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ishmael
02-08-2007, 11:29 AM
I know all the geopolitical stuff: oil, resources, ideology. But the Chinese are sitting back beating the pants off us while we(I mean the whole western schtick) are beating our brains and treasure out against these walls of ideas and ideals

We aren't going to quell these ideas with bullets. Our bullets make them stronger, not weaker.

So, what to do? Diplomacy. Ah, that's worked well over the years. LOL

The US, as a leader of liberalism in the west, and I think we can agree it has been, is in a very precarious position. Fifty percent of our current debt is owed to other countries. In twenty years we've become the most indebted nation on the planet, ever. It means that we no longer have as strong voice as we once had, no matter our ideals or our military might. China, which holds ten percent of our debt, now has a controlling interest in whether or not we defend Taiwan. A situation unthinkable twenty years ago.

Strange times, but everyone's retirement fund looks rosy at the moment, so vote for the latest fad.

The chickens will come home to roost.

TimH
02-08-2007, 11:30 AM
Well said......

PatCox
02-08-2007, 11:40 AM
Too many people denying their omnisexuality; if they'd just go with the flow, they'd be too busy humping everything and everybody to want to fight.

TimH
02-08-2007, 11:43 AM
So whats gonna happen when they take back Taiwan? Our government in its infinite wisdom has said we have a duty to defend them against China. We have already seen the intelligence level of our executive branch genius. It would be an ugly war... thats fer sure.

ishmael
02-08-2007, 11:52 AM
Pat,

Has anyone ever told you you are an adolescent ass? If not, consider yourself told.

George.
02-08-2007, 11:58 AM
... hell, there's a Starbucks inside the gates of the Forbidden City!


Can you imagine a Chinese fast food joint inside the gates of the chateau of Versailles? ;)

Rick Tyler
02-08-2007, 12:03 PM
Can you imagine a Chinese fast food joint inside the gates of the chateau of Versailles? ;)

Given the history of Versailles before it became a museum, a McDonald's would be a huge improvement.

George.
02-08-2007, 12:11 PM
If there is one thing I an quite sure I would never need if I lived anywhere in France, it is a McDonald's. :D

Or, for that matter, a Starbucks. Can't comment on Chinese coffee, though. My point was more about the willingness or unwillingness to let some fast-talking franchise set up a joint inside your national monuments, and what that says about your culture.

PatCox
02-08-2007, 12:22 PM
Well if you want to be that way, Ish, has anyone ever called you a talentless psuedo-intellectual? How about "pompous half-wit?" I am leaning toward just "thin skinned," because it was not meant to injure, just funnin ya, is all.

Kaa
02-08-2007, 01:18 PM
Diplomacy doesn't always work. However, it's free, doesn't drive the country into debt, and doesn't get soldiers killed or maimed.

Really? The Munich Agreement was the result of diplomacy.


Bush arguing that he 'wont negotiate with terrorists' is just plain stupid..

Not at all -- you should look at recent history.

It kinda gets forgotten in the current hysterics, but early and mid-70s were the heyday of Palestinian terrorism in Europe and the Mediterranean. There was a lot of it (note: nobody then decided it was a "war"). And one of the reasons why there was a lot of it is that the European governments negotiated. If you took hostages, you had a good chance of staying alive and flying with your comrades freed from jail and some money to a friendly country, e.g. Libya. And if you screwed up and got caught -- well, your friends would get more hostages and negotiate you out of jail.

That cycle was working while the European were willing to negotiate and it took them a few years to figure out that negotiating was the wrong approach. Once they stopped negotiating and started shooting, the cycle stopped.

Kaa

Kaa
02-08-2007, 01:28 PM
How well has refusing to negotiate been workin' for ya? Maybe the cycle of that class of terrorism has stopped.... but it hasn't stopped elsewhere. Look how successful 'non-negotiation' with Iraq has worked out since the war started....

Refusing to negotiate has been working excellent, thank you. Note that hostage-taking is not in fashion any more.

On the other hand, the Israelis and the Palestinians have been negotiating on and off for many decades and the results seem... underwhelming.

As to negotiating (or not) with Iraq, what does it have to do with terrorism?

Kaa

Popeye
02-08-2007, 01:29 PM
the PM of Canada once told your president he needs to be more of a statesman

i agree

ishmael
02-08-2007, 01:40 PM
Pat,

You're on my list of people I don't trust. You've accused me in the past, heinously, with no provocation or evidence, and now you proclaim a joke. You also aren't nearly as smart as you think you are. I've caught you numerous times presenting things as fact that were in fact political diatribe.

