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John of Phoenix
02-13-2007, 04:34 PM
Too bad. It would have been interesting to see cheney's distain for the process on public display.
Tough to show scooter has a bad memory without him taking the stand too.

The defense rests tomorrow. What's the line on a pardon?

LeeG
02-13-2007, 05:17 PM
jeez, all this about the administration response to a rogue CIA operation determining the basis for Iraqs nuclear program. If only people still believed the ideologically correct American Enterprise Institute certified sources we'd be winning the war.

Why do these people hate the United States?

Garrett Lowell
02-13-2007, 05:19 PM
I think Scooter is the only person who really cares about the outcome of this trial.

John of Phoenix
02-13-2007, 05:33 PM
Funny Garrett. :D
And even he's not too worried. Any sentence will have a signing statement.

John of Phoenix
02-13-2007, 05:40 PM
You're thinking of the old system.

LeeG
02-13-2007, 05:43 PM
Libby is a significant actor behind the ideology of pre-emptive war and the noble lie. I envision him working at a local theater group in twenty years.

Osborne Russell
02-13-2007, 11:21 PM
I caution against counting chickens before they hatch.

Mrleft8
02-13-2007, 11:36 PM
Doesn't he have to be convicted before he can be pardoned?

no.

ljb5
02-14-2007, 12:35 AM
Doesn't he have to be convicted before he can be pardoned?

Richard Nixon.

Caspar Weinberger.

Vince Brennan
02-14-2007, 07:10 AM
The defense rests tomorrow. What's the line on a pardon?

I'll give 8 to 3 for, but as a last minnit thing when the Shrub leaves orifice.

3 to 7 against before then.

Hwyl
02-14-2007, 07:25 AM
Donn, he's clearly a fall guy. Please don't tell me you think something different. If he's not convicted, then Bush could be impeached, I'm guessing you would not think that's a good outcome. The "memory" defence does not even qualify as "lame".

Hwyl
02-14-2007, 07:37 AM
ROFLMAO!!

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Hwyl
02-14-2007, 07:47 AM
Your pepper is so full of it, Norman, it qualifies more as fertilizer than spice.


Donn, he's clearly a fall guy. Please don't tell me you think something different. If he's not convicted, then Bush could be impeached, I'm guessing you would not think that's a good outcome. The "memory" defence does not even qualify as "lame".



ROFLMAO!!


That's it, Gareth. Disagree with you, and I'm automatically blind.

I would not say you were posting a cogent argument

johngsandusky
02-14-2007, 08:26 AM
The whole trial is lame. Libby's not the guy who leaked the name, Armitage is. Plame is not a covert operative, so it isn't a crime to release her name. Libby is accused of not remembering exactly what he said to whom, which none of the witnesses can recall either. If Libby's a fall guy, it's for the prosecutor. He'll be acquitted.

Hwyl
02-14-2007, 08:52 AM
I'm not posting any argument at all! I can express an opinion without feeling compelled to argue it. There's only one reason to argue, and I don't care if you agree with my opinion, so that reason is gone. But then, I'm blind, so you wouldn't accept my argument anyway, eh?


So it's O.K. for you to barrack, but not O.K. if I do it.

Hwyl
02-14-2007, 09:28 AM
bar·rack 2 Pronunciation (brk)
v.intr.
1. Chiefly British, To jeer or shout at a player, speaker, or team.

If you think my laughing at the notion that Bush will be impeached if Libby isn't convicted qualifies as jeering, then go right ahead and jeer back. I'm blind, remember? Why would you care what I think is OK or not?

Donn, as you are aware, I do not think you are blind. i used a metaphor, I thought it was Shakesperian, but apparently is close to this
Matthew 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables: because they seeing
see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand

from the new testament.

I think that the problem with the bad memory defence is:

Scenario 1) It's just not true and they can't think of a better defence.
Scenario 2) It's true and Cheney hired an incompetent.
Scenario 3) It's true and Libby considered CIA operatives to be so lowly as to not commit this to his memory banks.

It seems to me that scenario 1 is the most likely.

Hwyl
02-14-2007, 09:49 AM
The logic would go something like. Someone in the White House "outed" Plame. If it wasn't Libby, then it must be someone higher up. That someone could well be "the unelected".

I concede that at this juncture it's wishful thinking on my part. I still stand by my statement that Libby is the "fall guy" and his conviction is a foregone conclusion.

Gotta have a face to face debate/argument with you some time.

John of Phoenix
02-14-2007, 10:17 AM
Better an Agnew - Nixon - Ford scenario. That way we get Pelosi. :D

johngsandusky
02-14-2007, 12:59 PM
Norm.
And yet, I bet you think Bill Clinton is an honest man and a great president.
I'll wager a nickel that Libby is acquitted.

