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LeeG
02-21-2007, 07:23 AM
makes sense to me. LED bulbs should be getting price competitive to compact flourescents some day soon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6378161.stm

Australia has announced plans to ban incandescent light bulbs and replace them with more energy efficient fluorescent bulbs.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
02-21-2007, 07:30 AM
Seems like a dim idea?

It'll be fun in cars.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2007, 07:34 AM
I NEED the best light available to read anymore...I have some of the flourecent types and still need to turn on very strong incandecent lights to read...such a ban would the the same as condeming me to limited blindness for the sake of some one elses warm, fuzzy feelings

LeeG
02-21-2007, 07:34 AM
I read that some upscale 2008 cars have LED headlights

LeeG
02-21-2007, 07:38 AM
Philip, have you used a "100watt" compact flourescent?, it's the same amount of light as a 100watt incandescent using about 26watts of electricity. There's a range of hues from soft yellow to harsh white. They are stinking expensive and would be a worthwhile place for tax credits/rebates but in the long run it's one of the simple places that allow electricity to be used for other things.

The Bigfella
02-21-2007, 07:46 AM
I heard a woodworker on the radio saying that flouro flicker is dangerous with rotating tools and that he uses sodium lighting. Some of the newer flouros though have flickers in the thousands per second cf the old 100 hertz tubes.

Tommy Bonds
02-21-2007, 07:52 AM
Well Phil they have banned the 6 gallon a flush toilets in most places these days. And after hearing many people complain about lack of flushing powr, there are many options to get the terds to thier final resting spots. I suspect you are just plain too old and self absorded and important a man to make a simple change that will help to ensure the energy independence and survival of ourcountrys childrens.

cs
02-21-2007, 07:53 AM
Fluorescent can be as bright as incadessent and will certainly save energy. They can give off a good white light that is whiter and softer.

Some areas that bother me is that when the talk about incedessent are they also talking about a metal halide lamp? There are some areas where metal halide is the way to go. And what about high pressure sodium bulbs?

When we put lights in a drive thru canopy we use a metal halide fixture which puts off a great amount of light. In fact it can make a drive thru glow and you can use it to help light up the back of the bank and thus reduce the number of pole lights. At your drive up lanes you will typically have a night deposit and more than likely an ATM. These areas tend to be at the back of the bank building or on the left side (as seen from the road). Being as it is in the back and these areas are used a lot after hours, good lighting is a must.

So I wonder are they banning metal halide also? Each bulb has an application that it is more suited for than its counterparts, so "banning" may be a little harsh.

Chad

LeeG
02-21-2007, 07:56 AM
There should be rebates or something though. When I visited my dad I replaced all his light bulbs with cf just so he wouldn't have to replace a bulb or wander in the dark.

Tommy Bonds
02-21-2007, 07:59 AM
Walmart has very cheap prices on the flurescents.

Bruce Hooke
02-21-2007, 08:12 AM
There should be rebates or something though. When I visited my dad I replaced all his light bulbs with cf just so he wouldn't have to replace a bulb or wander in the dark.

Many power companies do offer rebates. When I got some compact fluorescent bulbs recently there were rebate forms right next to the bulb display at the store.

One concern I have with an outright ban is what I would do with fixtures that do not have space for a compact fluorescent bulb.

One other issue I have come across is I have a light that is partway down the basement stairs and is the only effective light on those stairs. The delay in lighting up that you get with compact fluorescent bulbs is a bit hazardous because you are tempted to keep trying to walk down the still dark stairs rather than waiting for the light to come on.

On the other hand, we need to start taking some real action on our energy use and this might be less painful than a lot of the other options. Of course those who believe we can continue our current course will claim that this is just a stupid idea being put forward by know-nothing liberals and greens who just want to control other people's lives.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
02-21-2007, 08:15 AM
... of light as a 100watt incandescent using about 26watts of electricity. ... They are stinking expensive ....

I use about a dozen of them in that size around the house retail in the UK about 1 each (call it $2).