I don't pretend to be an intellectual, I'm not. Mystic and lover are my strong suits. But I'm honest, and when I'm wrong in my affront I try my best to make it right.

You, on the other hand, have been snide without apology, just like Meerkat, but without the excuse.

Good luck.

PatCox
02-08-2007, 01:55 PM
I've never accused you of anything, you lump me in with others there. All I have ever done is throw your own words back at you. You seem to be looking for a persecutor today.

Kaa
02-08-2007, 02:07 PM
It DID work, for Egypt/Israel, and for Libya, and for a number of other circumstances. In each of the circumstances where negotiations DID work, lives were saved. Doesn't that make it worthwhile to try?

Egypt was willing to negotiate because it lost the Sinai in 1967 and because Israeli tanks could have rolled into Cairo in 1973. Try reading Egypt's rhetoric before 1967.

Libya was willing to negotiate because Ghaddafi took a look at Iraq and, pardon the expression, **** his pants.

You seem to believe that trying to negotiate is a costless alternative -- you could gain something, but you cannot lose. My point is that you can lose and do lose on a regular basis. Diplomacy is not a risk-free tactic.

Kaa

ishmael
02-08-2007, 02:08 PM
Pat,

Add blatant liar to the list of sins. You were in the thick of odd accusations. I'm not going into the details, but you are a liar. You don't see it, and that's the worst part of it.

If you'd like to continue this tiff, please do it through PMs or e-mail rather than make a spectacle.

John of Phoenix
02-08-2007, 02:21 PM
Diplomacy - The Iran Option That Isn't on the Table

Paradoxically, to liberalize the theocratic state, the United States would do better to shelve its containment strategy and embark on a policy of unconditional dialogue and sanctions relief. A reduced American threat would deprive the hard-liners of the conflict they need to justify their concentration of power. In the meantime, as Iran became assimilated into the global economy, the regime's influence would inevitably yield to the private sector, with its demands for accountability and reform.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/07/AR2007020702136.html

Don't hold your breath with cheney at the helm.

PatCox
02-08-2007, 02:42 PM
Details matter, Ish, like the detail of whether I ever suggested the particular thing which I know you are referring to when you say you were accused of something vile. I did not do that. Notice that I am not calling you a liar because I am aware people have imperfect memories.

ishmael
02-08-2007, 03:06 PM
Pat,

Yes, details matter. You've never apologized for your foolish accusations. Details. Own what you said, apologize, and I'll recant calling you a liar.

Take it to PM.

LeeG
02-08-2007, 03:52 PM
Jeez Jack, here you've got responses pertinent to the topic and you're back on the kick-me game.

Why war? cuz we like to project power from a distance. Throwing rocks, shooting arrows, bullets, games, ideas all over the new frontier and beyond.

ishmael
02-08-2007, 04:10 PM
Lee,

Okay, okay, I'm a little touchy.

When was the last time you got accused of molesting children and had someone mount an international campaign to call the local constabulary?

Honestly, I have grudges around that. I haven't let them go, though I need to. It bordered on evil, and the perp is just accepted like nothing happened. I want to let it go, but think on it.

So yeah, I'm touchy.

LeeG
02-08-2007, 04:21 PM
If you're still working on sobriety you'll get better at soliciting dialog that isn't kick-me oriented and misconstrued musings of a very personal nature.

The topic of war and geopolitics can be interesting, your inner workings and tribulations on this forum aren't that interesting.

PatCox
02-08-2007, 04:34 PM
I never accused you of that, Ish.

LeeG, do you know any more on that topic, projecting power at a distance? I am fascinated at the human species' love of throwing things. I have often thought this must be instinctive, must have a deep history. We must have been, at some time in our past, "the throwing ape." All those achuelian stone points must have been missiles.

Why else do we all love to see a long pass in football, love to hit a long drive in golf, love to skip stones, love to field a ball deep in the outfield, love to carefully dock with a frisbee, figuring in our heads in milliseconds the complex trajectories of our motion and the motion of the ball, adjusting our motion and direction perfectly so that we can put our hand up and grab the ball in just the right moment and just the right place. All without a thought.