Bruce Hooke
02-14-2007, 01:10 PM
I'll wager a nickel that Libby is acquitted.

Now there's a man whose willing to stand behind his convictions!

Osborne Russell
02-14-2007, 01:50 PM
A prosecutor decides whom to charge and what with, the jury gives thumbs up or down. In the larger picture, can you dig it --


1. Did the adminstration make a personal attack in order to protect their efforts to mislead the world?

2. Did this personal attack take the form of an illegal blowing of CIA identity?

3. Did the administration attempt to make the attack and then conceal it?

4. Will the Chimpster fulfill his vow to find and punish who did it?

Some people find it difficult to understand that when someone is not convicted, a crime was nevertheless committed, and that many crimes known with certainty to have been convicted are never prosecuted. They think the government is a blend of Daddy and God. The government opposes this concept of itself, but not too strenuously. That might make it difficult to send 19 year olds to die, to the cheers of their elders.

Garrett Lowell
02-14-2007, 01:58 PM
http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/valerie.jpg


Since it's a crime to reveal a NOC agent's real name, I wonder if it's against agency policy to appear in a periodical's full photo shoot.

LeeG
02-14-2007, 02:31 PM
Garrett, does it bother you that the administration avoided inconvenient intel that undermined the assertion Iraq was attempting to buy yellowcake from a country that operated according to international controls, that the assertion was baseless on many levels and that the focus is on discrediting someone who is telling the truth?

On top of that the adminstration was freewheeling to discredit a branch of the CIA that was actively tracking WMD related activity in the middle east.

Remove the personalities from the picture and tell me that the administration wasn't in a sticky situation with no "wmd" showing up and the liberation turning into something worrisome in summer of '03.

Garrett Lowell
02-14-2007, 03:20 PM
Norman, those are your assumptions. I was pondering a real question.

Here's what I would expect to see if someone were publically "outed" as a covert agent: that the person in question's status as a covert agent would be categorically and officially denied by the agency involved-from top to bottom; that the person involved would also deny it while going on the way D-L for a long, long time; and finally, I would expect to keep hearing this same message for years. Particularly if people's lives were thought to be at stake. This seems the quite obvious response (but that's just me).

I'm certain that the CIA has some kind of damage control process in place exactly for these types of scenarios. My guess is that a Vanity Fair photo shoot isn't one of the choices. But you never know-maybe reverse psychology is the way to go these days.

Lee, what does your question have to do with my question? Can you answer my question? Your posts are so obvious and pre-ordained that I wonder why you even bother.

johngsandusky
02-14-2007, 03:55 PM
But Norm,the economy is doing great now, unemployment low, stock market high, deficit falling, so are you going to tell us that George Bush is a great president? And while I admire Lincoln, he got us into a war that many thought unnecessary, and was widely hated. As for Plame, having political operatives within the CIA,trying to influence our government is not good for a free society.

Osborne Russell
02-14-2007, 04:23 PM
Well, it's pretty certain that they made a prodigious effort to try to discredit Wilson.... which in itself is really just politics.

Or so they'd have you believe. "The soft bigotry of low expectations."

john l
02-14-2007, 04:37 PM
"And while I admire Lincoln, he got us into a war that many thought unnecessary, and was widely hated."

where have you been the last 4 years?

"As for Plame, having political operatives within the CIA,trying to influence our government is not good for a free society."

you can say that again. how about the oligarchy running the show, spending our tax dollars? in with you and against it!

"...George Bush is a great president"

he certainly is a great president. not only did he give me a philosophy "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" to understand things, he opened my eyes after 52 years of believing in us propaganda that only lines certain pocket books. the ole trickle ****.

economy? maybe the war and munitions contracters profits are now finally trickling into the economy. dead kids, maimed men, broken hearts, and lots of bad karma comes with it. kinda like drugs,
prostitution and gambling. heck with a gov pumping out a few hundred million a day to iraqi nation building (iraqis and ours-economy) the economy should be better. but is this coldwar 2
thinking?

Osborne Russell
02-14-2007, 05:05 PM
Here's what I would expect to see if someone were publically "outed" as a covert agent: that the person in question's status as a covert agent would be categorically and officially denied by the agency involved-from top to bottom; that the person involved would also deny it while going on the way D-L for a long, long time; and finally, I would expect to keep hearing this same message for years. Particularly if people's lives were thought to be at stake.

As to the latter, don't kid yourself. As to the rest, not necessarily. Once the ID is blown the game has changed and it might be better not to deny it.

LeeG
02-14-2007, 09:53 PM
Garrett, you have presented quite a handful of assumptions as well.

Once she is outed I would think the legality of subsequent outing be moot.

My question has nothing to do with your question, it has to do your opinion about the administrations actions.