They are cheaper than tungsten filament once you consider overall lifetime costs.

brad9798
02-21-2007, 08:41 AM
At wally world, they are three for about 7 bucks now ... versus 4 for 15 bucks at HD/Lowes ...

Add to that a life savings of about 35 bucks a bulb, and they are more than free ... they pay us.

All outside lights have been converted ... as well as utility room, garage, closets.

The rest are still the old-fashioned bulbs.

That split-second of delay still bugs me ...

Milo Christensen
02-21-2007, 09:07 AM
I sense an up and coming opportunity for people with "stealthy" wooden boats to smuggle light bulbs into Australia.

George Roberts
02-21-2007, 09:19 AM
They take a long time to warm up in the cold - like my shop.

Considering that we have 400watt (measured) of computers on 24/7, there might be other areas for savings.

High C
02-21-2007, 09:23 AM
I have used them for years, the screw in fluorescents. I just wished they made a size between the 13 watt and the 26 watt.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
02-21-2007, 09:28 AM
I have used them for years, the screw in fluorescents. I just wished they made a size between the 13 watt and the 26 watt.

IKEA - has the screw-in 20Watts....

The 26s are hard to find here but I did find a 7.....

High C
02-21-2007, 09:44 AM
IKEA - has the screw-in 20Watts....

The 26s are hard to find here but I did find a 7.....

Ooh, thanks, I'll have a look. Those 26 watters really crank out a lot of light.

Dan McCosh
02-21-2007, 09:57 AM
I guess they are going to reverse the ban on mercury-filled lights??

geeman
02-21-2007, 12:09 PM
We use them on our front porch,And George is right , they do take a long time to warm up in the cold.I find myself actually having to wait until the bulb warms up so I can see before I go out on the porch at night.

Dan McCosh
02-21-2007, 12:22 PM
Does anyone call in the hazardous waste disposal units when you change one, as required by law?

mariner2k
02-21-2007, 12:23 PM
I bought an outdoor energy saver flourescent from HD for a horse stall. It works very well (as advertised) in less than 10 degrees. Its a 27 watt that puts out 100 watts of decent light.

Bruce Hooke
02-21-2007, 12:25 PM
I NEED the best light available to read anymore...I have some of the flourecent types and still need to turn on very strong incandecent lights to read...such a ban would the the same as condeming me to limited blindness for the sake of some one elses warm, fuzzy feelings

Make sure you give a compact fluorescent some time to warm up. I find that it takes a minute or two for the bulb (even inside) to reach full brightness.

Bruce Hooke
02-21-2007, 12:26 PM
Does anyone call in the hazardous waste disposal units when you change one, as required by law?

This issue of how to dispose of them does need to be addressed. Calling in the hazardous waste disposal unit is clearly a bit of hyperbole, but they really should not be going into the landfill and in most towns it is hard to find something else to do with them.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
02-21-2007, 12:37 PM
I NEED the best light available to read anymore...I have some of the flourecent types and still need to turn on very strong incandecent lights to read...such a ban would the the same as condeming me to limited blindness for the sake of some one elses warm, fuzzy feelings

Go get your eyes checked - seriously - if you find that you can only read in really strong light then there is a significant probability that you have an uncorrected focus error - this is easy to deal with.

There are other possibilities.

On topic and being serious for a minute - you can get almost any intensity of light you want from a whole range of different technologies - amongst which the fluorescents are one of the cheapest and most effective, even if not the most fun.

Nicholas Scheuer
02-21-2007, 12:59 PM
Are we so impatient now that we cannot wait for the normal pace of obsolescense?

Moby Nick

paladin
02-21-2007, 01:01 PM
B.S.a hundred watt flourescent bulb does not put out as much light as a 100 watt incandescent........It might if you include the total light spectrum. Flourescent lights have a slightly different frequency spectrum than incandescents....and the same with L.E.D.s....Sittin 15 feet from me I have a very (relatively expensive) expensive system of light meters and spectrum monitors. In the past I have completed designs for flourescent tubes with color corrected gases.....
If you take a cross section of people 30-60 years old and check the responses to the visible light the average will be a situation where the flourescent produces light roughly equal to about 80% of an incandescent...in the useful visible spectrum.

