SJA..who instructed me to forget it because it was my word against his.
Then the dude got nailed when he "sold" his POV to his Philippino girlfriend...illegally (had to have the car in country 2 years before selling it on the open market)...got his hands slapped.....then he tried to commit suicide....blew that....
I got discharged before he left country. While processing through company HQ in california the week after discharge another airman came in, telling me the captain was being recalled from his post. I had to pick up a flight medical then flew to Hawaii. I was posted overnight at the BOQ and went to the "O" club for dinner.....ran into the captain at the bar.....he went berserk...screaming for the sgt at arms (bouncer)....they checked my I.D., showed civilian, GS-12.......
couldn't pass up the chance.....looked capt. in the eye, told him I wasn't an airman, but an undercover investigator.......smiled...and walked out....I found out about a year ago that he lives in Norfolk, Va. and was canned after I left.....

[Osborne Russell]

1. There is no duty to obey illegal orders.
2. There is a duty to disobey illegal orders and to prevent them being carried out.
3. Volunteering and then refusing duty is honorable, given the right conditions. One volunteers on condition of serving honorably, as determined by the one whose honor is at stake.


Why should a man, even for an instant, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then?

-- Thoreau

[Osborne Russell]

If he is truely committed to his objection he'll do any time standing on his head and when he is let out he may become president.
Happened in India and S. Africa.

Interesting question. Who, with a dishonorable discharge, has ever been elected? What substantiates the reflexive suspicion of Democratic partisanship?

[garland reese]

It seems quite simple to me. He signed up in a volunteer service, swore he'd serve, then decides he doesn't want to. A dishonerable discharge is very appropriate. Unfortunately, he'll probably make money off it. He should feel shame, but I doubt he does. I'd hope employers still look upon a dd as an immediate cause to &^%$ can his resume'

[Bob Smalser]

Now don't get this confussed with Other than honorable discharge. If I'm not mistaken that can be upgraded to a honarable disharge after six months with the proper paperwork.


You're entirely mistaken. A rationalizing barracks lie probably begun by some Chapter 13 before he completed outprocessing and was escorted to the gate.

Anything other than an honorable is deep doodoo, appeal-wise. Here's an example on the officer side, trying to overturn a "resignation for the good of the service":

http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/federal/judicial/fed/opinions/98opinions/98-5165.html

And commissioned officers certainly can get bad discharges, although they've usually lost that commission by that time. For lesser offenses like one of mine who loaned his government vehicle to his girlfriend for the 30 days he was on home leave, "resigning for the good of the service" usually does the trick. Loses them all accrued benefits and status.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Disciplinary_Barracks

LT Watada will get his day in court....again. Once the legal nitpicking is out of the way, I expect the trial to be short. Very short.

[cs]

Bob my buddy while on active duty got realesed from active duty about 8 months before completing his tour. He was given an "Other than Honarable" discharge. He was given the option after 6 months to go have his discharge upgraded if he meet certain conditions. I don't recall the exact circumstances or conditios, but I'm going to search the web for some more info.

This from some lawyer's site:


What discharges can be upgraded?
Any administrative discharge, whether it resulted from an administrative board or not, can be upgraded, regardless of the characterization of service. In addition, discharges resulting from special court-martials can be upgraded. The Discharge Review Boards will not consider discharges resulting from a general court-martial.

Here is the Army Discharge Review Board site:

http://arba.army.pentagon.mil/adrb.htm

From what I can see an administrative discharge, which would be an OTH, is upgradeable if certain conditions are meet.

Chad

[cs]

Bob here is some more


Q: Is my discharge automatically upgraded after six months?
A: No. There is no automatic upgrade of a discharge after six months. You must request your discharge be upgraded by submitting DD Form 293 You must provide evidence and supporting documents to show that your discharge was in error or not equitable.

So there is a area in between. An OTH can be upgraded, but it is not something that is guranteed.

Chad

[ishmael]

Hm. It's difficult to know what is going on this man's mind; if he's suddenly caught a conscience about what he sees as an unjust war, or if he's figured out he's a coward and can't face up to his commitment. In either case, he should just take his medicine. If he wants to make it an issue it's his right, but people will listen to him better after he's spent some time in the brig. It seems pretty open and closed. Put him away and discharge him dishonorably. But in this climate I'm sure it's anything but simple.

BTW, people do change, and if this fellow is making a genuine stand of conscience I admire that. The price of that stand is almost always pretty high, and genuine strength of conscience will stand it with grace.

[Bob Smalser]

....From what I can see an administrative discharge, which would be an OTH, is upgradeable if certain conditions are meet.


I've sat on the boards, Chad. "Certain conditions" amount to just about proving your total innocence of all the facets of unsuitability or bad conduct you were booted for. Unlikely.

I'm also sure this lawyer will gladly take your money in return for providing all manner of false hope.

The Army refiled the charges against LT Watada yesterday:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/305035_watada24.html?source=rss

I suspect he'll wind up forfeiting all pay and allowances, be sentenced to a year and a day suspended, spend some time under house arrest, and receive a DD as a PV1. Then his moment in the sun with jobs provided by the anti-war groups will be as short as his newsworthiness, and eventually he'll be just another face in the crowd of limited opportunity among convicted felons. And for the rest of what used to be a promising life. Principles or cowardice notwithstanding, I suspect he's a short-sighted fool either way. Abandon your troops as an officer when they need you the most during a combat deployment, and the Army will surely have your hide. And deservedly so.

[cs]

But I"m not completly mistaken. An OTH can be upgraded, but it may be unlikley.

Best thing is not to get an OTH.

Chad

[Bob Smalser]

Best thing is not to get an OTH.



Or miss movement when 40 troops are depending on you. That's a DD with a long tour.

[cs]

You got that right.

Chad

[Bob Smalser]

You got that right.

Chad

The real thing...David Hackworth comes to mind....makes their political statements and protests after they've done their duty to their soldiers, not before.