And the instinct to do it is deep; everyone loves to throw a ball, to playt catch, to kick a ball, to hit a ball with a raquet, a bat, a club. The pleasure is deep, very deep.

Ballisitics is in our genes. We must have hunted this way, I wonder if its what defined us as human. To throw, you have to stand up on two feet. To throw accurately, you need binocular vision. To do those ballistic calculations, you must have a big brain. Did we evolve brains in order to hunt by throwing, and then in our leisure time use the excess brain capacity to develop language, logic, technologies, and all the rest?

If you really think about it, the urge to throw things rivals the sexual urge. Some women complain about it openly, "you'd rather play golf. . ." If freud were a typical american male, would it have been all about the sports drive?

LeeG
02-08-2007, 04:45 PM
Pat, no more than a kid who likes to skip rocks or a frisbee. Somewhere when I was a participating parent at a pre-school coop playing with a range of kids that it hit me,,er,,that for the most part boys like to affect things at a distance.

Our culture is seems to project power without having to pick up the pieces, like throwing rocks at a glass bottle. The neocons experiment in Iraq looks like that. They got daddys gun and went plinking.

PatCox
02-08-2007, 04:53 PM
Which would you rather go back to, the first time you held a woman, or the first time you held a BB gun? I think I might take the BB gun. I'd rather go back to my late 20s, as far as holding women.

LeeG
02-08-2007, 05:03 PM
totally different. The connection between me and the target is pretty much the same as when I was a little kid. It's a connection I can make outside of me. A triangle, me, my hand the target.

Holding the girl is a whole different thing.

Regarding war, the oceans are so large we have to throw the rocks real far.

ishmael
02-08-2007, 05:03 PM
Pat,

You don't get off that easy. I don't remember specifics of who did what, though it's in the archives. You accused me of bestiality and joined in the chorus on the child molesting.

It's not a persecution complex, it happened, and if there is any honor left in this world those who made those accusations will apologize. They were the ugliest ever made here, and I'm not over it, obviously.

PatCox
02-08-2007, 05:09 PM
You're right Lee, I probably could get that exact same feeling today if I just picked up a BB gun again.

LeeG
02-08-2007, 05:10 PM
Jack, if you can't find the specifics or remember them then maybe you are mistaken. I read childrens books to my girls when they were small and most of the time I was slightly drunk. On the first attempt at not drinking I was surprised to find an extra page in the book I'd missed,,,after reading the book at least two dozen times. I simply had no memory of reading it even though I must have.

ishmael
02-08-2007, 05:12 PM
Don't force me to look the ugliness up.

LeeG
02-08-2007, 05:12 PM
Funny you mention a bb gun. I've still have the .177 Benjamin pistol I bought from my brother when I was 13.

LeeG
02-08-2007, 05:13 PM
Don't force me to look the ugliness up.


I might

John Most
02-08-2007, 05:23 PM
Lee,

Okay, okay, I'm a little touchy.

When was the last time you got accused of molesting children and had someone mount an international campaign to call the local constabulary?

Honestly, I have grudges around that. I haven't let them go, though I need to. It bordered on evil, and the perp is just accepted like nothing happened. I want to let it go, but think on it.

So yeah, I'm touchy.

Yep been there and had that done to me via Allan Foote and none other than Milo the Christian. Of course there were others who chimed in before the whole thing was scotted.

John Most
02-08-2007, 05:25 PM
Pat,

You don't get off that easy. I don't remember specifics of who did what, though it's in the archives. You accused me of bestiality and joined in the chorus on the child molesting.

It's not a persecution complex, it happened, and if there is any honor left in this world those who made those accusations will apologize. They were the ugliest ever made here, and I'm not over it, obviously.


Dont hold your breath Jack- I quit waiting on apologies from the dwarves long ago.

ishmael
02-08-2007, 05:55 PM
Dutch,

The way of things. If I were litigious some of the accusations made against me are actionable. I imagine WBFs legal counsel looks at this, and wonders if this public forum is worth the effort and insurance.

You, in a just world, simply don't make those accusations. I'm quite ready to punch some noses, but not to shoot.

PatCox
02-08-2007, 11:35 PM
I thought that the posts suggesting that the authorities should be alerted were completely over the line. I am a lawyer; Jack, I was present in those threads and chided you for making statements about loving your cat, I was aggresive in saying you were seeking attention, but I know better than to accuse a man of a heinous crime in a public forum. You are conflating my posts with others. I will go further, not only did I not make any such accusation because I know its actionable, I would not have done so because I do not personally feel that anything you have said indicates any reason to make such accusations. The closest you will get from an apology from me, Ish, is that I will tell you sincerely, I would trust you with my child.

glenallen
02-09-2007, 01:09 AM
...."I would trust you with my child."