Dan McCosh
02-21-2007, 01:05 PM
B.S.a hundred watt flourescent bulb does not put out as much light as a 100 watt incandescent........It might if you include the total light spectrum. Flourescent lights have a slightly different frequency spectrum than incandescents....and the same with L.E.D.s....Sittin 15 feet from me I have a very (relatively expensive) expensive system of light meters and spectrum monitors. In the past I have completed designs for flourescent tubes with color corrected gases.....
If you take a cross section of people 30-60 years old and check the responses to the visible light the average will be a situation where the flourescent produces light roughly equal to about 80% of an incandescent...in the useful visible spectrum.


I would think a 100-watt flourescent bulb would have something like
4x the light output of a 100-watt incandescent bulb. Don't you mean the equivalant light output isn't in the same useful spectrum?

paladin
02-21-2007, 01:23 PM
yeah, Dan, that's what I was trying to say and operate 3 window programs at one time, drawing parts for a book on boat stuff, answering some teknikle questions, trying to get some conch sent to some folks and get collar on dawg so we can take a trip to vets.....so when I get back I can get a long hot shower, take a bye bye pill, shoot myself in the gut with a new needle and go lie down......gettin' old ain't for wimps sometimes I think I'd slash my wrists if'n I could find a person who could hold the knife steady.....:D :D

BrianW
02-21-2007, 01:34 PM
Since my town runs on hydropower, should I care?

And yes, light bulbs are hazardous waste. We ship all ours to Spokane as there are no hazwaste facilities in Alaska.

Just crazy!

paladin
02-21-2007, 01:39 PM
Yup...and with all that oil ya ship it somewhere else to be processed then pay a premium price to get it back.......

Scott Rosen
02-21-2007, 01:51 PM
Ever try flourscent bulbs on a dimmer?

DJM
02-21-2007, 01:57 PM
B.S.a hundred watt flourescent bulb does not put out as much light as a 100 watt incandescent........It might if you include the total light spectrum. Flourescent lights have a slightly different frequency spectrum than incandescents....and the same with L.E.D.s....Sittin 15 feet from me I have a very (relatively expensive) expensive system of light meters and spectrum monitors. In the past I have completed designs for flourescent tubes with color corrected gases.....
If you take a cross section of people 30-60 years old and check the responses to the visible light the average will be a situation where the flourescent produces light roughly equal to about 80% of an incandescent...in the useful visible spectrum.


I agree, I replaced a 60W incandescent with a 100W equivalent flourescent, ( in my favorite reading lamp ) and it is much harder to read using the lamp. Also the color of the light has an unpleasant greenish cast, even though advertised as "warm". Finally, it makes a quiet buzzing noise, which can be distracting when the house is quiet.


Another thing to remember with the CFs is that they are not dimmable, so the energy savings will be less because the CFs will have to be on full. I have 4 dimmers in my house, all on the lights I use most often, and these are seldom on full.

How many dollars are going to be spent hiring electricians to relace dimmers with switches? How much money is going to be spent replacing light fixtures with those that will accept CF bulbs ( I have 3 in my house that will need replacement )?
And how much damage will all the mercury and phosphors from all these lamps do? They will end up in the landfill, legal or not.

Long ago I replaced most of the bulbs in my house with CF, but these were in closet lights and hall lights that don't see a lot of use.
The lights that see the most use are for one reason or another impractical to replace.

Kaa
02-21-2007, 02:23 PM
I NEED the best light available to read anymore...I have some of the flourecent types and still need to turn on very strong incandecent lights to read...such a ban would the the same as condeming me to limited blindness for the sake of some one elses warm, fuzzy feelings

Check your eyes -- you might have a cataract developing.

I know a person with a cataract -- he can't read in sunlight, but can read under an incandescent lamp. I understand that's one of a classic cataract symptoms.

Kaa

Kaa
02-21-2007, 02:32 PM
There are a few issues with compact fluorescents.


They don't emit full-spectrum light. Generally speaking each type of phosphorus emits a narrow range of wavelengths (a peak in the frequency spectrum) and the more types you have, the lower the efficiency of the bulb. Modern-type CFLs have 3-4 phosphorus types, so the light they emit has 3-4 sharp peaks. That's OK for some applications and not OK for others. Also, some people subjectively don't like the "quality" of light CFLs produce.
The lifetime of CFLs is hugely reduced if they are switched on and off often. They are not appropriate for e.g. bathroom lamps.
They take time to get to full brightness.
They shouldn't be thrown into regular garbage and end up in a landfill.
They have problems when it's too cold (e.g. outside in winter) or too hot (e.g. an oven light).Kaa

LeeG
02-21-2007, 02:36 PM
ok,ok, the lumen output and sprectral distribution of a 26watt compact flourescent isn't the same as a 100 watt incandescent,,but it's a reasonable replacement for lighting up a stairway. What I like is the big "200 watt" replacement c.f. for the garage. At 40 watts it definately puts out more light than the 100 watt incandescent for less watts.

Keith Wilson
02-21-2007, 02:41 PM
I realize it isn't politically correct nor ecologically responsible, but I loathe the color and quality of light from fluorescent bulbs, compact or otherwise. I'd sooner paint the interior walls of my house olive drab. They're OK in closets maybe, but I'll be damned if I'll put the things in the living room or dining room. Eventually they may make one that produces light equivalent to an incandescent bulb, but not yet.

willmarsh3
02-21-2007, 03:31 PM
I have these CFLs all over my house now (about a dozen). Before, I was changing a bulb every couple of weeks - which was getting to the point of being an annoying chore. Now I have maybe had to change one of these CFLs in the past year. For that reason I consider them worth while.

Tom M.
02-21-2007, 03:36 PM
I've been running them since shortly after they became available, but not widely available.

Some points:
-different brands have different spectrums. Try another brand if you don't like the color.
-I use them for reading
-Dimmable compact flourescents are available, but the spectrum seems to get more blue as you turn down the dimmer. I'm not a fan.
-CF's lifetime is shortened dramatically if they are in an enclosed fixture without ventilation.
-Incandescent bulbs are great heaters. I use them often in the shop to dry glue or epoxy or varnish. I hope they aren't banned here.
-My town runs on hydro too Brian. What should I do?
-Most important (something George Roberts mentioned): In the grand scheme of things, lights, even incandescent ones, use very little energy compared to heat, hot water, dryer and stove. changing out your lights is easy to do, but the real difference will be made when people turn the thermostat down to 68F, water heater to 120F, use a clothesline when possible and take showers only as long as necessary. Even bigger savings happen when a community is planned such that a fella isn't required to drive to meet his basic needs. But that's getting kind of off the subject. BUT NOT REALLY:)

Kaa
02-21-2007, 03:44 PM
... and take showers only as long as necessary.

LOL.

Kaa

PeterSibley
02-21-2007, 04:01 PM
All our bulbs are compact flourescents with exception of the one over my reading chair :D.Its also the only bulb in the house that will power my old solar calculator at night .
As for disposal ...not a big problem, we've had one blow in 8 years .Also knocked maybe 40% off our power bill.....worth doing !

As for the overall effect it's a good example of one of the very simple things we can do to reduce CO2 emmissions ..it would be good to see manditory use in high rise office buildings,in conjunction with auto off timers !

paladin
02-21-2007, 04:29 PM
I became involved with CFL lighting about 6 or so years ago, when a company wanted to do advertising at gas pumps and other locations in bright daylight using computer screens.....a typical lcd computer screen is about 250-300 nits (lumens) and the cfl lamps are a major power problem....as you brighten the cfl lamps the color spectrum shifts...the screen gets brighter but the color washes out.....My first project was to develop a cfl that would allow a standard lcd screen to be viewed in direct sunlight, requireing 1200 nits.....
Did the job.....and it is possible to dim cfl's, but not with the standard resistive dimmer...and it is possible to reduce the color shift...but it's the difference between a $5 dimmer for resale at 15 bucks...to a dimmer that retails for $120.00.....