So would I, Jack.
Most of us never bought into the perversion crap.
You simply opened a door and a few blundered in. Most did not.

Let it go and move on soon as you can.
Best to you!

ishmael
02-09-2007, 11:42 PM
Well, you could trust your children with me. As much as you could trust them with anyone. The bent,that is there, in some people, is not a part of me.

Why not just say you're sorry for accusing me oddly simply because I like catawumpous's toes. She doesn't much like me looking, but puts up with it. I like, so much, how this feral creature has come to trust me with her toes.

The other stuff was actionable. I don't have the desire, but the lesson ought to be learned. Dan Huisen has some karma to work through with me. If he's listening, let's get face to face and work it through. I promise not to punch you in the nose without a conference.

hansp77
02-10-2007, 12:21 AM
I for one remember quite a few very nasty and uncalled for accusations and implications against Ishmael.
At the time they made me very angry and disgusted at the chorus of people who jumped on and layed their boots in.
The last I recall was on Ismaels thread where he shared some of his early sexual/eroticised moments as a youth.
Personally I found the thread very interesting, and actually quite a decent topic. Maybe not for prudes, or those sexually repressed or scared (don't know how else to call it?)
I shared some of mine, before the pedo accusations and innuendo began, and before Ishmael finally deleted the thread.
Can't remember if Pat was part of that thread though.

Either way, the accusations were despicable.
I thought it very big of Ish to take them the way he did and not make a HUGE fuss about it, a fuss that I think most others who recieved the same accusations would have made (including me).

ishmael
02-10-2007, 12:37 AM
Hansp,

I wish I hadn't been compelled to pull that thread. I spoke of seven year olds playing doctor, exploring a natural dilemma. I remember your post. I'm sorry I pulled it, but that's the post Dan decided I needed legal sanction. Because why? Because I talked about seven year olds exploring?

I've never advocated, or been interested in(save clinically), adults having sex with children. Period. I am interested in our sexual nature, and am not ready to condemn Bogart and Bacall.

Dan has said he grew up in a cult. We must have compassion for this abuse.

PatCox
02-10-2007, 12:58 AM
I remember playing doctor, at 5, with no knowledge of what I was reallly doing, just me and a neighbor girl pulling our pants down and showing each other our parts, the ones we had been taught to be ashamed of, I remember my mother saying that it was dirty, dirty, dirty. But by the time I was an adolescent and really experimenting, I remember no shame about it, despite my parents efforts.

By the time I was really facing decisions, in high school, when sex was really a choice to be made, and not a far off fantasy, I was so respectful of the gravity of the situation, I actually turned away the first opportunity I had to lose my virginity. I had a romantic idealized vision of it, I did not want it to be a casual thing. I actually regret withholding it from the girl who wanted it to be with me. I failed to see it was her choice too, and I took that choice from her. I think we'd have both been better off, with each other, instead of the rebound relationships we wound up losing our virginities in.

bamamick
02-10-2007, 01:08 AM
The WBF bilge at it's very best.

Mickey Lake

glenallen
02-10-2007, 01:20 AM
The WBF bilge at it's very best.

Mickey Lake

That's what happens when a Youngun, I mean, Jungian, cuts loose in a thread. lol

PeterSibley
02-10-2007, 02:28 AM
I thought that the posts suggesting that the authorities should be alerted were completely over the line. I am a lawyer; Jack, I was present in those threads and chided you for making statements about loving your cat, I was aggresive in saying you were seeking attention, but I know better than to accuse a man of a heinous crime in a public forum. You are conflating my posts with others. I will go further, not only did I not make any such accusation because I know its actionable, I would not have done so because I do not personally feel that anything you have said indicates any reason to make such accusations. The closest you will get from an apology from me, Ish, is that I will tell you sincerely, I would trust you with my child.

Ish ...that's not a bad endorsement ! I'd be happy with it myself .It doesn't carry any shadows at all.

The Bigfella
02-10-2007, 05:41 AM
Ish ...that's not a bad endorsement ! I'd be happy with it myself .It doesn't carry any shadows at all.


+1.