Gonzalo
02-21-2007, 04:32 PM
We changed all the bulbs that stay on a lot, except for the ones on dimmers and one or two where the lampshade holder is too small. Closets, halls and the like we've not changed. All ours are GE brand because that's what they sell in our local grocery store. I like the color once they've warmed up--no more than a minute or so. They are actually just a tad more yellow than the incandescents we replaced.

My wife was skeptical because of the slight color difference and the warm-up period, but she was won over very quickly.

Except for the delay of about 1 second starting and the approx 1 minute it takes to warm up, I have no complaint. The ones on the porch start at all temperatures we've encountered in NC (down to around 10 degrees F.) I've not replaced any in the 2 years or so we've used them.

I punched in some numbers when first I put them on the porch and figured that they should save about $15 over their lifetime, counting power saving and replacement costs if they meet their advertised lifetime. Those are for the 40W equivalents (10W actual.)

I tried a 3-way CF and didn't like it. It didn't seem like there was much difference between the three settings, but it might be that I didn't know to at that point to wait for them to warm up.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2007, 06:32 PM
It may amaze some here but I am capable of determining whether or not the light from the flouros is the same as the light from incandecent...supprised? I am gradually replacing some of the lights with flouro but my reading lights are gonna stay incandecent unless one of you tyrants manages to take them away in which case I will fight you hammer and tongs!

WX
02-21-2007, 06:56 PM
6 gallon a flush toilets! Bloody hell, how much do you blokes eat?
My dunny doesn't use any water, it's a composter.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
02-21-2007, 07:03 PM
http://terrence.marsh.faculty.noctrl.edu/lantern/tilleyal21.jpg

Much more better.

Dan McCosh
02-21-2007, 07:35 PM
6 gallon a flush toilets! Bloody hell, how much do you blokes eat?
My dunny doesn't use any water, it's a composter.


The old toilets were 3 gal., now half that. Of course they don't work, and you have to flush them twice.

WX
02-21-2007, 07:35 PM
Stazzer, What a beast!

WX
02-21-2007, 07:54 PM
Dan I have heard that in the US the water level is near the top of the bowl, whereas here the water level is just above the u-bend. I don't know how much water flush toilets use here, but it surely can't be 3 gallons (15 litres). Maybe people are flushing too much paper...9 squares = 3 wipes is usually enough for most bums :D
While in the subject of toilet behaviour, I've noticed from time to time while sitting in a public toilet, blokes who put a layer of toilet paper down on the seat before sitting on it. This strikes me as obsessive.

Phillip Allen
02-21-2007, 07:56 PM
Dan I have heard that in the US the water level is near the top of the bowl, whereas here the water level is just above the u-bend. I don't know how much water flush toilets use here, but it surely can't be 3 gallons (15 litres). Maybe people are flushing too much paper...9 squares = 3 wipes is usually enough for most bums :D
While in the subject of toilet behaviour, I've noticed from time to time while sitting in a public toilet, blokes who put a layer of toilet paper down on the seat before sitting on it. This strikes me as obsessive.

I think they get that from the grandmothers

BrianW
02-21-2007, 08:03 PM
Brings up a topic... those paper toilet seat covers, and the new auto flush mechanisms.

It's was hard enough to get the paper seat cover properly positioned, with the center flap down and out of the way, and then get 'positioned' without the darn thing blowing away.

Now... just as your ready to anchor the thing with body weight, the darn toilet flushes automatically and if the center flap is in the water, the whole things gets yanked off the seat and down the drain.

Then it's back to square one... :)

Phillip Allen
02-21-2007, 08:07 PM
It's not square one Brian...more oval shaped

paladin
02-21-2007, 08:12 PM
Pie are round, cornbread are square...

Bruce Taylor
02-21-2007, 08:45 PM
Ah, but what kind of lights do you have in your loo?

http://totallyabsurd.com/Toilet_landing_lights_2.GIF

http://www.johnny-light.com/images/bowl-lt1.jpg


A very informative video:

http://easylink.playstream.com/johnnylight/johnnylightsmall.wmv